Awright You Booze Hounds...Listen Up!

[SASless]

Pilots Guilty of Being Drunk in Cockpit

By Associated Press

June 8, 2005, 1:39 PM EDT

MIAMI -- Two former America West pilots were convicted Wednesday of being drunk in the cockpit after an all-night drinking binge.

They face up to five years in prison on the charge of operating an aircraft while drunk. Both men bowed their heads when the verdict was read after a two-week trial and jury deliberations over parts of two days.

Pilot Thomas Cloyd and co-pilot Christopher Hughes were arrested July 1, 2002, as their Phoenix-bound jet was being pushed back from its gate at Miami International Airport.

Police ordered the plane to turn back and arrested the pilots after security screeners smelled a strong odor of alcohol on Hughes, and Cloyd got in an argument over his attempts to bring aboard a cup of coffee.

The pilots had 14 beers between them at a bar the night before the flight, closing out their $122 tab at about 4:40 a.m. -- roughly six hours before their flight was to depart. Hours later, they registered blood-alcohol levels above Florida's 0.08 legal limit.

The pilots maintained they were not operating the aircraft because it was being pushed by a runway tug and its steering was disengaged at the time it was ordered back to the terminal. They were fired by America West after their arrests and lost their commercial pilot's licenses.
Copyright 2005 Newsday Inc.

[Ascend Charlie]

AND THEY DESERVED IT TOO!!!!

How can any pilot be so stupid?? Paying $8.71 for a beer is the dumbest thing I have ever heard.:8

[giveitsome]

Has happend before and it will happen again. What would be interesting would be to see the STATS (They don't exist) on those that have done the same thing but have not been caught-YET.

Great thing about Murphy is he loves to wait for these sorts of days to catch you out.

Imagine being , full of fuel, heavy, Hot day, High ELEV, Take off roll, lots of happy waving pax in the back, Eng Fire or Flame out just after rotation with a bunch of pi - - ed aviators in the front trying to IDENT-CONFIRM-SELECT with the sum total brain capacity of zero.

Its hard enough some days trying to do the job when you are full bottle.

I agree with ASCEND C, any one that pays $9 for a beer is already brain dead!!!!!

:E

[Lu Zuckerman]

Several years ago two Northwest pilots who were known to be under the influence were allowed to depart on a trip to Detroit. The reasons for letting them continue the flight was that Minnesota did not have a law against flying while drunk. However the State of Michigan did. The pilots were allowed to fly in this condition endangering the passengers, the crew, and the aircraft and were arrested upon landing at Detroit.

So which is worse.


:E :E

[B Sousa]

Saw part of the trial on TV. It was a vain effort as I understand the judge wouldnt accept a plea bargin. Im sure they are toast now.
All because the arrogrant dude argued about a cup of coffee......
Two careers shot(deservedly so)..........AND Pilots cant play pool worth a sh1t anyway..........
Judge is gonna put them in with the rest of economy class........

[Flying Lawyer]

giveitsome

I'm not trying to defend their actions, and I bow to your expertise as a professional pilot. Just to put things in perspective:
Florida's legal breath alcohol limit for drivers is 0.08
Cloyd's reading was 0.091
Hughes was 0.084.
ie Both were only over the limit at which they could have legally driven by a minute fraction.

Isn't "a bunch of pi - - ed aviators in the front" overstating it just a bit?

I assume "sum total brain capacity of zero" refers to their stupidity in drinking heavily shortly before flying, not that they were in that state because of the alcohol they'd drunk.

[SASless]

FL.....

Might we ask the question : Have you ever flown the day after a long night of drinking and felt the after effects of that night? After effects commonly known as "The hangover from Hades"....compounded by lack of sleep and lack of adequate nourishment.

Is that not as bad as being legally intoxicated but not drunk as you rightly suggest?

I plead the fifth.....amendment....not the quantity!

Also FL....if by chance either one of them held a Commercial Drivers License......the tolerance drops by half purely because of the Commerical license vice non-commerical driving license.

[Heli-Ice]

Who are we kidding?... pilots are just what they are, truckers of the air and what do you expect from them, truckers do what they do.

Truckers do:

1. how the h+ll should I know I'm just a pilot!

Hey waitress!! I'll have another one!


I guess common sense isn't a very common sense? :confused:

[SASless]

Heli,

I am both a pilot and a trucker....and a drinker. Doing less of all three lately.....but I do know that the one time that I did the drive a big truck with a hang-over thing....it was both pure misery and a very unwise thing to do.

I have also done the same thing in a helicopter....when I was both young and foolish....and upon reflection....being older and wiser than in those years....it was not a good deed then.

I do think there lurks a Red Indian Medicine Man in most pilots....there are times we have all done a Rain Dance praying for some really ugly weather to magically appear and ground us for the day. I still know the chant just in case I fall off the wagon.

[giveitsome]

Flying Lawyer


"Florida's legal breath alcohol limit for drivers is 0.08
Cloyd's reading was 0.091 Hughes was 0.084."


FL can you be a little bit pregnant?? Whether they were compared against a standard that exists for driving vs flying doesn't really cut the mustard. 0.08 OR 100.8, no business being in cockpit with live meat on board. I am not aware of the legal standard to be applied in this case (however I know where to find it), the reasonable man would say-Flying and Drinking is not a good idea. And yes anybody who pays $9 for a beer is still an idiot!!!

Give It some



:ok: :ok:

[Heli-Ice]

SAS,

Know what you mean.

Done the hangover in a truck thingy my self and wouldn't recommend it to anyone. Never did it flying though and I hope my bean doesn't let me so I won't have to bow my head in a court room somewhere.

This trucker-pilot resemblance thing is interesting...

[Flying Lawyer]

SASless

No, but I've done other things in that state and agree with your point.
I was simply putting these pilots' alcohol levels in context. ieBeing a minute amount over the legal driving limit doesn't mean someone is drunk.

The FAA alcohol limit for pilots also drops to half.

Coincidentally, I'm also a trucker. I've got a licence to drive articulated trucks, but haven't used it for a few years. I'm not tee-total, but I'm not a 'drinker' in the usual sense of the word.


giveitsome
No, you can't be "a little bit pregnant", and you can be a lttle bit drunk.
I referred to the driving limit simply to illustrate that a reading of 0.091 or 0.084 isn't 'drunk', nor even 'a lttle bit drunk' IMHO.

I agree they had no business being in cockpit with those alcohol levels, but I disagree that they can sensibly be described as "pi - - ed aviators."
I've no doubt the reasonable man would say 'Flying and Drinking is not a good idea.' I'd agree, and would put it rather stronger than that.

The Florida limit is different from the Federal limit.

The Federal limit is in FAR 91.17 Alcohol or Drugs.
"No person may act or attempt to act as a crewmember of a civil aircraft -
within eight hours after the consumption of any alcoholic beverage;
while under the influence of alcohol;
while using any drug that affects the person's faculties in any way contrary to safety;
while having 0.04 percent by weight or more alcohol in the blood."

Any one of those alternatives is sufficient to prove a violation.
eg If a pilot flies within eight hours after consuming alcohol, he commits an offence even if he's not under the influence of alcohol when he flies and even if his blood alcohol level is zero.

[Disguise Delimit]

Theshe pilots (hic!) were jusht a bit conf... conf ... confushed.

They thought the rule was "No smoking within 8 hours of flight, and no drinking within 100 feet of the aircraft."

[krobar]

A hangover still counts as under the influence, so I suppose most of us have been guilty at some point...

[SASless]

FL,

Your point is well taken....and I think we would all agree that although under the influence...they were....they were probably not "drunk"...but one of them really wanted that cup of coffee. But then it could be he had a drug addiction for caffeine too.....or a resentment of authority as represented by the unfriendly TSA man.

There is more to this than just two intoxicated pilots....there was some kind of confrontation at the security check that set all this into motion.

Bottom line....be nice....eat peppermints....and breathe shallowly as you meekly walk by other folks.....and do not recognize your drinking buddies from the night before if they happen to be seated in the cabin of your airplane.....even if they wave at you.

[giveitsome]

Good call KRO, however we all have to grow up at some point. One of the worst trips I remember was NVG Form, complicated sortie with complicated rejoin procedures. All of us had finished our session 24 hrs before the planned sortie however we were all under performers that night, simply because we were still tired and fatigued.

Like I said. Murphy will catch up with all of us if we let him.

Don't always have Supp O2 available at your finger tips. Better to get on it when you have some space in your roster.

Yes your right we have all been guilty at some point.

:\

[alouette]

I can't believe that there are numbnuts committing this kind of blunder. Why would anybody risk its career by going on a drinking binge the night before the flight? That is stupid irresponsible and in disregard of safety. We all make stupid mistakes but this is by far the stupidest I have heard from in a long time. Bravo..an immediate dismissal from the job and a prison sentence is quite an accomplishment. Their lives are screwed.:ouch:

[slowrotor]

These guys claim that " We were not actually operating the airplane, it was being pushed by a tug " is ludicrous. Give me a break. Just admit the error.

[TheFlyingSquirrel]

well if anything , it's a great advert for gum and mouthwash !

[212man]

Not mouthwash; it contains alcohol!

[Lu Zuckerman]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I didn't know Sid was a drunk until one day I saw him sober

I was a plane captain on a JRF Goose and one-day I was sent on a mission with our engineering officer. He like most of the pilots on our base was a veteran of the Greenland Patrol. These missions were harrowing and boring at the same time and to minimize the effects of flying under these conditions the pilots carried a bottle of engine smoothener in their nav kit. Many of the pilots that participated on these long over water patrols became alcoholics.

Our engineering officer was nicknamed Shaky but I was unaware of the reason for the nickname. That is, until we were halfway through the mission. Our mission was to bring an APU to one of our helicopters that was located on the Niagara river to rescue ice fishermen in the event of the ice breaking away. The remainder of the mission was for cross-country flying from Buffalo, New York to Floyd Bennet field in Brooklyn, New York.

We landed at Buffalo airport and we had to wait for our truck to arrive to pickup the APU. There was about 8 inches of snow on the ground and it was extremely cold. The administration building was not open so we had to wait in the cold. It was during this time I observed Shaky shaking. He had sobered up. When the administration building finally opened Shaky disappeared into the building looking for the bar. It wasn’t open at that early hour so Shaky came to the realization that he was unable to fly. At that time I was promoted from plane captain to pilot. I had been schooled as a part of my training to be able to relieve the pilot but I lacked the necessary skills to pilot the aircraft.

I successfully taxied the aircraft and eventually took off and headed for New York, City. My navigation was a bit sloppy but we finally made it to CGAS Brooklyn, New York. I was setting up for the landing and the tower was providing instructions as to which runway to use. This communication transpired as we passed over the Rockaway Bridge, which screwed up the radio transmission and, I set up on the wrong runway. At this time the control tower was glowing with red aldis lamps. Shaky took over and made a reasonably successful landing.

We stayed overnight and while I was trying to refuel the aircraft Shaky was tanking up at the Officers club. The tanks only needed about 25 gallons apiece and I plugged the nozzle into the tank. The man who was monitoring the tank truck walked away after increasing the engine rpm. He indicated later that the truck would not pump at low rpm. In any case he walked away and the nozzle went wide open filling the tank to overflow in a few seconds. I screamed at the tanker attendant to shut the fuel pump off. In the mean time I pulled the nozzle out of the tank and directed the high-pressure stream over the tail and into a snowbank. While all this was going on my winter flight suit became soaked with 91-octane gasoline

Shaky was able to fly the plane due to his intake of high octane alcohol however my flight suit was soaked in gasoline so we had to fly in the middle of winter with the cockpit windows open and the rear Dutch-doors open to promote circulation. I was wearing my dress blues which offered no protection from the cold. The heaters were ineffective so both Shaky and myself were freezing. It didn’t take much time under these conditions for Shakeys’ buzz to wear off. Once again I was promoted to pilot only this time we were to fly to Philadelphia and then to Cleveland. We successfully arrived at Cleveland where Shaky had an opportunity to tank up and he flew the aircraft back to Traverse City, Michigan.


:E :E

[SASless]

"I had been schooled as a part of my training to be able to relieve the pilot but I lacked the necessary skills to pilot the aircraft."


I don't think we want to know about the curriculum of that training Lu.....the very image of you "relieving" a pilot scares me.

Since there are no Marines aboard Hooligan Navy cutters....it does beg the question of how the "Brown Water Navy" resolve that situation. I fear we now know more than we cared to.
;)

[Heliport]

slowrotor Just admit the error.

If just admitting the error meant you'd definitely go straight to jail, and if a long shot worked you wouldn't, would you "just admit the error" or try the long shot?

[SASless]

Heliport,

In normal circumstances the reply would be...."What are you going to believe....that video, breathalyzer, and your lying eyes....or me?"

The sad part is the prosecutor decided to make an example out of these two guys at some point and any hope of a plea bargain or other deal....disappeared. It took a very bold but not very bright attorney to use the excuse that he did...."We were not operating the aircraft!"

I don't know about your courts but an insanity plea on the part of the defence counsel would have made more sense.....any normal judge would have called him to the bench and suggested something about wasting the courts time offering a defence like that.

In traffic court....merely sitting in the seat and having a the keys is construed as operating the vehicle. It does not have to switched on and running for a driver to be operating it.

At this point, I might suggest the appeal be based upon an inadequate defence.

[Lu Zuckerman]

To: SASless

It was at the time of this incident the operational philosophy of Coast Guard Aviation that the plane captain be given sufficient training to relieve the pilot when flying with a two-man crew. I was already able to run-up the engines and taxi the aircraft as these were a part of my maintenance responsibilities. When flying with a two-man crew the plane captain would fly in the right seat. There were similar requirements for helicopter operations. The pilots would turn over control to the plane captain and give him instruction in handling the aircraft, keeping it level and maintaining directional control. Some pilots would go as far as letting the plane captain takeoff and land the aircraft. The pilot would also allow the plane captain to operate the radios and converse with ATC. I do not feel that I placed the pilot the aircraft and myself in any danger (with the possible exception of trying to land on the wrong runway).

I received similar training on the Beech JRB and the PBY. I also received similar training on the HO3S-1G, the HO4S and the Bell HTL-1 but I have to admit I was never able to hover stationary over a fixed spot.


:E :E

[212man]

Lu is either ignoring you, SASless, or demonstrating his charming and untainted innocence.

Trust you to make mucky comments about "relieving pilots"!!

(Lu, ignore him he's being rude! ):ok: