Skills shortage?

[reracker]

In a couple of other threads, counting the pennies and whats the job worth, the general feeling has been that the supposed skills shortage of LAME's should be pushing up wages. All my firm seems to be doing is pileing more work on the guy's that are left, without attempting to replace the cover that leaves.

Is this a typical situation ?

Are all the big firms recruiting and not advertising ?

[unwrapping the aog]

Absolutely,

Especially FLS to name names, that is why I left. At which time there would be not one avionics LAE running one C check, but often One Avionics LAE swithching between 2 or more C checks, and maybe the odd A check for good luck. But as long the aircraft kept rolling out of the hangar door, the management saw no problem.

The poor engineers may turn to alcohol, or end up divorced due to never being at home or even died, but the management keep on piling the aircraft in.

The problem quite often seemed to be that HR can not see the difference between a Multi licenced Multi type rated Engineer with 10 years experience, and an ex forces engineer with one licence and one type rating. No offence to them! but the are not the same thing. Also the management would treat them the same and throw them right in at the deep end with now help or support, except maybe half a dozen, possibly equally inexperienced contractors. Then they In turn would leave for greener lands, and so the ever decreasing circle continues.

[This message has been edited by unwrapping the aog (edited 05 November 2000).]

[mriya225]

C'mon now,
You guys knew that there would be tendency for management to try to take the cheapest possible route...
That's why it's so important for there to be some kind of common agreement across the board. If we can't agree to take each others' backs--management will just keep playing "grab ankles, guess who" with you until something tragic forces them to do otherwise.
I respect the difference between us professionally (I'm a mechanic and will probably never refer to myself as anything other than an A&P no matter how many ratings I earn) but I still think it's important for all of us to hold the line together. No disrespect intended, but the mad rush to delineate between this many ratings versus that many years is part of the problem.
We have an opportunity here to establish a more respectful and lucrative relationship with management worlwide...if only we could stop cutting each other's throats long enough to get after it.

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The diva with many talents.

[Kanga767]

Same situation exists in Australia, especially on what we term Group 20 airframe/turbine engine regional airliners.

[Blacksheep]

Was chatting with our friendly local UK CAA surveyor the other day and he tells me that Redhill is getting concerned. They estimate a shortfall of around 30%. Yet as reracker says, the shortage should be pushing up wages. Since that isn't happening something else is going on in the background to create an inefficient market. I've long suspected that the regulators (e.g. UKCAA, FAA, JAA) were turning a blind eye to the situation but from talking to the surveyor perhaps that will not remain the case. If the operators won't voluntarily hire enough people then its the regulators job to force them.

The frightening thing is the rising incidence of maintenance related accidents. According to the FAA's own figures, last year 50% of all hull losses to FAR 121 operators (ie Public Transport) were due to maintenance causes, exceeding even "Pilot Error" A total of 7 aircraft were written off. (Not to mention the occupants of these machines.) So, what are the operators doing about it then? Are they really saving money by reducing maintenance expenditure?

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Through difficulties to the cinema

[mriya225]

It's sad, but I think you're right Blacksheep. I envy some of these guys (ie. Penn_Doff, redtail, reracker, unwrapping..., etc.) they definitely have an advantage where this impending shortage is concerned. Obviously they'll be the first to have their wages brought more in line with their level of skills and knowledge, but what I really envy is their experience and the confidence that results.
You all have a superior method of obtaining your certification (in my humble opinion). In the states, we enter the work force pretty seriously unprepared unless you've done similar work in the armed forces. Seven of the most experienced mechanics I know are leaving the field (two retiring and the other five making a late in life career switch).
My fear is, where does that leave those of us who're conscientious but lack the experience? I keep imagining it will be like the blind leading the blind. Regulators can be enormously cumbersome, but in the case of those of us in the U.S.--I think their intervention may be wise.

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Un diva très doué.

[reracker]

If the level of cover is getting that low and the CAA are getting concerned help them out. CHIRP is confidential and I am quite sure "trends" are reported to the CAA. You wouldn't be landing yourself in it, you would be highlighting a REAL problem. Like we keep saying, as long as the aircraft are all servicable in the morning, the bean counters don't see a problem, we all are aware our jobs are getting like the swan analogy. All seems calm on the surface......

One avionics to cover a couple of C checks is stretching anyones imagination of "A suitable level of licence cover for the work planned". Its sods law at our place, that when we are under manned, everything comes in servicable and when we have a lot of guys in, there is a hugh work load. There are lots of avenues open to show the powers that be we are at crisis point or very near, use them. We should then be better paid, less stressed, but more importantly able to do a better quality, SAFER job, which i'm sure you will all agree is the main thing.

For you guys outside the UK, CHIRP is a confidential reporting method for anything to do with aircraft safety.

[redtail]

The level of skills and experience at the outfit I work for has declined enough for the company to create Maintenance Representative positions, whose job is to watch the fleet for repetitive problems and give the mechanics troubleshooting guidance. Apparently our current workforce of mechanics/parts changers is lacking in the ability to research the history and nature of their discrepancies and need someone to point out that after four or five part changes the problem may need another approach to being fixed. Personally, I find it demeaning that someone behind a desk is telling me to take a meter and check for the obvious, or to change a hard to access component, but on a plus side, if you want to screw the pooch all night, no one can get on your case if you follow the Representative’s wish list of troubleshooting tasks. I guess we have lost enough of the mechanics who could troubleshoot and repair items on their own initiative and management has noticed. I just think it is a bad sign of the times when someone has to tell a mechanic how to fix an airplane. Isn’t that supposed to be a mechanic’s job? Isn’t one supposed to be proficient in one’s profession? Has anyone else noticed how many aircraft mechanics cannot repair their own cars anymore?

P.S. I am not a pleasant person to work around if one is unencumbered by the thought process. I can recognize the difference between ignorance and inability. I can do something about ignorance.

[mriya225]

Is there a CHIRP equivalent in the U.S. that you all know of?

redtail,
You mean to say that you don't suffer fools well? Shhhh... hush now, stop telling lies. http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/tongue.gif


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Un diva très doué.

[Kanga767]

Australian CASA reports that the average age of LAMES in Oz is 57 and rising. There are few or no apprentices being employed, the airlines won't take on LAMEs unless you're already licensed on their type and of course, one can't get licenced until one has experience, I see the vicious circle spiralling downward when it comes to skilled LAMEs. The place I work for has 7 regional airliners and 3 LAMES, no AMEs or apprentices and we're expected to cover those aircraft flying 10 hours a day each (I work on 1 hour flying = 1 hour maintenance)

[mriya225]

kanga767,

Ohmagawdd! No apprentices?!
How does your outfit justify that? That is going to start creating so much animosity, they can't expect the three of you to hold up that operation, can they?!

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Un diva très doué.

[Penn Doff]

While Chirp is an excellent way of bringing problems to the attention of the CAA the anonymity goes out of the window when one of your company directors is known to be on the board!

To get around the shortage of LAE's many company's are simply de-skilling the job, a shining example of this is "The Worlds Favourite" with its RMA system. How do LAE's who work for them feel about it?



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"please report further"

[Kanga767]

I lie, we have an employee, who is termed an apprentice, actually there are two, and they're both brain dead. Who was involved in the selection processs I hear you ask? MANAGEMENT!!!!!

[time-ex]

Penn Doff - I can't speak for all the worlds favourite's LAEs, but I know many are leaving and are not being replaced. No effort is made to retain them. I suspect it's part of the master plan. What isn't part of the master plan is that the good RMA guys who would in years gone by have been potential LAE material are now getting an A+P and getting work elsewhere rather then go down the JAR 66 route. Correct me if I am wrong, but won't the RMA guys be in possession of some sort of limited JAR 66 licence in the near future and will themselves become a marketable asset in their own right? From my experience, the problem is the standard of RMA guys varies from the barely competent to excellent. Just because they hold an RMA or some sort of JAR paperwork means nothing because of the ease of getting the qualification. Certain TMG (management grade) LAEs have a lot to answer for as it was them who in the first instance were allowed to support the RMA application. In the current climate I would suggest that any LAE who can support RMA applications now does not support an application if he or she thinks that the required experience is not gained. There is currently a mad rush of candidates trying to beat the deadline for JAR66 conversion. Some LAEs feel they are compelled to support applications as they accepted the offered "supplement". They can refuse if they know the application isn't genuine. They should refuse as they are placing their own jobs in jepordy.

[groncher]

Kanga767,
Those guys are working here in Canada too! We have a pile of them, standing
around with their mouths open catching flies,
waiting for the next "Windows Prompt" to tell
them what to do. There really is a lost generation. In their defense, though, the ones with the frosted hair and earrings (males, of course) all seem to know how to use every feature of their cell phones, but
that doesn't help me one effin' bit.

ggggggggggggggggrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!

mildy frustrated,
groncher

[reracker]

MRIYA225, set me straight on a few things, I have worked on some US registered aircraft over here and before you even change a landing light, it seems that you have to phone the States to get permission. Is this typical of how the whole industry works over there, or is it just because we are not FAA certifiers, has there been a gradual move to this kind of working due to deskilling.

The RMA that the time ex mentioned is a limited certifying authorisation, mainly company issued to cover wheels, brakes, lights, cabin equipment ect. I totally agree it has given some people who are not up to it certifying powers and the extra money has ment a lot of the people with promise are saying its not worth all the effort for a couple thousand more and all the grief and responsibilty that goes with it.

Interesting point from Kanga that the average age is so high, the average age on my shift must be late 40's now and thats just fallen because 2 guys with over 65 years combined EXPERIENCE have left. The only people coming in at the bottom now have lots of licences but NO experience. JAR66 will increase that. They class themselves as graduates so after a couple of years the are not going to want to be changing a brake unit in sub-zero temperature on the ramp in the middle of the night. But would like a nice cosy 9-5 office job.

The camels back is groaning, it sounds as if the industry world wide is going to be suffering a very severe skills shortage sooner than most people think. Unlike cabin crew, we can't be replaced in 3 months. We need investment in people fast.

Thanks for the info guys, anyone else can reinforce this skills shortage info with more facts and figures, I would appreciate it.

[mriya225]

reracker,
Now keep in mind here, I'm just a veteran ramp rat earning my Airframe & Powerplant certification--maybe the slow guy from Alabama would prefer to be your source on this--but yes; that's pretty much the way it is across the board here from what I've seen.
I have a good friend who works the one man outstation here for Kitty Hawk (holds both A&P and Avionics cert.s) and he is required to call their op.s center with repair information. I know it drives him up the wall to have someone who's never been on the flightline tell him when or how much to do, but that's life.

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Un diva très doué.

[This message has been edited by mriya225 (edited 11 November 2000).]

[redtail]

mriya225, you rang? Thanks for not typing quickly, it makes it easier for me to read. :) What’s an Avionics Certificate?

reracker, how were the logbooks signed off? With an airline employee number, or a signature plus a certificate/vendor number? Did you have to call to see if it was ok timewise, and did the maintenance controller have to decide if it was more time efficient to repair rather than MEL? Usually you only need to contact a maintenance controller to coordinate a deferral.

Over here an A&P is still a requirement for working on live aircraft, but most outfits are lowering their experience requirements. It used to take five years of jet experience before a major airline would call one in for an interview, but now they are hiring mechanics straight from tech school and upgrading people with A&Ps from other departments. Since the majors are having a hard time getting experienced personnel, imagine what it is like for all of the other outfits over here. This is shaping up into being a big problem. A lot of trade magazines are saying the nasty words "Pay" and "Wages".

[mriya225]

redtail,
No, I didn't ring sugar, this is a c_o_m_p_u_t_e_r not a p_h_o_n_e. :)

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Un diva très doué.

[roo 2]

you think airlines are trying to fix the problem.no no no.my employer is trying to find ame's and lame's at the moment and they need hundred's of them.but the problem is there offering less MONEY than cleaners are getting within the company on the old pay structure and about 25% less than engineers on the old struture.so now there off overseas trying to find engineers in third world countries.that's how my employer is trying to fix the problem.

[SchmiteGoBust]

FLS has found the perfect way to keep engineers! One of them there passed his JAR66 license and asked if FLS would contribute to the cost. The reply was no, due to the fact that FLS did not need JAR66. Also if they encouraged their staff to obtain JAR66 ,the staff would become more attractive to other employees!!

By discouraging their engineers from obtaining JAR66 means they will have to work on grandfather rights. Hence become of no use to other companies who are working towards the total JAR66 goal.
How fantastically clever of them...Now that's good man management!!

[Cat1234]

roo 2, could you email me some more details?

[Continuous Ignition]

Hi guys,

What about the repair stations that use farmers and convicts to do maintenance on aircraft? I'm very familiar with an airline that out-sources their heavy mx. At one location, they use felons from the local prison to do some of the work. How can us AMT's compete with this cheap labor source?

If the flying public found out about what goes on in those places, i.e. minimum acceptable standards, crappy work and items being overlooked because of the cost factor, we would be in a world of hurt.

Have you ever seen safety wire used as a wire-tie on a bundle? I've had the horror to see that with my own eyes...

Untill the goverments force certified repair stations to use ONLY licensed technicians, I'm afraid we'll continue to see the effects of shade-tree mechanics

And we wonder why our wages are low???

For the life of me I don't understand why airlines offer contacts to repair stations who submit the "lowest bid". Bean counters are so short-sighted that they only see the direct costs vs. delays and us guys having to nearly re-do the heavy check on re-delivery to the airline because of the s%#%@ the scumbag outfits put out.

When I worked at a major, we spent many many hours working the heavy checks and when they delivered, they were producing revenue on a consistant basis from the moment they took off on the first scheduled trip. Ok, on occasion we would have a glitch here and there, but nothing on the scale I have seen from third party operations

Anyone at the majors wanna help a poor sod out with some job info? :)

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Don't like it? Don't look at it!

[redtail]

Go to the www.nwa.com (http://www.nwa.com) website and burrow around for job info. By the time your application is processed, we should have a contract. It might even compensate for experience.

[moremj2]

In Aus...QF is currently sending a group of 17 to NZ, SAfrica, Ireland, HK just to interview and hire LAME and uLAME (or whatever u want to call it) because of the lack of skill coming to the industry.

The skill shortage exists (in my humble opinion) with short term bonuses being paid to "Senior" management, who find things like training and apprentices easy pickings to make savings in their area...and therefore bonuses in their pockets.

Short term solutions = Long term problems

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If you're going out into the blue, be sure your engines got more mj2

[roo 2]

the reason that QF is sending management o/s is partly due to lack of skills,but it's also because there paying third world wages for ame's so there off to sth africa.