Sorry to ask the question - where do I begin?

[Mark Noble]

Hello all...

I'm a 23 year old guy living in Dublin and I currently work as a radio presenter. I have however, had the pilot bug for about 4 years now and a recent flight to NZ on a 747 has dragged it all back again.

Radio is a fairly hard game to get into and I had to stick with it for a long time until I got onto a big station and now that I've done that...all I wanna do is fly planes!

I was mad enough to spend €43K on a car last year so I feel if I could do that then why not spend that amount on something which is more of an investment.

I'm fit enough, I don't wear glasses and apart from hammering my ears for the last 7 years or so with headphones I'm not deaf. I have my Leaving Cert but after a couple of years doing a diploma in Radio Broadcasting I decided to leave due to being offered a full time radio job.

So where do I start? I am aware of a guy who worked in radio in Dublin who is now a FO with Ryanair and I would love to sit down with him and ask lots of questions but sadly, I don't know the guy personally.

So is it a case of giving some nice man 35K plus and applying myself and getting a PPL or what?

Would I get into say Ryanair easy enough with a PPL or would I be better thinking of the UK or possibly beyond?

I'm still quite young so the drop in salary would be ok while I trained.

I feel if I was offered a place to do it all in the morning I would jump at it and I once felt like that about radio...

Sorry for the long post, just wanted to explain my situation a bit.

[easymoney]

Mark,

Check your PM's

[Sky Wave]

Mark

Assuming you are talking in Euros it will cost a lot more than 43k to get into Ryan Air. I believe the latest figures in the UK are about £55k for an integrated course (residential, Zero Hour to Frozen ATPL). And about £35k for the modular route. The integrated route is by far the quickest and it still seems like airlines favour integrated students, however that means that you have to have enough many to pay for the training, live and keep up any other outgoings that you have. The first part of the modular route can usually easily be fitted around you job. You do 45 hours training to get your PPL, you can then study for the 14 exams by distance learning although you will need to take some time off for the “brush up course” and the exams. (2 x 3 week blocks usually). Once you have your 14 exams you can start your CPL and you Instrument Rating, on completion you will have a frozen ATPL. A frozen ATPL is the absolute minimum to get into any airline, although a lot including Ryan Air require you to pay for a Type Rating on their aircraft which I believe costs around £30k. The modular route took me nearly 3 years from my first every flying lesson, and that was with a fairly intense full time job. I also managed to keep doing my full time job right up to the final 3 months.

You can reduce costs slightly by training outside of the UK, however I’ve not done that and don’t really know the score so far as that’s concerned.

The best thing for you to do is read through the Professional Pilot Training Forum, especially the sticky at the top.

Hope that helps.

Good Luck

SW

[willby]

Hi Easymoney
Please check your PM,s
Regards
Willby

[ihatecbs]

Buy Clive Hughes book: Guide to Becoming an airline pilot. All questions answered, and he is a top bloke.

[Gufo]

My humble advice is, try to make flight training live together with your job.
The aviation business is rapidly changing, nervous, unstable. It will improve your health A LOT, to have a fixed income in the hard days to come.
That is, I had an integrated course, but had no job aside. In your place, I would go modular. You're young enough to spend a bit more time to buy some "safety".
It's going to cost lots of money anyway, probably more than you think. If you have gone integrated and are jobless, you will find yourself in a "take-it-or-leave-it" situation. Which is the ideal picture for bad employers like Ryan to let them "sell" a job to you.
I'm much more in favour of a smoother entry into the business. Get your training while you work for your radio, if possible. Then you'll get to look for some aerial work, or air taxi position, leave the radio, and build up your experience, just not to face interviews with no ammunition on your side ;)

I also believe you would appreciate things better this way. I made my run through glider towing, turboprops and airtaxi before getting to an airline. I still find myself in situations where something learned in my past experiences would help. It's a definite "added value" towards the ATPL-direct-to-airlines route, IMHO.
It's a great job, but don't rush. It will help you from buying your job, which is so "trendy" at this time :yuk:

[Send Clowns]

Mark

Go to your local club and get yourself an hour's trial lesson, to make sure you really do enjoy flying an aeroplane. Either that or hop on the RyanAir to Bournemouth and come for a trial lesson with me, the scenery round here is stunning! Then consider getting a PPL (not sure in Dublin, but about £6500 here), while still working, to start towards the modular route to a frozen ATPL, or else giving up the job and starting an integrated course.

Before commiting to commercial training go to the IAA or CAA (depending which country you want to complete training in) and get a class 1 medical (about £420 at Gatwick).

Skywave

Sorry to repeat what has been said many (many, many) times here, but integrated is not "... by far the quickest... " route, taking a couple of weeks extra if taken full-time, residential, and there is no evidence at all that any airlines favour the integrated route. Even the very few that state that integrated training is a requirement (such as BA and FlyBe) don't actually insist on it, I know people accepted who have had modular training. They don't even seem to recognise the difference, I suspect they really only want approved training, but are using out-of-date terminology.

I am employed by a modular FTO, and feel it is unfair publicity for integrated providers when potential new students are given misinformation!

[Gerhardt]

If it's the flying bug has bitten you and you enjoy what you're doing...why not stick with what you enjoy, especially since it pays well, and start by getting your private pilots license to fly for fun. If there comes a time when you decide that you HAVE to fly for a living - that you love it that much - then begin working on your advanced ratings toward a career in flying. In the meantime you're still able to use your PPL for $100 hamburger runs with friends once a week or so.

Flying professionally sounds enticing but it's a competitive path that's expensive and requires a lot of hard work with no guarantees of any kind.

Not to discourage you, really, but start by taking the first step of the PPL and enjoy it for a bit before quitting your day job.

[Mark Noble]

Some sound advice there fellas, really appreciate it and I can only imagine how many times my question has been asked.

It really is a serious amount of money and the idea of paying Ryanair to fly their planes is just madness in my opinion anyway - but I can also see how it is attractive to others if the money is there to burn.

After reading some replies you could be forgiven that any pilot in the sky today has had a very privileged background!? To realistically afford it I think I would very much need to keep my job AND find a nice bank manager.

The idea of getting a PPL is very appealing to me at the moment after reading this, it's a lot more affordable for everyday people certainly anyway.

I'm going to book myself in for a lesson anyway.

Does anyone know if it's possible to start from zero here in Ireland and end up with a CPL without having to leave the country to live elsewhere?

Any further opinions/suggestions are more than welcome.

[Ray D'Avecta]

Would I get into say Ryanair easy enough with a PPL


..........this did make me laugh. :D .

Try to get down to a flying club, and have a chat with the instructors or CFI, or anyone else who could give you an idea of the various options available...

A PPL means you can fly for leisure. To work for an airline, you will need a CPL/IR as a minimum.....so, it pretty much depends on how far you really want to go..............

good luck

[FLYbyWIT]

Yes you can do it all in Ireland, Dublin/Cork/Waterford if you want.
Go for a lesson, chat to the Instructor and other students etc etc.
Read and search this website and also www.flyinginireland.com which of course will give you more specifics relating to Irish Aviation.

[Mark Noble]

Sorry I meant CPL into Ryanair not PPL...slip of the fingers with all the lingo.

Thanks again for the info, very heplful and I'm gonna take an intro flight pretty soon and see how I go from there.

[Bluebaron]

If O'Leary had his way he then the requirment would be a PPL, or maybe even a lawnmower licence. (So long as you pay him enough) ;)



BB

[Mark Noble]

Well I've had a chat with my parents and they're prepared to help as much as they can with money for me to do this until a time when I can pay them back.

So first off I think I'm going to try and get the PPL. It would be quicker to go to Florida etc and get it out of the way but with work this is not possible so I think I will have to do this stage of it here at home in Ireland.

Obviously it's complex but what do exams for the PPL and CPL cover (just a rough explanation)? Are they ridiculously difficult? Maths was never a strong point of mine and physics....well I never had to do an awful lot of it because I didn't specialise in the subject in my Leaving Cert (A levels)..would that be a problem?

I've just bought the 'guide to becoming a professional pilot' online so can't wait to read it.

[Sky Wave]

For your PPL the subjects are:

1. Aviation Law & Operational Procedures
2. Human Performance & Limitations
3. Navigation & Radio Aids
4. Meteorology
5. Aircraft (General) & Principles of Flight
6. Flight Performance & Planning
7. JAR-FCL Communications (PPL)

For a CPL/IR (ATPL) the subjects are:

1. Aviation Law
2. Operational Procedures
3. Meteorology
4. Human Performance and Limitations
5. General Navigation
6. Radio Navigation
7. Flight Planning
8. Performance
9. Principles of Flight
10. Aircraft General Knowledge
11. Instrumentation
12. VFR Communications
13. IFR Communications
14. Mass and Balance

It’s very difficult to answer the question of whether it’s hard or not as ones mans extremely hard is another mans very easy.

I managed it having left school with GCSE’s (highest Grade C) so if I can anyone can.

The ATPL’s are much harder than the PPL exams. The maths is not too bad, fractions, ratios and trigonometry but if you find yourself struggling you can get books or courses which will help you.

Good Luck

SW

[Mark Noble]

Thanks for that Sky. I appreciate what you mean by some things could be hard and to others be a breeze in the park but once you don't need a degree in physics I should be ok with the maths involved.

Still trying to decide which way to do the PPL.

[Lolo737]

Agree with Sky Wave overall and would recommend getting hold of the PPL confuser book to give you a hand with the PPL exams but definately try and get through a few of the Trevor Thom books when you have time as they are excellent and set you up for later on. Although they do not cover the ATPL syllabus I often referred to them thru my ATPLs and not just for reminders.

I would say the Maths involved with the ATPLS was pretty ok but I did Physics at Uni and so Id seen a lot of it before. I wouldn't worry though because many of my pals had not gone as far in school with the Maths sides of things and still did fine after a bit of explanation- suppose everybody has their stronger areas.

The main thing with ATPLs, I feel, is the sheer volume of information you need to get thru and retain! At least until the exams!

As for your PPL, Id strongly recommend the States for the sake of decent weather to give you an uninterrupted run and although money is not everything - it will save you some cash and be a great experience too. If you do decide on the States maybe try and get some of the exams done first as its a lot to take in over a few weeks as well as the exams to study for!
**Also things have changed since I went there - it may be a complete pain trying to get a visa now - but worth looking into!**

Anyway, PM me if you like!
All the best.

Ps - Gerhardt - If only GA in the UK was such that '$100 hamburger runs with friends once a week or so' were possible. Thats why I love the USA!

[Mark Noble]

Once you're not earning money it's pretty easy to get a 90 day Visa I think.

I'm a bit confused here now though - when you say do some exams if you were going to the US - what exams do you do before you complete your hours for the PPL?

BTW - is it a condition of pilots that they must be able to swim?!
I can't so I'd have to learn but one thing that struck me was that if you had to ditch on water the plane probably wouldn't survive it and you would have a life jacket anyway but....? :confused:

[Lolo737]

Well i could be wrong, but i believe the PPL exams can be taken at any stage during the time you are learning to fly on your PPL course but that you have to have them all before you sit the flight test at the end of the course.

The reason I mentioned it, is because when I went out to the States I spent at least the first 2 weeks(out of 4)studying for these exams and trying to get them out the way(hadnt discovered the very helpful confuser book yet) - this, along with a couple of lessons a day is pretty hard work.

I know one or two people who had done a few of them before going out there which naturally cut down their workload while doing the flying.

I would imagine you would have to provide a letter to say you had passed those exams for the school you chose so they could be sure you were able to sit the flight test when the time came.

Regarding your positive thinking on ditching! (and swimming!).... if you had to ditch on water the plane probably wouldn't survive it and you would have a life jacket anyway but....? :D

I dont know if it would be listed as a requirement as such but I think you would be expected to be able to swim a certain distance unaided (50m?). Think its usually a requirement for cabin crew so probably for us too.

[Mark Noble]

he he... yes my positive thinking...well I've seen enough aircrash investigation episodes!!

Hmmmm must find out about the swimming!

[Mark Davies]

Mark, everyone here seems to have offered you lots of options to choose from. I cannot see one single post suggesting you first find out whether you are cut out to be a pilot ! I strongly recommend you go and do the aptitude tests with Gapan www.gapan.org or EPST www.epst.org before making any rash decisions. Get it wrong now and you'll have the rest of your life to think about it !
Good luck to you sir.

[Mark Noble]

I'm sure I'll know from the first 5 mins of being in a light aircraft whether I'm cut out to be a pilot will I not? :confused:

[El Desperado]

Absolutely not. It really is sound advice from Mark Davies to be assessed by one of the organisations he lists. At the end of the day, you don't have to take their advice but the assessment process pretty much covers 90% of the bell curve these days... if they say you'll make it, chances are you will, and vice versa. No guarantees of course.

Commercial flying is vastly different from private flying, and I'm not talking about the size of the aircraft... many commercial pilots earn their wage flying Senecas, or smaller. You cannot just write a cheque and expect a license; this, I'm sure you already know.

What no-one else has mentioned is that you really should head down to Gatwick and get yourself a Class 1 medical before you do *anything*. Without that, all the aptitude tests in the world will come to naught.

Best of luck (as they say in the Republic everytime you're cleared to land !).

P.S. Be prepared to hand back the keys to your posh car, 'cos you are not going to be able to afford it on most FO's first job salary !

[Mark Noble]

I'd do the medical in Dublin, no need to go to Gatwick for it.

I've had a look at the link Mark posted and a lot of it makes sense but surely succeeding at anything is about your drive and determination to try to get to whatever goal you have given yourself? I work as a radio presenter - it's not something everyone can do but it was something I worked at to try and get better and better at and landed a job with a big station in Ireland. Obviously flying a plane is a lot more complex than talking for a living but the main incentive to do something when you want it badly is still there...?

Do they really say that everytime you get clearance?!! Paddies ! ;)