Shortage......We told you so !!

[The Invisible Man]

Anyone see this report from the CAA. Full account on UK news BBC website.

Air passengers could soon face delays because of a shortage of maintenance engineers, the Civil Aviation Authority has warned.
Up to a quarter of the jobs for avionics engineers remain unfilled and overall the aircraft industry needs more than 3,000 extra staff.

The CAA wants airlines to make more of an effort to recruit apprentices.

Spokesman Tony Ingham said: "If the companies don't react now, you could see more delays, simply because you can't get the aeroplanes out of the hangar on time."

It also states that some Airlines are having to pay their Engineers more than the pilots !!

[balti king]

Let me know which company pays it's aircrew more than it's engineers! Never heard of that and not likely to happen in the UK as long as engineers are looked upon by accountants and elitist pilots as dirty little people that are nothing more than a neccesary evil. It's high time we were paid a decent wage. There wouldn't be such a shortage in skills then.

[jetfueldrinker]

Couldn't agree with Balti more. I think he and I work together, if that isn't a give away Walter! In the place that I work, engineers were made redundant some years ago, and now, when they are needed so badly, the company cannot recruit the cream that they used to attract. And when you thought things were settled, you are told that you are 'For Sale'. Acountants need to get out of their offices and see exactly what goes on in 'The Real World' to see what their constraints are doing to us and costing the company!

Someone told me once that if you go for the lowest quote, then you must leave something in reserve to allow for items that were missed or not quoted for. If you do that, then you could have afforded better in the first place.

[SchmiteGoBust]

Totally agree with Jet and Balti. I'm guessing that the company in question has something to do with concrete and is run by accountants who are absolutely useless!
This particular company has a bad reputation for having low opinions of engineering staff and a victorian mill style office/shop floor divide.
Having dealt with both sets of people this is odd to say the least as the shop floor average intelligence is far higher than the office staff. This is reflected in qualifications of the people in question. A large number of shop floor are qualified to HNC or above whereas hardly any office staff are qualified atall. Most of the leaders are in fact failed fitters!!
No wonder they never made money. Hopefully a takeover will correct the situation for the benefit off the engineers. Good luck to you all.

[Ultralights]

Oz has the same problems, And have even gone as fas as employing 154 south africans., their recruitment drive in NZ wasnt a sucess, with a total of 5 new engineers

[The Invisible Man]

Balti, It didn't actually say which ,if any, companies are paying their Engineers more than their pilots. The future dictates that the gap between both will narrow. Someone will realise one day that aircraft *cannot* fly till the Engineer has supplied the sign off.
Jetfueldrinker, I have a feeling you and I work for the same company too, although in a diferent location, (maybe wrong ). Do the intials N.W. bring despair to your thoughts!
One last point, Balti, if Engineers allow elitest pilots to treat them as dirty little people, The Engineers themselves need to address the problem. I, along with many others, consider myself equal to anyone I work with. We have the repect of 98% of flight deck. The only group of people who perhaps dont understand our importance are cabin crew. Nuff said !!!

[qfgingerbeer]

In 1997 one very big Australian airline owned partially by one very big British airline had a presentation day for all 150 graduating apprentices. After the presentation security guards marched all the new tradesmen to their lockers told them to remove the contents, escorted them off the base and told them their services were no longer required. This was the first time in 75 years that graduating apprenti were not given employement. One year later they were all asked to return but the cream of the crop had found jobs elsewhere and those who returned did so with no loyalty to there employer. Now we are so short of engineers that union officials and management are travelling the globe on a so far unsuccessful recruitment drive. I guess this story will sound familiar to many out there and it will only confirm that we are travelling a new path. It's time we all got together to help each other and the young kids out there who will one day carry us as we get older.

[spannersatcx]

Just in case you can't find the article,

Saturday, 16 December, 2000, 02:12 GMT
Delays fear over engineer shortage

Air passengers could soon face delays because of a shortage of maintenance engineers, the Civil Aviation Authority has warned.
Up to a quarter of the jobs for avionics engineers remain unfilled and overall the aircraft industry needs more than 3,000 extra staff.
The CAA wants airlines to make more of an effort to recruit apprentices.
Spokesman Tony Ingham said: "If the companies don't react now, you could see more delays, simply because you can't get the aeroplanes out of the hangar on time."
An aircraft can't fly without an engineer
Andrew Bloxham
Aircraft have to undergo rigorous checks before each flight and require extensive routine maintenance.
It is thought that while some airline jobs such as pilot or cabin crew are seen as glamorous occupations, engineering is less attractive to youngsters choosing a career.
But apprentice engineer Andrew Bloxham said he felt the job was prestigious.
Drift abroad
"I couldn't say what everyone thinks of engineers, but I imagine everyone sees them as important people.
"An aircraft can't fly without an engineer," he told the BBC.
Some airlines say they now have to pay their maintenance crews more than their pilots, to prevent them taking better paid jobs abroad.
But there is still a shortage of 3,500 staff in Britain and more than 10,000 in the US.
The British Government is currently looking at the problem, and a working party is due to report within a few months.

<A HREF="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_1072000/1072989.stm" TARGET="_blank">http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_1072000/1072989.stm</A>

[redtail]

I like it.

In years past, we have been threatened with having our jobs sent overseas. Corresponding with people around the world, it appears to me that we are all in the same boat. Low wages, insufficient manpower, too much work assigned. I hope we can finally slay this "straw man", the threat of sending our jobs somewhere else. It sounds like everyone is having a problem hiring, and with just cause!

If you don't have the honey, how will you attract the bees? Do we need to draw you (the employers) a picture? Are you, the employers, that dense?

Join with me, and do only your job. Do not do the job of the people above you or around you in your organizations. Let the world see the shortcomings of management and the other departments. Stop covering for the other groups failings.

[This message has been edited by redtail (edited 17 December 2000).]

[jetfueldrinker]

To the Invisible Man, where are you, I cannot see you! (Sorry, I couldn't resist that). N.W. and B.N. are both grief merchants. But have you noticed how many people share the same name, not just initials of N.W, in the company we work for? Are you north, south or midlands?

Just to add to the debate, how many of you out there are actively encouraged to find ways of saving money, by a team of people who are paid more than you? I can only suggest that the cost saving team are disbanded and we are left to our own decivices; engineers are inventive by nature, so if we can be inventive, surely we can save money by coming up with schemes or better ways of doing things, then the credit can be ours instead of going to the cost saving team! Just a thought.

[The Invisible Man]

JFD,
Thought we were in the same co. No what you mean about a certain team.
If the predicted shortages materialise in the not too distant future, how will our company cope?? Do we have any apprentices going through at the moment, are they assured of a job at the end of their training.
Those of us who have kids, they see what we do and what we are paid, no way will they follow in our footsteps. You could earn as much driving a bus... not have the responsiblities, the incredibly unsociable hours etc.
If the predicted doubling of air traffic happens over the next 5/10 years. Where are the Engineers coming from to do the certification. Will I be doing 80 hrs a week...I dont think so !!!!

[balti king]

Jet Fuel & Invisible, any chance that the current wage negotiations will reflect our status as a precious commodity? I reckon not. And not a Tesco voucher in sight either.

There are a few other initials of persons lower down the tree I could throw into the Tossers arena but that would give the game away. Easy Tech does sound inviting at times.

[roo 2]

that's cool my employer is fixing the problem by hiring semi skilled personel.wont be using staff travel much

[reracker]

Interesting article, as I started reading qfgingerbeer post about the 150 apprentices, I thought it was going to finish "And all were given suits and jobs in offices" A guy I work with has a son who is a worlds favorite apprentice. Only 30 on his course and when he is out of his time in a couple of months, he's not going on the tools, he's driving a desk as are 21 others. Eight new tradesman for a firm that size. Just what the world needs more chiefs.

I don't know if any of you guys are internet wizards but if you are could you forward the BBC article to any and all management you have the email address of, do it. The sooner they wake up and invest in this noble profession the better.

You can take a school leaver off the street train him to be a pilot and have him on line in under 18 months. Try a minimum of 5 years under JAR66 for a certifying engineer. Need we say more. Unfortunately yes, because in 5 years we will have an even bigger shortage a new layer of semi-skilled tradesman that need to be supervised and a new aircraft with 550+ people and 250 tonnes of fuel on board relying on our skill's, judgment and experience to keep them from making large smoking holes in the middle of central London.

Pay us more and you will attract more people in on the bottom rung and keep the people that are here already. We are not just an annoying necessity we are an assett.

[Pengineer]

I've read the article, I was one of those underpaid and underloved UK engineers (avionics)so I too went abroad in search of the big money and found it! Now that I have it would take an awful lot to tempt me back and frankly I can't see any of the UK airlines coming up with such a packet, I know there are hundreds like me out there and until the 'Frasers' and bean counters wake up and admit theres a problem (and do something about it), things will get a lot worse.

[moon]

Hi jetfueldrinker, Balti king and Invisible man!
Lets face it our co. has been panicking about man power for some time. But remember, because of the 3 year apprenticeship, there will be plenty of budding young engineers in the pipeline. God help us!!

[Blacksheep]

roo 2 has it in one.

The response to the shortage, so far anyway, has been progressive de-skilling. From my "beancounting" education, I deduce from the fact that a shortage exists while the price (wages) does not rise, that a market distortion is operating in the job market for aircraft maintenance engineers. In fact companies all over the world are reacting by dumbing down the job and expecting the licenced guys to cover the supervision of more and more semi-skilled workers. One chap stated here in this very Engineer's Forum that he was covering two "C" Checks in different hangars at the same time as the ONLY avionics licence holder on duty.

So, where is the market distortion? Since our employers do not have to employ any specific number of qualified staff, when they are short they simply employ less. The operator's sales are unaffected, output doesn't fall so it must be all right. Logical isn't it? Despite the fact that some of us glory in the title "Production" we don't actually produce anything, our job is to ensure that the means of production remain available. The regulators are well aware of the staffing situation; as the CAA report describes, by their own estimate there are 25%-30% too few licenced staff. But the regulations REQUIRE "sufficient" numbers and the regulators are required by law to enforce those regulations.

So, if the CAA are truly worried, when are they going to do something about it? And the FAA? And CASA? and... need I go on? The sad fact is that standards in our industry are slipping under the relentless pressure to cut costs. All predictions of huge future growth in air travel are based on lower fares, hence lower overall yields. The drive to cut costs even further will continue; wages and staffing levels will remain under pressure and anyone who thinks that the current shortage of skills will lead to higher pay is just dreaming. Those sheds going up now in a land out east, with an unlimited supply of resourceful, skilfull, and above all, cheap engineering employees will fill up with the world's airliners. I predict that HAECO will be the first to feel the chill winds of competition from fully skilled and trained workers earning no more than US$100 a month.

All over the world, airlines are big contributers to political parties and they have political clout. They will continue lobbying to ensure that the regulations do not make dents in profits. In the long run they will get their way, foreign repair stations will be approved and airlines will be able to send their fleets for maintenance wherever they wish. Its called economic reality... Or "Free Trade"

Sorry chaps, but aircraft maintenance is on the same road as steel, shipbuilding, and the other heavy industries. The only thing holding the migration back is the lack of approvals for foreign repair stations. As soon as the JAA and FAA are "persuaded" to grant more foreign facilities full approvals the flood gates will open.

**********************************
Through difficulties to the cinema

[SchmiteGoBust]

Unfortunately Blacksheep I agree. In the U.K. for example I think that the shortage of engineers will lead,eventyally to heavy maintenance going east. The only jobs left for the few engineers will be line stuff..

[WenWe]

Completely agree blacksheep.
Few years back I worked with an Operator that went from zero experience/certification capability on a modern electric jet (or other "western" equipment"), to 'C' check JAR145 approval. All with the help & encouragement of the manufacturer.
When I left the only outside help was from "Advisors".
A local, ICAO type2 Licenced Engineer earned 120US$ per month.
They weren't thinking of looking for 3rd party work at the time, but in the future????

[avo8]

so how do we convince those that matter money might have some effect?

[Paulf]

I think that all of this is slightly off the mark. I am in line maintenace and as far as i see it the issue is not the lack of qualified persons(BCAR Licences) but the lowering of qualifications required - JAR66 Cat A for example, and also the fact that Airlines are cutting down on their line work - how many crews carry defects unreported to the main base or the end of days flying? This will actually help drive down our wages and reduce the need for the LAE. Sorry to sound full of gloom, but for line work that is how I see it.

[helimutt]

Just as an extra bit of thought on this subject. I am presently a fairly senior engineering manager with a well known "British" oil company insofar as I work on their oil tankers at sea. I am an engineer who has ten years experience but as no recruitment has been done in the last five years or so, there is a huge shortage of good engineers. These jobs are now going to third world staff because they are cheap to employ. These crews seem to know a lot about the theory but putting it into practice is a different thing entirely. The companies only seem to listen to the accountants and won't train anyone anymore or pay a wage which is attractive. Just like with aircraft, if the engineers don't keep the ships operational, then the ship don't move. I recently qualified as a flying instructor on helicopters. (please don't groan) but I wanted a change from the stress I get in my present position. It seems that it isn't just airlines suffering from shortages.

[Blacksheep]

Paulf,

At least under JAR 66 there will still be licenced staff on Line Maintenance. In Majors JAR 66 only requires one licence holder, a cat C to sign off the whole check. No-one else needs to be licenced at all! There are those who dream that Cat B1 and B2 people will still be in attendance. I say 'dream' because the reality is that if the regulations don't require them, companies won't pay for them. Will you spend money, time and effort on getting a licence that you don't need? That's right, "No money, no honey." The LAE is going to disappear from Base Maintenance. Air travel will not only become cheap, it will become just like the railways. Dirty, unreliable and inefficient.
Did Amtrack do anything to improve rail travel in the USA? Did privatisation do anything to improve the railways in UK? Will de-regulation do anything to improve air transport? Get the picture yet? What does the future hold?...

...The A380 taxis to the gate, only 14 hours late this time. 1,000 weary passengers fight to get out of the filthy stinking cabin (the toilets gave up 9 hours into the flight) to join the gang warfare around the baggage belts in the arrival hall. It will only take another three hours for them to clear immigration and collect the bags then the ordeal will be over. Ambulances wait on the tarmac for the 2 passengers who cannot walk after sitting in the 28 inch pitch economy seats for 14 hours. There is also a hearse for the elderly cabin attendant who passed away in one of the galleys during meal preparation. The pilot and his assistant hide in the crew toilet to avoid the angry customers. On the Tarmac is George Brownfag the engineer. He has four A380s to attend to right now so he is only there to "pen-off" any defects. There will be no trouble from the JAA; the company accountants have paid the necessary bribes, that's cheaper than doing any actual maintenance. The oncoming 'assistant to the pilot' is doing a walkround. "Hey, greaseball!" he yells at George "what's with this tyre then?" pointing to the canvas strips showing through the treads. "There's another three landings in that bugger!" replies George "so f*ck off back where you came from mate"....

Aaahhh aviation was so romantic once :)

**********************************
Through difficulties to the cinema

[jetfueldrinker]

With respect to one 'C' licensed engineer certifying a whole 'C' check, consider what a current Level 2 approval holder is certifying. He is stating that a job has been carried out in accordance with the correct instructions, that the team or individual carrying out the task has been properly briefed and instructed, and finally, the inspection of finished work. So how many Certifying Engineers reading this have rejected work on inspection this year alone? I have, so there is a start. One person to certify a whole 'C' check? Are they dreaming? One person to carry out all the inspection of the finished product in all trade disciplines? I don't think so. The, no doubt highly paid and overworked individual would spend as much, if not more time checking the aeroplane before release to service as the blokes spent working on it. Think about it for a minute; on a string of complex tasks one person couldn't be expected to sholder all the responsiblity; it would be too much. So how long would it be before there was a hull loss? Not very. There would be the fiasco that the rail companies have faced recently with track not being properly maintained, and the recruitment of people who were made redundant not too many years ago to try to make amends to the situation. Too little too late. Vehicle maintenance, be it plane, train or car is about safety AND SHOULDN'T BE TREATED AS A SOLE MEANS TO MAKE A PROFIT. I hope that poeple who are convinced by Change Philosophy read this and take note.

[Mister Angry]

Some good points made there!
With just a few months remaining to the JAR66 introduction, the confusion out here is worse than ever.
The 66 licence is being doled out to all and sundry in europe, especially France it seems, while, as per usual, we here in the UK are being f**ked about by the CAA in that we have to do practically impossible electrical theory to get...if we pass...even less authorisation , oh yes, we also have to pay a small fortune for this 'privilege'!!!
Will somebody please explain what is going to be the official policy re JAR66 licence?

Mr. A.

[HeliEng]

Mister Angry,

What do you mean by policy for the JAR 66? I may be able to help!

In reply to the rest of y'all. I know many people studying for the JAR 66 licence, with VERY few passing exams. It seems that the shortage is never going to go away while it is so difficult to get a licence!

Another factor is also the low pay which is inherent in the industry. This acts as no incentive for young people to WANT to come into aviation when computing, in this day and age, is a much for financially preferable option!

[balti king]

One way of attempting to promote our cause is to always maintain our integrity as professionals. Commercial pressure affects us all, indirectly as well as in our faces at work but we must not succome. I know it's easier said than done at times. We really DO have the power to make a/c fly, but we must do it safely; we have to make sure we dot the Is and cross the Ts and if that means the a/c is late then so be it. I have experienced a company who were happy encouraging the "short" way to get the job done, expecting that as the norm, but if it went wrong they were the first to distance themselves and deny all knowledge saying that as far as they were concerned approved procedures had been followed. Don't compromise yourself and your colleagues, do it right all the time. When management realise we can't be manipulated to produce a/c, the accountants might just realise that that we are pivotal in the company's ability to make money. If we don't behave in a professional manner then we will always be treated as a disposable semi skilled manual workforce instead of a necessary dedicated professional asset.