Rafale Programme: The real thing

[Gegene]

In response to those who dare writing about our forces and capabilties without actually doinf their home work.

Have a nice read.

http://img295.echo.cx/img295/1227/source2zg.jpg

Source: Assemblee Nationale Loi de Programation Militiaire 2005.

Some interesting facts there:

1) The confirmation of the plan for 294 aircrafts, 60 for the Marine Nationale.

"The Military Programmation Law (LPM) forsees the delivery of 294 aircrafts, among which 234 for AdA and 60 for MN."

2) In 2015, there will be 120 Rafale in service in the AdA only.

"At the horizon 2015, Rafale must represent 120 of the 300 AdA combat aircrafts, while MN will have receptioned their 60 units."

http://img300.echo.cx/img300/4953/aircapabilities2kr.jpg

3) The developement cost: I don't know if there have been a more recent developement in the cost of the Rafale programme but these figures put it at a very low developement cost compare to concurent programmes:

"Since 1999, the State procedes to the acquisition of Rafale by global orders, this allowing for economies, the industrial having a better view of his scheduled production plans and the states geting a lower price in return. The total cost for the programme is estimated to €35,106 billion at the 2004 adjusted rate, inclyuding developement, which account for € 10,636 billion, among which € 8,803 to the state account."

http://img294.echo.cx/img294/6246/aircapabilities020ls.jpg

4) Standards: The M at standard F1 is actually undergoing a rotating upgrade to standard F2, which have been cleared for service last year by CEV Cazaux, allowing the delivery of the first AdA F2 Rafales at Mont-de-Marsan for OPVAL which is followed by the formation of the first AdA squadron, the 1/7 at St Dizier.

The standard schedule is as following:

"In conformity to the LPM, the first AdA Operational squadron with standard F2 will be formed in 2006.
Five aircrafts will be delivered to AdA (Mont-de-Marsan) in 2004, then ten in 2005, and the second Rafale squadron to standard F3 will be formed in 2008. For the Navy, the first flotille of nine Rafale standard F1 was declared operational in 25th June 2004, while the flotilles to standard F2 and F3 will enter service in 2007 and 2010.
In Fev 2004 a contract was passed to DGA for developement of the F3 standard for an amount of €659 millions."

http://img232.echo.cx/img232/3023/calendrierrafale7ay.jpg


ALL Rafale standards are actually budgeted, meaning all improvements given to Rafale in the future will be extras.

This doesn't includes the developement of 60-90 Kn M 88-3, which is funded separatly..

The OSF is NOT included in the order for 59 Rafale standard F2, there is a technology reserch programme (mentioned as studies) going on which have for goal to replace the existing OSF units with a newer, more performant version. This version specifications are apparently tailored to the performances and engagenment envelope of METEOR AAM.


http://img95.echo.cx/img95/2585/calendrierrafale021uw.jpg

€85 billion have been allocated to the developement of the second RBE2 AESA demonstrator, it is clearly dedicated to the Meteor AAM.

The cost saving measure resulting form the cancellation of the N version (Marine Nationale two seater) is estimated at €80 billion.

In the 2005 LPM, Rafale acount for €1,605 billion credit and €753,02 millions programme payement authorisation.


[IMG]http://img33.echo.cx/img33/3286/adadfleet20154yb.jpg

[Tourist]

Its amazing how the paperwork produced by the french about a french aircraft in france for the french is all positive.

Until it has seen combat its nothing!

[c-bert]

Ha! A french aircraft see combat?! Only when the Algerians invade.

[Gegene]

2Tourist

Man you DO deserve your callname!!! (At least to my AdA standards).

Rafale Ms spent their OPVAL in combat Operation, called Damocles, onboard CDG during the Afgan campaign.

Not in a Air-show or in a hangar trying to keep up with the concurents developements, or with their pilots confortably seating their fat lagger bellies behind a keyboard writing whatever; their usual you see?.

I'm sure you were mystaking for your air force/navy RAF aircrafts weren't you? Better check before posting another example of bad paper work and bad press..... Anything else?

[Fg Off Max Stout]

You Eeeengleesh peegdag peeluts, seeting comfortablement wiz yor fat, lagger bellees. Feché la vache.

Interesting post by the way.

[Gegene]

2c-bert


I was wondering... Why the Algerirans, then its stroke me, this is the standard for the opponents your airmen have been bashing up for the pat 20 years so, there little you know about real though air warfare.

This is where the AdA ad MN are showing themself consistently better than yours, wherever you are from...

Smile for the camera.

[ORAC]

Whilst the FAF have had to take on the awesome Ivory Coast Air Force. Oh, and Chad...

We both fight who we are sent to fight, and we haven´t been sent to fight France......yet.

You seem intend on trying to start an argument, why? I´ve worked with the FAF on may an occasion. Had a good time on detachments at places like Drachenbron. I respected the FAF lunch hours especially.

Chalk and cheese how we operated at times though. They were largely conscript, heavy turnover, meant they had to operate differently and were disinclined to operate overseas. Obviously changed a bit now.

[Jackonicko]

Gegene, mate.

I commend your enthusiasm for your country's aircraft, aircrew and industry. That's admirable.

Your command of English is way better than most English people's grasp of French. I salute you!

But you seem completely unable to differentiate between wheat and chaff, and between the propaganda put out by Dassault and reality. Tw@t!

Most and Almost?

Dassault's making a huge fuss about delivering the first F2 single seater to the Armee de l'Air. The Eurofighter partner nations already have nine Block 2 single seaters and two Block two single seaters. There are 46 Typhoons in service in total. 46. Count 'em.

Eurofighter GmbH has an export order for 18 aircraft already. Rafale hasn't.

Typhoon was the preferred choice of the Singapore air force on operational (not political, not economic) grounds. The aircraft outshone Rafale in the air-to-air role, demonstrated superior radar performance, much better reliability and availability, and achieved supercruise more easily. It was able to climb out on task without having to make tortuous turns to avoid Malay airspace. Eurofighter didn't have to send a separate Mirage 2000 to demonstrate the standard of radar they say will be available. Eurofighter didn't lie about when Meteor will be integrated on their jet.

Eurofighter has 638 aircraft ON CONTRACT and a production go ahead for 420 or so.

Typhoon will have LGBs (the weapon of choice in recent conflicts) long before Rafale does.

The Aéronavale is supposed to have 20 jets operating off the carrier with SCALP and tanks, and has just nine, and with engines that don't let them operate at anything approaching max weight.

EC 1/7 is already late in getting its aircraft and will be primarily a conversion unit, just like No.29 Squadron, JG 73, and the other initial Typhoon units, all of which have been operational for ages.

After all the political delays to Typhoon (and there have been loads) Rafale should be far ahead, and it's not. No.3 Squadron, RAF, will have an operational QRA commitment in June 2007. EC 7 may get there first, but not by much.

The Rafale is a pretty aeroplane, and it's a remarkable achievement for a single nation (like Gripen), but it's compromised by its need to operate from a carrier and its close coupled canard makes it less agile, while Captor out-performs RBE-2, and the ASRAAM/120C-5 combination offers greater lethality than Mica/Magic. Typhoon has higher Alpha limits, lower minimum speed and higher maximum, higher g limits, and better acceleration.

Rafale is a great Crusader/SuE replacement, and will be a better Jaguar replacement than Typhoon, short term, but do stop spouting such utter crap, please, and do desist from such infantile abuse.

[SSSETOWTF]

Gegene old chap,

What on earth are you talking about? Who's been 'daring to write about the French forces and capabilities'? Are you fantasising about some huge Pprune conspiracy to slag off the French? Cause I just can't see where you've got it from. Given your love of churning out documents, I'm sure you can produce 20 links to the appropriate pages where all this french-bashing is happening. Most people here seem to have a healthy respect for the FAF, myself included.

Again, given your obsession with documentary evidence, I'd be curious so see your hard facts to show that all RAF pilots have fat lager bellies and live behind keyboards..... and exactly what are you basing this random statement that 'This is where the AdA ad MN are showing themself consistently better than yours'. In what way? What are you on about?

Regards,
Single Seat, Single Engine, The Only Way To Fly

[Jimlad]

Guys

Gegene (aka Thunder, Sampiax, GN, Gogo) is a troll with a severe paranoia that France is being slagged off by all and sundry and he is the sole voice of reason in this mad world.

I particularly liked the quote about "my ADA standards" as the guy was a lance corporal in the ADA during the 1970's on his national service:D

Any chance we can pull the plug on the troll?

[Fire 'n' Forget]

Very well put Jacko' every AoA answered. :ok:

No doubt he will be back with more propaganda from a French Beano soon :rolleyes:

[Magic Mushroom]

Gangrene old chap,

I flew on ops over Afghanistan on E-3D AWACS during the time the CDG was deployed and I can assure you that the Rafale never appeared on the ATO once.

Your SUEs appeared every so often, and your E-2Cs shared the 'AEW South' (basically acting as check-in for ac transiting up and down the 'driveways' to the 'Stan') orbit over Pakistan with their USN counterparts, but Rafale stayed very close to mother.

Regards,
M2

[CAC Runaway]

Just try doing a search on Google (http://www.google.com) for French Military Victories and pressing the I'M FEELING LUCKY BUTTON. Very funny :ok:

[Gegene]

No Dassault propaganda here but the French assemblee Nationale schedule and figures here...

I leave this for concurents this is ONLY informative. Enjoy the difference

[BEagle]

A beentoot, Monsieur Quequette!

[Gegene]

2 Jackonicko
--------------------------------------------------------


"But you seem completely unable to differentiate between wheat and chaff, and between the propaganda put out by Dassault and reality. Tw@t!"

Please , un peu de retenue! We're NOT familly mate, you can't even come close to read FRENCH apparently no wonder you mystake ME for your bros.

I don't DO exagerations, lies and feed myself with propaganda, at the view of what you write it's your natural diet, i'll eave this to your kind, more to the point i make intellectual honnesty a number one in my priorities.

This helps keeping my SA up a old (AdA) pilot trick....

The doc above is the official gouv's not Dassault, so go on, get an education and try to keep it.



Most and Almost?

You still can't get the difference betwenn OPVAL and trial and acceptance squadron in a Westen European air force? What kind of professional are YOU? Lightweight.

All Typhoons are still in OPVAL and NONE of them have the a2g capabilities to come close to be comparible to that of Rafale F2. Only those who spent the past four years living in the Eurofighter planet can think otherwise. I'll advise a little more passion about aviation and less of what you have.

We will win Singapore; only because the aircraft is better, not because Eurofighter sais it is. Too bad you can't discernate between overdone propaganda from any side.

Are you the funny who wrote this bag of bulls called Eastern smile?

"Typhoon was the preferred choice of the Singapore air force on operational " ---- Balh-di-Blah, excuses and we heared these before in two occasions when Rafale left Typhoon behind in Korea and Holland. And when the Dutch disclosed the results, my god it wasn't pretty for your lit' toy.

Divide your fancy numbers by that of the partners for a laugh.

T"yphoon will have LGBs (the weapon of choice in recent conflicts) long before Rafale does."

Actually, Rafale f-2 is cleared for PAVEWAY II, AASM, SCALP-EG etc since June last year. I realy hope you're NOT writing in some good mags for a living, if it is the case, you're a con.

This place Rfale standards opf developement well in front your little marvel, do you still don't know what pod it's going to use?

Is it still going to be fitted on the center pylon untill someone find a proper solution? Do you read anything else than Mickey mags?

The delivery schedule is a financial choice by the gouv, not because of a fault in the FCS grounding the aircraft, and a crash due to a design fault.... I can elaborate fully documented too but it would be cruel to hurt you more than this. Pus obviously you hae little idea whatyou're about at this level. Unfair.

"EC 1/7 is already late in getting its aircraft and will be primarily a conversion unit, just like No.29 Squadron, JG 73, and the other initial Typhoon units, all of which have been operational for ages."

You sure would beneficiate no end to learn to tell the truth and inform yourself, with the noices Eurofighter does at every opportunity you'll KNOW when the first Typhoon squadron will be full Ops. Not just yet.

After all the political delays to Typhoon (and there have been loads) Rafale should be far ahead, and it's not. No.3 Squadron, RAF, will have an operational QRA commitment in June 2007. EC 7 may get there first, but not by much.

Actually by a lot more than you say, Sept 2006 or earlier.

And as i was mentioning intellectual honnesty, are these dealy only political?

The Rafale is a pretty aeroplane,...

etc. TRUTH: It outperforms Typhoohnmate.

Whant an example? Carries 1.5 its won weight, have a higher fuel fraction, a longer range, 5 wet hard point instead of 3 carrying 2000 Kg each (appart for the M) a higher playload by quiet a margin, have ween flight tested to AOA passed 100* and 40 Kt negative speed etc. Typhoon brings very little improvements to Mirage 2000 in terms of payload, only 500 Kg and flies at lower speed, what a perf!!!

Rafale is a far greater design than Typhoon by a fair margin, we can get into aerodynamics if you wish, you'll get a bleming headheach at the way you talk about it, it's not that you understand any of the two aircrafts that deep do you?

QUESTION: Is that all you guys got?

I thought this was a PROFESSIONAL forum, you see when i was a kid, flying with some serious customers, the kind you'll go carpet when adressing them, test pilot in chief (CEV Bretigny) and you can't realy make any impression on me with this sort of horse manure.

You got to get a lot better and smarter. Improve your SA guys...

Dream on and have a nice day.

Ho i forgot, Rafale C supercruised during its first flight, wouldn't be that a perf if you didn't know that SNECMA procedure it NOT to use AFB during the first sortie.

Ignorance is the mother of all FCUK-UPs.

We're laughing.

[Tourist]

I apologise for my inability to correctly translate the following phrase into French. Perhaps Gegene could help me out?
"Cheese eating surrender monkey"

[Jackonicko]

Gegene.

The Aeronavale did get an understrength frontline unit into service before Typhoon. Their under powered engines prevented them from carrying heavy loads. But credit where credit is due - it was the first new generation fighter squadron in Europe, outside Sweden. The Navy did a great job.

But when we come to the air forces, the Rafale is far behind.

No.17 Squadron is an operational evaluation unit, formed in mid 2003, but No.29 is an OCU, and has already trained the first batch of OEU pilots and OCU instructors. The RAF has amassed 1,500 flying hours and has fired ASRAAM. It has 14 aircraft in service. The partner nations have 46, in total. No.29 Squadron's French counterpart will not stand up until September 2006.

The first frontline squadron, No.3, will already have stood up in May 2006, four months earlier, and will be declared in the air policing/QRA role in mid 2007, and an air-to-ground capability will be declared at the start of 2008.

"All Typhoons are still in OPVAL and NONE of them have the a2g capabilities to come close to be comparible to that of Rafale F2." The priority for Typhoon is the A-A role, my cheese eating chum, whereas the Rafale priority is A-G. You'd therefore expect each type to be ahead in its particular area at this stage. The difference is that Rafale will never have the same A-A capability as Typhoon, thanks to its configuration, MMI, avionics, weapons and radar, whereas when Typhoon does become an A-G aircraft it will trouce Rafale except in range. Moreover, the Rafale F2 has no air-to-ground capability yet, f*ckwit, it's only just been delivered, and is not yet in service except for training and evaluation. There is no customer requirement for PWII on Rafale yet and it won't be integrated until there is, just as there is no four nation requirement for Storm Shadow on Typhoon yet.

"Do you still don't know what pod it's going to use?" In what was called EOC fit, the choice of pod has not been decided. It doesn't need to be decided. The later the choice is made, the more advanced the equipment will be. For the Block 5/8 austere ground attack requirement the weapon will be EPW, and the LDP will be Litening 3.

Rafale does have a higher payload and a longer range than Tranche 1 Typhoon - it has to - it's a fighter bomber. It doesn't have Typhoon's MMI, DVI, radar performance, sensor fusion or NCW capabilities, and it doesn't have the same aerodynamic performance. In service, Rafale's cleared envelope is smaller than Typhoon's. Rafale C may have supercruised on its maiden flight in Europe, but the type failed to supercruise in Singapore the first time it tried, even though the team waited for a cool evening. Typhoon supercruised in that part of the day that Mad Dogs go out in. First time.

I'm now just back from Paris, where I spoke to a number of potential customer air force pilots, many of whom were impressed by Rafale as a fighter bomber - but all of them expressed the opinion that Typhoon was a more capable fighter aircraft, and all were blown away by the DVI, sensor fusion, and intuitive MMI, as was the French military Rafale pilot I spoke to....

Both Dassault and the Armée de l'Air confirmed that EC 1/7 won't even start flying operational type sorties until September 06, and made it clear that declaration would follow about one year later. They could be lying, of course. It's not impossible, in view of their outlandish claims about the Meteor integration date on Rafale, which will rely on the use of a time machine, since integration will be complete before the weapon is available to anybody, let alone the platform third in the queue for integration.....

I'm not surprised that you're dismissive of airshow performances. Rafale's has been mediocre at Paris, especially compared to the Typhoon routines flown by Alenia's Chelli, and the new AMI bloke.

[Bing]

I apologise for my inability to correctly translate the following phrase into French. Perhaps Gegene could help me out? "Cheese eating surrender monkey"

I think it's fromage mangeant singe de l'reddition. But I was never that good at French

[Magoodotcom]

Me thinks the French guy has a little weenie and is trying to compensate in other areas! :hmm:

Can someone explain in layman's terms what 'sensor fusion' is?:confused:

Cheers :ok:

[Neeps]

Just try doing a search on Google for French Military Victories and pressing the I'M FEELING LUCKY BUTTON. Very funny

Oh a different note, try 'liar'

[Gegene]

SSSETOWTF

Dear SSSETOWTF; i wasn't refering to the RAF pilots (on the lagger bellie) but the funnie (c-bert) writing about Algeria. (like he knew anything about it)...

As far as i'm concerned, we have some very good RAF exchange pilots with the AdA enjoying the Mirage 2000s and even having flown combat mission over Kosovo.

I doubt very much that this guy (the abovementioned) is fit enough for something else than keyboard fights or he was passably drunk when he poped in the topic.

Better they were. Posting the higher PGM score in Kosovo. Not too shabby. You see, we're fade up with the "propaganda" mate, and in reality when the going get though, not vs an inexistant air defense, we loose little and score high. And this is not propaganda but history.

As for the doc, it was destined to the one who wrote some on the subject of Rafale and its programme without knowing any about it. Just rubbing his nose in it.

The guy is so good he won't even figure where it is coming from.... Not Dassault.

So again, i leave the propaganda for beginners, "les Bleus" like the one pretending to know me and tried to pull ranks on me, ( i think he ressent my response and still hurt a little).

For the type; we have the term Mulot (a small rodent) more appropriate to his level of education, maybe in 30 years he will be mature enough to get over it.

As i understand what he wrote was by pure frustration and despair and he looks like he won't be able to recover any time soon, i should have chosen Surcouf for callsign, coule.

About the attempt to inform the "galery", better waste my time feeding my goldfish with caviar for more results, as this is a depserate case and no cure can help it.

Funny i never see this level of ignorance in French forums about Typhoon nor the Brits. I wonder why is that?

Let me guess, we're maybe more genuinly interested in aviation and a lot less in the bull factor; did you read the big show from Pierre Closterman? (Spits Mk 5/Mk9 Tempest 5 etc, very good RAF stuff), or have you visited the best ever European Museunm at Duxford?

I'm pleased to see you like our food. Maybe if you're good enough you'll have a go in a AdA Bs and will know what reality is like elsewhere than in this forum.

If you are as i suspect a flyer, try exchange and them make this bunch education, it could save their life one day as their SA seems to be a little in the low side.

I just have a question though, how come that it's always the lower ranking "officers" and the less experiences who have the "nose up" attitude we don't know since the revolution?

I saw a lot higher ranking, lot more qualified and experienced, they doesn't need the bull factor, they command respect naturally.

Again no mentioning you personnaly. Thanks for the effort.

2Magic Mushroom, there too the callsign is spot on.

Do you really think you thought me some sunny?

They've done exactly what they were tasked with, appart for the basic and usual exageration, you're right they were tasked with protecting the egress....

[Jimlad]

Am I alone in not understanding a word of what was said there?

[Gegene]

2Jackonicko

"Their under powered engines"

Prove it: Give us the TWR of the J-200 and M88s. And while you're at it, both aircraft TWR would do too.....

You REALLY can't stop yourself going overboard to try to make your point.

"But when we come to the air forces, the Rafale is far behind."

"The RAF has amassed 1,500 flying hours and has fired ASRAAM."

A little less than the 12F wit hten aircrtafts and for AAM Operational firing (not trials that is) it was February for the 12 F Rafales.

Also, it couldn't have been the Royal Navy mate, since Typhoon design made sure it couldn't be navalized, to us it doesn't really matters if its the "pingoins" or the airmen who got there first, to potential customers atheir i.e. Singapore MinDef certainly noticed this fact.


"The first frontline squadron, No.3, will already have stood up in May 2006, four months earlier,"

In reality, Typhoon is two years behind in both service entry and type developement.

There a lot less need for the AdA to replace what they have and if they choosed the EC-17 it's because they are the SEAD specialists, having the experience of AS 37 Martels, they will be useful with AASM which is in production and will be used for the role.

There again you just show exageration and ignorance of thre French forces. Failed to impress me again.

But whatever you say, you still can only keep your head firmly and deeply burried in the sand and refuse to see reality as it is...

With both a2a and a2g capabilties, Rafale F2 is the only true multi-Role in Europe right now, by the way, RBE2 allows for simultaneous use of both modes, how about Typhoon's?

I was wondering, how long have you been bunkering in a ship sainte barbe? Where do YOU get your infos from?

" my cheese eating chum, whereas the Rafale priority is A-G. You'd therefore expect each type to be ahead in its particular area at this stage."

I respectfully requieres that you stop these familiarities untill you get famous for more than inacuracies, exagerations and other non-relevant style exercises, plus again, we're NOT family:

Rafale priority a2g? Whoa!!!! you get yourself a huge scoop there, try to sell it to AFM and see what they have to say about it.

"The difference is that Rafale will never have the same A-A capability as Typhoon, thanks to its configuration"

It already outperforms it in a2a, particularly in terms of manoeuvrability at all speed, but you couldn't inderstand why since instead of aeros you apparently learned politics.

Question, does Typhoon performed the Cobra manoeuvre any time during flight testing? No it recovered from a commandable 70* AOA which is still 40* less.

Learn you stuff mate you're entering a mine field without the right stuff not to be blown off your pound and i meant knowledge in your case.

"whereas when Typhoon does become an A-G aircraft it will trouce Rafale except in range!"

Well i hope you still believe in Santa, hard, because
apparently you have no idea about aircraft design etheir.

"Moreover, the Rafale F2 has no air-to-ground capability yet, f*ckwit,"

Are you trying propaganda there? You're not too good at it.

F2 standard have been cleared in June by the CEV after the full integration of all weapons. How about Typhoon?

"it's a fighter bomber"

OK i understand, you're straight from the trench war technoogical age. You'd be better writing about British railways than modern aviation since the notion of multirole is still alien to you, not to mention omni-role.

"since integration will be complete before the weapon is available to anybody,"

You know some suny? It's not too difficult to integrate a standard design these days, expecially as it will be flight and fire tested in time for that.

"I'm not surprised that you're dismissive of airshow performances. Rafale's has been mediocre at Paris, especially compared to the Typhoon routines flown by Alenia's Chelli, and the new AMI bloke."

Only flyers ( or those with a genuine interest on the subject) knows that there a two ways to fly a fighter at an airshow:

The "show" way; for tourists like you, and the military way to demonstrate usefull capabilites to the customers.

We're past the age of comparing our toys the way you do, it's about how we use them and what they really can do, i bet it's the same for the Koreans, the Dutch and Singapore MinDefs.

What are you doing for a living? Anything to do with aircrafts?

I wonder if you would not be better off with some more pedestrian activities.

Thanks for untertaining me. Better luck next time.

[Jimlad]

"What are you doing for a living? Anything to do with aircrafts? "

I think you'll find he's a professional military aviation journalist who is a highly respected member of this forum and who has long since proven his credentials. You on the other hand are a troll.

[flipflopman RB199]

http://home.comcast.net/~gearjammer/Cheese_Eating_Surrender_Monkey.gif

[MarkD]

could it be... a French WEBF! :D

[Toxteth O'Grady]

Jimlad

Am I alone in not understanding a word of what was said there?

If you read it with a John Cleese Holy Grail faux Gallic accent, as in;

"Yeur motheur was an 'amsteur and yeur fahtheur smelled of elderberries, ah faht in yeur jeneral deereckshon. Fetchez la vache!"

it makes eminent sense. NOT, but it's a much funnier read.

:cool:

TOG

[Gegene]

"I think you'll find he's a professional military aviation journalist who is a highly respected member of this forum and who has long since proven his credentials. You on the other hand are a troll"

You think realy Lad? does it still hurt so much?

I know exactly what he does for a living, problem is : at the vierw of what he writes, he knows little about aircrafts and even less about other's air forces (or is he inventing PLAIN?).
Looks like an habbit between you. two, same college?

Try to make an impression on someone else you're far to tender a steak for me sailor.

And as for me being a troll, give us any evidences or soon everyone if going to think you lost it. as i suspect you did.

[Jackonicko]

Jimlad,

Thanks, mate!

Gegene, my dear Snail munching, garlic-perfumed chum! If you think that your mud slinging will make me stop using outrageous familiarities when you've made it clear you don't like it, you are very much mistaken. If I thought it would upset you enough, I'd even harp on about France's outstanding military history, and make jokes about collaborators...... And I know we're not family. None of my family have had to be that nice to invading Germans, and certainly not twice in 25 years.......

I may be faymooss for "inacuracies, exagerations and other non-relevant style exercises." In fact make that I AM famous for all of the above. But it's better to exaggerate and to be occasionally inaccurate than it is to be deluded, mad, and completely wrong.

I've been professionally involved in this business for 21 years.

I'm a UAS trained PPL.

I have 'stick time' in a dozen fast jet types.

I've sat in the powered up cockpits of Typhoon, Rafale, Su-35, Su-27SKM, MiG-29M.

I've 'flown' the Typhoon active cockpit and been briefed by several pilots who've flown Rafale and the Rafale 'rig'.

I've interviewed evaluation pilots from three nations who had flown BOTH types.

NONE OF THIS MAKES ME MORE THAN AN INTERESTED AMATUER.

I suspect, however, that it makes me slightly more qualified to comment on the aircraft than you are.

Perhaps you'll state your credentials? You've perhaps served some Foie Gras to Serge Dassault? You swept the street outside Dassault's factory? You've read Rene Francillon's articles in Air International? You believe every word you read in Air Zone or Air Actualités? You've done your national service as a conscript in the Armée de l'Air? You've spent way too much time on internet spotter forums talking $hite with enthusiastic but ill-informed aircraft buffs?

"With both a2a and a2g capabilties, Rafale F2 is the only true multi-Role in Europe right now." Dassault have taken some pretty pictures of Rafales carrying mixed air-to-air and air-to-ground loadouts, sure. And Scalp has been very successfully test fired. But the aircraft is still some way from being in operational service in the air-to-ground role.

How many air-to-ground weapons did 12F drop in Afghanistan? None. Why might that have been, do you think?

Eurofighter have flown aircraft with two and four Paveways, and even with a single 2,000 lb LGB as a highly asymmetric load. That doesn't make the aircraft an A-G aeroplane yet, does it?

"RBE2 allows for simultaneous use of both modes, how about Typhoon's?" Um, no it doesn't, or not in the radars in service in F1 and F2 standard aircraft. It promises to do so in a future iteration and it needs to do so, because the aircraft's poor MMI makes it essential (have you watched a pilot operate Rafale? They have to work like one-armed paper hangers, changing modes with those little hand controllers). They have no equivalent to the Typhoon's intuitive mode changes and DVI.

"It already outperforms it in a2a, particularly in terms of manoeuvrability at all speed, but you couldn't inderstand why since instead of aeros you apparently learned politics. Question, does Typhoon performed the Cobra manoeuvre any time during flight testing? No it recovered from a commandable 70* AOA which is still 40* less."

The Cobra is almost tactically irrelevant in the Eurofighter/Typhoon context, especially since Rafale's FCS will not permit it to be performed in service, by service pilots. I will happily concede that Rafale has a higher cleared service Alpha limit than Typhoon, at the moment (29° compared to 27°) and until Typhoon's next software release). But that's in stable straight and level flight. If you're so breathtakingly well informed, and if you don't mind revealing a Rafale deficiency, perhaps you'll comment on rolling manoeuvres at high Alpha? Or perhaps you won't. :rolleyes:

"You know some suny? It's not too difficult to integrate a standard design these days, expecially as it will be flight and fire tested in time for that."

MBDA don't think so, and it's their missile. The Meteor will be integrated on Typhoon and Gripen first and then on Rafale. France has lied to Singapore and promised the weapon before it will be available even on its first host aircraft. There is not a snowball's chance in hell of the weapon being integrated on Rafale by the date promised, nor of production rounds being available to either France or Singapore.

Only flyers (or those with a genuine interest on the subject) knows that there a two ways to fly a fighter at an airshow: The "show" way; for tourists like you, and the military way to demonstrate usefull capabilites to the customers."

There's very little that can be shown at an airshow that has any bearing on operational capabilities. Eurofighter's HAVV roll does show an ability to point the nose accurately away from the velocity vector, however. And if an airshow routine demonstrates low speed handling and agility at low altitude, then the fact that Typhoon's display is more impressive than Rafale's indicates an advantage, not vice versa. Rafale's displays at paris were so lacklustre that I wondered if there was some temporary limitation in place, since M2K displays have done so much better than Rafale did.

If you can't do any better than to spout such silly propaganda, do us a favour, my little cauliflower, and knob off.

A bientot.

[PPRuNe Pop]

Gents, there is only one way this thread can go now - downhill as fast as you want it to go. But........what the hell is it all about? Damned if I know. I do know that we are starting to get abusive and that is as far as I am allowing it to go - for now.

Anyway, I will close the thread and if either Jacko or Gegene want it opened again convince me. :confused: