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scrubed
15th Jun 2005, 16:57
Contact Counselling of Hosties Grounds Qwantas Crew

Qantas staff must often feel like throttling the odd angry passenger, but instead it seems they are taking their frustrations out on each other.

A pilot and two flight attendants were called home from Los Angeles on Tuesday, after being stood down following a fight at the group's motel in which police are believed to have been called.

The incident has sparked concerns that tight rostering schedules, bigger work pressures and alcohol are leading to an increase in aggressive behaviour.

Yesterday Qantas confirmed a pilot who was suspended three months ago after a wild fight in a Tokyo nightclub that left a cabin attendant in hospital had recently been dismissed.

It is believed another cabin worker is now also under investigation, and has been stood down from work, after an alleged assault in Singapore, unrelated to the other incidents.

The Los Angeles altercation, in which kicks and punches were apparently exchanged, happened in a private lounge area at the Bonaventure Hotel.

Qantas's head of customer service, Lesley Grant, said management had "returned the people involved" to Sydney and they had been suspended from duty.

"We are conducting a formal investigation," she said. "Qantas takes a firm line on any allegation of misconduct and a full inquiry will be conducted."

The head of the international division of the Flight Attendants Association of Australia, Michael Mijatov, declined to comment on the matter.

However, the union's website reveals continuing staff grievances over recent changes in accommodation in a number of overseas ports, including the Bonaventure Hotel, which some workers say is in an unseemly part of town with high crime.

The Tokyo brawl happened over the Easter weekend in March. The incident resulted in a flight being cancelled, while another service was delayed by 90 minutes.
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How could this happen?!?!?! I'm picturing something like this:


"Hi-yeeeeeee..... haven't I theen you thumwhere before....??"

*rolls eyes* "Yeah mate, I flew the f***in jet here that you were on. Remember?"

"Oh YEEEEAAAAAHHHH...!!! I THOH remember that. Thoh would you like to thit down? Can I puth your thtool in for you?"

*SMACK*

*sound of hostie hitting the floor, other one running away in hysterics with a broken nail*



Say, are Qwantas reduced to staying in MOtels now???

LTNman
15th Jun 2005, 17:04
http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/Fight-path-grounds-Qantas-cabin-crew/2005/06/15/1118645872813.html?oneclick=true

Qantas staff must often feel like throttling the odd angry passenger, but instead it seems they are taking their frustrations out on each other.

In the third reported incident of staff-on-staff violence in as many months, a pilot and two flight attendants were called home from Los Angeles on Tuesday, after being stood down in the wake of a fight at the group's motel in which police are believed to have been called.

The incident has sparked concerns that tight rostering schedules, bigger work pressures and alcohol are leading to an increase in aggressive behaviour.

Yesterday Qantas confirmed a pilot who was suspended three months ago after a wild fight in a Tokyo nightclub that left a cabin attendant in hospital had recently been dismissed.

It is believed another cabin worker is now also under investigation, and has been stood down from work, after an alleged assault in Singapore, unrelated to the other incidents.

The Los Angeles altercation, in which kicks and punches were apparently exchanged, happened in a private lounge area at the Bonaventure Hotel.

Qantas's head of customer service, Lesley Grant, said management had "returned the people involved" to Sydney and they had been suspended from duty.

"We are conducting a formal investigation," she said. "Qantas takes a firm line on any allegation of misconduct and a full inquiry will be conducted."

The head of the international division of the Flight Attendants Association of Australia, Michael Mijatov, declined to comment on the matter.

However, the union's website reveals continuing staff grievances over recent changes in accommodation in a number of overseas ports, including the Bonaventure Hotel, which some workers say is in an unseemly part of town with high crime.

The Tokyo brawl happened over the Easter weekend in March. The incident resulted in a flight being cancelled, while another service was delayed by 90 minutes.

Butterfield8
15th Jun 2005, 17:10
Don`t you ever learn Bubba?What colour is your neck?.Lemme guess.....RED!!

surfside6
15th Jun 2005, 17:38
The Captain involved in the NRT fracas is still on the QF payroll.

schnauzer
15th Jun 2005, 18:28
It was worthy of a chuckle though scrubbed...:)

Ronnie Honker
15th Jun 2005, 20:08
changes in accommodation...................the group's motel Obviously Quantas places little value on their staffs' welfare and well-being, if they are using motels to accommodate them on their layovers.

Kaptin M
15th Jun 2005, 21:58
are Qwantas reduced to staying in MOtels now?? Any QF crew care to confirm that you've been reduced to staying in a motel?
On my very first layover in LA, I unknowingly walked into the tail end of a gang shootout in the carpark adjacent to the hotel where we stayed (Marina del Ray), and which provided excellent security - for obvious reasons.

mmmbop
15th Jun 2005, 22:59
HOtel - in Downtown LA. Contrary to what the CC will have you believe, the hotel itself is ok, and the area likewise. It just doesn't have the shopping that Pasadena did,which is apparently the only reason some people covet an airline job......

Col. Walter E. Kurtz
15th Jun 2005, 23:18
In an effort to help company profitability on the YSSY - KLAX route, soon to be moving to accomodation at the back of Compton! :}

Pete Conrad
15th Jun 2005, 23:38
Or how about Pancho's Happy Bottom riding club about 100 mile east of LA?

surfside6
15th Jun 2005, 23:38
Are they issuing you with kevlar jackets?

Howard Hughes
15th Jun 2005, 23:42
Perhaps they have been given accomodation, with customer service equitable with that which they provide......;)

Cheers, HH.

:ok:

surfside6
16th Jun 2005, 00:01
The Carlton Ritz is on the Horizon then?

*Lancer*
16th Jun 2005, 00:27
surfside, didn't anyone tell you our new uniforms have a kevlar fibre inner lining?

surfside6
16th Jun 2005, 00:37
Gee I didn`t know that.Are we going to start slipping in Basra?

Keg
16th Jun 2005, 01:17
surfside, apparently boxing gloves would be more appropriate these days! :}

Interesting comment about the pilot involved in the Tokyo incident!! :eek:

surfside6
16th Jun 2005, 01:51
The Captain involved in the punchup in NRT is still on the QF books.His name and e-mail are still on the CIS contact list.This is the first thing updated when someone leaves or is dismissed.The media gets it wrong again.

ROCKSTEADY
16th Jun 2005, 02:13
Psych testing must be working a dream.....:ooh:

ruprecht
16th Jun 2005, 02:36
Funny, I don't seem to remember this on the psych test:


Pick which one is MOST like you and one which is LEAST like you.

I am the type of person who:

a) likes classical music
b) relaxes easily
c) likes statistics
d) goes the biff


ruprecht.

TIMMEEEE
16th Jun 2005, 03:31
Isn't the Westin Bonaventure Hotel in LA the same hotel used for the filming of The Towering Inferno ???

Now if only Charlton Heston could bring a few old mates from the National Rifle Association to clean up the downtown LA area........

Queenslander
16th Jun 2005, 03:59
Ruprecht,

It's not on the pilot one it's on the CC one............

CC are the type of people who:

a) Likes classical music
b) Relaxes easily
c) Complains about Tech crew
d) Goes the biff
e) Fight in pairs

Multi answers allowed.

Queenslander :ok:

the mustang ranch
16th Jun 2005, 04:20
shades of the truk (NRT)
qf pilot punches out 2 limpristed flt attendents in 1 V 2 smackdown LA .
i can see this thread attracting another 30000 views.
bring it on
-- from the ranch way up north--

QFRegional
16th Jun 2005, 04:36
surfside6

I remember when the NRT incident was being discussed, you became quite angry that someone published the crew hotel name on prune and now here it is in the paper.

the mustang ranch

Could have been a limpwristed pilot, god knows there are plenty of them in QF.

Trashed Aviator
16th Jun 2005, 05:58
Apparently Emirates starts these fights as a way to get Pilots sacked so hopefully they will come to work with them...:ok:

DeltaSix
16th Jun 2005, 06:08
Queenslander - maybe there should be an f.) All of the above..:}


So, who won the punch up ......... did the SO knock them both down ?

Chief Chook
16th Jun 2005, 06:27
That must be ONE helluva CRM course that QANTAS gives its' crews!

*Lancer*
16th Jun 2005, 06:33
Here we go... lets bring on the speculation! :rolleyes:

Its probably not a great idea to post all the details on here if you actually do know them, but trust me, its more media beat up than full-blown drama.

Condensation
16th Jun 2005, 06:38
Hmm, if the fight was between a few business men, would it be on the news? I don't think so! :}

Queenslander
16th Jun 2005, 06:52
QFRegional,

That would be fun to watch 3 limpwristers throwing their handbags around, maybe that was the cause of the problem, a stray handbag knocking over the drink......... :p

Queenslander

frangatang
16th Jun 2005, 06:56
Wasnt it eric idle in one of his monty python sketches that declared rule one to be no pooftahs? Whatever happened.

Ronnie Honker
16th Jun 2005, 06:58
"Welcome aboard Qantas, we hope you enjoy the fight with us"

capt.cynical
16th Jun 2005, 07:25
Oh dear,
The Feral,Redneck,Homophobic Heroes have emerged from under thier rock.
Quick where is the "Baygone"
:( :ok:

surfside6
16th Jun 2005, 07:39
Well said Capt. Cynical

Captahab
16th Jun 2005, 07:57
Q ueers
A nd
N ymphomaniacs
T rained
A s
S tewards

Ahab ;)

jettlager
16th Jun 2005, 08:02
Ronnie Honker,

you are correct as to qf's lack of concern for it's staff's welfare however the accommodation in LA is quite a reasonable HOTEL.

The problems that crew have with it, are it's downtown LA location.
The whole COMMERCIAL/OFFICE area closes outside of business hours with the crew unable to leave the hotel as the area is unsafe at night.

The girls can't leave the hotel during the day to buy water/fruit etc. from the local store without doing so in groups.

Homeless vagrants have on occasion stolen food from the crew eating in the complex food court with the call of "Hey buddy, got a dime" the norm when walking during daylight.

Hundreds of qf crew inhouse at any one time with no option but to "socialise" in the crew room.

Just one big happy family really at qf.

Jettlager

P.S. The rooms are rumoured to cost $25 USD per night....................................

Butterfield8
16th Jun 2005, 08:05
Very Original..Make that up yourself did you?

redsnail
16th Jun 2005, 09:48
Let's see, Qantas uses the GRADE model in decision making.

G. Gather the FAs.
R. Reel them in.
A. Assault them.
D. Deck them.
E. Evade the cops.

Yes, it does work. :D

Ronnie Honker
16th Jun 2005, 10:24
Listen son, when I said always be prepared to go around, I didn't mean with the cabin crew.

Butterfield8
16th Jun 2005, 11:13
This is fodder for the chattering classes,the hoi polloi,the buffoons...those whose lives are so boring,banal and empty that they take delight in others misfortunes,misadventures and grief.I can hear the small yapping dogs now......

TAC On
16th Jun 2005, 11:32
Strange that other company's crews do not express the same insecurity.

Personally, I feel safer in downtown LA than I do in Kings X. Have never heard of any of our crews staying in, due security.

Perhaps the Qute crew feel a bit out of sorts as there are ONLY the homeless accosting them rather than those of varying sexuality that inhabit Kings X, and the thugs in downtown Seedney.

Ahh there's no place like home, eh Warren.

cartexchange
16th Jun 2005, 11:36
I had no idea there were so many sad and twisted tech crew out there until I read this thread.......but then it surely couldnt be our QF tech crew! they would never say these things, would they! it must be all those off shore techies that wannabe QF pilots

Butterfield8
16th Jun 2005, 11:44
These QF technical attendants(T/As)would be sharpening pencils for the State Rail Authority if it wasn`t for the Wright Brothers.Most of them have a large verandah over the toy store and can`t hold their hands up save to buy another beer.Or better still take someone else`s.Preferably a females beer because they might,just might be able to knock her over with their egos.Most have a heart the size of a pine nut,hiding behind that meaningless civil commission.I await the barrage....come on girls don`t let me down.

Chris Higgins
16th Jun 2005, 11:47
Yeah, you're right...so what's wrong with all that?

They must be good at something, you still end up in bed with 'em!

Butterfield8
16th Jun 2005, 11:49
Let me guess,your mum and dad were first cousins.

Iron Bar
16th Jun 2005, 13:18
Sheesh with comments like that no wonder the crew are punchin' the unskilled labour the [email protected]#k out. :ok:

QFRegional
16th Jun 2005, 13:44
Skill? Give me a break, anyone can obtain your "skill" all it takes is for mum and dad to pay for the endorsement.

Keg
16th Jun 2005, 14:36
I'm pretty impressed. This thread took about 30 posts longer than I expected to degenerate into the usual infantile argument about which side of the flight deck door is better than the other! :yuk: :E

Shame that some of you guys can't spot a wind up when you see it and rather than labelling the one or two idiots, decide to tar the entire tech crew scene with the same brush!

I'm starting to see why we keep coming to logger heads and having these clashes. People haven't learnt to take a deep breath and label the behaviour, not the group. I'm looking forward to us doing joint CRM again in the next training year!! :ok:

firepussy
16th Jun 2005, 15:45
It is not about which side of the flight deck door is better.It is about those who have not yet developed normal interpersonal skills and whose life is lived in a self absorbed vaccuum.
Totally unasseptable..go to the naughty corner for.....

scrubed
16th Jun 2005, 16:05
Exactly.

I would expect the Qwantas pilots to be better than this. They are meant to be well-brought-up. And judging from the above comments, there is obviously only a decent level of maturity expected from ONE side of the cockpit door. The front.

Guys, stop smacking the hosties around. The more times they end up decked with broken nails, jaws, whatever, the harder it is going to be to get them to do their jobs properly.

And do you all want your bread rolls buttered on the rim of the crapper? That is what The Help will resort to, one day, to get their own back on you. I hope I'm not there to see it.

Sad state of affairs, man.

As we can see here, some of the hosties are unable to keep their envy from interfering with their ability to just do their job as EVERYONE expects them to.

This comment about the "Wright Brothers" sums up the whole stinking attitude back there. What kind of ignoramus would write something like that??? I mean..... for starters, the poor fool has totally missed the point that SHE ALSO would be looking for a new (waitressing) job if it weren't for the Wright Bros.

And yes of course, the Wrights were the only ones who ever thought of powered flight.... :rolleyes: Jeezuz Kriste, no wonder hosties have such a bimbo rep!!!! :rolleyes:


Anyway, ladies, try to see each other as co-workers instead of punching bags or sky gods. Can't we all just get along...???

What's with all this petty jealousy, hosties?

And my fellow pilots, stop looking down your noses at them. And bashing them.

handgun fellashio
16th Jun 2005, 16:06
One group were employed for their technical expertise.The other group were employed for their advanced interpersonal skills.The interaction between the two since 911 has been generally nil.This does not bode well for critical CRM situations.A development QF would be wise to recognise and remedy ASAP. As long as it is cost neutral of course.

scrubed
16th Jun 2005, 16:10
You spelt fellatio incorrectly. Why are "you people" so hung up on sex etc? No wonder no one takes you seriously.

Anyway haven't you already posted on this thread under a different name?????



I don't know about "advanced" interpersonal skills. You have to be more "advanced" than a caveman, I suppose.

Many were employed because they speak Japanese or other languages and were less than a size 14.

handgun fellashio
16th Jun 2005, 17:44
The incorrect spelling is both deliberate and necessary.Sent you a PM

av8boy
16th Jun 2005, 18:47
As nice as the Bonaventure is, Id be bored out of my skull having to stay at 4th and Figueroa in downtown. And I agree with jettlager re the limited offerings. Thats no way to decompress.

Other crews do express the same insecurity. Even the locals express the same insecurity...

Whatever happened to staying at the Palos Verdes Inn or elsewhere in the South Bay? Also, I seem to remember Qantas crews in Santa Monica so very long ago... Although I do understand that these decisions are made pretty far up the food chain, other carriers have found reasonably-priced hotel contracts in better neighborhoods.
:confused:

sinala1
16th Jun 2005, 20:11
other carriers have found reasonably-priced hotel contracts in better neighborhoods.
That rules out Torrance.... one of our crew had a gun held to her head in the hotel lobby toilets!

:mad: :{

Crusty Demon
16th Jun 2005, 21:23
Were just less than a size 14 at the time they sent their applications in - generally there ain't too many QF crew less than size 14 now.

Chief Chook
16th Jun 2005, 22:10
I don't see a problem.
1 ship
1 Captain
1 First Mate
1 crew

The cockpit door is there for security - it isn't a line of demarcation.
Whether it's open, or closed, the Captain is the commander of the ENTIRE aircraft at ALL times - unless incapacitated, in which case the First Officer then becomes the boss.

Too easy.

tinpis
16th Jun 2005, 22:26
I can recall a skipper telling an old AN boiler he owned the whole ship.
Ended up in a hellava sh1t fight .

cartexchange
16th Jun 2005, 23:16
post deleted, incorrectly worded, best to drop the subject!

The_Cutest_of_Borg
16th Jun 2005, 23:41
(Post edited in the spirit of tech/cabin crew relations and the hope that one day we can see each others point of view..)

cartexchange
17th Jun 2005, 00:00
borg

yes youre right, my post was incorrectly worded,
I have PM you.
I would never condone such behaviour.

capt.cynical
17th Jun 2005, 00:13
Now then boys and girls all stand close together and stay there and dont move, while I fetch my bucket of COLD WATER !!:{

handgun fellashio
17th Jun 2005, 06:08
When everone was on the same level..707 days..the level of animousity was minimal.In comes the jumbo..trouble brews.911 happens..no one vists the flightdeck.....trouble multiplies exponentially.Not all pilots are dinosaurs,not all CC are charming either.I don`t know what the big deal is.If the dung hits the fan we have to be on the same page otherwise everyone loses...their lives.

Angle of Attack
17th Jun 2005, 08:51
Yes, I think in general most guys dont look down at all on the FA's, its a self imposed opinion they have, and there are some techies that look down on the FA's. Who the hell cares? I dont , I just go to work, take my dough and go back to a REAL life!. They can like me, hate me, be jealous of me, look down on me, whatever, it doesnt bother me.Many a time I;m told "The computer does all the flying, you sit there all night and just watch, etc etc. And I think too many guys take the bait on this. It is just a completely uneducated opinion, shouldnt take it out on em, just educate them. All I know is I treat each person as an individual and don't tar with one brush. As for this incident, jeez, if this is a major gossip point, well obviously your life sucks, go and do something uselful with it, I know that I am. thats my 2 cents worth, (sorry maybe more if you collect your allowances! haha! )

bannanaman
17th Jun 2005, 08:53
Here the violence between crews aint confined to mainline either. Apparently a bit of a dust up in the regionals at a farewell last weekend. Heard a F/A got a beer bottle to the head. WTF is going on with that?

Pinky the pilot
17th Jun 2005, 12:15
I sit here and I read of my fellow Aviation professionals at each others throats, backstabbing, bitching and generally bringing each other down to gutter level, and I despair!!:{ :{
A person far wiser than I shall ever be once said
A house divided cannot stand.
And the various Airline Management Authorities read these forums (and don't try to fool yourselves; they really do read these pages!!) and laugh.
Don't worry about management types, worry about our own! We will destroy ourselves!

You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.

Lodown
17th Jun 2005, 13:28
Jilted lovers. Qantas flight crew, cabin crew and techies in a three way spat on centre stage. Watch all the action.

TAC On
17th Jun 2005, 13:45
Un f:mad: ing believeable.

The pooftas and the narcissists duking it out.

Unseemly undignified unprofessional and unjustifyable.

I shakes me 'ead

handgun fellashio
17th Jun 2005, 15:54
Is that the rattling noise I hear?
You are a bit behind the times dear...Qf CC is populated by 70% real women.You are assuming that the Flight Attendants(a generic term) involved were male.
No... they weren`t dykes either.

Omaha
17th Jun 2005, 16:27
Sounds pretty much the norm for here. :\

PureRisk
17th Jun 2005, 16:29
Half of all this sh#t comes from the fact that CC think they are equal to Tech crew in skills and job statis.... THEY ARE NOT. and They know it.!!! The tech crew know it and so does everyone else.
The difference is that now a days, all the Union crap telling CC that they are equal (in terms of responsibility on the AC too) is that they believe it, and hence have such little respect towards the Tech crews and what their (cc) true job responibilities are. Years ago CC who acted in any such disrespect would be stood down immediately.
A bit more old fashioned disapline would do the world of good I think and prevent such incidents from happening.

handgun fellashio
17th Jun 2005, 16:43
Ahhh yes the neolithic voice of 1962.(1862?)
Hear you have got a great head for radio..so why don`t you pull it in?
Bring back the cat o nine tails!Swine..beat them to within an inch of their lives.
Who do they think they are!

Sunfish
17th Jun 2005, 22:30
In my humble opinion, the trashing of cabin crew by pilots, engineers by pilots and vice versa is directly related to one simple cause - lack of recognition of your worth by your own Board and senior management.

In fact they have regularly indicated they all despise you as lazy, overpaid layabouts who are unfit for anything much at all and are not part of the future of Qantas. Your opinions are worthless and are not considered relevant.

Policy and direction will be set at Board level with no inputs from underlings. You are a nothing person and will be treated accordingly. We have complete and total contempt for you. We care nothing for your future. You are an embarrassment. We would rather use cheap offshore labor which works harder than you do for a lot less money. Besides the girls and boys look prettier than you do anyway.

Seriously guys and girls, people work for one thing RECOGNITION. Recognition of their contribution, recognition of being part of a winning team. The posts on this thread, especially the angry ones, are all talking about this one thing really. You aren't getting any recognition from management, instead they devalue your contribution, so some of you have to try and find that essential recognition your selves by asking your workmates to give it to you, but since they themselves aren't recognised, they have nothing to give. Result frustration and anger.


Now QF was rated No.2 airline in the world a few weeks ago. Where is the celebratory email to all staff from GD thanking each and every member from the bottom of his heart for their outstanding contribution to this stellar performance? Where is the tee shirt and hat? Where is the bottle of Penfolds Grange for everyone? Where is the champagne and celebration...........and recognition?

Where is the revelation that since the current team have produced such an outstanding performance, both in performance and in profits, that no further outsourcing, foriegn staff hiring, or job cuts are considerd necessary?

My bet is its nowhere to be seen, except in a one paragraph article in your next staff magazine, containing one sentence of qualified thanks from Mr. GD. My guess is that the Board thinks they did all this themselves.

Sunfish

Amateur Psychologist and unprofessional pilot.

HotDog
17th Jun 2005, 23:26
I guess he is pissed off for not beeing first.:}

Kaptin M
18th Jun 2005, 03:27
I reckon you're close to the money, Sunfish.
* the erosion of the the Captain`s authority;
* the degradation of the conditions ALL front line staff;
* the paring of staff to below reasonable levels;
* an unproportional increase in the numbers of "managers";
* a disproportionate increase of upper level managements' remuneration & conditions vs other staffs`;
* a decrease of the inflight "amenities" available to pax (with the cc`s copping the resultant abuse);
* higher stress levels of staff from management pressure to perform, or have their jobs outsourced.

handgun fellashio
18th Jun 2005, 03:33
By George I think he`s got it!!

tow-truck
18th Jun 2005, 04:07
Pure risk and the rest of the rabble,
I have been reading with great amusement at the way the drivers see themselves,,,, you really think that your're indispensable....
Ask yourselves one question! what happened after the 89 dispute? what kind of jobs did you get?
Answer= Some got jobs overseas
some set up lawn mowing businesses
some got jobs in the sand removal business
some even bought cabs and started driving them!
I apologise to the majority of tech crew that are excellent at their jobs and don't have such inflated ego's.
the above is for the selfabusers.....

Oh yes and to the idiot what wrote here that CC see themselves as equals: just remember that everyone has a role to play in QF from the cleaners to load control to management, YOU alone do not control or run the airline.

Dont forget no one is indispensable, just remember 1989......lawnmowers

:ok:

Mr. Boeing
18th Jun 2005, 04:37
Rumour has it that GD has referred to the pilots as "softcocks". It is nice to see the respect......

Spotlight
18th Jun 2005, 06:22
The silly thing owner operaror 'Tow Truck Driver' is you are probably right. Most of the time the pilots get screwed. Guess what though, desk bound jockey's like you don,t know what you are missing!

ROCKSTEADY
18th Jun 2005, 07:41
'Soft Cocks'....lol.

Hey, I heard a rumour his next Book is gonna be called..,

'Memoirs of Soft Cocks and Flight Decks'

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Any one know where I can buy the:

Old Skool Tight Arse CEO's, Demoralizing and Intimidating Management Techniques and Political Influence Properganda -Quick Reference Handbook.

Im thinking of starting a fresh 'all new' Australian Airline.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Have fun, were all in it together whether your in Qantas or not. We are Australian and have to learn to take it on the chin properly when we give it to each other. Although, I do have a sneaking suspicion that things will be getting worse at Q quarters before they get any better. You guys at Qantas will loose a few people over the next couple of years. You will loose Recognition and Rewards for Contributions until he can cannabalize his Airline to compete with others. We will all be on B scale sooner or later, but in a few years given the current climate, all the whinging should be over, and all the recognition given back.. :ok: Dont burn any bridges I say

Oz Ocker
18th Jun 2005, 08:04
Crickey towie, maaate, did yer 'ave ta raise that 1989 thing again?
But they did ground the airlines fer a few months, didn they, even tho they had a full complement of all the other staffers.

They mighten be inddispensable, but if yer aint got any pilots whose gunna get ya orf the ground?

(Just remember 1989...no-one flew until they got some pilots)
:ok:

Be seein' youse round.

tow-truck
18th Jun 2005, 08:14
oz.
read my post.......
everyone has a role to play....
the majority of techhies are good guys...
Im directing it at the self important ones........actually I find it disturbing some of the attitude,

I feel sorry for the pilots that have to sit on the flight deck for hours with these idiots, thankfully they are the minority.


:confused:

PS .... remember that they ended up getting the pilots! not a problem there......

handgun fellashio
18th Jun 2005, 08:21
When commercial aviators lay down tools there are always military pilots to fill the breach.If memory serves they did so with that fracas back in `89.

Chronic Snoozer
20th Jun 2005, 06:51
Like they had a choice Handjob.

handgun fellashio
20th Jun 2005, 07:52
Agreed Snoozer...just a response to Oz Ocker`s post.

SIDSTAR
23rd Jun 2005, 22:19
Wot? No Sheilas to kick about then!!

OperationsNormal
24th Jun 2005, 04:20
Saw an Eastern guy at YSSY yesterday with a good few stiches across his face !

That extra time in the bush teaches you to drink harder and punch on better than us !

ratpoison
24th Jun 2005, 07:36
The beatings will continue until morale improves. This saying works for Emirates management, so I guess it can work for Qantas as well.

frangatang
25th Jun 2005, 10:21
understand a BA crewmemeber has recently been biffed at the truck in NRT. Who did it?

imabell
28th Jun 2005, 02:49
the bonaventure was a pretty nice hotel when i was there, not a motel.

jettlager
28th Jun 2005, 03:41
The word upline suggests that a particular second officer entered the crew room way more than, " three sheets to the wind".

He seems to have taken offence to the point of a punch being thrown at being asked to tone down his language and behavior given that mixed company was present.

jakethemuss
28th Jun 2005, 13:09
Bullshit,

I was there tonight and you are absolutely talking crap.

Cook the Man some eggs!! Hostitute!!!!

Jake

funbags
28th Jun 2005, 17:06
Mid 63 - BS!!

The guy wasn't even close to age 20. Stop making crap up.
And theres no more complimentary drinks.

At least make up something that may be true.

handgun fellashio
28th Jun 2005, 19:15
It is these type of responses(last 2) that are indicative of the mentality that causes these little punchups."Hostitute"haven`t heard that one for about 10 years.
Perhaps they should raise the drinking age to about 50.Wiser men(hopefully)with less testosterone(bravado)

request deferred
28th Jun 2005, 21:18
I think one of the problems is the underlying resentment cabin crew has towards Qantas and the erosion of their conditions.

Cabin crew are embarrassed by decisions they made in agreeing ( via the EBA'S ) to the changes thus screwing themselves... They thought bringing in cheap overseas labour would see all the crappy trips going to the Thai's and Kiwi's and get themselves a few extra bucks pay rise too......it's a hard and painful truth.

Chris Higgins
28th Jun 2005, 21:44
Wow..sounds like such a happy place.

Mr.Buzzy
28th Jun 2005, 22:06
Sure does Chris,
Now where do I do the course in passing stage one? How much does one have to pay to be psychometrically assessed by these clowns?

The psych system sure seems to be doing a fine job of making sure unstable, unintelligent, boorish morons are weeded out.... or is it supposed to select them?...... or weed them out?...... no select them?.....no weed them out....select them....weed them out.... oh what time do we knock off today?

Rollup rollup for the greatest gravytrain on earth! Hurry final season coming soon!

bbbbbbbbzzzzzzbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

handgun fellashio
28th Jun 2005, 22:18
My dear boy...you are talking about management of course.Lets not get confused with these myths about Cabin Crew.
REQUEST DEFERRED what is a "crappy trip"?>As far as I am concerned there is no such thing...dear boy.

request deferred
28th Jun 2005, 22:40
A 'crappy trip' is defined as one which pertains to low or limited allowances, is daylight ( have to face the pax and not just tend to a sleeping flock) and where cultural differences have you treated as their personal servants......so to answer you question, Mumbai, Joburg and Manilla.

handgun fellashio
28th Jun 2005, 23:26
...and the Thais go to none of those destinations and are therefore doing none of those "crappy"trips that you previously referred to.
Personally I am not embarrassed about anything..overseas bases have been around for years.It was only a matter of time before we got them.
The anger is about expecting to be able to deliver an excellent service and not being provided with the resources to do so.Anger at management saying pull your belts in while we loosen ours.
Dixons wage has risen 148% in the last 18 months.Running a company on incentive bonuses is not efficient as the Americans discovered about ten years ago.

DutchRoll
30th Jun 2005, 05:02
So we have 2 tech crew in the last couple of years involved in a punchup, or attempted punchup, plus one where there is doubt over whether or not he started it.

That's three. Three out of about 2500, or roughly 0.1%. Aw heck, let's be creative and round it up to 0.5% (which is a significant markup over that sort of total).

I'm not excusing it, and in 2 of those cases I personally reckon the tech crew guy deserves to be sacked, but geez some of you are full of it. 2500 techies and there are bound to be a few tossers, psychometric testing or not. But I've seen more than a few lazy, obnoxious, arrogant, wouldn't-work-in-an-iron-lung FAs out there too! How about the girl who, for whatever heinous atrocity was committed against her, refuses to talk to any techies, even when she's working on the UD? Feels the need to call downstairs and get someone else to do it! Excellent (and sadly, not unexpected) display of maturity.

mr hanky
30th Jun 2005, 05:55
Still seems techies think they have the right when the hotel puts on complimentry drinks that they can pick up a bottle and head back to their room with it. [email protected]#$kin tight [email protected]#ses

Well of course we are, guilty as charged...as long as the accusation's not coming from cabin crew. (slam, click, crack open the Delsey full of instant noodles)

Captain.Q
30th Jun 2005, 06:48
Here we go again!!

EPIRB
30th Jun 2005, 14:46
So Mr. Buzzy. We can take it that all Virgin pilots are perfect then can we?

Metro Boy
30th Jun 2005, 20:14
I can think of at least two straight away that are far from perfect.

Scooter
1st Jul 2005, 03:06
Sounds all a bit farcicle to me.
The number speak for themselves........2600 techies and shock horror, 2 incidents of fisticuffs and everyone is an expert on psychometric testing!

Mr Buzzy,as far as organisations go if VB ever got to the size of QF I guarantee you that there would be a percentage of pissed off individuals.
Who knows Mr Buzzy,you might be even whining about VB when it comes to promotion time or they cut wages/conditions.

As for flight attendants,I can think of a few thousand that would give it all to get a job with QF.
A recent career survey found that amongst twenty and thirty somethings in Oz the job as a F/A came out on top for females.

Says alot about the fellas I suppose!!

permFO
1st Jul 2005, 03:07
Even with all the pressure AN staff were working under in the months leading up the stab in the back I don't recall the staff taking it out on each other. This must be music to the ears of QF management. Its a bit like watching the Labor party self destruct.

Enema Bandit's Dad
1st Jul 2005, 05:47
Now Metro Boy, that's not a nice thing to say about Mr. Buzzy and DJ737.

DutchRoll
1st Jul 2005, 06:51
permFO, most of the ansett guys I have spoken to had little if any inkling of what was actually coming (or at the very least, ignored it & hoped it would go away) and remained blissfully unaware of the perilous situation they were in until it blew up around them.

Yet another meaningless comparison.

Chris Higgins
1st Jul 2005, 14:41
I really think that any rationalisation for violence in the workplace belongs in a group therapy session somewhere and not being imparted as normal behaviour based upon statistics.

The fact that these overnights now have a confirmend pattern of alcohol consumption, followed by altercations that have become physical, it is time for QF management to take a hard look at employee conduct while in rest at the bequest of management and CASA.

If we get a further escalation of this behaviour, and somebody suffers a permanent disability...or even worse, can you imagine the media frenzy? And the court system will have a field day!

Qantas would be well advised to review their own liabilities with respect to a hostile workplace and duty of care.

Angle of Attack
3rd Jul 2005, 02:23
This is going nowhere, get a train to Santa Monica or elsewhere for god sake.....

Chris Higgins
3rd Jul 2005, 03:16
Nah, you're right, there's nothing that can be done about it. They've all been psych' tested by that very reknown recruitment process. Let 'em beat it each other up, we'll just continue to rationalise the whole thing away. That should fix the problem.

Mr.Buzzy
3rd Jul 2005, 22:32
Epirb and your mates,
No, Im sure not all VB pilots are perfect. Nobody said they were, especially themselves!

bbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

permFO
5th Jul 2005, 11:58
Dutch Roll - I agree no-one saw or anticipated the final outcome with Ansett but nonetheless we were operating under the constant pressure of a business in a state of flux with a management relying on the staff goodwill instead of addressing the real problems (sound familiar). The point is that during that whole period of time I did not witness AN staff start to take things out on each other. I contrast this with what I did witness in QF where I saw a -400 Captain being physically restrained from venting his anger on a S/O who had the audacity to speak up about his views of the seniority system!

Transition Layer
5th Jul 2005, 12:09
Mr.Buzzy,

How much does one have to pay to be psychometrically assessed by these clowns?

Nowhere near as much as you "clowns" have to fork out for your shiny new 737 endorsements!

TL

Ronnie Honker
5th Jul 2005, 13:20
permFO, "a S/O who had the audacity to speak up about his views of the seniority system!" - it seems to be those with the LEAST experience, have the MOST to say.
If you are accepted into Qantas, then you start at the basement, simply because you might have a "lot" of experience, but NONE of ot is in the Qantas system.
If you don't like it - or cant accept that - then buzz off to another company that also thinks YOU are the greatest thing since sliced bread.
But in the meantime, shutthte****up, and do your time, like everyone else has had to.

Spotlight
5th Jul 2005, 14:38
Well said Ronnie. Pity it has to be said, but there you go!

Butterfield8
5th Jul 2005, 20:53
Here we go ..an internet punchup.
Testosterone is always inversely proportional to intellect.

Mr.Buzzy
5th Jul 2005, 21:21
Nowhere near as much as you "clowns" have to fork out for your shiny new 737 endorsements!

So TL, how much does Daddy fork out for a "shiny new" cadetship these days?

bbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

EPIRB
5th Jul 2005, 21:30
About the same as it cost you to learn fly Mr. Buzzy. Cadets are only an extremely small percentage of QF pilots.

permFO
5th Jul 2005, 22:52
Ronnie Honker - You have just eloquently expressed the violence inherent in the system.

Ronnie Honker
5th Jul 2005, 23:01
If you can't stand the heat, my delicate petal, then move to another room.
In the meantime, wait your turn and zip it, in spite of your self-perceived importance.

Sunfish
5th Jul 2005, 23:05
And all of you have been psychometrically tested? Dear me.:O

permFO
6th Jul 2005, 00:53
Ronnie your argument seems to be "I had to put up with it so do you". I would hazard a guess that your experience with the seniority system has not been a happy one but you are now in a comfortable position. My point was that the altercation(s) which seem to be a regular part of the Qantas social calendar are unique to the airline. Your angry replies and attempts at brow beating me into submission are just a reflection of that culture. BTW I think the internal surveys conducted by the Company and the Association suggest that seniority is a big issue within all pilot ranks not just Second Officers.

Capt Fathom
6th Jul 2005, 01:55
Seniority Systems are an impediment only to those who 'want everything, and want it now'.
And unfortunately, we are to blame. We are the ones that have raised a generation of spoilt brats!

Bolty McBolt
6th Jul 2005, 02:46
I KNOW I AM GOING TO HAVE MY HEAD BITTEN OFF FOR WRITING THIS...but

As an observer of both parties TC and CC. I think this punch up stuff has been a long time coming.(Not sure why) I have seen at many stations around the world where tech and cabin crew will not even look at each other yet alone speak on disembarkation. The tension was as thick a winter fog and for mine this goes back as far as 1995. In both professions there are many wankers (as there are in engineering) but the majority are good people focussed on doing their job.
The bigotry built up thru stereotypes by a few bad apples cannot be constructive for either party/ pay scheme/ profession.

TC and CC both occupy the same workspace no matter which side of the ballistic proof door you reside. QANTAS likes it when they can divide two parties. Some would say the CC are coming under the microscope or pressure more than they deserve but you can bet when the TC are targeted and the conditions for one group have been eroded its a "lay down mezaire" to apply the same rules to the other.

Perhaps next time the good people mentioned above sees or hears some divisive acts they do or say something about it before the situation deteriorates on a global scale.
It refects on all of you and you do not need to give GD any ammunition when negotiating for conditions while trying to maintain the platform that you are professionals.
My 2 cents

Ronnie Honker
6th Jul 2005, 03:36
My sentiments precisely, Capt Fathom!
And I'm sure that same "me know" generation will squeal like stuck pigs when the next (younger) generation see how they are also being unfairly held back from realizing their full potential :rolleyes: and grab it off the permFOs.

Youy are correct, permFO, I did have to put up with it, and so will you, because that's the system YOU accepted when you applied for the position.
Fortunately (for me), I have been at the crest of the wave as far as bidding (rosters and types) went, although I also had my fair share of the other end of it as well.
THAT is one reason why the seniority system works for EVERYONE, and GUARANTEES that everyone will get a go, eventually.

Yes, I'm absolutely certain that "the internal surveys conducted by the Company and the Association suggest that seniority is a big issue within all pilot ranks".
I have worked under both systems - there is no scheduling advantage for the company by not having a seniority system - it SHOULDN'T matter WHO crews what and when, as long as it is crewed, however is IS all about the company having ABSOLUTE control over EVERY aspect of your life. Because your roster and type also impact on your personal life, not just the time you are on duty.

Keg
6th Jul 2005, 03:55
C'mon Ronnie, your points have been done to death a thousand times on crewroom. Not a lot of people believes them- not even those of us with a projected final seniorority in single digits and who were also on the crest of a waye!

The 'you know what you accepted so no changes' is misguided at best and naievely false at worse. Why do we bother negotiating to IMPROVE things at all then? Perhaps we should just shut up and take everything the way it is now. We don't though, do we. We negotiate and try and improve things. What frustrates you is that there are a number of crews out there (both senior and junior) who want to improve something that you disagree with see as your 'right'. You attack them as the 'me-now' (or 'me-know', I wasn't sure if it was a typo on your behalf or not) generation and whatever other labels you can throw in order to discredit them. Unfortunately, whilst you try and label those of us with the opposing opinion to you, your own label becomes very clear.

Wake up and smell the roses. No one is saying 'throw out seniorority' (a read of the survey results will show that) but a lot of people are saying that it can be more fair and equitable for ALL OF US.

permFO
6th Jul 2005, 04:09
"Fortunately (for me), I have been at the crest of the wave as far as bidding (rosters and types) went, although I also had my fair share of the other end of it as well.
THAT is one reason why the seniority system works for EVERYONE, and GUARANTEES that everyone will get a go, eventually."

So for the blokes who are at the trough of the same wave its tough luck and put up with it. It doesn't follow that everyone is guaranteed a fair go. Depending on where you fit in the system which to a large degree is dictated by chance you may never get to the ranks of the super senior who can dictate their lifestyle. If seniority (for rostering,not promotion) is so fair why wasn't it part of the Australian Airlines agreement? All thats being suggested is a fair and even distribution of the available flying. The only airlines who still persist with it are the legacy airlines and a lot of what they did for the last 80 years is no longer working.

The main point once again though is it is this issue along with other big IR issues facing QF that is leading to a lot of tension and anger between the very groups that should be uniting. Trotting out the same old tired rhetoric and going the biff if people don't agree just allows managers to get away with what they currently are getting away with.

Transition Layer
6th Jul 2005, 05:00
Mr.Buzzy,

So TL, how much does Daddy fork out for a "shiny new" cadetship these days?

I dunno, you'd have to ask a Cadet that question.

TL

DutchRoll
6th Jul 2005, 05:23
OK, I understand what you were saying now permFO, but I think that would be an exception rather than the rule, or it certainly is in my experience anyway. It's a bloody big company - there are a few idiots on all sides unfortunately.

And how did this get onto the 'seniority' debate????

king oath
7th Jul 2005, 05:31
Slightly off topic but a giggle non the less.

I heard through the grapevine that a certain off duty CSM on staff travel turned up at Broome last week to travel to Melbourne in a state best described as "tired and emotional".

Unfortunately, after pissing off ground staff and the crew she got to leave her nice business class seat and stay behind. Not too good at Broome at 1am with no accommodation.

mustafagander
7th Jul 2005, 09:35
King Oath,
that is not really funny at all.

Why can we not look after our own and smother little indescretions?

Grow up and join the real world.

scrubed
7th Jul 2005, 09:48
Hahahaaa..... very funny. She was offed, just as she woulda done if some other pushy, rude pax came aboard "her" aircraft another day.


I hope she took the opportunity to grow up, herself, and re-join the real world. That woulda been a helluva a wake up call.

Maybe she got a bollocking when she got home, too.



PS that sort of pathetic behaviour is usually reserved for the raving, mincing, flouncing Oxford St queens.