First helicopter: Which would you recommend? and Why?

[Tony Chambers]

Ok its time for me to take my PPLH but i also wanna buy my own helicopter to learn in. But one problem is i want something with 4-5 seats.
Is this wise to start so big and what types would you suggest?
I am looking at either a Gazelle or MD500.
What sort of return could i get if any if leased it out, if this was possible.
Your great wisdom will be of help before i take the leap.
:ok:

[thecontroller]

Gazelle - Horrendous running costs

MD500 - Supposed to be great to fly but not much room in the back - depends how often you're taking passengers.

I would go for an R44 Raven II or a Jet Ranger. Although a nice Jet Ranger ain't gonna be cheap.

Maybe get an older R44 Astro/Raven I if you budget is limited.

I think an R44 would be a better bet to lease back to a flying school.

Or if you're £loaded, how about a Single Squirrel? (AS350)

[Bronx]

Tony my friend, before the guys use time here, are you really really gonna buy a helicopter? ;)

Even from what I can remember, you’ve asked about operators with FLIR capability for private lease, chartering a civil tiltrotor, chartering an EH101 in the UK, buying a Cicare Trainer, buying a mobile air traffic and ops room and buying a Lynx helo frame.

Did you get any rides in a Gazelle when you were in the Army? Fine helicopter and maybe ex-military ones about. Any turbine is gonna cost big bucks to maintain, thats the way it is with turbines, but it's the way to go if you can afford it.

[Tony Chambers]

OK Bronx yes i am gonna buy my own helicopter, and yes in the past i have posted many questions, some i have been asked and i have then re asked the question on here becuase i didnt know the answer and sometimes i have asked questions through my own curiosity.
I believe there is some very experienced people on this site and it is a good place to get answers for what ever questions i ask, i don't believe that you are doubting me or even mocking me but if you are then it is that sort of reply that could seriously put people off using this site.
I like to get into conversations i feel i can add to and this post is for advice.
:confused:

[Project Pilot FH1100]

The problem is, many people convince themselves that they have enough money to buy a turbine helicopter. What they find is that they are ill-prepared to operate that same helicopter. The price of everything- fuel, insurance, recurrent training, maintenance and yes, even parts can be astounding. For example, seen the latest little "gotcha" from the FAA to people who own helicopters with RR/Allison 250 C-20 series engines? Next time you have to do any maintenance on the turbine, expect to cough up another $10,000 or so for a containment ring!

I recently called the Parts Department of a...let's say "major manufacturer of light turbine helicopters" (whose name is a four-letter word to us at my company) to inquire about some gizmo a customer needed. First of all, the price was jaw-droppingly, heart-stoppingly high. Secondly, they were back-ordered on the part until July. This was back in May. What do they make those helicopters out of, pure gold?

Leasebacks are interesting and enticing. But they will never be profitable. The best you can probably hope for is to defray some of the costs. But you'd have to do some serious number-crunching to see if it would even be worthwhile. Not to be pessimistic, but leasebacks almost always work in favor of the operator, not the owner. Then there's the other-people-flying-your-bird thing. When I've owned aircraft, I hated letting other people fly them. And did so only rarely.

Lots of good ships out there. I could even recommend one myself ;) Pays your money: takes your choice. Be very, very careful.

[paco]

You will need dispensation to train ab initio in a helicopter with more than 4 seats. Also, I've know 2 people who did what you propose, and they both said that instead of buying a used Robbie they should have bought a new one. It's cheaper.

phil

[HeliEng]

Tony,

Have you considered the Enstrom 480?

For what you get against price it's great value.

The new 480B seems to have a few improvements over the old 480.

If you are interested in getting some more info, pm me your e-mail address/phone number and I can put you in touch with a friend of mine who can give you some more detailed info!.


Helieng

[Bravo73]

Paco/Phil,

Are you sure that the need for 'dispensation to train ab initio in a helicopter with more than 4 seats' applies to JARland? If so, have you got a reference please?

I am aware that all the training has to be carried out in the same type (ie no 'mix and matching' of R22/H300 for example) but had not heard about the 4 seat limitation.


Many thanks,

B73

[boomerangben]

Have you looked at an EC120 - lovely to fly and better for those in the back seats than a Jet Banger.

[moosp]

I'd support boomerangben on the EC 120 as a private helicopter. Most of the negatives you hear are from people who try to run it commercially with 4 pax, golf clubs and luggage, and that will not work with useful fuel.

But for the average private owner who rarely gets to MTOW, it is a clean machine, spouse/partner friendly, and the support from EC gets better by the month. From a low base, admittedly, but there is a big effort amongst their people I have worked with.

Go for low hour post 1993, and check that all the applicable engineering SBs have been done. If you can afford a new one, then go for it, and enjoy the warranty.

FWIW

[paco]

bravo73 - it is indeed true - the company next door (polo) had to do it to train someone on his own 206. That might be Fred Cross's department, but I don't know

phil

[Tony Chambers]

Thanx for the reply guys, great to get advice from you. Can someone clarify the dispensation for ab nitio in a 4 seater please.

[212man]

Well, this is what JAR FCL-2 says:

2.125

" An applicant for a PPL(H) shall complete at a FTO or an accepted registered facility the required instruction in accordance with the syllabus as set out in Appendix 1 to JAR–FCL 2.125.

A registered facility is limited to giving training on single-engine helicopters with a maximum certificated seating capacity of not more than 4 persons. In exceptional circumstances existing SE training helicopters may continue to be used when approved in registered facilities for PPL training by the Authority under the terms of an exemption."

[ThomasTheTankEngine]

The rule applying to training in a helicopter with a maximum of 4 seats for a PPL(H) applies to a RF, Not an FTO or TRTO read JAR FCL 2 you will see this. This said Paco could be right the CAA do not alway's corectly interperet JAR FCL 2.

The R44 is a fantastic machine for the price, R44 Raven 2 has lots of power and a high cruise speed with a collective datcon (So your maintance is based on flight time not engine running time) I comparison to a turbine it's a cheap simple helicopter to operate. The other good thing about a Robinson is you can always sell it when the time come's.

EC120 A lot more expencive but I would buy a 120 instead of a Jetranger any day, A lot more room, 120 Knot cruise speed.

I have exellent contacts for both of these type's if your interested drop me an email [email protected]

Good luck.

[paco]

Thanks for that Thomas (and 212man), that's made it a little clearer - the organisation in question is indeed an RTF, and I got the impression it was a blanket requirement. And you're right, they do not always interpret the rules correctly, hence my comments in the type rating thread.

phil

[Hughes500]

Learn in a piston engine trainer eg H300. You will learn how to fly. Any turbine is not good to learn on, lots and lots or reasons which i won't bore you with ( PM me)

[Bravo73]

Many thanks paco, 212man and Thomas for the clarification.

I also asked the BossFellah and he reckoned that this was a requirement that is often 'over looked' by the CAA.


Many thanks,

B73

[diethelm]

530FF

Fast

Plenty of power