People in glass cockpits shouldn't throw stones? Rafale cheek....

[Jackonicko]

There's a cheeky 'Almost/Most' Rafale ad on pages 76/77 of Flight (7-13 June)?

"Rival late generation fighters offer your armed forces almost everything required. They're almost on budget. They're almost on schedule. They're almost ready to fly the full range of missions needed to be truly effective. But what if 'almost' isn't good enough?Omnirole Rafale offers the most versatile, most cost-effective, most technologically evolved military performance available in a late generation fighter today. Rafale. A most welcome alternative to endless promises, and almost endless delays. Rafale. The OMNIROLE fighter"

I had to chuckle. It's pithy and pointed, and even funny. But is it fair?

Are they seriously claiming that Rafale is on schedule? On budget? "Ready to fly the full range of missions"?

Really?

I thought it was at least ten years late, and that they'd found a €1.5 Bn hole in the funding?

I thought that the only Rafales in current operational service were the Aéronavale's F1 standard jets, and that they offer little real improvement over the F-8 Crusader - carrying only Magic, Mica, and a refuelling pod?

I thought that the RAF, the Germans, the Spanish and the Italians all got their single-seat Typhoons before last Friday, when the Armée de l'Air got its first single-seater?

I thought that most of the clever stuff wouldn't happen unless and until they got an export customer who would help pay for it?

Or are we just talking about different lengths of 'almost'?

[Onan the Clumsy]

Excellent thread title btw :ok:

[VitaminGee]

We're definitely talking about different lengths of something.............!

What they won't tell you is how much of what they have delivered actually works/is fully integrated/has crews fully trained and authorised to operate/fire/release/drop etc.

There may be scope for another thread on military sales speak (a la estate agent speak) and what it actually means. For instance, what is the difference between a multirole and omnirole fighter in reality?

[AngloPepper]

offer little real improvement over the F-8 Crusader - carrying only Magic, Mica,.........

Really Jacko? That's a bit of a stretch even for Typhoon Fan #1

[Gegene]

According to my books, you don't know Rafale nor its progrmme wery well.



"I had to chuckle. It's pithy and pointed, and even funny. But is it fair?

Are they seriously claiming that Rafale is on schedule? On budget? "Ready to fly the full range of missions"?

Really?

I thought it was at least ten years late, and that they'd found a €1.5 Bn hole in the funding?"

I thought it was the only one which haven't experienced technical problems that caused the aircraft to be nicknamed the "Hangar Queen", grounded for two years, to crash or need a major structural redesign, (Typhoon = FCS + engines, JAS39 = FCS, F-22 = FCS, F-35 bad design management).

I thought it was the only one which delay was entirely related to finances.

I thought it was necessary to have a minimum level of untellectual honnesty to write in something usually as good as AFM.

I thought it wat the very superior "F-8 derivative" which outted Typhoon in THREE major competitons Korea, Holland, Singapore, and will probabilly win its first major export order soon...

I thought smart guys would KNOW that AdA had their first Rafale C (C101) some time ago in OPVAL at Mont de Marsans but that it was the delivery to the active squadron forming at St Dizier (EC 1/7) which was the subject of this agitation.

I thought a good reporter would have been looking at the Assemblee Nationale documents to figure exactly what was the finances status for the Rafale programme.

I thought NO Typhoon squadron had been put to full operational status YET, that when this happens, the entire world will be loudly made aware as is the use for the Eurofighter company.

I thought that even if Eurofighters partners doesn't officially put it this way, the aircraft, fresh from the factories are still not only in OPVAL but also NOT at the definitive standard requiered just YET.

I thought they (Eurofighter) are about three years behind in type developement and that their capabilties aren't anywhere near to be equal to Rafale standard F2.

But the best part, the one that proves that the Eurofighter "clan" have been outsmarted:

"I thought that most of the clever stuff wouldn't happen unless and until they got an export customer who would help pay for it?"

I thought assumption to be the mother of all FCUK-UPs?

I thought that after the Quinetiq "clever simulated demonstration" on Typhoon so called superior performances they would have learned their lessons?

I thought our Defense Minister was somehow smarter than yours?

I thought that Rafale was a far better design, a better system and had better performances in real life? (Not in the fancy Typhoon sites you guys are visiting these days).

I thought that potential export custromers could easly have spoted this, and that's the reason why Rafale leaves Typhoon behind in every competitions they are pited against.

I thought a new radar, new OSF, improved SPECTRA, new EMTI and avionics are making Rafale even better than it was.

I thought SNECMA havedeveloped the 90Kn M- 88-3 for thefutur upgrade, and that Dassault's designers have been smart enough to give it enough growth and upgrade potential.

I thought that any aircraft with a developement time that long would need the same treatment, but that Typhoon didn't get most of the clever stuff.

I thought the "clan" are pissed off at the way the Rafale programme goes and cannot accept the fact that one get what one needs.

I thought we where talking about different standards of information and intellectual honnesty here.

Thanks we're proud of France the Rafale GIE Thales, Snecma and Dassault but more to the point, fade up with some guys constant abuse and use of the excuse of their ignorance:

My pic: Learn French if you want ot write anything about our aircraft, my prediction. Singap[ore is ours, so is Greece.

Have a nice day gentlemen.

:D

[Circuit Basher]

OK, who's first with the cheese eating surrender monkey??!! :D ;)

[16 blades]

...you mean, this:

http://home.comcast.net/~gearjammer/Cheese_Eating_Surrender_Monkey.gif

:} :} :} :} :}

16B

[juliet]

well this guy gegene seems to have some interesting points. anyone able to provide a better argument than "surrender monkeys" or is that all you get on here when you cant face up to a proper debate? just waiting for the usual comments about spelling to be brought up too. dont know anything about either program but would like to hear some decent opinions.

[Gegene]

Exactly what i expected from some of you at least. Any comments on my remarks?

I have a present for you boys.

Click'n'enjoy.

http://img82.echo.cx/img82/782/photo26.jpg

Staight from combat Op and still in OPVAL.

http://img52.echo.cx/img52/5763/blasonheracles.jpg

[soddim]

What might be more interesting to debate is why one of the founding members of an integrated Europe went it alone with Rafale instead of staying with the Eurofighter.

Now we have two types in export competition and one European Nation competing with a European consortium - hardly the most effective behaviour in a trading block such as the EU.

If Rafale is better than the Typhoon in cost/timescale/effectiveness it would not be surprising because multi-national projects are certainly slow, cumbersome and expensive. However, economies of scale can only be achieved with numbers and the bigger the export market the better. Splitting it makes no sense at all.

If European aerospace is to compete with America and soon, China, we need to smarten up our act.

[Gegene]

Dassault was the most experienced of all partners (more than 90 prototype since 1945 before joining the programme, Rafale A being No 93) and wanted design lead. The reason was they had quiet a lot of tight specs from Marine Nationale and the Typhoon design was snot easyly navalysable if i can put it this way:

First low speed:

Rafale close coupled canards energises the boundary layer over the win in a way no other aircraft does.

http://img63.echo.cx/img63/3474/C01.jpg

http://img9.echo.cx/img9/8494/rafale0210243ve.jpg

Second. Air-intakes. On Typhoon they are "boxed" side by side under the fuselage, this implies that to adapt the airframe to the stress of repetead chocks from traps, the weight penalty was higher than with separated intakes which doesn't need to be beefed-up.

This is why there is no Naval Typhoon.

http://img214.echo.cx/img214/3153/mbringback4ri.jpg

But this one have a hell of bring back capability:

Two 1.250 L tank probabilly empty but also six (6) AASMs of more than 250 Kg each.

Also they weren't happy with the dual chin intake solution because of the risk of double flame out. Un case of one engine dying on you, the pressure bulid-up in its uintake glove bleeds over the intake lips and "polute" its airflow, i believe this is what caused the Spanish Typhoon double engine failure during an engine iddle flight test.



They went further:

Rafale is the most aerodynamically developed Canard delta i have seen so far. Even more so then the HIMAT drone, which datas were used to design Typhoon.

http://img74.echo.cx/img74/3441/Intake-Left-arrangement.jpg

They used compression (A) and expension (B) airflow to increase the boundary layer airflows energy on both side of the wing.

http://img76.echo.cx/img76/4244/Compressiveflow.jpg

http://img83.echo.cx/img83/4456/Expansiveflow.jpg

As a result, they were able to fly it passed 100* AOA and 40 Kt negative spoeed without loss of control. Go beat this with Eurofigher and i still have to hear about the CCV F-22 doing any better.

[engineer(retard)]

Gegene

Why do you only quote types since 1945, any problems with your combat design capabilities before then?

Why so many prototypes, do you have a problem getting things right first time?

The Charles de Gaulle has been a disaster for the French navy, and the ship is known amongst sailors as le bateau maudit, or "the ship of the damned". It has never completed a tour of service. In November 2000, a large segment of one of the 19-ton propellors broke off during exercises in the Bermuda Triangle. The ship limped back to Toulon to discover that the manufacturer, Atlantic Industries, had gone bankrupt the previous year, so the propellors were cannibalized from the older carriers. Vibration in the rudders means that it cannot exceed 15 knots despite being powered for 27 by its two reactors.

Prior to this, the ship had to undergo an expensive modification when it was discovered that the flight deck was actually too short to operate the US-made Hawkeye radar surveillance aircraft. In addition, the decks had to be repainted, because the paint corroded the arrest wires needed for aircraft to land. In 1996, the casings surrounding the reactors needed reinforcement because the crew were being exposed to dangerously high levels of radiation.



Close coupled canards - go look at the J10 and Gripen, nothing unique there.

The reason there is no naval Typhoon is there was and is no requirement.

The rest is just drivel.

[Gegene]

Is that all you've got? I wont bother correcting you. If this is the level of situational awarness and accuracy of intelligence in your forces, you're going to have your back side biten by the Zulus next time you try them. Keep at is sunny you're perfect for a snack.:p

So far my friends i'm laughing.:ok:

[engineer(retard)]

Just doing the same as you my friend, quoting newspaper articles to support my point of view. One of the joys of the information world is being able to find plenty of information to support any mad proposition you wish to put forward.

Publishing military intelligence on a public forum is not generally considered intelligent, that is the way to get your backside bitten by the algerians.

Keep laughing you need all the help you can get.

[Navaleye]

Gogo old boy. Good to have you back somewhere you don't belong. Don't respond to him it only encourages him !

[Jimlad]

Hurrah, Navaleye also recognises the troll is here (Gogo / Gegene). The mods really need to deal with this guy quickly as he follows a standard pattern - firstly vaugely reasoned argument, in response he quickly degenerates into an abusive pattern, throwing abuse out left right and centre and claims that anyone else is an amateur and that he is the fountain of all knowledge. This is based on two years claimed national service as a lance corporal in the French airforce in the 1970's. I suggest a pre-emptive ban is in order for this guy as I have seen him wreck entire forums before with his rantings.

[GeeRam]

Perhaps a zoo-like "Do not feed the Troll" banner somewhere would help........;)

[Gegene]

I'm not coting news papers YOU are.

This is what the difference between you and i is:

All my comment i can bring them to YOU in the form of scans from Jane's all the world's aircraft from 1980 to 2005, all in due form.

You can't begin to contemplate facts and have little to bring us a proper infos. Keep at it.

[ORAC]

Soooo, how many export orders has the Rafale picked up then?

[Jimlad]

oh this is too good - the trolls been here less than 24 hours and he's already accusing everyone of being uninformed. For sheer comedy value this could be quite amusing to watch :)

[engineer(retard)]

So you think that Janes all the worlds aircraft is the source of all knowledge. Try doing the job for a little while and then you will realise that you cannot publicly share what you know. Amateur

[Gegene]

If you think i post these for the stake of making a splash and tease the British here you're wrong.

What interest me is how it is in real life and what i read in many forum and even the Anglo-American specialised press is sometime out of this world.

France is rather discreet and more how could i put it... passionate about aviation? I can think of many occasions where the other nation aircraft have been praised by the French press, in most publications even today, the US/Uk cannot even publish a proper plan 3 view of Rafale, it's the combination of the A and C/D they are showing. Guess what, even Jane's 2004-05 edition, i wrote to them for correction and they said...Thank you

2engineer(retard)

No i don't, there is a lot more to what i know about it. But it is certainly a good base for developing a research and far better than the tabloids your pal was mentioning.

Amateur toi-meme.

[Widger]

Genegene

Ne vous levez pas à l'amorce

:ok:

[engineer(retard)]

As for the tabloids, I was in France when La Monde headlined the carrier being too short. As a good base for research you need to do something more than read the press, their information comes from industry who will not publicly sell their kit short and tend to publish specifications not data. I suggest that they got their Rafale pictures from Dassault, perhaps you should check with their configuration control manager.

[Gegene]

engineer(retard)

You know you've been talking horse manure as some of you guys does while pretending giving a professional opinion.

Fact is France have strike capabilties you don't have as well as long range AEW you can only dream of. Cut the bulls and show us what you're really about.

Got anything else than an attempt to flame? I thougth NOT.

There no arguing with facts and trying your best to get the poster instead of the subject is only an admission of failure.

What i got from Dassault you can only dream of. Try something else.

I'm not impressed.

2Widger

That's a roger sir, i had some very intensive training with the best flamers in the world. Believe me this was the best they could but megod, they're good at it.

I'm desperate for the seriousness and the professionalism i was used by living and flying with some real pros.

These are the guys who are interesting to read and to learn from. Thanks for your kindness.

[Widger]

Gegene

Ne vous levez pas à l'amorce. La plupart des poteaux que le crticise votre pays sont du bleu-clair qui ont toujours eu l'équipement inférieur. Les bleu-foncé (Marine Nationale) comprennent que de ce que les Français sont capables et ont donc le respect pour votre équipement et équipage aérien.

[engineer(retard)]

Who has the record for flaming?

If you want to know what we have got read Janes. If you are doing serious research into military capability then look at source material not sales brochures. If your research is serious and you have credibility then you may get it. Asking for sensitive information on a public forum is futile. Shame there is not a smiley for a moon at this point.

Widger

It'll be the best capability on paper or in storage I'm afraid.

JimLad

Understood your advice, and he has reached your 2nd level. I know I should not but I've time to kill before I go on holiday.

[Widger]

Keep going RETARD we are nearly on thre pages now. I am impressed you've got an argument going on two separate forums!

[engineer(retard)]

Will have to go some to catch up with Sea jet then. Hope you get your finger unstuck from your Caps Lock button. I think that french is such a romantic language, don't you?

[Gegene]

So far i'm laughing...

Absolutly no substances and no further comments on the subject. Record for flaming? I you mean correcting the innacuracies of the arrogant pretenders, well that's ME.

And i did it rather succesfully which is not your case boys, you made little impression and certainly not that of a seasoned pro.

Have a nice day.

As for the export, no hurry mate, we'll have them sooner and larger than Typhoon. Just watch.

2Widger

I know exactly what you mean, yesterday there was some guys bashing up a few Russians in another forum; when it's not the French it's someone esle, this is low estime to my books.

And always the same stuff, no substance only assumptions, false claims uncheckable infos on the ground that they are pretending to be some (?) whatever.

I'm not interested, the real though necks aren't showing off at the first opportunity and when they talk (or write) you can tell who they are.

I hope they don't give responsibilities to such guys in the forces....

Enjoy your W-E mon ami.

[DaveyBoy]

If you're that upset we get a 3bn rebate from the EU, just come out and say it instead of trying to make this about Typhoon...

[ORAC]

As for the export, no hurry mate, we'll have them sooner and larger than Typhoon. Just watch.

Sooner? The Austrians have already bought Eurofighter. Better luck with the larger...

[SSSETOWTF]

Isn't this all a bit like debating in 1937 whether the Spitfire or Hurricane is better? Both the Typhoon and Rafale are barely out of the prototype stage and probably have 40 years of maturing and development in front of them.

At the moment, you can strap a Litening II pod and some Enhanced Paveways on just about anything from a B-52 or an A-10 to an F-18E and you have a fantastic air-ground platform. Similarly, if you've got a datalink, helmet sight, Amraam/Mica/AA-12 and a high off-boresight IR missile you have a fantastic air-air platform. Variables such as pilot training, currency, rules of engagement and the operational scenario you're facing also complicate the debate considerably.

Is Rafale better than Typhoon? Maybe. Maybe not. I don't think there's any way to get a definitive answer just from reading Jane's and quoting lots of wind tunnel data and the number of Part II deficincies that test pilots have found. Of course, if you're particularly proud of the amount of time you've spent reading Jane's and want some form of admiration - you have it already. Well done Gegene.

[CAC Runaway]

Anyone tried doing a search on Google (http://www.google.co.uk) for French Military Victories and clicking on the I'M FEELING LUCKY button? :D

[16 blades]

Dear All,

please ignore this trolling idiot.

Yours sincerely,

16 Blades

[Jimlad]

He's now reached stage 2 - the abuse and questioning of everyones credentials because they don;t agree with him. He then claims they are ignorant and will shortly start on personal abuse and claim that everyone bar him is a flamer.

I've seen this happen on more boards than I can remember with this guy, I may well drop the mods a line soon to alert them to what is lurking here.