Training & Flying in America: Visa information

[Naples Air Center, Inc.]

I am writing this thread because there is still much confusion about what the requirements are to fly or train in the U.S.A. Please do not let the length of this post stop you from reading it. Look at numbers 1 to 5, to decide whether or not need a Visa. If you are required to have a Visa, it is very important to make sure you understand the steps you must follow. The process is straight forward and there are people that will help you every step of the way.

On the 12th of April 2002 the immigration rules changed and affected flight training in the U.S.A.

Who needs a Visa and what type will you need:

1) If you are coming to hour build or a flying holiday and have a FAA Licence or an FAA licence issued on the basis of your Foreign Licence, you can enter the country on a Visa Waiver and fly as long as you meet the F.A.R.s. (BFR, Medical, etc.)

2) If you need to convert your licence to a Restricted F.A.A. Licence, you will need to submit the request to the F.A.A. in Oklahoma City so they can do a full background check; this process takes upwards of 60 days. If you get the o.k. to convert your licence you can enter the country on a Visa Waiver.

If you do not have the time to wait to convert your licence, you can take the F.A.A. Written Test and the Flight Test in order to get an Unrestricted F.A.A. Licence. In order to do this you will need to be on an F-1, M-1, or J-1 Visa. (Since you are seeking a Licence/Rating)

If you decide not to convert your licence and just fly on an F.A.A. Student Solo Certificate, you will once again need to be on an F-1, M-1, or J-1 Visa. (Since it is a Student Licence)

3) Going to the U.S.A. in order to train for a J.A.A. or F.A.A. Licence. You must be on a F-1, M-1, J-1 Visa. (Since you are seeking a Licence/Rating)

4) If you are coming to the U.S.A. in order to revalidate you licence, either F.A.A. or J.A.A., you can come on a Visa Waiver since that is a currency requirement and you are not adding a Rating/Licence. This is subject to change since the authorities are looking at this situation and there are people in I.N.S. which want this to require a Visa.

5) If you have entered the U.S.A. on holiday and while here decided to do flight training. Should you want to train in the U.S.A. after you arrive in the U.S.A. and are on a B Visa, you can apply to change your status to F-1/M-1/J-1 Visa and must wait till your status is changed before you can begin training. If you entered the U.S.A. on a Visa Waiver, you will have to leave the country, obtain the appropriate Visa and then return to train. The Visa Waiver is NOT a Visa and therefore you do not have a Visa to change status on.

Where do you find the information:

If you have any questions about what Visas you are required to have, contact the U.S. Embassy in your country. They are the direct source. Anything else is "hear say", even this thread is technically "hear say". The U.S. Embassy will give you definitive answers on any requirements on entering the U.S.A.

The most common Visa for J.A.A. flight training in the U.S.A. is the M-1 Visa. Here is a thread which I posted on October 03, 2001 explaining the M-1 Visa:

M-1 Visa Explained (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7484)

The changes since that thread was posted are:

When you go to the Embassy you need to bring:

1) A letter from the school you are going to attend listing the max takeoff weight of the aircraft or simulator you are going to train in.

2) Completed Form DS-0156 (http://travel.state.gov/DS-0156.pdf)

3) Completed Form DS-0158 (http://travel.state.gov/DS-0158.pdf)

4) Completed Form DS-0157 (http://travel.state.gov/DS-0157.pdf) (If you are Male between the ages of 16 and 45)

This process will take on average 7 to 10 days.

What are the actual INS Regulations:

These are the rules which were added on 12th of April 2002 by FR 11-02 in order to close the loopholes in flight training:

Requiring Change of Status From B to F-1 or M-1 Nonimmigrant Prior to Pursuing a Course of Study (http://www.ins.gov/lpBin/lpext.dll/inserts/fr/fr-80865/fr-83683?f=templates&fn=document-frame.htm#fr-67fr18062)

The changes were made to:

8 CFR PART 214 -- NONIMMIGRANT CLASSES (http://www.ins.gov/lpBin/lpext.dll/inserts/slb/slb-1/slb-9606/slb-17082?f=templates&fn=document-frame.htm#slb-cfrp214)

and

8 CFR PART 248 -- CHANGE OF NONIMMIGRANT CLASSIFICATION (http://www.ins.gov/lpBin/lpext.dll/inserts/slb/slb-1/slb-9606/slb-26759?f=templates&fn=document-frame.htm#slb-cfrp248)


The Visa Waiver Program:

8 CFR PART 217 -- VISA WAIVER PROGRAM (http://www.ins.gov/lpBin/lpext.dll/inserts/slb/slb-1/slb-9606/slb-21126?f=templates&fn=document-frame.htm#slb-cfrp217)

Note the Visa Waiver Program does not allow any training of any kind in the U.S.A.

If anyone tells you to lie to the Immigration Officer when you enter the country (ie. say you are on holiday), that means they know the Laws and are knowingly telling you to Violate them. Be sure to check with the U.S. Embassy if you have any questions.

I hope this helps anyone wanting to fly in the U.S.A. enter the U.S.A. correctly.

Happy Flying,

Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.

[Charlie Zulu]

Hello All,

The US Embassy in London has introduced an additional requirement for the application of Non-Immigrant Visas this month (January 2003).

They now require *all* applicants between the ages of sixteen and fifty nine to attend the Embassy with all required paperwork for a formal interview with regards to the application. Sixteen to Fifty Nine year olds are no longer able to apply for Non-Immigrant Visa's (inc M-1) by post.

URL: http://www.usembassy.org.uk/cons_web/visa/niv/interview.htm

I thought it would be wise to let you all know, even though those of you who will be applying for this type of visa will be checking the US Embassy website for the latest information.

This information is for UK people only, I am unable to comment on applications from other countries / citizens.

[FlyingForFun]

CZ,

Since you are obviously going through this process at the moment, can you give us an idea how long the whole thing takes, from start to end? Or is it too soon for you to have a good idea yet?

(I'm thinking of going to the US to do some training towards the end of this year. Haven't made a definite decision yet, but will obviously need to make that decision in plenty of time to get the paperwork sorted out!)

Thanks,

FFF
-----------

[Charlie Zulu]

As far as I am aware the visa should be approved and issued within a couple fo days after the interview.

I was speaking to someone who had their interview yesterday and he said that his interview was quite a relaxed affair, about 10 minutes in total. The worst part was waiting around for an 1 and a half hours for his number to be called out. They also informed him that his application was successful and they would be sending out his visa yesterday evening. (I'm not sure if he has received it yet though). However I am not sure if this is normal as they do say on the embassy website that it will take a couple of days to process the application.

So in total the process has taken me 10 weeks, probably a total of 3 months by the time it has been issued. But I am sure you could get the process down to 4-5 weeks if you don't delay it like I did!!!

[G SXTY]

Yes, that timescale is about right. I applied to NAC at the beginning of December and received the I-20 about 10 days later. I thought I’d be really organized and get all the visa forms in advance, so I was just waiting on the I-20 – until I discovered my passport had gone AWOL. :eek:

New passport issued 30th December, and 1st available interview at the embassy was the 14th of Jan. As CZ says, the only hassle with the appointment is the hanging around for nearly 2 hours, waiting to be seen. The interview itself was very brief, and they confirmed there and then I would get the visa – it duly turned up a couple of days later.

All fairly painless.

[Charlie Zulu]

G-SXTY,

When are you going to NAC and which courses are you going over for? I'm going on the 26th April for a month...

Just under a week to my interview, hopefully they'll give me a yes or no at my interview also.

FlyingForFun,

Good luck with the exams.

I'd be tempted to go and do my JAR CPL over in the USA as well, but I'm not sure if it'll be worth my while as with an FAA CPL/IR I'll have quite a lot of flying credit towards the JAA CPL/IR course. Just a shame I'll still be required to do the JAA ATPL exams. :-)

[VORTIME]

Other than the fact everyone here is going to NAC (and who can blame them - from expeirence - first class operation), I hope to go to the US and do a course in a smaller operation that doesn't have VISA approval. Does this close off all avenues?

I will be recording P1 throughout the course and already have a FAA flight-test issued ticket.

VT

[Charlie Zulu]

If the training you are going to be undertaking will lead towards a licence, be it an FAA or other such as JAA, then my belief is that you will most definately require a Visa.

In order to obtain, say an M-1 visa you will require a flight school who are approved to send out I20M forms, these forms are required to apply to the US Embassy for your visa, without one the US Embassy will not issue an M-1 visa.

IIRC a BFR doesn't count as training towards a licence as you already have the licence, you are just revalidating it.

[G-AMMY]

I already have an M-1 visa for flying in the US. My passport ran out last week and just wondering if anyone knows if the M-1 visa in my old passport is still valid when used with my new one. I got my new passport in through the post today. I thought I would ask here before ringing the US Embassy Visa line at £1.50per/min for advice.

Thanks

[EGPFlyer]

The info you need is here (http://www.usembassy.org.uk/cons_web/faqs/niv/faq_visas.htm#two)

[Metch]

Hello.....
I have just spent a couple of hrs going through the posts, and have found the majority inspiring, and some made me a chuckle .
I am a wannabe, and am studying all aspects of training. I am 35 have a UK law degree, and am detirmed to commence training later this year.
Have looked at all the posts in respect of age, Canada, Austalia, and the US.
The majority of my questions have been answered, and some elements covered questions I should be asking. Ta
One area I would like some input on, is the option of US training with HAI.
Sounds like a good school with good options, however in one post it suggested that it's possible to get an M-1, train, then convert to J-1 toward the latter part of the course, which gives the maximum 24 Months to build hours under the ambit of a CFI(I),any input would be greatly recieved.

[Metch]

Still hammering my through the posts and found this from ClearBlueWater.........

"HandyAndyUK, one thing is for certain there will never be an easy way to become a helo pilot. Given a fairly typical profile, when you're in your 20s you've got the time but you can't afford it. When you're in your 30s your wife (or other) and kids will demand some of your time, hamper mobility for that elusive first job and you still can't afford it without taking on enormous debt. In your 40s the kids need stability and moving to the bhundu for the first job is not a practical option, also you still can't afford it and you've got less time left to pay off the accumulated debt. In your 50s you're too old to get the first job (usually). In a nutshell it is not going to get any easier by waiting for tomorrow, if anything it just gets harder.

At the end of the day you'll never justify embarking on the venture from a reasoned position so it's not a decision for the head, it's a decision for the heart.

You don't regret what you've done only what you didn't do.

As ever you've got to be in to win."

Insipiration at its best.

[ryuzu]

I don't know the specifics but the J-1 is offered as I understand it on the basis of HAI's part 141 programme (FAA integrated professional training programme).

If you take the M-1 option to do part of the training, you then could only qualify for a J-1 if you started from scratch again, which of course would be totally pointless since you'd be covering a number of qualifications you already have.

It's a few months ago now, but I think there may have been some time restriction between VISA applications too (possibly several years).

Either way, it's a good idea to talk with the school direct since they'll have dealt with a few things. Also given the jumpiness in the US right now regarding foreigners, I would be careful not to put yourself on the wrong side of the INS. The US embassy website also has a fair bit of data.

Have fun.

r.

[murdock]

Its good to see you are thinking of utilising visas the best way possible. I would advise getting an M1 visa to begin with for the majority of your training, get most of the JAA school work done and get your FAA private license done either before or during your JAA training. Then when you are ready to get your FAA commercial, go and get the J1 visa, as you cant get a J1 after you have your FAA commercial license, so they say! then you will only have a few months left of school, and you get your CFI and instrument and have at least 18 months visa working time, to get some good hour building.
Good luck with it all. Let me know if you need any help with info on the visas or the school.

[Metch]

Thanks for your post.

I have not completley disregarded the USA, however I am now studying NZ & OZ.

From what I can fathom, the NZ licence is highly regarded in the industry, its just that I am in that age old place, with ancient questions such as which is the best route toward that first job, seek CFI first or operational expereience then CFI.

It's a tough place, and tough decision's to be made.

Dont want to end up on the rubbish heap, with 150hrs.

When I jump in I need it to be right.

Thanks for your offer of assistence, I have been looking at HAI in florida, and may indeed need to come back and pick your brains...
:uhoh:

[Flingwing207]

I am a current HAI student (very near the CFI checkride)

HAI is a great place to do the J1 thing. While the numbers dictate that not every graduate of HAI will end up working at HAI, so far I have seen every J1 student get a job somewhere in the US (if that was their goal).

Since HAI is also a JAA training facility, if someone on a J1 visa gets work there, they can then train toward their JAA license while they work as a CFI.

So while you can't count on getting hired by any school that trains you, if you put in a good effort and stand out as a student, pilot, and CFI candidate, there's no better place for opportunity than HAI.

(Can you tell I like the place?)

[Metch]

Have just phoned HAI.....sounds like you have a good instructor turnaround...5 off to Texas......

Very appealing:ok:

[autosync]

The slick marketing department may have forgotten to tell you that they were all very experienced American instructors and it is the first movement of Instructors in nearly a year!

[Metch]

Autosync.

With so many choices of schools, and routes into the industry, and with the with a glut of candidates for employment, the decision making process on schools is nothing short of a waking nightmare:sad:

However an indication of movement is better than none, and indeed the slick marketing have just called me and spent an hour on the phone from the USA to the UK where we thrashed out possible routes, and the upshot was that it would be better for me to do my PPL elsewhere, in respect of my particular circumstances and aspirations. (Kind Note to Samantha) :ok:

[Flingwing207]

Hi autosynch,

You are perhaps a little pessemistic - we have two Americans and two J1 guys going to Tex-Air, we had another J1 guy go to Barbados (a very sweet ride) this December, we have another J1 guy going to Columbia (the operator) to fly co-bubba in Chinooks in March.

Between May 2002 - May 2003 we sent two to Temsco, one chose to move to and teach in New Jersey (couldn't tell you why), one went to fly an R-44 in Orlando. Four more went back to Europe with their JAA ratings. There may be one or two others, but that's all I can remember right now.

Anyway, like I said, there is never a guarantee of a job, nor is one implied - there are sometimes stretches of a month or two where there are no new CFIs hired, then (like last month) there may be four hired in as many weeks.

So that's my story, and I'm sticking to it!:ok:

[autosync]

flingwing
Sorry to burst your bubble but you will find all the guys who move on to large operators are either Green card holders or U.S citizens.
Very few European graduates will ever get any turbine time or work for a large company in the U.S with just a J1 visa.

but maybe you will prove me wrong, best of luck with the rest of your training

[Flingwing207]

It isn't my bubble, autosynch - just what I've seen happen.

However, in looking at my post, I can see where it looks like I was saying that ALL those pilots were J1 folks. Not what I intended - you are right, most of those folks are US citizens or green-card holders - most of the J1 folks I know have gotten CFI jobs only (the two at Tex-Air are probably green-card holders as you said).

Mostly I just wanted to point out that there is a healthy turnover at HAI - I can definitely list fifteen instructors moving on in the last 12 months.

[1skydive]

This may be off topic slightly and indeed may need to be moved to the wananbe's section. However, in talking about HAI, I have to admit, there seems to be very few schools that I have seen no negative comments posted on this and other forums and HAI is one of those schools. I plan to visit them in the next month or so.

But my question is this, most schools use the R22 primarily as their training helicopter and although HAI have these available, it seems they use the Schweizer for their FAA and CAA/JAA primary training aircraft. Now, as we know, in the US, the vast majority of low time heli pilots get jobs as instructors. Therefore wouldn't the R22 be a better aircraft to train in as the majority of jobs would be for R22 instructors? How do you feel about this limiting the available jobs for graduates to schools who use the Schweizer (assuming that HAI doesn't employ you). And with the 200 hour minimum in the R22 you cant just do a conversion to the Robbie and start instructing. Curious to what you all think.

Thanks.

[Flingwing207]

Hi 1skydive,

Your observation is correct - most schools are using R.22s, and most of them are using insurance which requires 200 hours in the R.22.

There are a few more 300CBi's popping up as people figure out that the CBi is as cheap to run as the R.22 over the long haul, but currently the R.22 still dominates the training landscape.

If you go through from beginning to CFII at HAI, you can do your instrument, commercial, and CFII training in either the 300 or the R22 - depending on your choice (and how much you fly in your IFR and Com), you can have anywhere from 50 to 100 hours in the R.22 (I did the IFR and will do the CFII and will probably have about 75 R.22 hours, vs about 130 300CB hours).

There are R.22 schools who will hire you with less than 200 hours, and there are schools with the 200-hour requirement who will make some effort to get you some flying time in other ways (photo flights, etc). There are also Schweizer schools contacting HAI fairly regularly, looking for CFIs.

But the bottom line is, you may indeed have a tougher time finding that first job if you do all your training in the 300CB - that's the choice you have to make, for the time being.

[fflyboy101]

I'm at HAI at the moment too. I know a couple of guys who changed their M1 to a J1 without too much trouble.

As for those off to tex air, one was a JAA instructor and English. But on the whole it seems that the school is well known in US and a llot of people get job offers.:ok:

[hotzenplotz]

Hi

I’m from Europe and want to build hours as a CFI in the US. The thing is that I actually have a US CPL with about 200 hours TT.
I know about 3 helicopter flight schools which give their students a J-1 VISA. One in Oregon, one in Titusville and one in Fort Lauterdale.
At his point I’m not very interesting for a school because I won’t need much training for a CFI or CFII license, and maybe they are not able to give me a J-1.

My questions are:

-are there other schools than the 3 named above which offer a
J-1?

-are there any limitations like an hour-limit?

-is it possible to convert an H-VISA to J-VISA

I searched the forums but didn’t get the desired informations. I heard that there is a fourth school offering J-1 but I didn’t found the name yet.


Thank you, and fly safe …

[Mike Hardy]

I wouldn't try to second-guess what the immigration laws are. I recommend you contact a US immigration attorney and ask their advice. There are a number of ways to legally work here as a temporary resident. It all depends on what qualifications you offer.

PM me if you want a recommendation for an attorney that will be able to give you sound advice.

[Twisted Rigging]

Sign yourself up for an ATPL (H) Course, you should be able to build hours towards that?

[Lightning_Boy]

I think you can enter on the visa 2 weeks before the visa date starts.

[NicePuppies]

I would be grateful if someone could explain the difference between the m1 and j1 visas for study in the states.
Im thinking i might do the HAI thing for hours building, CFI etc. They offer the j1 which sounds good, but there are other schools offering the m1. The j1 offered at HAI is clearly better as every man and his monkey seems to say its worked for them but why is it better than the m1?
Plain English preffered!!!

:confused:

[Jonasraf]

That place in Oregon is Hillsboro aviation

[NicePuppies]

Thanks Hands on..
i'll look in to those other schools (seems unfair that HAI get all the attention!).
:ok:

[One of these days]

Hi there,
just with regards to HAI. I'm here at the moment and after everything I had heard about their reputation I have to admit I'm deeply disappointed. Basically it's a constant up hill struggle to get the hours in, either because of availability of ships or instructors. It definately has not lived up to it's rep. So I join you on looking around for a better school, something I thought I had already done!:(

Good Luck!

[Heliport]

Visa information: Click HERE. (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=65838)

[PhilJ]

One of these days, I am looking into HAI or Hillsboro at present, I spoke to HAI and was concerned about scheduling but they told me they had a number of new aircraft on order and that these were starting to be delivered. Is this increase in aircraft enough in your opinion to sort out the problem?

[NicePuppies]

Thanks to all those for the visa info...


The feedback about HAI is interesting to read, especially from those who are currently there. But is there anyone there at the moment who is coming to the end of their training or who has done the HAI thing and used the J1 visa for instructing, successfully and gained the hourage they wanted in a 'reasonable' time frame....Would be good to hear some upbeat stories.

2 hours a week? !! what do you spend the rest of your time doing? Is there much going on in the swamp?.....ahhh Disneyworld.
;)

[AirWon]

I went the HAI route ten years ago. I came on an M1, did my private, went home for break, (less than a month) and came back on a J1. It gave me almost 2 1/2 years. I'm not sure if it's possible now but it's worth checking into.

[One of these days]

Phil-J,
it is true that there are additional Helicopters on order, and indeed some have been delivered already. I believe that the delivery has been delayed from the manufacturer so not HAI's fault. The other problem at the moment is the amount of JAA instructors that have recently left due to visa's running out. I'm holding my breath with HAI because of the reputation they have and I hope that the problems being experienced at the moment are short lived and will be sorted out soon. However I have certainly started to think about a contingency plan if all goes to pot.

The M1+J1 thing to achieve 2 1/2 years is still an option, there are folks here that are doing exactly that. You will also need to arrange permission to train in the USA. This is a new thing that costs $130 through the Transport Safety Agency(TSA) and it is seperate to the visa requirement. Once permission has been granted you then have to have your fingerprints taken by the police on arrival in the US. About a week later (after arrival) you should be granted permission to train.

One of these Days
:ok:

[Lioncopter]

I am one of those guys who went over to the US from the Uk, I am just coming up to the end of my visa (a j-1) now.

I finished my CFI training with them and am now working as an instructor with them.

My school is fully supportive in me trying to gain another visa to extend my stay and continue working for them. So while I am not shure about any where else Not caring about you leaving here they are intresed in keeping me on just like the last two European instructors they have had here.

I am short of My 1000 Hours but that is through no fault of there's i Had two bouts of illness while here that kept me on the ground for 4 months including a stint in hospital.

Sorry forgot to say, You cant change your training to a non J-1 school, you can transfer to another approved school though.

Its a pain to do as the person that deals with this with in the US goverment denys that you can, even though there is a section on the J-1 form for transfering to another school.

[Simon853]

Hi,
Could anyone point me in the direction of a detailed description of what a CPL student can do upon course completion while on a J1 visa, and what not? (I've searched here, but "J1" is too short for the search engine.)

I know it allows a person to work in the professional field for which they've trained under the issuance of the visa, but what I'm not clear on is whether it is restricted to instructing.

I know that practically it is, since I wouldn't get hired under 1000 hours, which I'd need to instruct to attain, but what then, could I do a bit of charter work if the opportunity came up?

Thanks,

Si

[VisaGeeza]

You'd probably be better posting in the wannabees Professional training forum.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?forumid=14

[Simon853]

Ok, agreed. If the moderator wants t close this thread I'll repost there.

Si

[Barotrauma]

The J1 visa I have restricts me to flight instruction only.

[VisaGeeza]

Simon, if I didn't make myself clear, I'm sorry. The reason I suggested the training forum was because I felt that you would get a better response there. There are a lot more people using that forum who go stateside. Als, there is a visa "sticky" thread there and I'm sure that the author of it will put you on the right track.

Good luck!

[TEASANDPEAS]

Availability of instructors and aircraft is much improved. The school is busy but there are about a dozen more instructors and the new CBis are making a big difference. Another new one arrived last week and two more are being flown from the factory next week. A couple more Robbie instrument trainers are on line also since New Year, making a total of 10 or 11 IFR ships out of about 32. The courses are full until July or September so you likely won't get started for a few months and there should be at least six more helis by then.

Ts&Ps

[murdock]

HAI is a good school and although busy, you are still getting the quality training that it is renowned for. I dont know of any other school that can match everything they do, and in terms of hours, the people that say they only get 2 hours a week are probably not pushed to fly much more than that. If you are hard working and push hard with your instructor you can get everything done in less than 9 months, and then you have 15 months to work to build as many hours as you can. And since you all know that HAI is really busy, then think of it this way. If you get hired there you know you will be flying your ass off with students. If you dont get work there then the rest is up to you.
For visa purposes, the best way to get the most of your time is ask for an M1, come over and do your private and instrument and most of your commercial, then go home and get a J1 visa, comeback sit your Commercial checkride and get your CFI and CFII and then you should have loads of time to build a substantial amount of hours while working.

If you have the money I would advise doing the FAA and JAA together. It will require you to put the work in and not sit around on your ass, but having both will pay off for you in the end.

Good luck with the flying. And dont forget, HAI is situated in the middle of Florida. So compare the weather there to Oregon and other places and tell me who you think will get the most flying year round. Common sense really!!

[Simon853]

I'm going to HAI in September to do the joint JAA+FAA CPL course. I'm enrolling in the next couple of weeks once I get the deposit sorted out.

Anybody else from the UK going over there that's getting HAI to sort out shared accomodation for them?

Si

[Chairmanofthebored]

What a crock of ****. That place must be the fastfood version of the helicopter training industry.
How the heck can you say you are "getting quality" with statements like this?:

HAI is a good school and although busy, you are still getting the quality training that it is renowned for. I dont know of any other school that can match everything they do, and in terms of hours, the people that say they only get 2 hours a week are probably not pushed to fly much more than that. If you are hard working and push hard with your instructor you can get everything done in less than 9 months, and then you have 15 months to work to build as many hours as you can. And since you all know that HAI is really busy, then think of it this way. If you get hired there you know you will be flying your ass off with students.

SO, you come out of your licence and then start teaching one of your pommie brethen all about the in's and out's of the helicopter game.

Its a joke.

This is the tragedy of our industry that the blind are leading the blind and "the man" (thanks to Jack B) is getting rich at your expense.

Why can you english not just use your initiative and seek a better road?

Read some books, magazines and research what you might need to be doing with this career of yours. Get off your own arse and find out the visa requirements??

Select a training organisation that might offer you more than just a ticket and token instructors licence.
Select a company where you might be able to go out and ground crew to watch the goings on of the business.
Select somewhere that you can sit in the coffee shop and hear real pilots with real jobs swap war stories lathered in bull****, that might actually have something contained in them you can learn from.

This all sounds a little like grade school...

Good luck tossing your hard earned pounds away.

I hope Bert, Rotorboy and SAS have a stab at this one too. What a crock.

[Simon853]

Don't be so hard on people doing the J1 route. If training in Europe wasn't so prohibitively expensive, more people would stay in Europe and train.


Quite right. I spent months researching my options, and it's a shame, but travelling across the world to do it is my best option, if only because with the money I save I can afford a JAA IR course back in Blighty afterwards.

For those of us that want to go the integrated route, (I'm not young enough to spend time washing helicopters for pennies), all the schools in the UK operate pretty much the same as HAI. i.e. They are primarily schools, and exposure to the cynical old buggers that spout stories "lathered in bull****" in the coffee bars is minor. Plus, what with the cost of the training, I'd be begging in order to pay for that much coffee.:D

I've spoken to several CFI's at UK training schools. Even the ones trying to get me to sign on with them have a respect for HAI's quality and many have recruited their graduates themselves.

By it's very nature the industry has changed to accomodate integrated courses. So many people take that route, and (against all odds apparently..) go on to successful careers. Are all these negative attitudes simply a matter of "if it's not as difficult for you as it was for me, then it's not good enough"?

Everybody acepts that ideally training would be done by squillion hour veterans who can keep their students amused with stories of barnstorming in the 1920's, but it's just not a reality, anywhere. HAI, CabAir, OAT, UK, US, wherever, students are very likely to get taught by an instructor little more than a year further into their careers themselves. So really, what's the difference if I decide to put my $60k+ into an American organisation rather than a British one?

Regards,

Si

[rotorboy]

Mr. Chairman, you are absolutely correct. Its is a crock, and it is the Mc Donald’s of flight training. HAI ‘s student base is mostly foreign, tons of Pome’s and lots of Scandys. During the early 90’s it had quite a good rep but these days it is a mill, and certainly one for the funny talkers.

As far as quality of training , I don’t think so. Do you want to go to a school that charges you for tons of ground instruction that you can read and learn your self? Where to 150 hour instructors where applet’s, black trousers and white shirts ( what do they think they flying some s76 in NYC?)? Where you get charged flight time when you are in the helicopter waiting for your instructor who is yacking it up, and still charging you for post and preflights when he blows you off to rush for the next student so he/she can get another .8? Where you only get in the aircraft when you fight to get on the schedule because there are way to many students vs. a/c.

As a national or even some one with a J1 who wants to work as an instructor in the here why would you train in a H300? Besides HAI there are maybe 2 schools that are busy with 300’s , 95 percent of the flight training in the US is done in R22. Due to the sfar and insurance if you don’t train in the r22 , it is highly unlikely you will find a job in one. Most of the other non flight training entry level work is also done in the r22 (photo/rides/patrols/etc).

Now the J1. I agree , why don’t these people do a search here (I am not going to provide the link) but this was discussed late last year. Most people here already know how I feel about that one. I pointed out the frequent abuse it has gotten , especially from the HAI students. Now this M1 J1 thing, sounds a little grey areaish. The intent is to beat the system. Don’t worry the Mighty TSA will eventually catch on.

HAI has a great deal going. They have a pile of students they charge the most expensive flight training , that come over from across the pond. They get there J1, study for a year, then they hire them at a super low wage because they know they only have 1 year to get some experience. Almost all of these students come over budgeted for the 2 years, so working for survival wage is not a factor. This just kills the local guy who is trying to pay rent, car insurance and grocery’s.

Oh and working for pennies, better get used to it. My as well get started washing helicopters. Look at it from this point of view. You are going to hire an instructor, who are you going to hire? The guy scrubbing and sweeping, who has shown interest, worth ethic and commitment to you and his career or the guy who thinks his 200 hours and 50k worth of lic in his pocket are going get him a job? Hmm that’s a tough one. That’s how I got my start, washing that is….

As far as the blind leading the blind instructing , that is just the way it is over here. It realy isnt that bad of a thing, it teaches you AWARENESS, lets you loose weight due to stress and little sleep for the first couple of months , and it makes you sharp. I know a lot of operators who will hire a 1000hr robby instrucotr over an ex military or 300 guy any day. It shows, you have a little finess and understand the concept of POWER Managment.. R22 guys get in a Jet Box or a Astar and tend to fly the pants out of it. Thats how I started and I have ended up ok (some will debate that with you). Alot of that is insurance and customer driven, wether a 500hr guy can due the same job any different than the 1000hr guy is a whole diferent thread.

I would love to see a statistic on how many students at HAI actually go on to become career pilots, or give up after awhile… Flying Squirrel didn’t want to take my bet…!

I love this one:
“By it's very nature the industry has changed to accommodate integrated courses. So many people take that route, and (against all odds apparently..) go on to successful careers. Are all these negative attitudes simply a matter of "if it's not as difficult for you as it was for me, then it's not good enough"?"

Do you really think your going to finish and get a flight instruction job and a career? I don’t see that attitude at all, especially here on Rotorheads. Be ready for tough times, sacrifice and heartache. That’s just the realitly of it.

Ok that’s enough ranting; I need to finish my beer.

Hey Chairman, What’s an Ozzy’s favorite sight in Sydney?
A Kiwi swimming out of Botany Bay with a Pome under each arm.


Rotorboy

[cl12pv2s]

"When I was a lad, we used to have to get up at 4 o'clock, 2 hours before we went to bed. Rub sticks together to start t' fire for t' kettle. Then we had to put t' helicopter together with out any tools. After that we had to wash helicopter clean, licking t' grease off with our tongues. To finish off, we had to de-ice t' blades with the warmth from under our armpits, push helicopter out onto t' ramp (no wheels). You were lucky!"


Ha! You two sound like the two old grumpy men from the Muppets! Well at least they were funny in their grumpiness.

Guys, get a life! I strongly suggest you go and read the words of Bob Dylan's 'The Times, They are A-Changing'...because they have!

Don't go blaming the wanabees for the situation today. It's called 'Supply and Demand'. You should be complaining to the CAA for making the UK training so unbelievably over-the-top, so that people go to the US to get a more practical helicopter rating and not one which is designed for jet traffic over the Atlantic. And while you're at the CAA, ask them why the Airspace is so restrictive for GA. Next go to the government and complain about the price of fuel. After that, take a trip down to the stock exchange (if it hasn't been sold to the Germans!) and complain about the price of the US dollar compared to the rest of the world. Lastly, complain to the employers in the helicopter industry, for not paying more for flight instructors, thus attracting more experienced pilots.

BUT don't blame the new pilots for the state of the industry today. Blame those that shaped the industry to what it is...the old timers!

ChairmanoftheBoard, I see you're from Oz...reason why I didn't go there...Less than a 1000 registered helicopters and over 3000 certified pilots!

SUPPLY and DEMAND!

As I said, times have changed. I cannot blame a pilot-to-be, for doing whatever he / she can to get the foot in the door. You guys need to see that and either get over it, do something about it or move on.

As for HAI, well it is not surprising that HAI will get the Lion's share of moans and gripes...that's because it is the Lion. Makes it easy to have a dig at it...doesn’t it.

Actually, most people who have a gripe with HAI do so for the same reasons....

a) They weren't the hotshot that they thought they were, and so took longer to get through the course than they budgeted for.
b) They weren't the hotshot that they thought they were, and so didn't get hired on like they were so sure they would.
c) Were generally the sort of whingers and moaners...the sort of people that wouldn't be good on a team, and so didn't get hired on like they were so sure they would.
d) Need someone to blame that doesn’t include themselves!

Most other people are generally happy with the place.

Hmmm...rotorboy, I see you seem to know so much about the place...what's your story? Let me guess…the grapes were sour anyway?

Chairman of the BOARD, you said "Get off your arse and find out about the visa requirements"

What do you think the guy who asked was doing...yes, he was getting off is arse and trying to 'find out' about the visa requirements! If you're not going to help him than don't bother posting.

When I first came to this list...I thought, “Great, a place I can 'find out' about things.” Isn't that what it’s for? Or is it just for grumpy old men to have cheap digs at the newbies?

When I first came to this list...I didn't know that there was a search function that actually worked well. (You have to agree most web page search functions are rubbish.) So what do you do, you boldly step out from the dark and post. There's nothing wrong with that, eh?

Now then boys, before I sign off, let me just say that I really thought your posts were very high quality rants. No real substance, no good ideas...all the qualities of a good rant 'n' rave. Really gave the impression that you have a chip (or fry) on your shoulder about something. Well done!

Regards,

cl12pv2s

[Decks]

Folks,
Just another insight....
At CHC in Ireland there are 11 ex HAI grads. Around Europe there are many more at both the big and smaller operators. I think something like 1 in 3 pilots at Norsk are ex HAI. Go to sim training in Stavanger and if you look around the hotel dining room at breakfast you are nearly always gonna run into an old student or someone you knew from the states. And no I'm not making that up.
Its true that not everyone makes a career out of it, but its still true that for those that really stick at it that they more often than not come thru in the end. The best advice I ever got was from my flight examiner was to keep making all the sacrifices till I had every rating I wanted... ie FAA ATP, JAA ATP AND any of the types I needed. I got some good breaks but lots who didnt have done well too.
The industry has followed the same cycles since the sixties...it has changed very little. On a brighter note for us Europeans is that some of the military parapublic work has gone civil..eg all the Irish Coastguard contracts, the HM Coastguard contracts. This is likely to continue accross Europe. Thanks to the boom of the late nineties here in Ireland the number of corporate/private machines is now well over 100.
HAI never promises anything more than good training. Its a big school and like all big companies it has its issues. The good news is that many of those same issues remain throughout your career. Go to a big company and see how you get jerked around trying to get online due to availablity of instructors, aircraft etc. I know its not exactly the same situation but the reasons are. I worked at a small school... one that promised the world and believe me the issues were still the same... but the bu****** was often ten times worse.
If you read thru the HAI website, the info. on careers and pay is very accurate. The system of low time instructors is debated all the time but it works and always has. Many of the ex mil pilots are instructed by low timers too but because its on 206's or 500's we all seem to think its much better.

And as far as the BS form old timers... get used to it. You'll be hearing war stories from tossers when you hit the 20'00 hr mark..or so I'm told.

[rotorboy]

Nope no sour grapes here, just dont like how some of these schools steal money from students and the image they give the industry.

HAI had a very good rep for a long time but seems to have been down a raod driven by money.

TIMES HAVE CHANGED:
There is heaps of work if you have 2000 plus hours, utility back ground , etc or want to fly ems. It most deffenitly has not changed for the 200 hour wonder. I dont mean to sound bitter, I am deffenitly not, these guys just dont have a clue of what they are in for.... It doesnt help that many of these schools paint a rosy picture either.. The only thing I balme wannabe for is not doing suffient homework and being naieve.... I did my home work ( its been a couple of years) and fully knew what to expect... From reading these post , it is obivous they dont....

Before you thrash me, mayby they should hit the search function.

FYI all training done in r22, priate at 50hr, instrument at 100, cpl and cfi at 150, ..... wasnt a hot shot, just determned to make it work and serious about my career. Found a job before I finished and have never not had work.

RB

[Decks]

Eh sorry but I disagree. Times have not changed. Some of the older civvie guys I have worked with will tell you the exact same story for the eighties and nineties. When I was at HAI I remeber the C.P. saying that the first job was the easiest but the first turbine was the hardest. Needless to say I was gutted. Suffice to say he has long since gone on to bigger and better things.

[rotorboy]

Agree to disagree.

If you have a 1000 hrs and a heart beat at the moment there is the gulf ( begging for guys), tours in Veags, the Ditch and AK (begging too), getting turbine time these days is easy.


RB

[Simon853]

Do you really think your going to finish and get a flight instruction job and a career? I don’t see that attitude at all, especially here on Rotorheads. Be ready for tough times, sacrifice and heartache. That’s just the realitly of it.


I don't believe i gave that impression in my post at all. The discussion was about whether training in the US under the J1 scheme was somehow naive, and simply throwing away money.

I'm well aware of the difficulties. But, J1 is still my best option. I could do my training in the UK and then hope to find an instructing position (after making up the 150 hour shortfall before doing the CFI of course - another £30k) or I could budget to be able to live without work cheaper in the US and hope to find a position in a much larger industry.

I'm under no illusions about the sacrifices I'm making either. I'm funding my training using equity from my house, enough to get me through CFI and IR if need be. And yes, I will probably still struggle afterwards. But then I'll be in the same boat had I gone a different route.

I think that many of the "old timers" have an unnecessarily dim view of wannabes' expectations because they don't believe we'd willingly go into this with our eyes open, and that we must be the poor victims of someone's rose-tinted advertising campaign. But for those of us who desperately want to do it, yes we are! I've spent 8 months researching, talking to people, reading hear, scouring the net. I know how difficult it may very well be. And I *still* want to do it, one way or the other.

So, my choice comes down to this:

Train in the UK to CPL at cost of £45k. Build 150 hours, cost of £35k, do CFI £9k, try and get a job, plus IR at £30k. *Hopefully* I might be able to get an instructing job while pounding the North Sea with resumes. That's a £119k outlay.

Or, take advantage of the J1, if only for the cheaper costs:

JAA+FAA CPL+CFI at £32k, CFII £5k. Hour build while looking for work within the second year before doing a JAA CFI, worst case 150 hours paid with no return: £15k, JAA CFI £5k. Total £57k.

Am I really naive to want to go to the US to do it? And the reality of job shortages are the same no matter how I choose to go about it.

Si

I missed out the IR from the US options, adding £5k (all prices from memory), but it's still financially the best option.

[Bravo73]

Nothing to do with this thread but has anyone else noticed how our ol' buddy, SASless has developed a new 'friend', SASloss??? (See poster above).


Now back to the thread.

[cl12pv2s]

Hello,

Well I think we are all agreed that the road is long and hard!

Rotorboy, I agree with you that many students are maybe a little naive about the challenge the industry faces. However, most students are not. Most of them do a great deal of research into their school selection and for whatever reasons make their decision.

Logically, if this is where they 'start' their research (as most do), then they are of course going to sound naiive! They have to start somewhere!

I don’t think the flight schools are as malicious as you seem to think they are. A business is a business. The business is trying to take the student’s money, and is in competition with other businesses. Anyone who thinks that the flight school is going to be their best friend really hasn’t got a handle on reality. I can’t see how you can accuse a flight school of ‘steeling’ someone’s money. A flight school thinks of number 1, as should the student.

That’s the harsh reality of life. If you are naive to that fact, than you’ll loose out. It is the same in any industry. So how can you blame the flight school.

Also, I don’t think it is any coincidence that most foreign students arrive at the same decision…HAI. This school is simply filling a gap in the market. There are no underhand marketing tactics or false promises. As I said previously, it’s a case of supply and demand…and the school that meets that demand will get the business.

If you have a 1000 hrs and a heart beat at the moment there is the gulf ( begging for guys), tours in Veags, the Ditch and AK (begging too), getting turbine time these days is easy.

Rotorboy, your comment is only true for those with the right to live and work in the US. For the foreign student, it is still (and always will be) a challenge to land that first job.

My advice to anyone on or starting a J1 is start preparing early. What are you going to do when that J1 visa expires? So start getting visa applications in early. Get yourself married to an American early. Enrol to a JAA ground school early. Muscle your way onto the company turbine aircraft early. Do whatever you need to do, but do it early.

This is where I see most people drop out. The 2 years on the J1 visa flies by, and suddenly they are stuck…faced with maybe a year of no flying while they take exams and look for jobs.

Personally, it is none of my business or care, the path someone takes to get ahead. If I could then I would. If I started at the same time as someone else, and he got ahead by a different route, then so be it! I don’t see why you are so personally aggrieved by these guys wanting to go over on the J1 to HAI. As Decks says, there are a great number of HAI grads working the European industry. If the name helps (and I can assure you it does) then why not use it. As we all know, jobs are about a little luck and ‘who you know’.

I agree , why don’t these people do a search here (I am not going to provide the link) but this was discussed late last year. Most people here already know how I feel about that one.

Lastly, why are you so personally put out by people not searching? I worry about people being killed in wars or tsunamis, that sort of thing. Not because some guy didn’t use a search. If I feel moved I will either answer the question again, point the newbie in the direction of the search function, or ignore the post…let someone else deal with it. But I don’t take it personally at all!



Cl12pv2s

[Simon853]

Although about a third of the people at these "factory" schools are there on daddy's money


Oh, I so wish!!
Actually my parents are really supportive of my decision, though they are naturally concerned that I'm selling my house to pay for it. As it happens they did look into trying to release some equity in lieu of inheritence to help me out, but the Gypo camp next to their house rendered the place unvaluable... still it's good to have their support. And if it comes to it they'll provide me with somewhere to live afterwards while I'm washing helicopters for pennies..:D

Si

[organ donor]

Simon
Just a quick thought..
You mentioned in one of your posts that you only have two options, either go to HAI, or stay in the UK. The Uk is expensive, and has little scope for work, but HAI is cheaper, and has little scope for work.
There are ,of course, other places where it is relatively cheap to train, and where there is a very good chance of some commercial work to help you get a foot on the ladder.
It is always difficult to get that first job, but I think with a bit more research you will find there are more options than the USA J1, or UK route.

[Simon853]

Organ Donor,
Yes, you are right. There are other options, but so far as the JAA licence is concerned training in Europe is cost prohibitive wherever I go, and language (outside the cockpit presumably) would be a difficulty for me in many places.

As far as I know, the only JAA approved helicopter school outside of the EU is HAI. I've visited four flying schools in the UK, and they all said that if I'm hoping to work in the UK afterwards, but I have to do it abroad re cost, then HAI should be my first choice. (One actually said only choice, but obviously there will be many exceptions to that rule already gainfully employed I'm sure.)

However, I'm always willing to review alternative options, but I felt that training to the JAA syllabus would simplify things greatly. Saving a few grand but making things harder might be a false economy. And I like the idea of the school environment. I know there'll be less exposure to the grizzled oldies, who's knowledge and experience is invaluable, but I believe there'll be great benefit to me of studying around a lot of other people. I'm not quite the spring chicken myself any more, and I think I'm going to need that culture and competition to help it all sink in!

One of the benefits that HAI offers over UK integrated schools is a pay-as-you-go policy. So, if I did find it difficult to get flight time, or the instruction was poor, I could leave after the PPL phase and go to South Africa, NZ or wherever to build hours. (CabAir for example make a point of stating that they'll aggressively pursue for the balance of funds if a student leaves mid-course for (almost) any reason.)

You state there are places where chances of work are better, but that's the information that is the most difficult to find because of course no-one is ever able to make promises (quite rightly.)

I know I'm breaking the "you must use Search for all of your knowledge, young Padawan" rule here, but if anyone really does know a better way, then please let me know. I believe I've examined all the options fairly, but am more than happy to be educated.

Si

[organ donor]

Simon,

I think you are right in thinking that HAI is the only JAA approved training centre outside the EU, and if you want a JAR licence then these are your only options. It will be worth asking the CAA how to convert foreign licences to JAR, to see if the cost would be prohibitive.
Of course, the problem is once you have the JAR ticket you are still pretty unemployable due to lack of hours, unless you go down the instructing route, or have friends in convenient places.
I understand advertising is frowned upon here so don't want to receive the wrath of the moderators but there is a school in SA who will place their students in work once they have completed their licence. This gives them the opportunity to build some commercial experience so that they are in a better position to gain work when they return to their home countries. feel free to PM me if this is of any interest to you.

On another note, I would stay well away from schools who don't offer a pay as you go policy, but I can't see how they have a right to withold money if you decide to go elsewhere?

[Simon853]

organ donor,
PM sent, but I think I know where you meant.
For various reasons I had discounted it long ago, possibly for illeducated reasons at the time. I shall take another look and give it serious consideration.

Si

[organ donor]

Simon,

Sent you a reply, hope it will be of some help.

OD

[wesp]

HAI is not the only option. There is one other school offering JAA Helicopter training and J1 visa. I don't know anything about their quality.

What I do know (I'm at HAI now), it's a great school. They have very well maintained helicopters and a quite a number of new Schweizers and still more to come. They are most likely the largest private helicopter school in the world.

The quality of training is very good. It's true that a lot of the instructors are low time, but trained to a very high standard by very, very, very experienced CFI instructors. The CFI training doesn't take 2 weeks like a lot of other schools but they train you far beyond the standard needed for the checkride.

That goes actually for all the training you do at HAI the focus on getting you ready for the operation not just a ticket.

The aircraft and instructor availabilty however is a big issue. You have to fight to get you're flights in. If you're not really on top it takes you a long time to get finished. But I think that always the case if you're not on top of things.

I do have to say I'd rather fly a bit less, in well maintained helicopters getting good instruction, as to flying around in old crappy stuff waiting for a 'real' engine failure.

By the way I did my PPL, CPL, CFI in 5.5 months so it can be done. I did not get hired however, but still think it is a good school.

There's not a lot of jobs out there at the moment, but getting your tickets doesn't automatically mean you get a job and it's just like any other education.

[murdock]

Kind of missed all the discussion for the last few days being away. But as Chariman has had a go at what people are doing for training these days am I interested to hear how he did everything and am sure his experiences and knowledge would be great to share with the pprune community, especially for new students. As other people pointed out alright you kninda missed the point of this post, and would be interested to hear how you and SASloss would recommend getting their training if they shouldnt pay for it - "tossing your hard earned pounds away"

Rotorboy, HAI is still relatively cheaper for training than a lot of other schools in the US, and as we all know as the dollar is so **** right now make is a hell of a lot cheaper for foreign people. Personally I believe that getting your Private in the 300 is the best way to start, from there you can do your instrument and commercial in the R22. Finishing at 150 hours wil kinda get you nowhere these days. Even at 200, getting a Robinson instructing job is becoming harder and harder thanks to insurance these days. Something you failed to mention, that if you look at a lot of instructing jobs advertised with R22's the min time is 300 hours. At least if you finish with 100 horus 300C and 100 R22 with your SFAR then you have a chance at both aircraft and all the schools, not limiting yourself in any way. And personally I have not met too many people when being interviewed that asked me did you wash helicopters before your flight training to help them decide to hire you.

I have met people from schools all over the US and they all have their fair share of dropouts and people who dont succeed in a helicopter career after training. A bit random to be saying that it only happens at HAI. Naturally there might be more from HAI, but lets look at figures, they have the biggest flight school in the world. So of course you can say more people drop out from there or dont make a career out of it, if you have over 100 students and 10% dropout then thats 10 students. Whereas a school with 50 students and the same 10% dropout then thats only 5. Pretty simple. And also as we all know HAI is primarily a school with foreign students, again a major reason why people will not get a career out if it, as its harder to get a job when returing to Europe. Using visas to their best is not about beating the system, its about getting the most you can from it and people offering you their experiences and knowledge.

Someone is always going to make money in these schools. Thats why they are a business and thats what business' do. Make money! So its not about people strealing your money or you giving it away, its about the best way you spend it for yourself. And when new students ask questions about where to go and how to do things, they are trying to find out the best way to spend their money.

On a side note Chariman, generalising with statements like "your pommie brethen" and "you English" aint really appreciated. If you are from Australia you would be more of a pmmie than I would be. This is an international forum. Try to keep that in mind!!

[TheFlyingSquirrel]

I am actually stunned as I have just found out what I need to do to fly in the States now at PPL level. $68 to the FAA at Oklahoma and a two month wait to get checked out for security with them and with the CAA here - Then I walk into my nominated FAA office in the US to collect my license on receipt of their acceptance letter. ( Which you could do on the spot prior to 9.11 ) Then I have to nominate a flying training organisation in the States at $130 per organisation requested. You pay on acceptance by the school ! If you change your mind and go elsewhere, yep, another $130 please !! ( This does not apply if you already have a type rating on an aircraft and just want to do some solo flying. ) Also £16 to the CAA to support their 'mutual' agreement with the FAA. ( I have been told by some FBO's that the TSA is still letting alien students train on a visa waiver due to the current regulation uncertainties - at the discression of individual schools !! ) If you have a CPL, you will be issued with a PPL until you pass the FAA examinations and have undertaken the required training and examiner checkride.

Click here to sign up with the TSA ( $130 per selected FTO - not all schools have authority to issue Visas if required. )

Transport Safety Authority Sign Up (https://www.flightschoolcandidates.gov)

and here with the FAA at Oklahoma ( this requires a $68 AMEX cheque as a processing fee. )

FAA Oklahoma Sign Up (http://registry.faa.gov/docs/verify61-75.pdf)

and here to locate the CAA SRG/1160 form ( the CAA require £16 with the form to process the FAA's request for info about you ! )

CAA 1160 form download (http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?categoryid=175&pagetype=87&groupid=612)

and here to learn about converting JAA to FAA....

Alien Pilots instructions (http://faa.gov/avr/afs/flightinstruction/index.cfm)

You now have to be WELL prepared....Good Luck !:ok:

[pilotwolf]

THS... cheaper to sit the FAA exams and checkride in the UK first?

I know there used to be a place in (??)Norwich which did the FAA writtens and theres at least one FAA examiner in the UK I think.

Anyone know if this is possible?

PW

[murdock]

It is true that things have tightened up since 9/11, but there is nothing much you can do about the FAA security fee, and if you go to a school on a J1 or M1 visa you cant change schools anyway as the sponsor will revoke your visa if you go to another school, so changing your mind to go to another school doesnt realy matter. And since I think there are only 3 schools in the States that currently offer the J1 or M1 this isnt really a problem.

As far as I am aware you can recieve training from an FAA instructor in a November reg aircraft anywhere and it counts towards training for FAA licenses, but I dont think you can do the written tests in the UK. According to the CATS testing website you can only do them in the US, Germany, Japan, South Korea and the United Arab Emirates. But you can get the FAA Testprerp books and study all you like so that you can do the tests straight away when you get to the States. And if you get an AOPA membership I think there is a 10% discount for each written test.

[TheFlyingSquirrel]

Just received confirmation from the FAA at Oklahoma that I can collect my FAA license from my nominated Flight Standards Office in the USA. It's taken the FAA and CAA two weeks to sort this out - Must admit, that's pretty impressive for two government agencies, so thanks to them.

[ralfm]

Hi I'm planning on getting a J-1 visa to do my CPL and instuctors courses over in the States. Does anyone have any experience of Heliflight in Fort Lauderdale? Any idea how likely it is to get a job instructing after training? Also any idea what the pay is like - I've heard about $12 an hour. I'd appreciate any advice. Thanks.

[IntheTin]

Check your PM's mate. :ok:

[Lioncopter]

Check your Pm's again ;)

[Revolutionary]

IntheTin, Lioncopter,

Could you post the gist of your PM's to ralfm here on the forum? I would be interested to hear your experiences and opinion of this school and the J1 Visa. Thanks,

[Vinther]

Hey ralfm !! Im planning on doing the exact same thing.. :E

I heard a rumor that Heliflight currently had some problems with issueing J-1 visa's.. Hope it's just a rumor !! :sad:

So anybody who have info about or experiance with Heliflight, please share or post it !! :ok:

[ralfm]

Thanks for you replies sounds like there is a problem with issuing the J-1 visa at the moment. Anyone know of other schools that can issue them? HAI is the only other one I've found and it hasn't had a very good write up elsewhere on this forum.

[Lioncopter]

I did not want to reply on the Forum as I am an instructor at heliflight and felt it would seem like i was advertising.

At the moment Heliflight Can not issue J-1 Visa's. This is due to a change in ownership (which is actually for the better). Because there was a change in ownership but the relevent paperwork was not submitted to the government by the person responible for it (who is now no longer with the company) we can not issue the visa untill the paperwork is sorted out.

Before it might not have been such a big problem but now with how twitchy the US government is with Visa'a and flight school you can imagine the head ache.

The last information we (the instructors) were given was about a month ago when the person now dealing with it said 3 months, so that should mean in about 2 month we should be good to issue them.


Ryan McPherson

[ralfm]

The only school I've found at the moment offering a J-1 visa is HAI - are there any others?

[genocchio]

I was speaking to a guy who went to a fixed wing school that issued J-1 visas. He did his private fixed wing Part 141 and then went on to get his FAA rotorcraft ratings at the same school.

Granted that the school that he went to was a fixed wing school and only had two helicopters, but he believes that he still got good training with a smaller price tag (fixed wing time).

This may be an option that you might want to look at. I think Florida Aviation Career Training in St Augustine in Florida can issue J-1 visas. (Oh, He did not go to this school)

Hope this helps....

[fluffy5]

hi,
talking about J 1 visas I have a few questions:
1)how long r they valid for 12 months ?
2)For the course of your training at the company then the remainder hopefully working at the company for what ever your time limit is.

I have a friend interested in ppl a in the states with a view to go airline faa .

anyone to help ?

[IntheTin]

The J-1 is good for 2 years. :ok:

[Cross-eyed]

Big changes ahead for U.S. flight schools and their foreign students. It will be interesting to see how it plays out, especially for those already enrolled and looking forward to that extra year of time-building CFI work in the U.S.

News from HAI (abridged for this post): "Helicopter Association International (HAI) has learned that a State Department announcement is expected shortly that will remove all flight training schools from the Exchange Visitor Program. This program has brought hundreds of thousands of students, including many thousands of pilot trainees, to the United States on J-1 visas since 1961.

Unlike the conventional student visa (M-1), the J-1 visa allows its holder to remain in the United States for a total period of two years during which time he or she completes approximately one year of formal training followed by one year of practical work experience as a flight instructor.

The United States has been a leader in aviation training for many decades, and changes to our immigration policy with regard to foreign flight training are likely to cause a substantial reduction in the number of foreign students trained in the U.S. Further, as the number of foreign flight students declines, there is concern that many flight schools will be forced to close their doors."

[justanothernumber]

The United States has been a leader in aviation training for many decades ...

... in volume, yes.

But WOW, what an opportunity for flying schools in other countries now! Thanks USA! :ok:

[47Deadbeat]

Re J1 Visas.

I couldn't find any reference to this on the HAI website.

I wonder will existing J1 visa holder be able to continue their employment and or training if this rumour is true. Pprune is a rumour network after all!

If it is indeed true then big changes will be afoot in the US flight training market.

47DB

[genocchio]

Cross-eyed

Please could you post the link to the web page that you saw this on rotor.com.

I've had a look and can find nothing....???

[PhilJ]

theres something on http://www.verticalreference.com in the flight training forum. Not exactly the news i was wanting seeing as I go out on a J-1 visa in june!

[Cullear1]

I wonder is this anything to do with the light aircraft that flew into the no fly area over the White House last week?

[Lightning_Boy]

After the new pilot checks with the TSA, that have just been implemented and the millions of $ that foreign pilots bring to the US economy every year, I find it hard to believe that there gonna stop the J-1 program (for pilot training).

I'm on the J-1 program and have heard nothing about.

Blue side up!!! :ok:

[Magjam]

I can see a few schools having to close down if this happens.

This is really not good news for aspiring pilots around the world, let`s hope at least some good comes out of it...

Magjam

[Spunk]

... but it`s good news for European flight schools.:}

[moosp]

...and even better for Canadian flight schools. You've now got the whole of South America as your catchment area. Go Canuks!

As for the spin off for the European schools, don't hold your breath. Southern hemisphere is still way cheaper, and most seasons have a better weather factor for training. OZ, NZ, SA, Brasil are looking good.

Maybe TSA stands for "To Stop Aviation."

[bondu]

Good news for European flight schools?
Yes! I can hear the cash registers ringing already with the new much increased rates!
Not so good for the wannabes of the future!!:mad:

[Simon853]

Surely removing flight schools from the J1 scheme doesn't have to stop people from attending courses, simply being allowed to work in the US afterwards?

(Though I guess they'd have to extend the validity of the M1 visa to a year in that case.)

Maybe a compromise can be reached?

Well, I *was* supposed to be attending HAI this September for a year, but since I've yet to sell my house that was looking increasingly unlikely anyway. Maybe my best bet is to stay put for the moment at least...

Si

[Patrick Corr]

I'm pleased to report that this issue seems to have been resolved. Last Wednesday the J-1 Program manager sent us a letter stating that we could not have additional visas because they were about to announce the termination of the program. The letter gave the impression that it would be immediate. Since then a lot of political water has passed under the bridge and today I received a phone call from the same gentleman with an entirely different story. He told me he would immediately authorize all the visas we want and that it would be at least two years before any substantive changes take place. He thinks that the program will transfer into the Department of Homeland Security for management purposes but will remain otherwise unchanged.

This is a big relief for us of course. I think the Program manager jumped the gun and did not anticipate the speedy reaction from the aviation community, especially the Helicopter Association and AOPA. We've put up with a lot of silly new rules since 9/11 and there comes a point where enough is enough.

The bottom line is that this mini-crisis appears to be resolved and anyone planning on coming to the States on a J-1 should not worry about whether it will be available. For those of us in the business we have some work to do to make sure that the promises we received today will hold up for the future.

Patrick Corr
President,
Helicopter Adventures, Inc.

[Cross-eyed]

gennochio - The only link I have is a survey at http://www.rotor.com/0516survey.htm to gather impact feedback. As of this date there is no press release on the Helicopter Assn' website. My post was partial text of an e-mail sent to Helicopter Association International membership who perform training.

Based on Patrick's post, who is in the know as a Helicopter Association board member as well as one of the largest training providers, this appears to have been nipped in the bud, hopefully permanently, by the quick reflexes of the organized aviation community.

[ATPMBA]

This will cause a helicopter pilot shortage in the US and abroad. Many of the J1 guys instructed in the US and then went with up to 1,000 hours.

[mortennb]

When you are a student in the US on a J-1 visa. Are you only allowed to work as a CFI?
Many people say its like a grey zone , whats right?

[i4iq]

Hi Morten

You're only allowed to work in something directly related to your field of study and only with the specific permission and written approval of your flight school.

As far as I understand it, it's not very grey at all!

[mortennb]

Hi Morten

You're only allowed to work in something directly related to your field of study and only with the specific permission and written approval of your flight school.

As far as I understand it, it's not very grey at all!

Well, I have been studying to become a helicopter pilot. But the school say your only allowed to work as a CFI, and I dont know why.

[i4iq]

Because it's supposed to be work experience as a CFI - which is what you have trained to become.

Check out http://www.visapro.com/J1/J1-Visa.asp and the FAQ section.

Bizarre thing is, if you were married, your wife could apply for a work permit and be able to do whatever she liked!

[mortennb]

Because it's supposed to be work experience as a CFI - which is what you have trained to become.

Check out http://www.visapro.com/J1/J1-Visa.asp and the FAQ section.

Bizarre thing is, if you were married, your wife could apply for a work permit and be able to do whatever she liked!

Yeah, have been reading that. And a friend of mine who has a greencard says its a grey zone. Because it says that your allowed to gain experience from something directly related to your field of study.
And ofcourse I am taking CFI education since its almost the only way, but my friend told me the field of study is helicopter pilot, not CFI. CFI is something extra.

Correct me if I am mistaken.

[Simon853]

When I was planning to go to HAI I asked that same question of them. Their answer was that you are only allowed to work legally as a flight instructor on the J1. (But agreed, the definition itself doesn't seem to rule anything else out, since it states you're allowed to work using the professional qualification you trained for, which it could be argued is CPL, not CFI.)

Not only that but I believe the flight school administering the J1 also has responsibility for you sticking to the terms of the visa during your whole stay.

Si

[i4iq]

Simon853

You're right - which is why the US Govt want the work approval in writing.

The point about the J1 is that it is for cultural exchange purposes - not for getting a "regular" job.

A PM to HillerBee might help. He's been there and done it with J1's.

[MrEdd]

This is how i have understood it.
If your are employed bt any company you need to work as a CFI.
Now if that is 1hour in a year and you then do other jobs for the company dosen´t matter. You do need to do CFI work for them but as i wrote if it´s full time onl CFI work or 1hr CFI and the rest ex sling load it should be ok. This i how i have understood the rules.

BR Henrik Bjorklund

[mortennb]

This is how i have understood it.
If your are employed bt any company you need to work as a CFI.
Now if that is 1hour in a year and you then do other jobs for the company dosen´t matter. You do need to do CFI work for them but as i wrote if it´s full time onl CFI work or 1hr CFI and the rest ex sling load it should be ok. This i how i have understood the rules.

BR Henrik Bjorklund

Yes, this is also how I have heard it before. Witch is pretty stupid if you ask me. And why they do it this way i dont know.
I got a set off regulations from a friend that might help.. Will check more.

[mortennb]

my j1 is stamped 'flight instruction only'


Are you talking about your visa in the passport?
If yes, my doesnt say anything about that....:confused:

[mortennb]

The regulations:
§ 62.74 Student employment.
(a) Students meeting the definition
listed in § 62.4(a)(1)(ii) and (iii) may engage
in student employment pursuant
to § 62.23(g).
(b) The responsible officer or alternate
responsible officer shall update
the exchange visitor’s SEVIS record to
reflect the details of such employment
pursuant to § 62.23(g) (1). An update of
the SEVIS record constitutes compliance
with § 62.23(g)(2) (iv).
§ 62.4
(a) Student. An individual who is:

(1) Studying in the United States:
(i) Pursuing a full course of study at
a secondary accredited educational institution;
(ii) Pursuing a full course of study
leading to or culminating in the award
of a U.S. degree from a post-secondary
accredited educational institution; or
(iii) Engaged full-time in a prescribed
course of study of up to 24 months duration
conducted by:
(A) A post-secondary accredited educational
institution; or
(B) An institute approved by or acceptable
to the post-secondary accredited
educational institution where the
student is to be enrolled upon completion
of the non-degree program;
§ 62.23 (g)
Student employment. Exchange visitor

students may engage in part-time
employment when the following criteria
and conditions are satisfied.
(1) The student employment:
(i) Is pursuant to the terms of a
scholarship, fellowship, or
assistantship;
(ii) Occurs on the premises of the
post-secondary accredited educational
institution the visitor is authorized to
attend; or
(iii) Occurs off-campus when necessary
because of serious, urgent, and
unforeseen economic circumstances
which have arisen since acquiring exchange
visitor status.
(2) Exchange visitor students may engage
in employment as provided in
paragraph (g)(1) of this section if the:
(i) Student is in good academic
standing at the post-secondary accredited
educational institution;
(ii) Student continues to engage in a
full course of study, except for official
school breaks and the student’s annual
vacation;
(iii) Employment totals no more than
20 hours per week, except during official
school breaks and the student’s annual
vacation; and
(iv) The responsible officer has approved
the specific employment in advance
and in writing. Such approval
may be valid up to twelve months, but
is automatically withdrawn if the student’s
program is terminated.

[i4iq]

Mortenb

I think you may not be reading the correct information for your situation.

As a J1 student, you can work any number of hours. You are not limited to the 20 hours detailed. This sounds more like an F1 or M1 scenario.

I'd check the section again, although I think the approval still needs to come from the officer.

[Bus Allergy]

Why not train in an environment which does not require you to jump through all these ridiculous hoops just to enter the country?
Just the telephone call to arrange your visa appoinment is charged at a rate of £72/hour. (London).
All these charges, the bureaucracy, the outdoor waiting; it should be telling you something...
America is only worth visiting should you have access to a time machine.
Good luck anyway.

[mortennb]

bus allergy:

oh, you mean Britain, where they charge you 700 pounds just to sit your CPL checkride, 200 pounds just to print and issue your licence, 160 pounds for an LPC, 70 pounds for a type rating renewal, and 2000 pounds to study for the ATPL/CPL exams, and then you pay the equivalent US$400 to train on an R22, and then after you've spent 60,000 pounds... you end up doing trial lessons at weekends for 2 years just to build hours

and we wonder why people train abroad?

a bit of form-filling and a few hours queuing is not really many hoops to jump through to get a J1 visa

Dont think you can explain it better than that. :)

The R-22 is an avarage 200$/hour in the US btw.

[Jolarix]

I'm a Canadian citizen (Vancouver) who wants to train for CPL[H] and CFII and IR in the USA (Quantum Helicopters, Arizona).

If I get all my visas and permits to live/train/work in the USA, how can I use my FAA CPL[H] as a Canadian equivalent if I wish to return home to work in Canada, after my training?

Is there a special Canadian test I should take, or will my existing FAA license be sufficient to work in Canada, aswell as the USA?

[dogpaddy]

First a little bit of background information:

UK JAA PPL(H)
75 hours TT in Enstrom/Schweizer.

I would like to go to the States to complete my training but would like to do so in the most efficient manner possible.

My questions are:

1. What qualifications can I train for on a M1 visa without ruining my chances of getting a J1 visa?

2. Is there a limit to the number of hours I can already have flown when applying for a J1 visa? I seem to have the figure of 100 hours in my mind but I can't remember if that is from a reliable source.

Thanks,

dogpaddy

[HillerBee]

You can train up to PPL/IR on a M-1 visa. As soon as you have a CPL it's over. You're apparantly only allowed to have a 100 hrs, but I can't find any official reference to that. When I got a J-1 I had 190 hrs already and nobody even asked about them.

However it's not a certainty that you get a J-1 after you had a M-1, I know there where some people who couldn't get a J-1 anymore. (Don't know the reason for that)

One thing you have to leave the country to get a J-1 and quite frankly you have to be really glad when you're in. Getting a visa doesn't mean anything until you passed immigration at the airport, they can decide to send you back like that.

[i4iq]

Not getting a J1 after an M1 is pretty rare and typically its from certain countries where they consider you more likely to stay illegally, after your visa expires.

The M1 is by far the most advantageous route if you get it to work as it leaves so much time on your visa to get the 1000 hours.

[dogpaddy]

Thanks for the information HillerBee & i4iq.

I have begun to realise that the visa process is highly subjective and despite what it states on the visa in your passport, the final decision whether you actually get into the country or not is the official that you meet at the arrival airport.

Hillerbee,

Are you sure that it is only the CPL that prevents issuance of a J-1 visa? Does that mean I can get IR, CFI and CFII qualified on an M1 visa?

After reading a lot on this forum I am led to believe that you were at HAI in Florida. Did you go the M1 then J1 route? And if not were there any others that were taking that route? I am also intending to go to HAI and I'm curious if the school would raise any objections.

Thanks,

dogpaddy

[i4iq]

Thanks for the information HillerBee & i4iq.

I have begun to realise that the visa process is highly subjective and despite what it states on the visa in your passport, the final decision whether you actually get into the country or not is the official that you meet at the arrival airport.


It's highly unlikely that you'll get turned back. There are some groups on Yahoo that discuss the issues a lot, which you might find useful reading.

I believe you are restricted to 150 hours before the J1 is no longer issued. But as you can see from HillerBee's example, some things slip through.

The students I know that have taken the M1/J1 route have not had a problem.

HAI will probably tell you that a J1 is not guaranteed. Of course, they want your money, so it's in their best interest for you to go straight for the J1.

You may also wish to consider Hillsboro Aviation in Oregon, who also offer the J1 but seem to have a faster training program.

[HillerBee]

Thanks for the information HillerBee & i4iq.

I have begun to realise that the visa process is highly subjective and despite what it states on the visa in your passport, the final decision whether you actually get into the country or not is the official that you meet at the arrival airport.

Hillerbee,

Are you sure that it is only the CPL that prevents issuance of a J-1 visa? Does that mean I can get IR, CFI and CFII qualified on an M1 visa?

After reading a lot on this forum I am led to believe that you were at HAI in Florida. Did you go the M1 then J1 route? And if not were there any others that were taking that route? I am also intending to go to HAI and I'm curious if the school would raise any objections.

Thanks,

dogpaddy

You cannot get a CFI without a CPL.

There are people being send back at immigration, if you tell them you're on a J-1 but hope to stay they will send you straight back. They use all kinds of trick questions to find out whether your intentions are genuine, meaning study, gain experience and then go back to your home country.

The M-1->J1 route is also used by students at HAI, but I personally know a few who didn't get the J-1, and where F******

I did the normal J-1 route, graduated in 5.5 months and had plenty of time left on the visa. I actually left early because I got a job offer in the UK.

Do you live in Vienna? I'm in Graz from 5-11 feb.

[dogpaddy]

Thanks once again for the information.

i4iq,

I have considered the Hillsboro route but due to several reasons, both personal and practical, have decided to follow the HAI route. I've had plenty of time whilst saving the money to think about most of the other possibilities :confused:

Thanks for the Yahoo! tip.

HillerBee,

What qualifications did you complete in 5.5 months? From what I've heard about the aircraft/instructor availability, you must have been really pushing it.

Did you manage to get a job with HAI or did you have to move somewhere else? (Weighing up the pros and cons of getting R22 qualified :hmm: )

From what you've both said, I think I'm going to put plan B into action:

start now with the JAA ATPL exams (distance learning) and get them done before I go to the States. I never did fancy opening that can of worms upon my return to the UK. I can then take the flight test in Florida! Any one see any problems with that route?

Do you think that will also help convince the officials about my intentions to return to Europe?

Thanks,

dogpaddy

Yes I do live in Vienna. Have fun in Graz. I've not been there yet so I can't offer you any tips about places to go, things to see. I have heard that it's a lovely city. Are you flying in there to go somewhere else or staying in Graz?

[i4iq]

HillerBee

What were you doing that took 5.5 months if you already had 190 hours before you got the J1?

dogPaddy

You really should get the R22 time - there is relatively little work for purely Schweizer pilots out there. Don't forget, many students don't get hired by HAI and most other schools are using the R22 and increasingly the R44.

Preparation before you go will save you a lot of time.

Showing you have intent to return to your country will help your cause.

[HillerBee]

I had a fixed wing PPL. I'd never flown a helicopter in my life before.

I was CPL(H) with less than 100 hrs. rotary. there aren't many who get their PPL/CPL/CFI done in 5.5 months and certainly not at HAI. It took me 5.5 months because I had to wait 3 weeks before I could start the flying for my CFI, after being in CFI groundschool for 3 weeks.

dogpaddy:
You really have to push it when you want to do it fast, and there (where) people within HAI who didn't like that at all. But you're only there for yourself, the sooner you're ready the sooner you can start working. (I hate the word hour building, when you're a CPL/CFI you're just working and gaining experience)

i4iq:
Where are you doing your training, and what did you achieve sofar? I remember you asking the same sort of questions as dogpaddy about a year ago.

[HELOFAN]

This thread really needs a good updating.

So much has changed from when this thread got meaty.

Alot of the posts I see here are from guys that have been at HAI, got their qualifications and left & gotten jobs LOL.

The supply and demad has changed a lot too as has the schools mentioned here.

Am I missing somethings here?

HF

[manfromuncle]

I don't think much has changed. You can still get an M1, or a J1 via Bristow Academy/Hillsboro. Plenty of CFI jobs in the USA, if you have R22 time, unless you get hired by Bristow Academy (no guarantees though). Bristow Academy are still very very busy, so finishing in the timescales they quote might be an issue. Bristow Academy is still the only place that offers JAA CPL(H) training outside the EU.

Post J1, either marry a US person, start your own business (big investment), work illegally in the US, or go to Canada/South America/Africa/Oz/New Zealand (again, visa issues). Or (as a Brit), come back to Blighty spend a wad on the JAA IR and head up to Aberdeen, or spend a bit more on a JAA FI and carry on instructing for a pittance in the UK.

As I see it that's it.

[griffothefog]

Can someone explain to me why, as the USA's biggest and best allies, the Brits are persona non grata when it comes to work permits? We don't even get any freebies in the green card lotto. If this thread has been run before... shoot me:{

[BlueWhiteSky]

Hello aviators,

I hope this is the right thread to place my question about helicopter add on rating.
I hold a FAA fixed wing commercial licence and like to add a helicopter class rating to it.
What type of TSA check is required and what type of visa?
I do not have any intensions of instructing or working in the U.S ! Just adding a helicopter to my licence for personal pleasure.

Thanks for any help.

[manfromuncle]

https://www.flightschoolcandidates.gov/afsp2/afspindex.py?acct_type=c&section=FQ

[Local Lad]

griffothefrog

i think back in the 80s the UK was suffering from a 'brain drain' of doctors, lawyers etc moving to the US, so thatcher put the kybosh on the visa lottery etc to the US. Making things much more difficult.

[MartinCh]

griffothefrog and local lad,

I dare to disagree with such uninformed and biased opinion.
Yes, it's true that Brits still need visa to US for flight training and longer stay, but look at it this way,

HOW MANY Eastern Europeans or Latinos get their visa denied for some petty reason even if true intentions? WAY MORE than Irish or Brits.
It's all about 'overstaying chances' which are way slimmer for Brits in the US.

I just got my M1 visa appl approved today in Belfast US Consulate. Since I'm going on Czech passport (not even my Slovak as Slovaks have it sh***ier for visas than Czech nationals) though owning up to having Slovak papers as it's required and I've been to US before on summer work visa..
Trust me, I've got my waiting job as the only 'ties to country' and prepared my registration certificate (until full residence and passport) in the UK, career break confirmation they didn't even ask for, certificates from previous years of my life in the UK to show that I'm settled (not forever in aviation).
I didn't feel so confident bearing in mind inequalities in citizenships...

TSA is needed for private, instrument, multi-engine (FW).
I can't even go to US on visa waiver summer 2009 to build some hours.
I got visa in pipeline (literally, as passport has to wait till 1st of March) for PPL H training in summer. So far so good.

BACK TO TITLE OF MY REPLY.
Well, GC or DV ('Diversity Visa') lottery allowances are based on average and/or total number of citizens of a specific country going to the US to live there. Whether they estimate illegals, can't tell right now.
Truth is, the only countries not qualifying are the ones that 'send' lots of folks to US. So there's 'no need for diversity visa programme' for them.

One can claim DV lottery eligibility (or, US call it 'country of chargeability') from birthplace country if citizens, OR ACCORDING TO COUNTRY OF CITIZENSHIP OF SPOUSE. IE, if you're British with say, Algerian wife, you can enter lottery but have to fill it out accordingly. You and your wife/husband can both enter separately, doubling the chance of being drawn.
Then, there's that thing with 'numbering', if you get high number, due to delays and immigrant places taken up by wives and dependent kids, one can forget about finishing the paperwork in time if over 15-20k mark 'case number'. as the won't invite you for chat in time.

GOOD THING IN THIS FOR SOME UK CITIZENS IS THAT PERSONS BORN IN NORTHERN IRELAND DO, I REPEAT DO, QUALIFY FOR DIV VISA LOTTERY.
They consider NI separate country, though part of one state - UK, for the purpose. All you need is to be born in NI even if you never set foot back again. It doesn't matter. I did mine, living in the UK based on birth elsewhere.


ALSO, DON'T moan about not having special treatment. What about Working Holiday Visas? Australia, NZ, Canada, etc etc. I'm starting to get perks with Czech passport such as WHV to NZ from 2004 and Canada from about now.
Still, not Aussie. I'll get that from 2010 with UK passport, but who knows if I'll have time then.

Australia has even smarter system for visas. They require everyone to have visa, but for many countries as a tourist, kind of VWP, it's a matter of online ETA application. No need to go anywhere and feel like beggar asking for visa.
Plus, their assessment levels are different according to purpose of the visit. Even what kind of studies one intends to engage in. Ie Brits are more likely to overstay on certain student visas than other ones, so there are slight differences. Still, if you're AL 1 or 2, you are likely to be able to change or extend visa while in Australia. Not like me and many others..

check it out yourself if you're eligible and want to give it a shot.
Next application window is from October 2008 for about two months.
http://dvlottery.state.gov

[aclark79]

I've said it before, but it bears repeating. Come first on an M1 visa, get your Private and 50 hours into your commercial, then return and come back on a J1. That way you get the maximum time out of your J1, and if your in Oregon, adverse weather doesn't have such an affect on your competitiveness when you go looking for a job....

Or, if you go somewhere else, going M1/J1 gives you more time to get your 1000 hours PIC and then go to OZ/Canada etc... or look at it this way, more time to find an american bird to marry.

[thepross]

The USA looks at the UK and France as the new threat from Muslim Radicals. So the TSA looks real close at all visas coming from you folks...Reality sucks but that's the world we live in.

[locky111]

Hoping someone out there can help me, as I am currently looking at the option of training in the US and obtaining a J1 visa to do so.

I have tried "Google" to find schools that offer the J1 visa and so far I only have come up with Bristow and pelican in the Florida area.

If any one can help with other options and opinions on the school it would be greatly appreciated

[lelebebbel]

Hillsboro Aviation in Oregon is the other major school. Gotta hurry up though, the J1 program ends at the end of this year as far as i know.
That means your J1 will still be valid if you have one, but you won't be able to apply for a new J1 after that date!

[lelebebbel]

You need to speak to an immigration lawyer about it, but generally the answer is: No.
I was in a similiar situation a couple of months ago (working in the US on a J1, been offered a permanent job if work visa could be obtained... no chance).

There are a few different kinds of work visa available (I forgot what they were, I think it's "H" visa thoug), but non of them can be applied to helicopter pilots. Basically, they are all just for positions that at least require 4-year degrees, or people with very special qualifications such as scientists or professors. Pilots do not qualify.

Obtaining a company sponsored permanent work permit (greencard) is generally possible, but it is a very lengthy process and the waiting list is several years. Also, a helicopter pilot position would not qualify anyways, because there are plenty of helicopter pilots in the US already, and it would not be possible for the emploeyer to proof that they couldn't just hire a US citizen for the job.

Sorry for the bad news. Feel free to go talk to an immigration lawyer yourself, you may have other options.


edit: just saw that you are a flight attendant, not a pilot, sorry. I don't think this changes the situation though.

[HillerBee]

Only the company can get one for you, and that's extremely hard (almost impossible) You'd better marry your boyfriend as all problems will be sorted then, you can get a provisional Green Card that way.

[206Fan]

I have a Question.

I hold a FAA PPL/H.

Can I do some Hour Building in America while working on the J1 Visa over the Summer Period? I haven't been over in 4 years so not sure whats changed!

Cheers.

[IntheTin]

I think you can do some hours as long as it's not towards a rating or certificate. And if I remember rightly the J1 is no more and it was only good for 2 years once issued! I may be wrong. That has been known before :} :ok:

[MartinCh]

4 months summer 'J1' is Summer Work/Travel subcategory of J1, not the 'aviation 2 year J1'. Sure you can do whatever you wish. It's proper work visa..

[erika7189]

I'm thinking of doing my flight training at NAC and i would like to rent an apartment close by - I'm also willing to share apartment with another student but having my own bedroom....any suggestions?

[helistoked]

Hello all!

I plan to head to hillsboro aviation next year for a 0 to CFII training on a F-1 visa. I will go together with my spouse - and basically she will get a F-2 visa. Unfortunately she wont get a work permit on a F-2 visa... But it will be essentially that she can find work. I assume that finding a sponsor for an internship to get an J-1 visa for her in the same area (portland) for the same period of time (as my helicopter training) will be a tricky task.

Any advices and experiences made are appreciated!

Thanks and regards!

Florian

[Rusty1983]

Hey guys,


its an old thread, but I wannna update it a little bit, because I am planning already doing my helicopter licence since 3 years and detected a few things.


First of all, for internationals in the US who want to get out with as much hours as possible, it´s crucial to get the F1 visa which allows you to study in the first year and (hopefully) get a job in the second year for building up hours up to 1000 before you get kicked out of the USA if you will get no work permit.
There are 3 big schools in the US who are allowed to issue the F1-Visa: Bristow, Hillsborrow and Mauna Loa Helicopters.


So if you want to do the training as an international its crucial to choose one of the three.


I wanted to start with my training in the first Q2016 at Mauna Loa, but since the ******* Euro droped that hard against the US-Dollar, that forced me to do levelling in new options. But! the US got the biggest benefit with their F1 visa against all other countries on the world where you are able for doing a study like this (please correct me if I am wrong and tell me the countries which have the same benefit) and you are more then less forced of doing the training there if you want to get nearly realistic chances as professional on that competitive market.


Therefore, I wanted to ask you if someone got already experience with the F1 visa?
Is it easy to get and would there be good chances to get after the training a job as CFII for hour building before getting deported, or are the chances that low, that the F1 would be senseless (90% advertising) and it would be better doing the training on any other school on the world with the standard 1 year study visa?


appreciate your feedback,
BR, Rusty

[boratron]

I am in the process of training with Mauna Loa. I live in the UK and applied for their professional pilot programme. I had to go through an application process with them I also had to prove that I have enough money to support myself whilst over there.
This all went ok and they sent me an I 20. I then went onto the U.S. Website and went through all there forms which culminated in visiting the U.S. Embassy in London (you als have to supply your fingerprints to another U.S. Agency that is separate to the visa applications)

I went to the embassy had an interview which lasted approx 1 minute and the visa was approved!.
I now have an F1 visa as of about 3 weeks ago. I'm doing my ppl at the moment and just waiting for the weather to clear and then take my skills test, and then an r22 rating. As soon as this has been done I'm off to Hawaii.

The whole process has been simple but protracted. Just itching to get over there now.

As for work in Hawaii a good percentage of graduates do get accepted to become instructors after graduation but there are no guarantees.

[muermel]

Try to get married in the US guys. Several people from my school did it and most are much better off now. Saved them lot's of money and hassle. Not 14 exams to do etc.. not spending a fortune on an IR (that doesn't get you anywhere right now). You can still come back to Europe in the future if you want to. But then you know you will get a job with those hours you build over there. :ok:

The market is just so much bigger and much more dynamic in the USA. Of course there's more people competing for those jobs but at least you know there's another couple hundred schools to work for if you don't get this gig or at least a couple dozen operators that offer entry level positions for low hour pilots once in a while.

I'm not saying it's easy, but easier than Europe.

[Rusty1983]

nia, of course you are right. But I am pending between US, South Africa and New Zealand and if the US visa is the only benefit (which is not for sure to get a job in the sec. year) then doing the training anywhere else on the world would be cheaper and from the effectiveness more the less similar, then I am trying to go maybe there. Problem is the strong USD compared to the EURO, which kicks the most benefits of doing the training in US.


Yeah boratron, the Pound is much more stronger then the Euro at the moment. If I had pound, there would be no doubt of doing the training in US.

[Helinaut]

Rusty 1983 and everyone else that is thinking of coming to the US as a European to get the flight training done.

If you have the slightest interest to ever fly in Europe or anywhere else besides the US, than there is only one way to get this done. Go to a school, that after a year you WILL have both EASA and FAA License/certificates! Anything else, you will regret down the road. You are not getting it any cheaper than doing both at once in the same school. Bite through it!

I started flying in 1980 in Europe and finally went to the US almost 20 years ago. Since I have been over here, I got calls from many European guys and they all asked what to do in reference to the path to success. I still maintain the same answer to this day. Get EASA and FAA at the same time!

Don't get fooled with job promises, every single student will get the same promise. And there are not that many jobs out there for every single one of them. Yes...I know...you will be better than the other guy, heard it all before :}

With the low oil price, very hard times are here to stay for a while. Talked to many experienced guys with either EASA-FAA-CAA or whatever license. The one license that will get you the most in the coming years, is an EASA ATP.

Once JAA got introduces I was lucky enough to get grandfathered in to a JAA VFR license. Just to maintain that thing is a flipping nightmare! I was thinking about adding an ATP to my EASA CPL and gladly declined after I was told what I had to do. What I am saying is, get everything you can at the beginning! Afterwards there will always be something in your way and the job that just got offered to you requires exactly what you just don't have. By the way, that never ends. After flying for 35 years holding several ATP's - CPL's RW and FW, there is always something else that employer wants that I don't have :ugh:

Whatever you do, I wish you guys all the best and never give up, it is an uphill battle until you retire. But it will be worth it many times :ok:


Build your own dreams, or someone else will hire you to build theirs."
Farrah Gray

[Rusty1983]

hi helinaut,
thanks for your input. if i got the money, i would do every license on the world and every rating which would be needed. the problem is, at the beginning you dont have the money for doing everything and you have to find the best solution where you would get the optimum of training, hours, licences and ratings for starting into a carreer. the topic is, with that high USD at the moment, why should you do the training in US, when you get it cheaper f.e. in new zealand? and that much cheaper, that it would be more worth doing 1 year training in NZ and do conversion afterwards in EU and you ll save money for other trainings at this way got as well also 2 licences.
so the only benefit of the US would be the visa for two years, including a possible job aftr the training as fi! if you dont get this job, doing the fi in US got no more benefits against other countries. and if only 10% would be taken over after the training you have to level if you take this risk or focus more on a different solution.

[Captain Olimar]

Hello aviators,

I hope this is the right thread to place my question about helicopter add on rating.
I hold a FAA fixed wing commercial licence and like to add a helicopter class rating to it.
What type of TSA check is required and what type of visa?
I do not have any intensions of instructing or working in the U.S ! Just adding a helicopter to my licence for personal pleasure.

Thanks for any help.

BlueWhiteSky, have you ever figured that one out? I'm in a similar situation: foreigner (non-resident) with SEL FAA license; no commercial, though. I did the private according to part 141, with an M-1 visa + I-20 form. So the question is, can I do the helicopter add-on rating [part 61?] while visiting as a tourist, without having to apply for another visa?

[Gordy]

Only way to do it is to marry a US citizen.

[swisshelipilot]

Only way to do it is to marry a US citizen.

You also can play the "green card" lottery if you're already married or don't want to marry, but Gordy's method is probably the quickest and easiest way :}

[nomorehelosforme]

Agree with Gordy that is a great way, when you meet with your immigration attorney they will offer you various options including citizenship if you can arrive in the USA with $1m ... long term this might be cheaper than the marriage option!

[nomorehelosforme]

Agree with Gordy that is a great way, when you meet with your immigration attorney they will offer you various options including citizenship if you can arrive in the USA with $1m ... long term this might be cheaper than the marriage option!

[jimiemick]

So far the only ones I have found are

Hillsboro
Mauna Loa
SUU


Any others i should add to the list that are worth looking at?
or any positive or negitive feedback about the ones above?