More madness at BA.

[Hot Wings]

The situation between pilots and cabin crew at BA becomes more farcical as each week goes by. Here are 2 of the latest examples:

1. A Senior First Officer on the 747-400 fleet has been suspended because he moved his wife into first class.

2. A stewardess has reported a shorthaul Captain for being a pervert because he insisted that she wore her crotch strap whilst on the jump seat, as is required by Flight Crew Orders.

The problem isn't so much about the working relationship between cabin crew and pilots but about the complete lack of back-bone of the Flight Operations management. None of them want to stick up for their team.

It is now politically incorrect to challenge the cabin crew or their management. Cabin Crew rule the roost at BA and good luck to them because it is our pilot managers who have allowed the situation to develop.

If a pilot at BA is reported by a member of cabin crew, he/she is withdrawn from flying duties whilst the investigation is conducted. The accuser, however, continues
to work. Surely they are also needed for the investigation?

For those of you considering joining this "happy" outfit - beware!

[twintowers]

Thanks for that, particularly the info about the biscuit-thrower on the jumpseat. Having previously bent over backwards to help out all commutting cabin crew, it stops here and from now on they needn't even bother asking for the jumpseat.

[Pandora]

The new FCO is familiar to all shorthaul crew, including the part about having a blanket on hand to preserve the dignity of any CC using the jumpseat. All the CC I have had on the jumpeat are also aware of it

So surely the biscuit thrower has just made herself look stupid in this instance?

[Myk Hunt]

It seems to me that a British Airways Captain isn´t in control any more. I seems that the head purser is running the show. "In case of an emergency call the no1 purser to deal with the problem" ....NOT.
It is the pilots at BA that are letting your cabincrew disrespect you. Both in salaries and dayly communications. If you don´t do anything NOW you will end up asking them what to do.
N.B. In my company our wifes(and husbands) are always listed 1st class if there is a seat available.

[eezypilot]

Not pleased to read this news.

Here at easy, pilots have been suspended after accusations from cabin crew whilst accusers keep flying. All pilots reinstated,and no action taken against cc. Pilots lost out on sector pay etc.

Cant imagine the captain of a cruise ship being shown such derision by the waiters

[BOEINGBOY1]

what bothers me is that in neither of these incidients, does it appear that any member of the cabin crew, mentioned anything at the time to the pilot concerned. iam sure that if they did, things would have been different. instead they take their two faced, sniviling, anti pilot "they earn more than us" attitude away with them at the end of the flight, and head straight to the nearest lawyer. ps, how the story would have been different, had any of the cabin crew up-graded a relative or a friend, me thinks !!!
basically it seems to me that the cabin crew are spineless.

[crewrest]

eezypilot said :'Cant imagine the captain of a cruise ship being shown such derision by the waiters '

That, despite the situations described above, is a disgusting attitude to your cabin crew eezypilot. They are your Safety Officers down the back. I'm sure they'd love to hear of your attitude to them is that.

[411A]

Wonder when more flight deck crew will realise that airlines appoint a "cabin captain" to look after the back end. Leave them ALONE to do their job and then you will have NO problems. Nearly every time the flight crew interferes with the back end operations (except emergency situations), they muddy the waters and many times create animosities. The Captain is "God" idea went to heaven a long time ago.

[Clockwork Orange]

Crew Rest, the above comments are not "disgusting". The "waiters" on a cruise ship are as responsible for safety as the cabin crew on an aircraft. (Although standards may not be as high!)
In both cases, however, the Captain is in charge, and deserves the respect their experience and promotion affords them.
The cabin crew, in the cases above, should be reprimanded for their actions. The accusations should have never reached the flight crew.

[Orangewing]

BoeingBoy1,beautifully put!
This latest incident just goes to show the contempt we, as Pilots, are treated with by cabin crew. It throws CRM right out of the window; cabin crew desperately trying to 'get one over' on flight crew,creating a huge gulf of mistrust and suspicion.Hardly ideal if the **** hits the fan in a real emergency,is it?
Trouble is,cabin crew can make these allegations knowing they are beyond reproach,and so happily endanger/ruin a PROFESSIONAL Pilot's career.The C4 Dispatches program,made by a bitter (former) biscuit-thrower is one such example.
This sort of behaviour is commonplace in the low-cost airline I work for,but I put this down to the fact we recruit from the bottom of the barrel.
I am therefore surprised and saddened that the "let's get a Pilot susended" attitude has found its way into BA,who I used to think had very good cabin crew.Surely it is about time the c/c were made accountable for their actions?
Best of luck to the two gentlemen concerned!

[Doctor Cruces]

411A,

What you seem to have missed in your note about pilots interfering, is that the CAPTAIN is actually in COMMAND of the aeroplane. There has to be co-operation between the front end and the CC otherwise the whole operation will fall apart.

Whilst I do not doubt that the cabin staff may be able to put your hands on the comfort blankets down the back a lot faster than the captain, I would suggest that his/her grasp of the aircraft operation as a whole is a lot better than most cabin staff. His/her instructions should be obeyed as long as the crew are on the aircraft and any disagreement should be resolved on the ground, with or without the help of respective line managers.

If this deplorable state continues, it will not be long before the Captain's instructions are treated as suggestions and open to negotiation instead of lawful commands given to subordinates.

Doc C.

[This message has been edited by Doctor Cruces (edited 26 April 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Doctor Cruces (edited 26 April 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Doctor Cruces (edited 26 April 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Doctor Cruces (edited 26 April 2001).]

[Devils Advocate]

Why not fight fire with fire...... e.g. if you should find that one of these harridans is part of your crew, during the pre-flight briefing why not ask them the most obscure questions w.r.t SEPS, etc, i.e. get them on the back-foot ... and if they can't find the answers then they're off the flight - not forgetting of course to accordingly follow this up with a report to their manager - as well as passing the word around to your fellow flight-crew.

That said, should the CSD / Purser object to you asking what might appear to be 'damning' questions you can always site that magic 'S' word (i.e. safety) as the prime consideration, in that every member of your crew needs to be completely au fait with the SEP's etc - that's their job after all, and it's only reasonable that they should know both the drills and where the equipment is - and you'd be amazed how many don't, especially when under pressure of scrutiny.

Now I actually know a skipper who does this pre-flight 'inquisitorial' and it surely does seem to strike fear into those of whom he asks the questions - and, like it or hate it, it certainly confirms most forthrightly precisely who is the boss aboard the a/c.

Ps. That said, I'd then take care with any vitals then supplied to you from the cabin !

[411A]

Doctor Cruces--
Agree completely with your comments. As an airline Captain for over twenty five years, have had little trouble with CC, as I have left them alone to do their job. When my wife travels with me she sits in the seat that she has beed assigned (according to the ticket) unless the cabin chief offers an upgrade when space is available. She always has been so accomodated. For a F/O (no less) to arbitrarily upgrade his wife without asking the CC chief is just asking for trouble, IMHO.

[IcePack]

Whilst I believe all the crew take an a/c from A - B some cabin crew should stop and think!
Don't forget all our lives on board an a/c in flight, rest almost solely with the flight deck crew.
Some cabin crew have problems with this concept and try to get even by dropping the flight deck in it.
Shame as nearly all the hard work the CRM trainers have put in gets undermined instantly.

[Doctor Cruces]

411A,

Completely agree with yr last post. Knowing who is in charge is very important but courtesy also plays a part. For an F/O to upgrade his wife without even asking the Cabin Chief is rude in the extreme (not to discount all the other good reasons either) and I'm not surprised the CC was upset.

Doc C.

[Rananim]

I find this hard to believe..but if its true,the BA pilots have only themselves to blame.Not so long ago,a colleague of theirs was unfairly dismissed and subsequently died.Very little was done by the pilots union in the form of redress and even less by the BA pilots themselves.If you cant watch out for one of your own,you dont really deserve any better from anyone else do you now?

[MissChief]

Oh dear. This sad sad state of affairs exists in many companies, including my beloved BA, where cabin crew genuinely believe themselves to be the professional equals of the pilots. This simply ain't so, and never should be. Obviously there is one area where all employees have an overlap of shared responsibilities, that being safety. In reality, 98-99% of the shared responsibility for safe conduct of a flight resides with the flight deck crew...whether the trip is routine OR if an emergency or abnormal event should take place.

The present bad attitude of some cabin crew people has been promulgated by mixed CRM courses, often run by cabin crew people with little or no understanding of the real work up front. I have participated in such events, and have to say that most pilots sit there quietly, allowing the cabin crew to get away with murder, verbally, instead of taking the bait. The attitude is that they (the pilots) are not professional equals, and will not enter into any debate.

And as an analogy, doctors and nurses in an operating theatre work very closely together (far more so than pilots and flight attendants). There is no doubt about who is responsible for the surgery and the anaesthesia, and the overall safety and well-being of the patient. Salaries are commensurate with responsibilities. And joint training of the 2 professions would be considered a nonsense. Can our flight attendants / cabin crew please recognise their own relative positions, and just shut up?

[A and C]

Things have not changed much since i left BA ten years ago but it it springs to mind that if BALPA was as militant as the CC union then this sort of thing would not happen.

The same could go for the ground engineers union but it is not in the nature of highly trained technical staff to take such action
to increase the "status" and there for pay such actions are the remit if the types with a need to make them selfs important and hopefully indispensable.

This is why the when i left BA the TOTAL remunaration for a longhaul junior CC member (six weeks training) was greater than that of a licenced engineer (six years training and lots of CAA exams)with three type aprovals.

The only way to get the status and pay back to what it should be is for the technical staff to get together and fight the corner for those who hold licences be they green or red.

[Hot Wings]

Apparently, the SFO concerned got the okay from the Captain but the CSD refused to play along. Its sad isn't it?

As far as flight crew being reported by CC is concerned, the following story has to be the worst case in the previous 12 months:

A 777 crew were taxiing out for take-off when there was a runway change. The Captain informed the CSD that the aircraft might be too heavy to take-off on the new runway and that they might have to go back to the gate and off-load some freight.

T/O data for the new runway was calculated and the aircraft departed safely, without having to return to the gate.

Shortly after returning to London the flight crew were suspended from duty. Why? The CSD on the flight had put in a report stating that he "doubted the flight crew's technical ability" and that he "felt that his life had been put in danger". During the take-off, the CSD witnessed that the aircraft had only narrowly avoided crashing into the runway approach lights (at the departure end).

As I have already mentioned, the flight crew were withdrawn from duty whilst the investigation was carried out, yet the CSD continued to go to work.

Obviously, the investigation and examination of SESMA data proved that the Flight Crew had no case to answer. It had been a textbook departure.

No action was taken against the CSD.

No apology was made to the Flight Crew by the CSD.

It would be funny if it wasn't true.

[Pandora]

Dear all,
a few excerpts from a thread titled 'Aggressive Pax' written by a CC on the CC forum.
"One pax ... came the closest to punching MY purser."
"The crew member INCHARGE calmed him down."
"He was travelig on to GLS so WE obviosly RADIOED ahead just to warn them of the bully."
"Do you feel the pilots in your company support your decisions when it comes to crunch-time?"

-The crew member in charge he refers to is not the Captain.
-I didn't know CC could use the radio. They must have done as there was no mention of any flight crew on the a/c at all.

The last question above is from another CC in reply asking a few questions about how aggressive pax should be dealt with. He/she is the first person to actually mention pilots. Unfortunately it is in a doubting way. I have had an incident on board recently (a domestic flight) where the CSD entered the flight deck after the 1000' call and asked us to deal with 2 aggressive pax. We said no, but we could call the police to meet the a/c or we could go around and deal with them in the air. She asked us to call the police, and we said we trusted her judgement. Once on the ground the a/c was met by police (well done ABZ tower) and the Captain put his hat on and went down the back to deal with the pax.

The point of this rambling tale is that even though the CC appeared to have no concept of the critical stage of flight, we supported their decisions at crunch-time. And believe me, at that stage in the flight it quite literally was crunch time. And STILL they question us. Yet if the pilot community questions them they are up in arms about it.

On another note, a captain I flew with recently was saying in the crew bus that he was transfering to long haul. The CSD laughed and said he should get used to only ever talking to the other flight crew. The joke is that if the pilots want to upset and confuse the CC they should sit down on the back row of the bus with them and say 'hello, how are you?' Although it is mildly amusing that even the shorthaul CC think the long haul CC are a scary bunch, what does this have to say about our working relationships?

[Devils Advocate]

For the record, the chain of command is (should be) laid down in your company Operations Manual (e.g. in ours it's in section 4.2.2) and clearly states the order as:

Captain, First Officer, Senior Cabin Crew Member.

and believe me when I say that we've had occassions where the SCC / SA / #1 / Purser / CSD have entered the flight deck reporting to us that it's "too hot in the cabin" and then, without even so much as a 'by your leave' taken to adjusting the temperature controls on the OHP themselves - incredible !

[flaps]

And after all this the Plate Layers ask us to taxi slowly so they can have a CAT turnaround??? No chance.

Just after the stupid note in the BALPA rag about FO's no longer getting hotel upgrades cos guess who had complained, I was with a skipper who thought this was the biggest bollocks he'd heard for a while. Picture the scene, after landing in walks Plate Layer (PL), 'oh XXX we only need to be 5 mins late for a CAT' followed by a rapid increase in thrust and taxi speed. Those PL's went to the compass.

Pandora, agree with you regarding sitting on the back row. Some of them just don't know where to put themselves. It's then quite funny if they all end up huddled together at the front when the 2 Flight Crew have all 9 back seats to themselves. On a serious note it doesn't help build a team when one group considers it their territory and resent the FD for sitting there.

But I must also add that in short haul I have come across many excellent Cabin Crew (new term to reflect the better side of Cabin Services), I've had my wife and brother well looked after and upgraded without asking. I wouldn't like to generalise against all CC even if their union makes me puke.

So lets chuck out all this CRM muck and return to the days of the BOAC Barons. Sure we might fly a few into the ground but we'll be so damned awkward we'll get what we want. In a way this is part of the problem. New pilots are recruited by CRM loving (I do support CRM) tree huggers who want pilots who'll get on with everyone, not rock the boat, be adaptable to different people and different situtations, modify their behavior to suit the environment etc etc. For CC it's more important to have a language so we get power crazy ****'s but at least they speak a foreign language.

It's been said above but as pilots we need to make a stand and if needs be pull the same tricks as they. So if the PL complains about the Captain being a perve when he wants her to wear the seat belt, the Captain should report her for a lack of knowledge of FCO's and consider her adverse to safety. Off-load her. Stick to them !!

[MAXIMOL]

In my company there are some of the cabin crew instructers that tell the new recruits to beware of the flight deck and that we are a bunch of ar*****es. Great CRM training!!

There have been a couple of incidents where CC have made anonymous claims against Captains, and yes the Captains were suspended pending investigation. No fault found in the end either!!
Also some of the younger CC have made complaints or accusations of their own seniors. It seems to be the younger generation of today. All comes from not having any respect for anything much, let alone authority. That is not too say that they are all like that, but in these days of airline expansions and births, airlines cannot be as choosey as the have in the past.

[What_does_this_button_do?]

On a recent BA/GB Airways flight we were told by the skipper that "your purser today is xxx and her team of safety advisors will look after you"

SAFETY ADVISORS?, crikey!, who'll be dishing out the grub and drinks?

[kennedy]

Have to put my 2 pence in, there seems to be quite a lot of anger either side of the cockpit in some airlines ( my present one is great, although I'm leaving it was one of the disadvantages, I'm also seeing one of them).

They might be less hostile to you lot personally if you refrained from calling them cart tarts, biscuit throwers, plate layers, and whatever else, and understand that until the sh*t hits the fan they have the hardest job on the plane, that is dealing with the self loading cargo, pond life or whatever you choose to call them.

If the cabin crew are any good, they will do their job well( personally I would never like their job, I probably want to punch a pax within 5 mins), and when the Sh*t does hit the fan they will act as part of the team get the pax off in one piece (which is why we are paid the big bucks)

[Orangewing]

Kennedy - IMHO it is far harder to successfully complete an S.R.A down to minimums in **** weather,with a stiff x-wind at night onto a very short runway,than it is to serve a coffee. To then be accused of being a c**p pilot for doing a (necessarily) firm landing by the junior c/c does not exactly help,either!

[paulsamcam]

As a CSD with BA I value the working relationship I have with my flight crew colleagues, I work hard to communicate with them and also have respect for FC as I know many have for me and my position on board. When ever possible I always upgrade flight crew family to first which considering most are using 54A M47 tickets shows respect for their positions. There are occassions when this isn't possible and believe or not I'm in the best position to judge this. Please lets work together rather than against each other.

[HotDog]

Biscuit throwers, trolley dollies, tart carts. We have another description in Oz that originated in Qantas and it's called "tucker fuc*ers". Generally applied to CC who were suffering from confusion about their nether regions. However, one must not generalise. After all, I married one and she is definitely not confused about her nether regions! http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/tongue.gif http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/tongue.gif http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/tongue.gif

[behind_the_second_midland]

I hardly know where to start. On 757 we have very little problem with CSD's but on 767 LGW and at LHR lonhaul I'm afraid its a different story.There has been countless stories of comments of "get back in your box", "don't walk through first", "you can't have a quilt for rest" etc etc. the problem is deep seated.
Firstly, no other airline in the world pays or treats its cabin crew so well. £30k-£60k for an unskilled job. Also cabin sevices is far stronger in BA than flight ops so whatever they want goes. Its happened before and it will happoen again that CSD's want a change in the chain of command to show them second. This "Captain of the Cabin" attitude is both wrong and dangerous.Unfortunately, as said above the senior cabin crew enjoy almost unqualifies support from their management (commendable) but for the fact we receive very little (suspensions etc).
I believe the SFO in the above incident had the captain's permission but inthe resulting row with the Windsor witch called her a cow under his breath. (mild)
This is part of the problem. Windsor Witches and easily offended Queens. We daren't even barely exert our authority for fear of upsetting the little darlings and ending up suspended.
If anyone doubts this is going on in BA you are very very wrong. This is the tip of the iceberg.


BTSM

ps can we find out the name of this bitch??

No you can't, BTSM, not in public on this forum.

Sick Squid
Rumours and News moderator



[This message has been edited by Sick Squid (edited 28 April 2001).]

[sudden twang]

paulsamcam
just for info I agree fully with your view as far as I am concerned any ( even IM ) BA staff should be upgraded if poss .
However the BA operations manual ( flying crew orders ) states that it is the Captains responsibility to ensure that no unauthorised upgrades take place . Before doors closed it is the station managers task .

Where does it say that A CSD can authorise or indeed block an upgrade .

The SFO was suspended I hear for the interaction with the CSD not the upgrade or lack of it .

[GJB]

IMO:

Flight Crew: Responsible for the safe operation of the aircraft and ultimately the goods or passengers that it carries.

Cabin Crew: Responsible for the safety and welfare of the pasengers during the flight.

Flight and cabin crew are on the same team and should work as one. They should (and largely do) recognise each others delegation of authority and responsibilities.

[tonyt]

it's a real pity that so much damage can be done by a few individuals. Of course rank has its place and by rights should have its priveleges, but that's in a perfect world not occupied by power freaks and bean counters. I spent 10 years in the old bill before joining the slf guardians, it's easy for me to recognise the significance of 'scrambled egg' but some of my contempories have never 'served' in a rank orientated environment before - maybe better training to start with? Then again - with all due deference ladies and gentleman, I was always told that respect must be earned not expected.
Yours aye.

[FLARE DAMIT]

To many young softy ultra left liberals with very little understanding of world events and very little care for creating their own independence, ( oh the state will provide for me, lets go and max out my credit card for fun ). Solution= 12-18 months national service, that should help them on their way.

[minogue]

I cant believe the sheer arrogance that comes shining thru this thread. All flight crew are shining lights, everybody else a waste of space.

For god sake look at yourselves in the mirror and remember that you are just humans after all not some master race. treat people with respect and you will earn the respect many posters here think they are entitled to by right.

Thank god I dont recognise the pilots in my organisation from the arrogant bigoted postings that I read on this thread. Come on silent majority of decent people who happen to be pilots, repudiate these bigots before they give the whole profession a bad name.

[Dogma]

Interesting that the most obstreperous and morally offensive CC member that I have had the displeasure of knowing went to B.A.

Luckily though my company has generally A1 CC. However the whole emphasis of CRM had to be changed following a junior CC member taking the Doc. (Trainer) to task over the conduct of the flight after a minor tec' problem developed.

I have not had any of the unfortunate experiences listed above but I would deal with them swiftly and officially.

It's always the Machiavellian, obtuse individuals that spoil it, thank god they are very much in the minority.
The CSD that shopped the F.O must be so sad! With us the CSD would have escorted the husband or wife to First personally!

[This message has been edited by Dogma (edited 27 April 2001).]

[mainfrog2]

It's so disappointing to see this them and us situation between flight deck and cabin crew in some airlines.

Respect works both ways and is always earned regardless of whether your cabin crew or flight deck. But ultimately the captain is in command.

[Skyjob]

Well, having worked on both sides of the door I can understand (unfortunately?) that the attitude of some pilots on this threat actually makes sense.

Several times, I've heard comments from (former) colleagues on 'the other side' blaiming a lot of things on flightdeck crew and creating their own world behind the door in which the CC are running the operation as if they were in charge, only to talk to flightdeck regarding drinks and meals (sometimes ofered to them spiked!) if already at all. Flightsafety matters are not handled accurately because of this and safety is at jeopardy. For instance, what is the use of telling flightdeck after disembarkation that a few passengers were caught smoking several times in the aft toilets and were reprimanded by CC in due course, however no action was thought to have been required, hence flightcrew was not told of the incident...

However, recently I have also heard on numerous occasions flightcrew (usually my colleague in the LHS) announcing their disgust of CC in general. Statements like "I will only tell them anything which is absolutely nescessary" and "I do not care what happens behind that door" are only some of the nicely put phrases towards them.

Why is this difference while sharing a common place of work. Is that door so thick we can not see through it any more?

I respect the CC for what they are and what they do, I wouldn't ever dream of going back there myself, however the same goes for the work I am trying to do with my colleagues up front. And I can only hope that the attitude of some CC changes for the better so they understand this as well. This also goes for several flightdeck members, btw.

[LargeJet]

Anyone noticed when you check in it comes up with 'checking for incharge crew member' - never seen the skippers name there, not once!!

[TwoTun]

Minogue, you said:
'I cant believe the sheer arrogance that comes shining thru this thread. All flight crew are shining lights, everybody else a waste of space.'

As far as I can recall, no-one on this thread has said that. What people are saying is that:

1. There is a legal chain of command, Captain, First Officer, Flight Engineer (if they have the sense to carry one), and *then* the Cabin Crew.

2. No matter what the senior CC member thinks, or what the CC union thinks, or what the CC Management thinks, the Captain has overall authority on the aircraft, and that includes the cabin and passengers

3. It is not the place of any subordinate to berate any one of a higher position. They may disagree with what their superior says or does, and when it comes to Flight Safety, then there is obviously a responsibility to make their views known, but it is *not* the responsibility of any CC member to decide who does and who does not sit in any particular seat in the cabin.

4. Any flight deck crew member has (usually) many years of experience both in aviation and in man management. We are all too fully aware of any commercial implications of any decision or action we take, and whilst we should listen to others views, like from the senior CC member, we maybe have different priorities. If a Captain on a longhaul flight decides that his first officer should take his main meal in the passenger cabin, because he will be rested and fed upon his return to the flight deck, then CC have absolutely no input in this.

You then go on to say:
'For god sake look at yourselves in the mirror and remember that you are just humans after all not some master race. treat people with respect and you will earn the respect many posters here think they are entitled to by right.'

My colleagues that I regularly fly with fully realise that respect must be earned. Authority, however, does not. In my 25 year flying career I have always treated the CC with the respect that their attitude, actions and experience dictate that they should get. Sadly, in common with many of the other posters on this thread, I have seen that in the last few years this attitude is not widespread amongst many CC.

You then said:

'Come on silent majority of decent people who happen to be pilots, repudiate these bigots before they give the whole profession a bad name'

Just my observation, and I know it's wrong to generalise, but in Big Airways *most* (not all) of the bigots tend to be long serving CC with an axe to grind.

regards
Two Tun

[COWPAT]

Eloquently and accurately put.

I think we can call that game set and match to the good guys.

Well done!

[White Knight]

Well said chaps.

If I need to go long haul anywhere as a pax I avoid BA like the plague; the obviously bad attitude that is directed at the flight deck is also directed at the pax.
Most of them are miserable ba**ards..
What you all need is CC like we've got, 99% of them a pleasure to work with. If a hand strays in to switch on Cabin Seat Power, or adjust the heating on the OHP then they get told firmly but politely to keep hands away from things that don't concern them. Then they know where they stand in the scheme of things, but don't cause problems either because you haven't actually torn them to shreds - as some skippers do.

Anyway, isn't it time that political correctness was given the boot ?? And yes, bring back national service....

[Porcupine]

Blimey, after nearly 20yrs of pushing a tea pot around I did'nt realise how much we are held in contempt,a bit sad really cos I've always got on with all our F/D and have some very fond memories of excellent trips,and good rounds of golf.The vitriol that has come out in this post has left a bitter taste in the mouth,shame really.

[This message has been edited by PPRuNe Towers (edited 28 April 2001).]

[Freighterman]

I have a lot of sympathy for the drivers a BA who are suffering from this CC problem. Get real guys...it's not the pilots who are to blame here. It is the restructuring of corporate culture which results in the reduction of authority of the Skipper. The party to blame is Management. They do very little to support pilot groups...especially when the s**t hits the fan regarding political correctness. As for this attitude that CC are our professional equals...bulls**t! I firmly believe in CRM, and everyone working together as a team, but do the cabin crew have to take mind blowing, stressful exams to gain their licence...are they in constant fear of loosing their job...obviously not. They are not our equals...hence the salary difference. Do they carry the responsibility of the pax?..NO. The CC need to be reminded...because they have clearly forgotten, just who is in charge, and that is the Captain. Who does the CAA chase after if there is an accident? The cc have gotten used to the idea that they can get things their own way by reporting the flightdeck. The cc need a swipt reality check.

[smith]

Want to improve the relationship between pilots and F/As? That's easy. Have a wild party at your layover!

[SKYDRIFTER]

COINCIDENCE?

I find it strange that a similar inverted bias has beeen in progress in the USA.

I once had a F/A seriously threaten to write up a S/O for using the obscene term 'cockpit.' Being familiar with the issue from other complaints, I reminded her that the term came from the French background, meaning 'boat servant's pit.' I was purposely unkind about advising her that her ability to distort language did not entitle her to deny anyone their infamous 'First Amendment' rights.

Another of her pals from the crew came up to advise me that I had no right to hurt her feelings. Eventually it went nowhere.

Such C/C power-trips are equally common in the USA. It strikes me odd to see an identical response by management.

Amazingly, the F/As are famous for doing things which dwarf any obscenities by pilots. While the male mindset finds most of these F/A antics as entertaining, they CANNOT be treated with equal punitive reaction by management. In short, the CC have a license to kill in the USA, also.

A female pilot once tried to make an issue out of the non-personal sexual inuendo's in the cockpit. I remeinded her that if such rendered her unable to function, an engine failure would obviously render her far more unable, and that I could do without her services as a pilot. She gracefully admitted her agreement - on second thought. I later heard her support my opinion.

The sad part, is that we get on the aircraft as professionals. These nonsensical power-trips need to be stopped by whatever means available.

[The Zombie]

99% of cabin crew at BA are of good quality and 1% are not.

There is always ONE that spoils it for the rest.

It is true that respect for pilots & Captain's needs to be earned but ascribed authority and respect comes with the job and there is the problem I feel. Cabin Crew at BA have in general (sorry, to generalise) forgotten this simple point.

A polite push in the right direction is all we can do on a daily basis unless their performance is less than our bottom line.

What do you all you BA cabin crew reading this feel ?

TTFN.
The Zombie

[NigelOnDraft]

Have to agree...

Whilst all these stories are a good warning of when to be careful, they do not reflect my BA experience...

Almost all the CC (SH, LH, LHR, LGW) I have flown with work with us (and I hope we work "with" them) to get the job done in the best (and easiest) way for all...

As you said, just need to identify and be wary of the 1%!

NoD

[Diesel]

The vast majority of cabin crew I have met have been efficient, polite and friendly. Unfortunately it is true that cabin crew and flight crew have different managers and different unions. As a result they have different agreements and indeed cc are far more militant about their agreements than are flt crew. Few pilots know the details of cc agreements and are therefore rather out of the loop when it comes to calculating discretion limits say, or the significance of a delay. Crew look to the CSD for anything significant. In their eyes the Capt is of little significance. He/She just flies the plane.

In addition to this CC are encouraged to speak up (CRM). This has lead to a situaion where any so minded CC will not think twice about questioning flt crew regards their action. Recent examples I know of include a FC suspended on return from US trip as CC reported them for apparently not been suffuciently proficient technically (she said the aircraft was on the runway too long during take off - honest!!) , a captain being questioned in front of passengers when he took a bottle of water without CSD's permission, and a capt being told he had no right to carry a pax on j/seat and if he did it again would be reported....these are 100% true examples.

F.C. have in their way responded to this and indeed not all are particularly polite to cc. Net result is a worsening of relations. Personally I think the whole thing needs reorganising - one management team would be a start.

Is it like this in other airlines?

[greasemonkey]

try being an engineer for ba and being asked by a junior cc member whether u know what your doing because u look to young to hold a technical postion and she doesnt want a qiuck fix and needs to get to jfk!

[paulsamcam]

Most of the comments in this forum are very sad and are not a true reflection of the relationship between BA flight and Cabin crew. I believe it's time to put this one to bed, once and for all.

[Big Jugs!]

OK, this is going to bruise a few egos but here goes.Its all down to a fairly new syndrome which affects approx 1% of the flight crew population usually those who are under the age of 30 and in their first couple of years in command - it's known as Captainitus within the cabin crew world.
Syptoms displayed include the following:1.the need to gatecrash and take over the cabin crew breifing to allocate working positions,inspect uniform standards and eye up potential totty, 2.the need to have control over the service ie the order of service, when drinks are to be offered etc. 3.inability to back crew up when dealing with problem passengers 4.failure to recognise where crm is appropriate ie during aircraft tech delays rather than on crew transport to chat up aforementioned totty and 5. the need to bollock at least one member of crew(this can include long suffering F/O or groundstaff)for no apparent reason in order to assert his authority!!
Other symtoms are too numerous to detail.There is no known cure,most seem to shake it off within a couple of years or on the realisation that the crew are on your side and not to be treated as brainless bimbos!!
Respect is earned not a God given right.
Joking aside, the best nightstops are the ones where we stay with you boys & girls.You can't beat a bit of crew bonding(if you know what i mean!!)

[The Zombie]

OVER THE LAST DECADE I HAVE NOTICED A SLOW DECLINE IN THE ESSENTIAL WORKING RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN CABIN CREW AND PILOTS AT BA.
RECENLY THIS HAS TAKEN A SHARP TURN FOR THE WORSE. HAVING EXPERIENCED MANY 'FRUSTRATING EVENTS' OVER THIS TIME I WONDER WHAT CAN BE DONE TO RECTIFY THIS VERY BAD TREND ON BOTH 'SIDES OF THE FLIGHT DECK DOOR'?

WE ALL KNOW OUR RESPOSIBILITIES AND JOBS SO WHAT IS THE PROBLEM?

AFTER LOTS OF THOUGHT I MUST SAY THAT A HARDENING ON BOTH SIDES IS ONE OF THE MANY CAUSES AND A LACK OF SUPPORT BY PILOT MANAGERS IS ANOTHER. ALSO AN OVER WHELMING DESIRE IN CABIN SERVICES MANAGEMENT TO EMPIRE BUILD HAS HAD A DIRECT NEGATIVE IMPACT.

JUST LOOK AT ALL THE BA PILOT/CABIN CREW THREADS ON THIS SITE AND READ ALL THE FRUSTRATION TOO.

WILL IT REALLY TAKE AN ACCIDENT TO GET THINGS TO A COMMON SENSE APPROACH AGAIN OR CAN WE ALL GET ON AND WORK TOGETHER.

THERE CAN BE MANY MANAGERS ON BOARD BUT ONLY ONE CAPTAIN.....................YES?

WHAT DO YOU THINK CABIN CREW READING THIS ?
ARE YOU ANTI PILOTS AND IF SO WHY?

WHAT DO YOU THINK PILOTS READING THIS ?
ARE YOU ANTI CABIN CREW AND IF SO WHY ?

AS FOR ME I SAY THINGS MUST GET BETTER !

LETS ALL WORK TOGETHER AND ENJOY WORKING FOR THE NATIONAL FLAG CARRIER AGAIN.

OFF TO PUT MY TIN HAT ON AGAIN AND WAIT FOR THE 'INCOMING'.

[WelshCityFlyer]

Thank God the pilots I work with do not have the same crap attitude towards us 'waiters/ess' at the back of the aircraft:

Whilst I agree that SOME cabin crew MAY have an attitude problem to the persons sitting in the pointed end of the A/C, do not tar us all with the same brush.

I am cabin crew, but also fly myself, and
personally do not take s**t off anyone, crew or pilots:

Also, remember that a great many of you <pilots> got where you are more by luck than judgement, (although don't jump down my throat, by no means all). As stated, I've been fortunate enough NOT to run into any of you with the above attitude, I still require 3 hands to count how many times I've been told the following, (by pilots):

1) I was luckier than you, because I was brought up in a much more affluent area
2) Daddy was rich - he paid/re-mortgaged the house, to sponsor me
3) I am more intelligent than you

(This one REALLY pi***s me off:- I personally hold 2 HNCs plus one degree, and of course, the '0' & 'A' levels that preceed them)

Just because I'm a 'waiter/ess' doesn't mean I haven't done other things - none of you know why ANY of us are doing this job, after all.

Anyway, pilots, to conclude, if any of you requested that I put on the 'crutchpiece' in the jumpseat, (remember you don't know my gender), I would happily comply. However, if any perversity was attached to such a request, you would bloody well know about it immediately - straight from the horses mouth. Who needs to report things? there are other methods....

Happy flying all...

WCF

[everybody]

Well I hope I find myself flying with you tomorrow.

If you tell me when you've got a problem, I'll know, we'll sort it out, probably it won't happen again.

Nice attitude. Who needs to tell teacher anyway ?

Although as lots of people have said, a little courtesy goes a long way. Who knows what personal problems that person might be distracted by today ?

[This message has been edited by everybody (edited 28 April 2001).]

[Finalgearup]

Big Jugs.

Well, it's an interesting point. Someone new to command is going to take a while to settle in. Decisions have to be made and he/she won't always make the right ones but at the end of the day it's the Captain that will bear the responsibility, not you.

As regards some of your points. There may be a reason that the Captain in question suggested the order of service. Perhaps he has knowledge of something you don't; say forecast turbulence at a particular stage of the flight. Your remarks regards "totty" don't warrant response.

As for the "Respect is earned...." blah. Don't you think they have earned a measure of respect. The four stripes on his/her arm didn't come free in a cornflakes packet. They were achieved after years of experience, checks & assessment in a cockpit. It certainly took more than 16 days of self congratulation at braincrank!

At the beginning of the flight, we DO NOT all start at an equal level of rank and status and then "earn respect" as the flight progresses. There is a long established chain of command, the links of which seem to be weakening. Of course there are wrong and right ways of exercising that authority just as there different ways of interacting with our colleagues. I think extremely few people, on either side of the flight deck door intentionally go out to p!ss each other off.

One question. Why oh why do cabin crew refer to pilots as "The Flight Deck". It's a place for Bobs sake. Perhaps we should refer to you as "The Passenger Cabin"

[f40]

Just read this whole thread in 1 go. What a thoroughly depressing read it is! http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif

Last leg, from Oman back to Europe on december 30th, the captain of the flight decided that my hair was too short and off-loaded me there and then. No suitcase, no nothing. http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/confused.gif
We'd been on the road together for 7 days, and the hair was the same as when we left home base. :)

Just an example to show that idiots are occasionally to be found on both sides of the cockpit door.
After 20 years of flying I could give quite a few others, but as they are rare exeptions rather than the norm, why bother?

Reading the feelings expresed here I will look at our pilots differently when getting back to work tomorrow!
With a lot more appreciation for the respect they show for what we do in the back, the total absence of derogatory terminology, the faith they show in our ability to get our job done, the way they support us when the sh!t hits the fan and the way the involve us in those decisions where our input is of use.

Since becoming a pprune addict it has become more and more apparent to me the way of life in our company is apparently pretty unusual. This thread has re-confirmed my belief that our blokes&gals arn't half bad and that I'm to be profoundly grateful for the by and large exellent way in which we mange to co-operate on the a/c, and have a very good time together off it!

Gawd I need cheering up after reading this thread!




------------------
Singularly Simple Person........

[411A]

Three pages....and still animosity. Simple really, for the "front end guys", leave the back end ALONE to do their job, ie: problem solved. And as for new Captains who just HAVE to interfere, put a cork in it. You make it much more difficult for the rest of us.

[exeng]

f40,

Nice post.


Regards
Exeng

[Herb]

Odd Reddington tried to erode the respect and authority of the cockpit crew at Cathay and he will do exactly the same at BA. Believe me, the thought of a pilot being upgraded would cause him sleepless nights.

He loves the cabin crew tho'. Personal experience of a lot of them out in the fragrant harbour. ;)

[COWPAT]

411A, How many of your 600+ posts have actually had something nice to say about somebody or something?

[411A]

COWPAT--
Twenty, give or take two. Many pilots (and cabin crew as well) are primadonnas and generally only make life difficult for others. Airline flying actually can be very enjoyable, but some just have to stick their oar in and muddy the waters. Cannot comment directly on BA as I don't work there but they sure do seem to have their problems. And, let us not forget CX, now there is a barrel of snakes.

[COWPAT]

Well, I certainly agree with your suggestion that airline flying could/should be enjoyable, but it always takes at least 2 to party, and I think that is the essence of this thread. I don't muddy the waters as you put it, but to follow your suggestion of "just leave them alone completely" is, in my opinion poor leadership from the Captain.

Its quite possible to be involved without in any way interfering.

Rgds

COWPAT

Edited for spelling


[This message has been edited by COWPAT (edited 29 April 2001).]

[Saab Boy]

If whats being said re-incidents at BA are true then it certainly sounds like that company morale must be one of contempt and mistrust?
Personally in my short career I havent personally meet with any malice or contempt with working with our respected and professional cabin crew.
I think respect towards any company employee whatever their position has to be a comman decency towards anyone working towards the same goals, the safety and comfort of those who are after all providing many of us with the means of employment in the first place.
Ultimately the safety of all flights rest on the Captains shoulders, isnt this is after all what he is being paid for.
Or am I being naive?
Why would any airline allow this situation arise in the first place?
Maybe it goes some way in explaining why an ex-BA C/A would go to such extremes in collaborating with the media in entraping BA pilots in exposing BA pilots as a bunch of p********?
Sadly it sounds like many of us have to watch our 6 oclocks all of the time.

[COWPAT]

More often than not, these problems can be traced back to poor management (leadership) at boardroom level. This results in various section heads taking advantage to build their own little empires and causes frustration, poor morale and a lowering of flight safety standards on the aeroplanes.

If all members of the same airline were ultimately responsible to one person or body that provided firm yet fair leadership then 99% of these problems would not exist.

Unfortunately the very people who need to stand up and be counted are invariably the same ones that are pushing the politically correct bandwagon along as fast as they can.

Quite honestly, the whole situation leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth.

[HugMonster]

Having just read this thread through in its entirety I am, like flaps40, very depressed by it all.

One or two misconceptions seem to have arisen, however, and one or two other points could, perhaps, be emphasised:-
Cabin crew's first priority, and the reason for them to be there, is safety CRM is about getting the job done, about using all resources at your disposal efficiently to secure the safe completion of the flight. It is NOT about everyone feeling warm and confortable, about not upsetting people, or making them feel valued The Captain, followed closely by the FO, is in overall command of the aircraft. When push comes to shove, his word goes. Any Captain who misuses his position or believes he is the big "I AM" will rapidly lose the respect and therefore the co-operation of the rest of his crew. This is probably a bigger safety risk than anything else. Any CSD who starts to feel that he/she is the "Captain of the Cabin" is a danger to air safety and consequently to the safety of the passengers he/she feels are his/her sole responsibility An aircraft commander must be told about any and all issues that arise during a flight that affect safety. This includes any instance of smoking in the toilets, and a cabin crew member who decides not to inform the Captain is neglecting a significant part of their job Any flight crew member who would like an upgrade for a relative is being just plain rude in not consulting the CSD. Yes, it may be the Captain's final decision, but not to consult the person who is responsible for allocating who works where in the cabin is ignoring their part in being one of the team. Similarly, it is just plain rude simply to take a bottle of water without asking. Do you know if there's been a "run" on it in the cabin? Almost certainly not. If you ask, you may be offered, say, lemonade or coke instead, because they're trying to ration out water... If, in the briefing, a Captain wants to "interfere" in the order of service, he can do so. He may have very good reasons for doing so. However, it is incumbent on him to state the reasons why. We're all part of the team, so let's all know why we're departing from the norm. Any CSD who questions or reports a member of the flight crew for "being on the runway too long" or similar incidents quoted above is getting his/her nose where it does not belong. My personal response would be "Who the Donald Duck are you to question me on that?" Similarly, nobody but nobody except suitably qualified pilots (or F/E) touch any aircraft controls, even cabin temperature controls, on my flight deck. This is an issue not only of safety, but of simple courtesy.
Finally, many of the incidents outlined above are breakdowns in Crew Co-operation. Such breakdown is worrying, not least because it means that flying, which can be a very enjoyable time for all, is far less enjoyable and more stress-filled, but also because it is less safe. Any reduction in safety margins is a cause for concern and needs to be addressed. It is not helped by categorisation of people forward and aft of "the door", by increasing polarisation and further alienation, but by dealing with issues and incidents openly and honestly.

Luckily, in my company there is a very good working relationship between cabin crew and flight crew. If there are personal differences, they can (and should) be ironed out. This will not be achieved by suspending anyone unless there is good and reliable evidence of negligence, attitude or incapacity to do the job.

[COWPAT]

Great posting Hugmonster. The only point I would make is that I think you have superbly highlighted the symptoms of the problem without discuusing the root cause. That invariably comes back to poor senior leadership not cultivating (and ensuring) that the right operating philosophy is passed down all the way from the top.

I can't help remembering a big poster in the line engineers building at Linton on Ouse where I did my flying training many years ago. It read simply

"The job of the RAF is to fly aeroplanes. The job of those who do not fly is to support those that do."

A bit simplistic I suppose, but can you imagine the politically correct brigades reaction to something along similar lines in an airline today.

How about

"The purpose of this airline is to make a profit by safely, courteously and efficiently transporting passengers to their destination on schedule. This is achieved through strong leadership and sound strategic planning from the Board of Directors and by effective tactical leadership from the Operations Manager, the Chief Pilot and his Line Captains. All company personnel working with or for these leaders are expected to fully support them in their duties at all times?"

Just a thought!

Edited for spelling.




[This message has been edited by COWPAT (edited 29 April 2001).]

[Capt H Peacock]

An interesting thought Cowpat. The root of this problem is about being a team player. This doesn’t mean ‘I am a member of a team and so therefore I’m just as important as the leader and I’ll do as I damn well pleasy’, it means knowing your place and your responsibilities to the team. The Captain of an aircraft is enshrined and entrusted in law as the person who is responsible to the State, yes the State, for the safe operation of a public transport service, its good conduct, and the security and welfare of those souls aboard. The company might also wish to hold him/her accountable for the £2bn insurance risk, £200m hull value, its trading record and the good name and integrity of its product.

In the Captain’s crew there are those to whom specific responsibilities have been delegated, and they are responsible to the Captain for the discharge of those duties in accordance with the company’s approved operating procedures. With that delegated responsibility there is some implicit authority invested in those individuals for the conduct of their duties, they remain at all times however accountable to the Captain in lieu of the State as its licensed, approved, and regularly verified appointee.

Outside of this structure, this is a rewarding and mostly enjoyable job of work, and many Captains succeed in running a happy ship. There is no substitute for common courtesy and politeness when dealing with your crew mates, and you can easily exercise authority without rudeness or offence if you approach it in the right manner. You can even, in the words of the old maxim, tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip.

That said, it does seem that cousin Nigel is having more then his fair share of problems from his colleagues amongst the cabin crew. Part of this appears to be institutionalised and a facet of the company culture that exists within BA. It certainly does seem that there is an uneven swing to the ‘sword’ :) of Damocles when it comes to the disciplinary process that tends to result from these unfortunate occurrences. That is something for the union to take up with the suits.

I believe the solution is for crew members responsibilities, each and every one of them, to be detailed in a common document like so many other organisations. When everyone knows where the boundary lies, disputes can be settled quickly. Good fences make good neighbours.

As to why this is not already the case in BA puzzles me. From the Machiavellian intrigue and politics that seem to permeate Big Airways, it wouldn’t surprise me at all to find that this is a deliberate ploy to divide and rule, smoke and mirrors. Whilst various departments fight each other for supremacy, they miss what is being done to them elsewhere.

Beware

[BOAC]

What can I add??

[Oswald]

I read this in todays Observer, it's not a solution but it might help a few.

1 Work out your reasons for disliking them. Is it a matter of principle, or less fundamental? If you are working with Adolf Hitler, your attitude towards them is the least of your problems. But you have room for manoeuvre if your feelings are rooted in a personality conflict, irritation at their behaviour or the pressures of your work relationship.

2 Understand that life can be far richer if you can free yourself of loathings, and especially of contempt. Just as you don't want punch-ups at home, if you can avoid antagonism at work, you can look at the issues that really matter. Making yourself feel virtuous by making someone else the villain is a common - if perverse - habit.

3 Think through the situation from their viewpoint. If you work out why your boss shouted at you, you will gain far more insight than if you just focus on feeling badly treated. There will nearly always be some mitigating circumstances: they are under pressure, they misunderstood the situation or they were shouted at by their own boss before they had a go at you. 'The situation is a lot easier to handle this way,' says management consultant Terry Gillen. 'It's a way of taking control of your emotions. You can almost feel sorry for them.' Jo Bond of Right Management Consultants says: 'Try to work out what is making them angry or bitter by seeing them as a vulnerable child.'

4 Find something positive you can engage with and try to improve the relationship from there. Discussing your shared admiration of Barry Manilow could bring out qualities in both of you. But if you can't improve your relationship, you can still work together if you keep your emotions in check. There is considerable evidence of huge mutual loathings in the current Cabinet, but their shared desire for power puts them on course for a big election victory.

5 Be cautious about broadcasting negative feelings, however. Conservative MP Michael Ancram spoke recently of the contempt he feels for Tony Blair, but this made him seem rather childish.

6 Understand that you may dislike some people without admitting it to yourself. If you depend on someone who patronises you, for instance, you may try to pretend to yourself that you like them. Resentful pressure could build up underneath, and come out in disguised ways such as kicking the cat when you get home.

[bacsd]

I have been a CSD at BA for six years,I am not a Manager nor am I incharge of a flight that responsibility belongs to the people who fly the plane.My position on board is clearly laid out in my job description, I report to the Captain of the aircraft.The sittuations mentioned here, are I hope very rare.

[snooky]

FCOs clearly state that Captains are to ensure no unauthorised transfer between compartments takes place once passengers have boarded. Whether this means that he can authorise such transfer is debatable. It may be that a Captain agreeing to such a transfer is laying him/her self open to disciplinary action for breach of FCOs.
What is certain is that the CSD has no authority to upgrade anyone, though many seem to think that they have.

[Myk Hunt]

It is unbelivable to read articles from CC´s.
Of course cc seem to belive that because "CRM" is used to let every crewmwmber in the loop in case for efficient conduct of flight it does not give them the responsibility of the flight crew. What can a cc do in case of hydraulic proplem, stabilizer trim runaway, instrument switching or in case any navigational equipment brakes down.....NOTHING. Not even do any CRM work to use all available sources. I heard that few years ago pursers at SAS (scandinavian airl.) wanted to put in to their FCO ( to some FOM )that pilots fly the aircraft and are in control of its manouverings but the senior cc is in COMMAND of the cabin. Because management and UNION weren´t pu**ies they shut it up right away. And in case anyone is upgrading and the rules forbid it, WHO CARES. Only idiots would let this get to their nerves. Lets all work together as crews but don´t forget who´s in command and has the sole responsibility of the a/c.

[SLF3]

Can someone explain to me how you 'earn respect' by upgrading your wife? Are you not simply abusing a position of authority (and freeloading) by doing so?

[THINALBERT]

SLF,

The "respect" is (or certainly desrves to be) earned through many years of examinations, financial problems and determination to fly for an airline.

Having achieved all that you can, I,m sure, appreciate how pi**ed off we become when some cc, usually with a chip on their shoulder, try to pull the rug from under us, and see abusing CRM as a convenient vehicle to do it. I have a lot of respect for cc who do their job well and are smart enough to realise where they fit into the scheme of things. Unfortunately some have double standard and are the worst exponents of CRM themselves whilst misusing it to attack flight deck. It stinks!

As for your specific comment, well thats another double standard from CC. They do it all the time for their mates, and as we are all on the same side and no harm has been done we usually let it pass. However, when a pilot avails himself of the same opportunity, then "Oh No, Captain I can't allow that. I shall have to report you to management and get you suspended." PATHETIC!"

With apologies to the millions of decent CC out there.

[HugMonster]

ThinAlbert, would you listen to yourself?

[Myk Hunt]

Hug Monster.
Think how you would be in the pilots shoes. He has worked hard to be able to call him self a pilot.This takes dedication and HARD work and believe me it isn´t for everybody. Then there is the cc, who (might have a degree of somekind- but doesn´t make a difference in this job) has taken a 6-10 week seminar about service, cpr, and not least CRM (of course there is more in the seminar but I won´t say all) and they think they are pilot´s equals. Don´t be frustrated or take this the hard way but cc´s will NEVER..... be pilot´s equals. Ofcourse hi did apologise to all the good cc´s out there. Of course there are only 1% of all cc´s this way and those who take these posts badly are the ones that fit in the category.

[THINALBERT]

Thanks MYK.

Hugmonster, I have reread my earlier posting and stand by every word of it!

[whats_it_doing_now?]

This has been meantioned a few times now, and I agree with the notion that the problem lies within the management of both departments. Between them they have created an atmosphere where the few a*****s in cc can really excell themselves, and there is little the pilots are left allowed to do about it. I can understand the rest of the cc using the new found power to get the best they can out of the situation, because quite frankly, anyone in any profession would do the same. What is needed is a change to stop these few who really cause the problems and the reason this thread exists to be stopped in their tracks.

[HugMonster]

It's this hardening of attitudes that would make it impossible to solve the problem.

ThinAlbert seems to think that, because a pilot course is long, difficult and expensive, he automatically deserves respect.

Wrong.

Myk Hunt and ThinAlbert both seem to think that, because a CC Course takes 6-10 weeks, a CC member is not of equal worth to a flight deck member.

Wrong again.

If you treat people with respect, that respect will be returned. But if you treat CC like "Plate Layers" rather than as required members of the crew, there for the safety of the passengers, disdain to ask them before you take a bottle of water from the trolley, interrupt their briefings to tell them how you want the order of service, and generally regard them simply as nice ornaments to have around and as your bed-warmers once you arrive at the hotel, how do you expect them to react?

Yet ThinAlbert appears to feel that all the disrespect comes from aft of the flight deck door, that pilots are all honourable, noble, decent, well-behaved, sensible, law-abiding, sober and god-fearing individuals who never put a foot wrong, and are put upon by these harpies from the cabin who lack all form of decency, politeness or team spirit.

Wrong yet again.

Cabin Crew are part of your team. They do a difficult, tiring and (at times) very dangerous job. They are your first point of contact with your passengers. Treat them as part of the team. Keep them informed, ask their opinions in anything that affects or might affect their job. Be courteous to them. They will return all that with respect.

But behave as if you are beyond reproach or question, keep them in the dark, refer to them disrespectfully, treat them as low-life unintelligent scum and see what comes back instead.

If, having done all that, you still have problems, then your reputation will help you if you find yourself working with a "MY Cabin is my Empire" CSD who interferes with YOUR job, fails to inform you of someone found smoking in the toilets or whatever. And when you find someone like that, talk to them, as straight as is required.

You cannot change other people. You can change yourself. And people will react to that.

[HugMonster]

Oh - and Myk? I am in a pilot's shoes. Captain, regional airline.

[purple haze]

reading these very sad examples does not give me much hope,

working my backside to achieve what most people can only dream of deserves respect whether you have four,three or two stripes.

there are two types of respect, a professional respect and personal respect.
fair enough you don't know the person well enough to give him personal respect but professional respect there must be and it must go both ways, F/D to CC and vice versa.

I feel the problem is that we are moving in extremes, on one hand we have captains of past who were treated as godlike people and what they said was right and there was no question about it. they had huge egos.
clearly we don't want this as this is against good crm principles and could compromise safety as the number one factor of accidents is not pilot error but breakdown in communication.

we want pilots who are approachable and are open to criticism without hurting their egos,i.e. good crm but on the other hand we don't want them to be treated like some cc have done so or are doing.

on one flight I was chatting to the cc and she also told me that on their course they were told to stay away from pilots.

now clearly if that is what they are being taught at an early stage then how can pilots and cc work together. agreed there are some pilots who fall into that group but its important to remember that its a few. like wise applies to cc.

the answer I feel is that cc and pilots should go on courses together and build trust between each other and realise that they are working on the same team and they have one goal the safety and comfort of passengers.

both parties are professionals and have huge responsibilities.

finally pilot unions need more power and unity to achieve recognition from airlines and other proff.

now you might say what the heck does he know, well coming from a background of doctors I have heard similar stories between doc and nurses and i feel the same principles apply.

thats my two pence worth.

[The Zombie]

As so many have agreed, it really is only 1% of pilots and cabin crew that cause a problem, oh and some managers. Most days it is a real pleasure to work at BA.

However there are many organisational problems too at BA that could easily be fixed !

Combine the two departments under the BA AOC holder and not under seperate directors. This is the case already for all safety related things but should be for all matters.

Give new pilots a month of working as extra cabin crew so that they understand that job!
Also give cabin crew more time to fly as extra crew on flight deck jump seats right from pilot briefing to final clearing and not just for a take off/landing. Perhaps the numerous proffiency checks (6 monthly sim) for pilots could also be watched by cabin crew. Why not even let them fly the sim as part of their company induction?

Only by working together and understanding our place in the team and each others problems can things improve.

This thread is certainly washing dirty laundry in public but the potential gains for the increase of any bottom line due to happier passenger makes it worth it.
As an aside any thing that makes our working environment more enjoyable must also be a huge plus.

Happy flying to all Cabin Crew and Pilots.
If you are perhaps part of the 1% of 'trouble makers' then please get another job!!!!!!!!

[THINALBERT]

HugMonster, I dont want this to degenerate into a personal slanging match but, speaking as a Long Haul Training Captain with a Flag Carrier, I feel I have to correct a couple of your errors and misconceptions.

1. Does a pilot deserve respect because he has sacrificed a significant portion of his life, spent all his money AND remortgaged his house just so he can have a shot at working for an airline? DAMN RIGHT HE DOES!

2. Do I think that all pilots are honourable and that respect should only come into the flight deck rather than out of it. NO I DO NOT,.....BUT I do believe that if you asked Joe Public who he/she held in most respect pilots or cabin crew, I think we would see 99% answer "Pilot."

3. That does not mean CC are unworthy of our respect but neither does it mean that they have the right to question the technical and professional expertise of the flight crew, or even interfere with flight deck operation which is what many posts on this thread have shown is starting to happen. We each have our jobs to do, and the number of stripes on our shoulders, the hours in our log books and our previous management experience are all things that DO deserve respect.

If you accept anything less yourself then you are selling yourself and all other pilots short.

[pdc7]

i work for ba as neither flight or cabin crew but work with both on a daily basis. i find both have respect for each other and other departments and it is the 1% that sours peoples opinion. i think that some people need to chill out and relise their place in the scheme of things after all it takes more than 2 departments to make an aircraft fly!

[Alfredo_Garcia]

THINALBERT,

Good posting.

Hugmonster,

I seriously doubt that you are a captain of a regional airline as you are so far off the mark with your comments.

Personalities aside, position demands respect whether cabin crew like it or not. That may be a captain of an aircraft, a surgeon in an operating theatre or a teacher in a classroom, it doesn't really matter, but without it the whole structure of society would break down. I might not like a particular doctor that I get referred to, but if he prescribed a course of treatment that was essential to my health I wouldn't say "I'm not going to take that because you haven't earn't my respect yet".

I don't know which company you work for but BA cabin crew take about 16 days to train not 6-10 weeks and during that time they are fed plenty of anti flight crew propaganda by the trainers themselves. The majority are not very bright and so, already indoctrinated by their trainers, they then go on-line and encounter a hierarchy consisting, amongst others, of bitter windsor bitches and emotionally scarred gays. On the whole, both of these groups dislike pilots for any of a variety of reasons but more often than not it boils down to simple jealousy and the feeling of lack of acheivement in their own lives.

You say that cabin crew do a "difficult, tiring and at times dangerous job". Well, one out of three ain't bad, I'd certainly agree that the job is tiring, but a lollypop lady has a more difficult and potentially dangerous job than cabin crew.

Any amount of people can claim that "It's not like that in my airline" and they'd be right but that's because it's not BA. Your average smaller airline such as BMI or KLMuk have excellant cabin crew that are trained to a high standard and do a superb job, but they are in the high turnover market and do not offer the career that BA do and a consequence, attitudes are different. They also have management that stamp out any nonsense before it can take hold - just look at the sickness rates amongst cabin crew in BA at predictable times each year (Xmas, New Year, Wimbledon etc) yet nothing gets done.

It's widely recognized that similar problems exist within some of the American carriers but their pilots are so well paid that they put up with it.

[Captain Airclues]

Sorry to introduce facts onto a rumour forum but;

1. The incident was on a B777 not a B747-400

2. There is rather more to it than a simple upgrade request

Airclues

[M.Mouse]

Thinalbert

If you are going to congratulate yourself under a different alias then you really must remember to use that different alias! I see you have now reposted as Cowpat. Unfortunately some of us saw Thinalbert congratulating Thinalbert before you rectified your finger trouble. Whoops!

[THINALBERT]

Saw that myself, but nothing to do with me.

[tonyt]

thinalbert - 'sacrificed' ... bit of a strong word to use for a job your all supposed to 'love' doing - according to some threads in here... we all have to give up something to do anything in this world, but I'm not sure sacrifice is the word!

A. Garcia - my, someone's upset you in the past, go have a strong G&T and consider starting the only 'lollypop admirers page' somewhere.

so much vitriol, so little time...

[THINALBERT]

Not too strong a word at all my friend.

Dictionary definition of sacrifice

"the giving up of something, to gain something more important."

Seems quite appropriate to me.

Most pilots "give up" a social life, money, house, time with family (and occasionaly it also costs a relationship) in order to even have the chance of sitting in the front of an aeroplane.

What the hell is that if it isn't sacrifice.

I notice that you refer to pilots as "you" rather than "we." If you haven't experienced it, you are hardly qualified to comment on it are you?

[tonyt]

I did refer to comments made on other threads by some of your contempories, and I did qualify my statement by indicating that we all have to give something up to gain anything.
But no offence meant, wouldn't want to fan these flames anymore - seems to be plenty otheras willing to do so!

[THINALBERT]

None taken mate.

How is life at EGCC nowadays? Had a few happy years there.

[WelshCityFlyer]

Myk Hunt

Actually... think I'll stop right there, (GOD, WHAT A NAME), must have taken an intelligent person to think it up

[scanscanscan]

Captain Peacocks'post seems to have answered the question of why Captains are worth $200,000.00 net per year.
However when Ba Captains are being driven to suicide or to a heart attack by managerial manufactured stress I do not recall seeing the famous State supporting its delegated servant in any shape or form.


------------------
We will do the drill according to the amendments to the amendments I er think?

[HugMonster]

Given some of the comments made by ThinAlbert alias Cowpat and others on this thread, I think I rest my case on the CC/FC respect business. They demand respect from Cabin Crew as of right, but make some of the most disparaging remarks I have heard of their crew colleagues.

Put simply, if you have (and voice) such an opinion, based on no experience of life abaft the flightdeck door, you have no respect for them at all. You are, therefore, deserving (and will receive) no respect from them. And I would not blame them a bit.

This does not help the situation. Get off your high horses, and instead of trying to fan your own egos, do what is professional, what will aid flight safety, what will have the flight most enjoyable for the majority.

And Alfredo? Don't call me a liar, please.

[THINALBERT]

HUGMONSTER, You are missing the point. This thread is not about the 99% of cabin crew who are all the things you describe, its about the 1% who are not. If we treat that 1% well, all they do is take advantage. The Captain is and always will be responsible to the company and the state for the safe operation of the flight. To achieve this he has certain legal powers invested in him by the state and authority by the company. If any CC (or any other company personnel for that matter) try to take advantage of good nature, then they deserve to suffer the full consequences of their actions, and in my company they do. Strangely enough we do not have the problems that this thread relates to and the CC are happy, fun to work with and sociable on nightstops. Comes down to explaining to people where they stand and, of course, strong leadership.

Try it sometime.

Lets concentrate on the issue please. we are talking about a small minority, but that is what this thread is all about.

[VICCYTEN]

I,ve stayed out of this thread so far as my experience is largely military but I,m now flying commercial.
Speaking VERY generally I think CRM can be a licence for the unscrupulous to take advantage (as described above) and that it should be made clearer to all concerned who carries the responsibility and therefore is IN CHARGE of the the aeroplane.

That person is the Captain and I must agree with albert that anyone who crosses the line deserves all they get.

Hugmonster, your ideals are laudable but they wont work with the type of people we are talking about on this thread.

[THINALBERT]

Thanks, you're not COWPAT as well are you?


Hugmonster, Just so that we can compare our relevant experiences of operating with cabin crew.

I have 10000+ hours of which over 8000 have been spent on long haul commercial pax operations, on aeroplanes with MTOW in excess of 100,000kg and arrying up to 16 crew.
Over 6000 of that 8000 hours have been in the LHS and over 3000 of that as a trainer.

Now, Looking at your web page at

http://www.hugmonster.com/ click on "about hugmonster"

Can you please answer the following questions.

1. How much command time do you have on aeroplanes with more than 19 pax seats.

2. How much command time do you have on public transport aeroplanes over 20000kg

3. How many cabin crew regularly fly as a part of your crew.

4. Given the answers to question 1, 2, and 3
How qualified do you think you are to be expounding such strong opinions on this forum.

Please, no offence is intended, but I strongly suggest that you keep your tree hugging for your cub scouts, they will appreciate it much more.


[This message has been edited by THINALBERT (edited 01 May 2001).]

[This message has been edited by THINALBERT (edited 01 May 2001).]

[behind_the_second_midland]

The requested/required upgrade was from club to an empty first class. No doubt the CSD had earmarked first for 3/4 of the cabin crew to sleep in without consulting the captain. Happens all the time on 767/777.

BTSM.

[THINALBERT]

What a sad state of affairs when an upgrade is denied by the CSD so that he/she can abuse their position by sleeping on duty in First Class.

It shouldn't be allowed to happen, and the fault lies firmly with pilot senior management.

[The Zombie]

It happen lots at BA and there is part of the problem. I have seen this exact situation and my wife was left down the back.

Cabin Crew abuse the system and if they are corrected by pilots the s**t hits the fan and no support from pilot managers. But we should correct them.

How many times have we seen this abuse in the last 10 years? (Lots of times I'm aware of).

So it is some thing that must be worked on and moves are a foot to sort this out (eg. pilot input to csd framework course) but it will take time and the pilot managers must do their bit on a daily basis.

By the way 'The BA rules' only give station managers the ability to upgrade and not csd/pursers. But cabin crew are told to do what ever they want by their managers. Captains can move any one at any time in their own legal right. If any one knows different please correct me, I would like to know.

edited for spelling.



[This message has been edited by The Zombie (edited 01 May 2001).]

[HugMonster]

Okay, thinalbert - have it your way.

I note from your profile that you are ex-military. No doubt you're well used to people obeying your every word. But of course, that couldn't affect your views at all, could it?

Not sure why you thing that my experience doesn't qualify me to hold an opinion on team management...

[Micropilot]

A little change of tack again.

I have only had time to read a few of the comments above but some have been very constructive, others maybe not.

I work for the airline that recommends blankets as a way around the crouch strap problem. There has slowly been an increase in the feeling of animosity between CC and flight deck recently. Please note that these are MY feelings on the subject right or wrong.

Part of the problem lies with the more senior CC who have recently elevated themselves above the whole crew, including the pilots, by wearing New Silver name badges. It screams “ I am in charge”, the Captain is considered, by a lot of the Junior CC, as someone behind the “door” that helps the CSD do their job.

On a recent trip the Captain I flew with was a little distressed to hear the closing comment of one CC member to the passengers as they taxied to stand. “ on behalf of the Cabin Crew and most importantly your Cabin Service Director we would like to thank you for flying etc”

The captain wasn’t even mentioned. Very disrespectful.

Then when we have to have a CC member on the flight deck we have to spoon-feed them through how the seat works. Really I mean this is surely part of their SEP. They cannot even work out how to put the jump seat down.

On a recent CSD training course an open question was put to room of 30 potential CSD’s. They were asked how they perceived the order of command on the aircraft. 80% were certain that it went Captain, CSD then F/O. When asked if they were sure, they swore blind that this is how the chain of command went. Well on the few occasions that things have started to go wrong in flight and serious decisions had to be made they found it very easy to look to the front for answers.

The flight deck make decisions everyday that have drastic effects for all on board but the thought processes, the options, the reasons and the stress never passes the cockpit door, only the safe and smooth out come is felt down the back. Sure enough if we do a heavy landing everyone becomes an expert and tells you so, I think I should now start to become an expert on why my breakfast has been cooking for nearly two hours, char-grilled egg.

Look it can be summed up in a couple of sentences. I spent years training and have never really stopped, you can’t, the job requires it. If for argument sake I was to take on the role a CSD for a day, ( normal operation , no emergencies) I am sure that I could make an attempt. Now it may not be a smooth operation and things would be done in correctly but no one would come to any harm. If a CSD had to fly the aircraft even with all the help in the world from the Captain they would not be able to pull it off without some training first.

This is where the respect is lost, in lack of understanding of the job in front of the door. Back in the good old days, on one occasion, a colleague had a young stewardess on the jump seat. She had listened to the other crew member’s comments on flight deck, pay and general bitching and had started to follow suit, until… On the approach suffered a multiple bird strike, numerous problems followed that involved a Pan call going out, a go around and a shut down of one engine. The flight deck did their job, there was a lot of activity and some rapid decisions. Numerous warning horns and bells but nothing that the training hadn’t covered. On the ground they were met by the Red Escorts but nothing too serious, anyway when they turned to see how the third seater was doing she was in floods of tears and scared sh**less. Only then did the reality of why they were up there dawn on her.

Pity not all CC share her insight.

This does not apply to all CC and CSD’s but the fact that it does for some needs to be addressed.

[Magnus Picus]

Got here a bit late, but the whole issue is one that I hold very dear to me.

Perhaps I could add to the debate regarding respect and also prejudice; whether it is due or earned.

The majority of Cabin Crew who are joining nowadays believe that respect is earned by pilots and due to CSD's. The mechanisms that have led to this curious phenomenom are debatable (Some blame training methods, inherent disemmination of propoganda by management or maybe change of psychological profile of suitable candidates).

Personally, I have discovered that in order to enamour myself with C/C with whom I will share company with for the next few days, it is sometimes necessary to be self depracatory about my 'position' for the first few hours of meeting. I never bring the subject up, but quite often I have to "laugh at myself/colleagues" to prove that (maybe) I'm not one of those "egotistical wakners".

My point?

We are both prejudiced in our own stereotypical ways and on the whole the majority of both professions tend to either hide these prejudices or not have them at all. The answer to who is most to blame lies in the paper each group 'tends' to read.

PILOTS - A Broadsheet (Not lacking in prejudice, but intelligent enough to allow the reader to develop their own from selective use of reporting)

CABIN CREW - The Daily Mail (Damning diatribe of 'opinion' mainly based on hearsay and never afraid to express prejudice if it helps their cause)

Yours occasionally sycophantic (Hates being alone for 4 days)

Magnus

[This message has been edited by Magnus Picus (edited 01 May 2001).]

[THINALBERT]

Yes, I am ex military. Very ex military, but that is not mentioned in my profile.

No I am not used to having my every word obeyed without question at all times. The military teaches discipline, not slavish obedience. There is a big difference. It also teaches respect for position and authority.

No it doesn't affect me in commercial aviation although I am very grateful for everything the military has taught me.

Still learning though.

I got rid of the nervous twitch and checking my 6 o'clock for bandits many years ago. Still keep the coat hangar in the scarf though.

LXX, 1 better than LX1X



[This message has been edited by THINALBERT (edited 01 May 2001).]

[behind_the_second_midland]

Micropilot
I work for the same outfit. The 80% is no surprise.I'm just surprised it was corrected(I assume it was!!).
Hopefully JL's comments on compuserve about a light at the end of the tunnel is a start although I'll believe it when I see it. I've said it before the only way to alleviate this is by integrating the departments. This issue has massive safety implications if the chain of command is at all smudged. Maybe the CAA should be looking into it.

BTSM

[Anti-ice]

I too like others have found this thread a long and depressing read, and would doubt that it has happened in many other airlines ?
I really didn't want to contribute to it , but having been referred to by my own f/d colleagues as a potentially dangerous biscuit thrower (on £30-60,000) - NOT, feel very offended by some of their remarks offered here.

I too fly at BA,and in general fly with some terrific people,whom i really enjoy going to work with - cabin and flight crew alike.

I do not feel there is an underlying feeling of disrespect for the flight crew - judging by some of the comments directed at us,the opposite seems to differ.

I think the problem stems from the minority in each community that make the whole thing difficult for everybody else.
Some of these pilot's are obviously enraged by the actions of a few 'difficult' crew and then take this out on the whole c/c community.

This forum should not be used as an opportunity for stone throwing and name calling,thats best left to a playground of 8 yr olds.
It should be used as an opportunity to find ways to re-harmonize this VERY important relationship and make good for the future .

I have flown for other airlines where there was never this problem or even any question of it - why should it be so in BA ?(!)

Please for the sake of the companies good name and the trust we need built there-in use your good sense and professionalism to make good of this.

Just for your info the majority of s/h c/c at BA are on £8,300 p.a.+meal allowance ,not the figures stated earlier . . .and . . .
we are not biscuit throwers , but tend to serve a wide range of freshly prepared meals and drinks,whilst tending to a wide range of varying needs/situations ,more often than not on a long duty day/working week. Thankyou .

[Superpilut]

I don't know how you guys think about this, but doesn't this call for professional help? I'm still waiting for the day I will have flightsafety, CRM courses etc. together with cabin crew. Would be interesting just to get to know eachother and find out how this problem can be handled. Where I work it's not such a big problem yet, but I can see a downward trend. I must say it's really sad...

[Mako727]

From an AA guy stateside, the posts on BA here make me feel right at home. Same exact problem here. A small minority, far larger than it should be, causing most of the problems. Most are great, but the problem FA's thrive in an antagonistic corporate enviroment that has had a history of pitting one work group against another.

If I had to place the order of blame, I'd put the lack of respect for authority first, the gutless among our pilot group who let it occur second, and the corporate culture third.

The societal problems over there might be tougher to beat though. Any place where you go to prison after defending yourself in your dwelling has some major problems.

[HugMonster]

A few points, aimed at nobody in particular:-

1) Respect

I believe that respect is, to a certain extent, due to everyone. I try to treat everyone with whom I work with respect. However, More than the basic needs to be earned by everyone. Nobody gets it as a matter of course, simply because they have a certain number of gold bars on their arm, or a different colour name tag. And if they behave with indifference to others, or treat them rudely, that respect rapidly gets eroded.

2) Behaviour

I have never claimed that the fault lies on either one side or the other of the F/Deck door. There are CC who are wonderful, get on with the job, and are more than happy with the job that their position in the team confers. There are some, I can well see, who would prefer to think of themselves as "Alternative Captains". Similarly, some F/Deck crew will ttreat CC with respect and as valued members of the team, others who are condescending, arrogant pr@ts. This problem is, partly, a result of the attitudes of the latter in each category. If some are misbehaving, do not adopt the hard attitudes to all that I have seen in some posts on this thread.

3) Training and Corporate Culture

If CC are being taught to behave as if the F/Deck crew are a totally different team, if SEP's don't even teach them how to operate seats on the flight deck, if they don't understand the chain of command aboard an aircraft, then something is very seriously wrong. The company's Flight Safety Officers/Managers need to get involved as a matter of urgency, because this is clearly leading to a breakdown of teamwork on board the aircraft, and that is DANGEROUS. Company Management also needs to get involved, because the corporate culture is being eroded from inside, so that office politics is taking over from what should be the first priority every time - FLIGHT SAFETY.

Finally, I personally would make every effort I can to re-establish a good working relationship with an individual with whom I find working to be "difficult". If that failed, I would, down route, read the Riot Act. Back home, I would take the issue to a suitable neutral intermediary, like a Flight Safety Manager. Last resort would be to refuse to fly with that person.

[THINALBERT]

Hugmonster,

Yet again I must disagree with you.

Respect, A measure of how much respect is deserved (to use your phraseology) is the amount of responsibility carried by an individual and, in the case of an airline Captain, this is reflected in his experience, training and qualifications, and endorsed by the company in terms of salary, 4 gold bars and some shiny scrambled egg on the peak of his cap. It should not have to be "earned" from the CC. The level of professionalism that you display should confirm to the CC that the trust and respect that they show because of your position is well placed and deserved.

I dont know what your definition of "basic level of respect" is but I can only assume from your attitude that you are such an ace that you never had to work hard for your CPL (ATPL?) or that Daddy paid for it all for you.

Please, never mind the CC, Have a bit of respect yourself for your own position. Its bloody hard work over a long period of time to sit in the best seat in the house. Its bad enough having to listen to the CC stories at BA, but when one of our own starts devaluing his own position I despair.

[This message has been edited by THINALBERT (edited 02 May 2001).]

[Rongotai]

The question of whether this is a "BA" problem, or a problem of a few individuals, has a rule of thumb answer in the organisational culture literature. If 3% or fewer of a workforce have a given dangerous/dysfunctional attitude, then it is will tend to be regarded as an individual problem, best dealt with by individual counselling, training or disciplinary action - and eliminated through improved recruitment procedures. If the frequency is greater than 3%, then it is an issue of organisational culture.

This is because of intermittent reinforcement of the behaviour of respondents. If I, as a flight attendant, encounter flight crew who are contemptuous of me (e.g call me things like 'biscuit thrower') less than one working day in about 20, then I will focus my hurt and anger on the individual concerned, and I will retain my generally sunny disposition.

But if I encounter these attitudes more than once every 20 working days, then I become likely to adopt cautious and defensive routines - defaulting to an assumption of ill will until proved otherwise.

The trouble in this particular case is that this is working in both directions and seems to be setting up a negative feedback loop. Regardless of where it started, once set up, my negative default behaviour in my role of flight attendant is likely to increase the likelihood of causing yet another flight crew member to also descend into negative assumptions about all flight attendants, and this change will reinforce the negative responses of yet more flight attendants.......

Once the negative and defensive behaviours are being reinforced in this way no amount of pontificating about chains of command is going to change it. Deep level cultural interventions are required. I had believed that Hampden-Turner did this for British Airways some years ago - but if he did, then it looks like he failed.

CRM development in a negative cultural setting like this is worse than no CRM at all. You end up with the kinds of things decribed in this thread - abuse of the kinds of relationships being developed. CRM principles assume certain cultural attitudes, but training in CRM cannot create those cultural attitudes.

I have no personal idea as to whether this describes the actual situation in BA, but one posting sounded warning bells for me. If it is so that flight crew and cabin crew do not do CRM development together, then somebody somewhere has it all very badly wrong.

The other negative indicator, of course, is the descriptive language used by some BA personnel in this thread. Whether this is the language used by >3% cannot be deduced from its frequency of use here.

[THINALBERT]

Excellent posting.

I think that is probably what a lot of us were trying to describe, but didn't get across in the professional manner that you achieved.

So where do we go from here?

[411A]

SQ years ago eliminated this "problem" by limiting the CC to three year contracts, ie: trouble makers gone and new faces did not complain. Not a bad idea.

[Pandora]

Oh, how sad I feel now about this. I was asked earlier this year if I would like to get involved in the cabin crew CRM course at Cranebank and gave it some consideration. The trainers training course happened to be on a weekend when I had other plans so I passed it up. The lady at BA who asked me this said they were crying out for pilots to get involved but there just weren't enough interested. So if the problem occurs at an initial training stage it seems we only have ourselves to blame.
Later this week I'm going to scuttle on down there and volunteer. Mind you, at 4.5hrs NCP it beats doing a morning MAN shuttle. And you can do the course as many or as few times a month as you want. Most do 2 days every other month.
There are 3500 of us at BA. We must be able to rustle up a few trainers. So come on, lets see a show of hands. (The lady has a desk just inside the big office on the left past the Flight Crew Admin Centre, I forget her name)

[bacsd]

Just a couple of points about CRM training for CC at BA.I have just completed my annual SEP checks, on day 1 three hours are spent on CRM and its implications and how we as CC fit into the role.We are shown videos related to actual events and how the crew worked together F/C and C/C.It is explained to us by Pilots what actions they take regarding an emergency sittuation so that we can understand what they are doing, in particular an emergency evacuation and the procedures that the Captain and FO follow before giving the command to evacuate to ensure it is safe for us to open the doors.

However just as importantly for us, it also shows how we as C/C work together on a large aircraft and how as individuals we fit into the larger picture regarding safety.We are then given various excercises to follow as to what our actions would be in an emergency and how as a team we would work together.

Many of the comments on this forum fall into personality clashes and are not some kind of corporate culture, if I was disrespectful to my F/D collegues the Captain has every right to off load me, as I said in my previous posting , I have not in six years of being a CSD encountered any bad feeling whatsoever from any flight deck at BA, and I would be very dissapointed if people reading this thinks this is the exception and not the norm.

I am very proud of the pilots that I work with on a daily basis and putting my life in their hands shows the upmost respect I have for their role.

[HugMonster]

No, thinalbert, Daddy did not pay for my training. I did. And I had to work at it very hard, both before qualifying and since. It has not been easy, and I feel quite a bit of satisfaction at what I have proved to myself.

However, I don't feel that eveybody around me should be so impressed that they stand up when I enter the room, nor that I should be accorded respect automatically for that.

You disagree with that. You feel you should receive respect as a right. Well, I'm sorry to have to tell you that it doesn't work like that in the real world. This is not the 1950's any more. You will not have your crew saluting, addressing you as "Captain" and deferring to you simply because you have four nice shiny stripes.

If you disagree with what I say, then do so - it's your privilege. However, your insulting terms demean your posting, and detract from the points you are trying to make. You see fault only among Cabin Crew. I called you on that, and you said you stood by everything you said. This is exactly the sort of attitude that will have cabin crews' hackles rising. Why reinforce their misconceptions? I agree with Rongotai's post. It is people like you who help the impression among others that "Flight Deck crew are a bunch of jerks who think that they should be respected merely because they're who they are, and don't care how they treat anyone."

My "basic level" of respect is based on my respect for other people's feelings, for them being a human being who has a basic value to the team, for their self-esteem, and self-image. Treat them otherwise and you will remove all of that. But treat everyone you meet, from cabin crew to baggage handlers with respect and that enhances your own image, your own professionalism.

[THINALBERT]

Huggy, Calm down.

I say again, We are talking here about the 1% of CC who do not play ball and treat CRM as a vehicle to screw the system.

Perhaps it would help your thought processes if we could differentiate between personal respect and professional respect. Away from the aeroplane, on a night stop we all start with the same level of personal respect, - fine, no argument there I hope.

However, Do you really have the same amount of professional respect (admiration for the extremely difficult training, financial hardship etc etc) for someone who was sitting on the checkout in Tescos 3 weeks ago as you do for your own position.

I am not saying that the CC are not deserving of respect, but at the end of the day if they could do our jobs they wouldn't choose to do theirs would they.

There are many ways of measuring respect, one of them is your company's salary structure. Your company, I hope, respects your professional contribution with a salary substantially greater than the CC. If you wish to give the same amount of professional respect to your CC, why dont you go the whole way and share your salary with them as well. This is not intended as a facetious comment, but to highlight the fact that you carry a lot of responsibility as an airline Captain (in my case public liability insurance for 2 BILLION US DOLLARS). Now contrast that with the responsibility of CC. I,m not saying that they dont do a valuable job, or that the vast majority of them aren't good to work with, or that we as pilots should in any way look down on them. BUT, they haven't had to work anywhere near as hard for anywhere near as long as a pilot to get where they are. That is why a Captain is due respect and should NOT have to earn it on each and every flight. He can certainly lose that respect if he behaves like an overbearing plonker, but initially it should be given freely. He/She has far more important issues to consider. It is also why your company values your services higher than CC and you see this every month in your salary. Tree Hugging does not work with people who are solely out to take advantage and, as the Captain of a passenger transport aeroplane you do not have the option to turn the other cheek. That would lose respect....fast!

BTW Huggy, if you look at my previous post on this thread you will see that I complimented the post that you seem to think is critical of me. This isnt the 1950s anymore, I do not expect the CC to stand up when I enter the room, I do not view pilots or CC as "a bunch of jerks" but I damn well do expect the CSD to call me Captain until I,ve told her she can use my christian name and I sure as hell expect her to keep me informed of anything going on in the cabin that effects flight safety. Look thru some previous postings, more than one relates to smoking in toilets and the Captain not being informed until the aeroplane is on the ground.

Strangely enough I dont have any of the problems referred to on this thread, neither am I aware of any problems within my company.

Is it co incidence then that we run CRM courses with pilots and CC together and always run thru the chain of command and who is in charge of the aeroplane. We also labour the point that teamwork is important but every team needs a leader and every team member must know his/her place (standing?) in the team.
Thats not poor CRM, its not lack of respect, its explaining to people what their job and responsibilities are and who ultimately is in charge of the aeroplane. And that commands respect. If some people choose not to give that respect, they tend to be ostracised by their fellow CC which soon sorts the problem out.

We also try to get CC into our simulator sessions for NITS briefings etc. You should see the look on their faces when they see the warning panel lit up like a christmas tree, hooters and bells going off, and smoke filling the flight deck. Perhaps you dont have the luxury of a sim, but if you do I suggest it is singularly the biggest factor (short of a genuine serious emergency) in showing CC why we are really sitting up the sharp end.

End of Sermon!



[This message has been edited by THINALBERT (edited 02 May 2001).]

[yellow dog]

THINALBERT,
Respect, from what I read in your posting should be automatically given to a Captain because he has 4 gold bars, some scrambled egg on his/her hat and because they have the company's endorsement. I have to disagree. been a first officer now for about 6 years with various company's and quite frankly have flown with some absolute to$$ers. Rude both to me and cabin crew, a trip to Bahrain once resulted in the skipper getting absolutely legless, vomiting in front of his crew and knocking on a few doors on his way back to the hotel room.(he did have 72hours before he next operated.) I believe Captain's should be setting an example what kind of example is this. Admittedly these examples are by far in the minority but no wonder some crew get the @rse with us if they see people behaving like this.

[THINALBERT]

Yellow Dog,

If you reread my previous posting (which I was in the process of editing while you were making your post) you will see that I have qualified my statement somewhat.

Basically, Yes the Captain should command respect initially for his position. But, that respect is a privelege that he should not abuse. If he does abuse it then he does deserve to lose that respect. In the situation you describe, I quite agree with you. The blokes a to**er who, in the CC eyes has got ALL pilots a bad name.

I was once told the "ideal" definition of an F/O which went something like

Outflies the Captain when its his sector, keeps him out of trouble when it isn't, outdrinks him in the bar, then puts him to bed before he makes a complete ar*e of himself;

Those days thankfully HAVE gone I hope, but some of the old values and courtesy's are still valid. Respect for position until it is abused is, I believe, one of them.

Happy Flying

Edited for spelling

[This message has been edited by THINALBERT (edited 02 May 2001).]

[SKYYACHT]

Over the years, I have flown many times with the operating crew, on both LH and SH sectors. I have never once witnessed behaviour from either CC or FD crew that could be construed as hostile, in fact generally, it is quite the opposite. On many occasions, I have seen the Captain welcome all the CC to the bar, and buy the first round. It is regretable that it seems prevalent that there is a definite "Us and Them" attitude nowadays. Perhaps it is the result of overdosing on "Pink and Fluffy" culture, and bottom line results, rather than emphasising the Safety critical nature of our jobs. On the up side, I still believe that most (Sorry, except Air Liberte IMHO)CC and FD are extremely professional, and wouldnt stoop to such petty backbiting.

Tailwinds

:)

[THINALBERT]

Well, As I,ve just edited my reply to Yellow dog I may as well reply to you.

Yes, I agree. We are talking on this thread about (initially) a BA problem and it has now been somewhat generalised. NonetheLess, my company CC and FD get on very well. We are never short of company for a meal out or a drink and we always have enough in common (even a doddering old git like me) to keep the conversation flowing.

Just seems a shame that a worthless minority are causing all this Us and Them.

Its still better than working for a living!

[MPH]

Once worked for an outfit where the Cabin Crew Union wanted complet responsability of the aircraft, from the cockpit door rearwards! Luckly we had a strong pilotos union, "in those days', and stopped the whole matter, in it's tracks. This, by menacing the company with a strike if,they, didnt do something about it! End of story! The cabin crew and unions should realize that there basic obligation is to 'assist the commander in an emergency situation'. And not to create one! What happened to the good old days where a crew members enjoyed working together and a trip was still enjoyable, or at least tolerable?

[WelshCityFlyer]

Thinalbert

If you expect to be refered to by 'captain' until you decide otherwise, extend the same courtesy to your CSD, and call him/her miss/mrs/mr etc...

Personally, the only people I refer to by a professional name are the clergy and consultants - THEY have earned it

WCF

[THINALBERT]

So has an airline Captain. One day if your life depends on the guys or girls up front doing a good job you might even believe it yourself.

As far as addressing the CSD, I try to make a point of asking him/her how they would like to be addressed, and am quite happy to call them Mr, Mrs, Miss or Ms if thats what they wish.

This is no ego trip, its about acknowledging position and I am quite happy for that to be a 2 way street.

Exactly what has a consultant or clergy done to warrant being called by their title that an airline Captain, Police Officer, Senior Military Officer, Judge, Peer of the Realm etc etc etc has not done?

[This message has been edited by THINALBERT (edited 02 May 2001).]

[VICCYTEN]

Couldn't resist copying and pasting this posting from another thread. I,m not casting any opinions but would be grateful for any thoughts from other Captains or any of the Cabin Crew who are visiting this thread - and most welcome too.


"Anyone ever told the captains the potential liability cost to the captain if he runs out of fuel and servives over central London?
A captain is legally liable to the extent of his worldwide wealth if he causes a death or damage to persons or property.Therefor a pilot maybe should not own any assets personally and have wealth in a trust.
Fuel rules will quickly change when the first airliner runs dry over London.
Some airlines east of Dover are unaware of the LHR 20 mins. They get Cfp fuel from the USA and generally the zero fuel weight passed has errors ( the wrong way ) sometimes as much as 4000 to 7000kgs.
When a passenger buys a ticket are they made aware you plans include having only 15 mins befor the engines quit after touch down?
Why not an extra 2 hours hold fuel?
These are civil passenger airline ( suposedly safe) operations not military war ops.
After a civil airliner runs dry over LHR the airline management will be sacked in the blink of an eye and fuel loads will change.
It is called Tomb stone flight safety.
Why make your Tomb stone befor your time?
If you want the comfort factor of extra fuel take it, but do not expect the managers to give you another 3 year contract of employment when yours expires,this is managerial pressure and their idea of CRM.
A captain must be prepared to walk or be sacked every time he takes a stand and insists upon his safety requirements being actioned and be prepared to live by these rules.
Today the stress and pressure on captains is getting higher and attempts are continuous to undermine the authority and status of the captain.
People not onboard the flight who seek to influence and minimise the fuel load to be carried are guilty of "Interference with the flight" and the "Captains authority".
Authority delegated to him by law of the state, as a Captain Peacock posted.
Questions, What or where is the state back up of its commanders? Has this back up ever been actioned?
Question,Why are the arrival fuel figures not recorded by the Caa at Lhr and reviewed with the same concern as the noise abatements and SID flight paths?
The fact is nobody is "Guarding the guards."
Today the state is not concerned about fuel loads over their capital city.
Another fact? I check the news every night to see if has happened,and say a prayer it never will.
Pray with me lads its all you have got left, nobody who can do anything about this is interested.
Do not let them kill you and be brave and be real captains (not dead ones) and put the fuel "you" want on."

------------------


IP: Logged

[Psr777]

PHEW!!!!!!!!!!

What a read....., in essence I suppose I agree with the argument, with respect to seniority and position etc., however I can't help point out that the industry in itself is somewhat to blame. The cabin crew themselves will tell you that it has changed dramatically in the last 10 years. Seniority seems to no longer be the be all and end all of the job for them as it is no longer advertised as a "career", but just an exciting job to do for a while. Respect for position is much the same, they have lowered the entrance age for many airlines resulting in very young crew, who grew up in a very different society, being very informed about what they are expected to do and what they are 'prepared' to do, and knowing they can get away with it with current legislation as far as dismissals go.

Long gone are the days when you trembled at the mere name of a CSD operating your flight as is the same with the Flight Crew, if you don't want to talk to them, then nowadays you don't have to, if you don't like the way they talk to you....report them for abusing their position!!!

It is all a bit of a mess, but when you cut discipline in any child's life at whatever stage, it will manifest itself and will p**s those people off who went through an "old school" type of discipline, which I feel is apparent in those Cabin Crew who started flying when they actually enjoyed the job instead as seeing it as a way to have a fab lifestyle. In saying that, as a SCCM I also enjoy a fab lifestyle, BUT I enjoy my work also and very rarely have a problem with the BA Flight Crews I have worked with for the last 9 years.

Afford the Flight Crew the respect they deserve, understanding what they go through to attain their position. Any other repect you want to throw at them is entirely based upon what they do to EARN IT, as happens in any career you have.

At the same time I expect the Flight Crew to acknowledge the time and effort I put into building my career as a SCCM and afford me the same respect I deserve as a common courtesy.

In all fairness I have only come across a few individuals who have disrespected me, both Flight Crew and Cabin Crew, and in general it happens only once, a quiet word without being over bearing and the "big I am" speech works wonders.

I believe CRM does work, for both sides. At Cranebank the courses I have attended have included Flight Crew and Cabin Crew and have been a great success with both sides learning a little bit about what happens either side of the door.

As a last point, Thinalbert, when you introduce yourself to the Cabin Crew, do you do so as yourself or as Captian whatever?

If Flight Crew introduce themselves to me using their first name I use it, always (except when in customer hearing). If they do so Captain style, I use Captain and let the rest crew know to do the same.

If it bothers anyone that much, why don't they just mention it to the person involved when it happens, as long as no FCO's are broken, and no-one is being put into a difficult position I can't see the problem, the majority of us are adults after all......



------------------
Safe Flying all !!!

[gbnkr]

Coming home from Gran Canaria I as wannabe asked to sit in for landing/approach and was told by a steward ( who could have been a stewardess!)that sorry no but the head stewardess had friends on and they were models and beautiful and they might want to go to the flight deck! On asking in whose eyes were they beautiful I was blanked but i won in the end as I as a paying passenger wanted the same treatment as others. I wonder when these biscuit throwers stop thinking they are concorde pilots and revert back to their silly little jobs.

[THINALBERT]

Well thanks for that psr777. Nice to get some consructive feedback from Cabin Crew.
WRT how do I introduce myself, its a good point. What I usually do is say something like "Good morning, I,m (insert name no captain) pleased to meet you." Now the fact that I,m wearing a Captains uniform usually means (95% of the time) that the reply is something like "Oh Good morning Captain, my name is (insert CSD name)pleased to meet you."

Now as far as I,m concerned the mutual respects have been exchanged and I usually reply "Oh please call me (insert christian name)."

As far as the posting went by gbnkr that attacked the Cabin Crew, please have this one on a captain

"PLONKER"

[This message has been edited by THINALBERT (edited 02 May 2001).]

[Psr777]

http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/tongue.gif Glad to see you got there before i did hehehe!! http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/tongue.gif

------------------
Safe Flying all !!!

[j2000]

Sorry to be boring....
But I think that certain people posting reply's on this thread seem to have forgotten that the cabin crew and flightdeck crew are a TEAM, more effort should be spent trying to cultivate this relationship, instead of trying to find fault with each other, over somtimes minor and trivial things.
We should look out for each other, and try to cover each others backs instead of stabbing them!!

Happy flying all

[Psr777]

http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/tongue.gif glad to see you do it before I had a chance!! hehehe http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/tongue.gif

Do you fly the 777 Thin Albert? It is the only aircraft I fly on, and we really do have a Great Flight Crew.

------------------
Safe Flying all !!!

[The Zombie]

OK (bottom of page 9)it must be time to put this one to bed!

Lets sack the 1% and the rest can enjoy themselves again.

==========================================

So thinking about what is good with the world of BA, I wonder if the rumours are true that there will be a reasonable profit share again this year paid in the summer!!!!

:) :) :)

[capt cynical]

After 27 years at the "Aviation University of Life"this humble old ex-Chief has formed his own 10% theory.
That is, in any group of people roughly 10% are going to be Ar$%(*es. This group usualy takes up 50% of my time on most sectors.
Unfortunately it also applies to my fellow workers in all sections of the industry.
Agreement and dissenting views welcome. http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif

[This message has been edited by capt cynical (edited 03 May 2001).]

[Speedbird175]

Oh yes, Cabincrew are the bain of my life. They are there for the passengers safety primarily, but dont forget us at the sharp end, weve got to be respected to the highest degree.

Ding dong, make me tea dear.

[VICCYTEN]

Sorry old boy, dont understand your banter.

Perhaps inserting one of your other posts here might clarify your attitude.

Speedbird175
PPRuNe Line Training
Posts: 3
Registered: May 2001
posted 03 May 2001 13:59
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well im not the youngest for command, but i got SFO on B744 at 32, now im 36 and 18 months Command on B744 with the worlds favourite airline.
Not married nor never will be, just enjoying the girls!



[This message has been edited by VICCYTEN (edited 03 May 2001).]

[Aerial Anarchist]

Having sat for 40 mins and read all of these BA posts I feel quite happy to continue with what I do and have no urge whatsoever to drive to LHR or LGW and work with such a load of W..kers! many of you should be ashamed of yourselves.

[AceMacCool]

Yo! Slow Down dem Donks!
Are the CC perfect? Are the FD perfect? God knows are we all perfect?
Lets get on with the job. PLEASE?

------------------

[Speedbird175]

Well Viccyten!

Yeah youve got it in one! You see how perfect i am and successful.

Nothing wrong with my attitude Sir, why are you jealous because ive got grovling cc at my feet? all looking for my seal of approval.

I enjoy my lazy life, but the social side better old boy!

You knowwwww http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/tongue.gif

[M.Mouse]

Viccyten

Speedbird175 sounds very much like that other well known idiot NormalNigel. If he is not then full marks for making equally crass postings.

[Capt PPRuNe]

I think it is time to put this one to bed. Overall I think we can agree that it is only a minority of cabin crew who are causing this animosity and friction in the same way that it is a minority of flight deck who have an attitude problem.

It would seem that the word 'respect' prompted a sub-debate within this thread and although the two main contenders, THINALBERT and HugMonster were having a fairly clean fight which only sunk to gutter level for a few moments during the middle rounds I have to declare THINALBERT the winner on a points basis.

Overall though I don't think the two of you were that far apart and if HugMonster ever joins THINALBERTs airline and finds himself in the sim with him as instructor, that THINALBERT will have as much respect for HugMonsters plight as I know HugMonster would have for THINALBERT in any circumstances.

The corporate culture does seem to play an important part in the way the different departments are set up and managed. As a company grows and expands there will inevitably be departments vying with each other for budgets and as the standard of management in many companies can vary and some leave a lot to be desired, there will inevitably be some 'Ivory Towers' and then it becomes even more difficult to deal with ingrained attitudes which are often instilled into new recruits at an early stage.

A few of the posts have been made by pilots or wannabe pilots who will find it hard to make the grade purely looking at their level of argument and terminology. Anyone who refers to cabin crew as 'biscuit throwers' or any other derogatory term in the context of what is a serious debate does not deserve anyones respect. Yes we can have a laugh with cabin crew and call them that if it is in good humour and you are also prepared to have your personality put down jokingly because of its 'contraceptive qualities' which are supposed to be inherent in all pilots but to refer to them as gbnkr has in his post makes me shudder to think that someone like him may one day be applying to an airline for a job. Hopefully he will have matured sufficiently by then to relise what a prat he sounds like right now. With his attitude I would be prepared to bet that he is on a ‘self improver’ route and has not had to go through any sort of selection process.

Overall I think that the debate has been useful, especially if it made Pandora become a CRM trainer and if it has placed the topic on some managements desk if only to highlight that there are some problems that need dealing with before they get out of hand. Just as ‘no news is good news’ and we all know that most of the news we hear is the bad kind, it is also a fact that the overwhelming majority of cabin crew we have to work with as pilots are doing a good job, know the chain of command and understand that we are working as a team in the interests of safety and the few cases that have been mentioned in this thread are not the norm but exceptions.

------------------
Capt PPRuNe
aka Danny Fyne
The Professional Pilots RUmour NEtwork

[AceMacCool]

Dear (Mini.Maxi) Mouse.,
Well said! OK, I am a pilot and I am very proud of it! Why shoudn`t I be? Nor should the Cabin Crew be any less proud of their position! Whats the deal over there in the UK?

[Captain Airclues]

VICCYTEN

You might be a 744 captain with the worlds favourite airline, but not with BA at that age.

Airclues

[normal_nigel]

Mouse

Glad to see I figure in your daily thoughts. I'm not 175 atually.
As for the -400 captain. If you were SFO at 32 that means you joined when you were 28. If you're now 36 that means you've dome 8 years. I'm sorry but not even in you're wildest dreams are you a BA -400 captain. EOG maybe.

NN

[flt_lt_w_mitty]

Surely, if he's in COMMAND of a BA 747 he must be a CSD, or have I missed something?
Walt

[basil fawlty]

I worked as a maintenance engineer at BA for several years and must say that on the numerous occasions that I enjoyed the dubious benefits of staff travel I was treated well by the cabin crew. I am now a flight engineer at a (very) different company, and all of my flying experience is on freighters, so I can't comment on treatment from "the other side". My father is a retired BA flight engineer however, and he says that in his time most were okay, there were just a few bad apples/complete s**ts, like in all walks of life, not just aviation. Trouble is it seems that these days in BA these individuals are not getting the b*ll*ck*ngs that they deserve.

[VICCYTEN]

Er Captain Airclues

Completely agree with your posting but I think you meant to address it to Speedbird175. Didn't you?

The remarks I believe you have attributed to me are simply copied and pasted from Speedbird175s earlier posting in an attempt to show him up for what he is.

regards

VICCYTEN

Oh that I was only 36!

[This message has been edited by VICCYTEN (edited 04 May 2001).]

[behind_the_second_midland]

Also if He's done 18months already that got him -400's after 6.5 yrs. Dream on. I agree with flt mitty, probably a purser or csd(note small letters from now on)

BTSM

[wtpurser]

Hey folks chill out !!

Theres is always going to be a barrier between flight crew and cabin crew because they have different jobs which come together to form an excellent team(sometimes !)

As there always is there are cabin wan**rs and flight wan**rs, just got to get on do the job.

Chin up !, remember your flying for the best airline in the world...


Cheers,
WT.

[Capt PPRuNe]

Now you see what sort of confusion can reign if you don't use the proper codes and punctuation. If VICCYTEN had checked the FAQ's and used a bit of UBBCode there would be none of this. VICCYTEN's post should have looked more like this:
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Speedbird175
PPRuNe Line Training
Posts: 3
Registered: May 2001
posted 03 May 2001 13:59
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well im not the youngest for command, but i got SFO on B744 at 32, now im 36 and 18 months Command on B744 with the worlds favourite airline.
Not married nor never will be, just enjoying the girls! </font>

Anyway, off on a tangent here so closing this one for now.

------------------
Capt PPRuNe
aka Danny Fyne
The Professional Pilots RUmour NEtwork