Lightning shootdown of Harrier?

[brickhistory]

Hello,

I was referenced to this site in seeking info on the story about an EE Lightning having to shootdown an abandoned Harrier sometime in the 1970s.

Anyone have the gen/bogeydope?

Many thanks,

brickhistory

[Akrotiri bad boy]

I don't recall a shootdown. However, if my Keo addled memory serves correctly, there was an unfortunate in-flight incident concerning a Boscombe based Harrier which resulted in the aircraft continuing unmanned. I can't bring to mind the ultimate fate of the aircraft.
I think that was perhaps the late '80's.

[treadigraph]

There was a Harrier from Dunsfold in which an incapacitated pilot was lost in the late 80s/early 90s - continued out in to the Atlantic shadowed by several other fighters. It wasn't shot down though, crashed after fuel exhaustion.

Similar to the Payne Stewart Learjet (and Tom Lampitt in a UK Beech 200 many years ago).

[BEXIL160]

Can't remember the date exactly, but the Harrier was on a test flight out of Dunsfold.

A/c climbed to 2000ft on a westerly hdg, conatcted Farnborough for climb. Duly arranged by Farnborough controller with LTMA CSC and the (then) HURN CSC.

A/c then climbed to FL330 (?) rapidly, still HDG west. Nothing more heard from pilot, a/c continued westerly track. D&D alerted.

An hour or so later a USAF C5 Galaxy was vectored alongside the Harrier and reported that "there was no-one in the cockpit". They videoed the Harrier continuing west, with seat, a broken canopy and no pilot. It eventually ran out of fuel an crashed in the Atlantic.

Several days later unfortunate pilot's body was found on Salisbury Plain somewhere

As I recall the seat had fired the drogue through the canopy for some reason with fatal results. There was some speculation about a loose article ( red light?) and the pilot adjusting the seat height.

Others will know more, but that's as I recall it.

Bestv rgds
BEX

[teeteringhead]

I recall a story in Germany in the 1970s that may have started the legend, and certainly predates the Dunsfold incident. There was a tale (inevitably "before you were here") of a Harrier that had continued flying after the pilot had opted for a Martin Baker letdown.

Continued flying east towards the (then) baddies....... Lightning Battle Flight from Gutersloh were scrambled ....... but the jet crashed of its own accord before the shootdown was needed.

Story as above was current at Gutersloh in the late 70s, but don't know if any more truth in it....

[Kolibear]

There was also a case of a Polish(?) pilot banging out of a Mig, which then carried on to crash in Belguim, with loss of life.

[PT6ER]

There is (and I sit to be corrected) an F105 in the USAF museum in Ohio from which the pilot ejected after some problems, the airplane righted itself and continued on to pancake into a field. It was subsequently refurbed and put back into service.

All typos and memory lapses are age induced and nothing to do with the blood in my alchohol stream ;)

[brickhistory]

I thank everyone for chiming in. Looks like what I heard of was a "cludged" together version of several stories.

Cheers,
Brick

[treadigraph]

PT6ER, reminds me of a tale in Flying about US Doctor who breathed in unhealthy amounts of CO2 in his PA-24 one night and passed out... the aircraft on autopilot and well trimmed overshot its destination and ran out of fuel...

The Good Doctor came to with a stonking headache and found himself sitting in the aircraft which had made a perfect wheels up landing in a snow covered field. So far as I can remember damage was light and the aircraft flew again.

[Archimedes]

I'm with teeteringhead on this one. Story has been aired on the mil forum a couple of times in the last couple of years, and the consensus was that although a Harrier did head east after the pilot had abandoned its trusty steed, the Lightning Battle Flight didn't shoot it down; rather the aircraft crashed of its own accord.

[pulse1]

There was an article in one of the magazines by the pilot of the Gutersloh Harrier. He suffered a bird strike at low level and banged out. The blast from the seat cleared the debri from the front of the air intake and, with power restored and in perfect trim, the Harrier climbed away until it crashed in Holland.

[Archimedes]

Link (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=154569&perpage=15&highlight=Shoot%20AND%20down%20AND%20Lightning&pagenumber=3) to Military forum discussion.

[jimgriff]

Here is the full story as told by the pilot.......

Ejection from a Harrier

by

Air Commodore Peter Taylor AFC

At about midday on May 4,1972, I ejected from Harrier GR1 XV794 in northern Germany. I was not hurt and, on the face of it, that could have been the whole story. Except that it wasn't. There was a bit more to it than that, and as this month's Today's Pilot features an article on ejection seats, Editor Dave Unwin thought you might like to read the whole story.

Casting my mind back to the early 1970s, the Harrier had only recently been introduced into the RAF. In 1971, the Wildenrath Wing in RAF Germany had been formed with 3, 4 and 20 Squadrons and I was posted to 4 Squadron as a Flight Commander. The early Harrier was a tremendous aeroplane, albeit a bit of a handful. I think most of us had great respect for her and simply couldn't get airborne often enough. However, a combina_tion of a novel aircraft, demanding operational flying, and a general lack of experience resulted in occasional accidents and incidents. We had our share at Wildenrath, and the Station Commander, Gp Capt George Black, would 'encourage' us to the effect that while we could and should press on operationally, we should do so with care!

Denmark, for a ten-day exchange visit On the morning of May 4,1 was tasked to lead a four-ship attack mission on several targets in the Flensburg area of Northern Germany. The formation was also to be attacked by two other Squadron Harriers which were acting as enemy defensive fighters armed with simulated air-to-air missiles and guns. The planning and briefing for this type of sortie was lengthy and very thorough. I remember filling at least two blackboards with administrative and operational detail.

At the appointed hour, six aircraft were allocated to us and the four attack pilots and their two defensive counterparts gathered for the brief_ing. This lasted about an hour. However, as the briefing progressed, kept getting messages that first one aircraft, then another, then another had all become unserviceable. In the end, there was just one available:

mine! There was no alternative but to go on the sortie by myself, converting the profile to a solo attack/ recce mis_sion. So much for planning!

At about midday, I got airborne in XV 794, turned south and headed for my first target, flying at 420 knots and 250ft AGL. All went well until I was preparing to attack my second target. I had just looked into the cockpit to re-arrange my maps, when looking up I saw a formation of three large (they have got much larger over the years!) birds flying straight at me. Instinctively, I pushed forward. I missed two of the birds, but the third went straight into the intake.

There followed an almighty bang, fol_lowed by some rather worrying mechanical noises from the normally robust Pegasus 100 engine. Clearly, it did not like what was going on. I noticed that the RPM was just below idle, the JPT in the middle of its range, height 200ft and speed about 400 knots, although rapidly declining.

Generally, I was in open country, which was fairly flat with a few houses in my path. I opened and shut the throttle, but nothing much seemed to happen. I broadcast a quick 'MAYDAY' but since I was quite low, I had no great expectation that anyone would hear me. Since I had made up my mind that the engine had suffered what sound_ed like catastrophic damage, I turned my mind to what to do next. (In reali_ty, I said to myself: "I'd better jump out quite soon or I'm going in with the aeroplane!") Then, exactly as you read it in books and newspapers, I saw that I was still close re to houses, and steered the aircraft away from them towards open ground as best I could. Time was now getting short, and as I reached open ground, I saw a small hill ahead with trees at the summit. I pointed the aircraft at the hill, took one last look at the height and speed (100ft and 200 knots respectively) trimmed the aircraft straight and level, tightened my straps, and pulled the handle.

I recall everything working perfectly in my Martin-Baker Mk9 seat. I was quickly in my parachute and heading for a field full of cows. Also in the field were some quite large concrete blocks, and remembering a parachuting tech_nique I had learned some 17 years pre_viously, I steered myself away from the blocks, and executed a hard, but per_fectly serviceable, 'side-right' landing.

The whole event had taken less than 60 seconds.

To my astonishment, I saw the air_craft continuing to fly beautifully in a slight climb away from me to the north. I cannot tell you the feelings I had as I watched what now seemed to be a perfectly serviceable aircraft leaving the scene of my ejection. Indeed, the aircraft eventually flew into cloud at about 7,000ft and disap_peared from sight.

Except for the cows, I was now com_pletely alone in a field in Northern Germany with no means of communi_cation, a used parachute, the remains of an ejection seat and no method of transport. I had also forgotten in the heat of the moment that on ejection, a radio signal was initiated on the emergency broadcast frequency, so that the emergency services were becoming aware that there was an air_craft in distress.

I gathered myself together and began to walk across fields until I could find a road. After about 20 minutes, I found a road, absolutely deserted, and eventually came upon a farm. My German wasn't too good at the best of times, and my attempts to explain to the farmer's wife what had happened to me took some time. Eventually, and mainly through a com_bination of sign language and the sight of my parachute, I managed to explain my predicament and persuade her to let me use her telephone to contact the Squadron at Skrydstrup. The resulting conversation with 4 Sqdn Ops, about an hour after my ejection was surreal.

The phone was answered by Flying Officer Andy Bloxam. The conversation went something like this:

"4 Sqn Ops, Fg Off Bloxham speaking." "Hello Andy, Pete Taylor here." "Oh! OK, aren't you still airborne? Anyway, I'll get Roger Austin." That was it. No questions, no 'How are you?', 'What's happened to the aircraft?', or 'Where are you?'. Andy just put the phone down and took about five minutes to find Roger. After that, things moved fast. Roger Austin established what had hap_pened and the rescue process was put into action. Apparently XV794 had climbed to over 20,000ft and contin_ued to broadcast on the emergency frequency. Because the aircraft was close to a Warsaw Pact border, a German F-104 was sent to intercept and was, I understand, mildly sur_prised to find a Harrier flying very nicely, but with no-one on board. Shortly after that, the aircraft ran out of fuel and glided into Southern Denmark, where it crashed in an open field, narrowly missing a farmhouse. The Harrier had stayed airborne for 38 minutes after my ejection. Apparently, the reason for XV794's 38-minute solo trip was that the bird which I hit had spread itself quite thin_ly across the engine's compressor. The flames and gases from the Martin-Baker ejection seat dislodged the bird as I left the aircraft. The engine heaved a sigh of relief, drew a deep breath and started working normally again. As it happens, I had trimmed the aircraft rather well and XV794 flew until she ran out of fuel! For my part, having given Roger an idea of where I was, the German Air Force sent an S-65 helicopter to pick me up. However, as I was apparently difficult to find, I had to use my SARBE beacon and flares to direct the S-65 to me. As far as I know, I was at that time the only person to have used my SARBE beacon on land, and the company very kindly presented me with a silver pot.

At Skrydstrup I met up with the rest of the squadron, was given a brief, but thorough, examination by a lady doctor, and went back to the Officers Mess. Life was never dull at Wildenrath in those days. I have a SARBE silver mug, membership of the Caterpillar and Martin-Baker clubs, an ejection seat handle and my log book to prove it all

[Maude Charlee]

Could there not also be some confusion with the accidental shootdown of a Jaguar by a Phantom, early 80's I think?

[Noah Zark.]

With reference to the Dunsfold Harrier, if I recall it was concluded that because the a/c was climbing out to the west, the pilot would have had the full glare of the sun in his eyes, and it was said that he would have motored his seat downwards to be in the shadow afforded by the instrument panel until he levelled out/altered course.
Again, if memory serves me correctly, it was possible somehow to take the seat down too low, resulting in some kind of obstruction snagging a cable on the lower part of the seat, the cable's function being to release the drogue. This apparently happened and extracted the pilot.

[Pronto]

Don't know of a Phantom shooting down a Jag in the early 80s, but there was the famous Tornado shootdown of a Jag just as the Falklands War started.

[Rocket2]

Somewhat off thread, but didn't an abandoned Hunter do a 180 off Hartland Point & fly into some houses near Ilfracombe back in the 80's (no loss of life if my memory serves me)?

[jimgriff]

Re Dunsfold Harrier.

It is generally though (but not proven) that the trailing cockpit light in the harrier might have/ could have snagged on the manual overide handle as the seat was lowered which would have fired the drogue rocket and subsequently taken the main chute and pilot with it.
Photographic evidence seems to shows the seat (sans pilot) still in the a/c.

[Gainesy]

Pronto, Nope, it was definitely a Phantom that splashed the Jag.

[BeauMan]

Gainesy - I stand to be corrected, but I was always under the impression that it was t'other way round, Jag got a Phantom.

I know that sounds very odd, but the reason why it sticks in my mind is that as a young Air Cadet, I spent a week at Laarbruch in August 85, and during that week we were shown round a 2 Sqn Jag by a pilot who seemed to us young wannabes to be rather reticent. When we enquired elsewhere as to why he'd been a bit of a mardy so-and-so, we were told that it was indeed him who'd pressed the tit and splashed the Phantom, hence his present bad boys assignment showing Air Cadets around pending his formal interview without coffee... :ouch:

[spekesoftly]

Have a look at THIS (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=124675&perpage=15&highlight=kicked&pagenumber=3) thread.

On about page 3, Impiger relates a tale headed 'Jag Splash'.

[sailor]

The Pilot was Taylor Scott (RIP). Previous mentions of seat movement I believe are assumed to be correct cause of pilot's uncommanded departure. Nice guy who I knew well in 892 Sqn who was part of public display aerobatic team on first Frontline tour. No slouch, who did not deserve that sort of early demise.

[BossEyed]

Rocket2 Unless there were two very similar ones, I think that the incident you mention was this one (http://www.tintagelweb.co.uk/Tintagel%20Plane%20Crash.htm) at Tintagel in 1979.

[teeteringhead]

And wasn't there another Hunter abandonment in the Irish sea where the jet nearly flew itself to Dublin??

[Rocket2]

Boss - yes your quite right - apologise for increasing senility:uhoh: R2

[jumpseater]

I believe the Phantom was 19sqdn's XV422 subsequently named 'Jaguar Killer'....

[RileyDove]

The Jaguar was a GR.1 XX963 which was shot down on the 25th of May 1982 by a Phantom FG.1 of 92 Squadron. There was a breakdown of procedure which allowed the Sidewinder launch.

Regards the Harrier GR.5 incident - there was never a conclusion reached as to the exact reason for the accident. There were modifications carried out to the seat prior to service introduction.

[27mm]

Sorry to be boring, but corrections are in order: XV422 was a 92Sqn FGR2; as well as having a Jag silhouette on her ramp, she also had a Jindi (claimed on MPC).

[jumpseater]

XV422
I got my info from a web site selling decals for model aircraft. A set has been issued that indicates XV422 being a 19sqdn a/c in Barley Grey with the words Jag Killer. I have tried to find pics of it in this condition but all the Barley Grey shots dont appear to have any indication of its 'history'. I think it was on 19 for some time hence the confusion re the sqdn on the decal's site. I would have thought that the a/c would have been in grey/greem camo at the time. So any pics of it 27?
rgds js

[27mm]

Hi Jumpseater,

Seem to recall that 19 & 92 did indeed rotate aircraft on the odd occasion as they came out of deep servicing; however, at the time of the unfortunate shoot-down, XV422 was in Barley Grey. The wing F4s started off in grey/green, but during the early 80s more of the Barley Grey jobs started to appear. Sorry, unable to help with pics at the moment, but will search around for some.

[27mm]

Jumpseater,

I owe you an apology - XV422 was indeed grey/green at the time of the shootdown incident

[ORAC]

F4 nav was Alistair Inverarity, can't remember the pilot's name. Went to see the Jag mates with a barrel of beer to apologise, Stn Cdr threw them off the station. No sense of humour some people......

[LowNSlow]

I take it from ORAC's comment that the Jag driver survived the incident?

[teeteringhead]

I take it that the Jag driver survived the incident? ... certainly did via a Martin-Baker letdown.

[27mm]

F4 driver was Roy Lawrence, jag mate believed to be Steve Griggs. It was strangely difficult to get any fighter affil with the Bruggen wing for yonks afterwards.....

[diginagain]

Nearly a case of revenge-by-proxy. Air to ground shoot from a Scout in FI, properly NOTAMed, range clear, comms with local radar unit etc. Aircrewman letting rip with a GPMG, firing in bursts, good drills - just fired off a burst when a large, grey fast thing passed between muzzle and target.

[Gainesy]

Yes it was Steve Griggs; he banged out of another Jag later that year.

[ShyTorque]

As one well intentioned layman once asked: "Of course this was the beginning of that well known RAF phrase - I'll be b8888ed if I'll fly Jags - wasn't it?" :confused:

Er, no, not exactly...... :E

[spekesoftly]

Yes it was Steve Griggs; he banged out of another Jag later that year.

Strewth!! - so who shot him down on that occassion? ;)

[LowObservable]

PT6ER
The USAF Museum aircraft is an F-106A Delta Dart. It had a problem somewhere out there (North Dakota IIRC) and the pilot ejected safely. Without the pilot and seat it stabilized nose-high and pancaked gently into a snow-covered field.
When the recovery crew arrived the engine was still running. As the heat from the engine melted the snow, the jet would lurch forward across the field until it hit fresh snow, which would stop it. When that snow melted... Finally, a brave (foolhardy?) guy jumped on the wing, straddled the fuselage and crawled forward to the cockpit to shut off the J75. The aircraft was repaired.

[normally right blank]

Picture scanned from an old "Aircraft Illustrated" here (see the second one, as I "tweaked" my scanner):
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=23729

[Lon More]

Kolibear
It was an E. German MIG, if I remember correctly. I was on duty at Maastricht UAC and the first we knew about it was when the Lippe Radar guys started to get very excited.
A hot scramble from Soesteberg followed and we tracked the Mig through Dutch Airspace, being careful to keep our traffic well out of it's way as it proceeded from RKN to NIK.
Just after crossing into Belgium it ran out of fuel and crashed killing i believe one person on the ground.

[Akrotiri bad boy]

I was on "Q" at Wildenrath at the time of the E German MIG thing, I think it collided with a Belgique farmer in the end. Too much Appelkorn has been consumed to be absolutely certain but I think we also launched for that one. There was nothing quite like a "No Duff" Battle Flight launch for sorting out any colonic problems that one might be suffering from.

Around about the same time there was an eastbound infringement of the no fly zone when that loon Matthias Rust took his Cessna to Red Square.

[diginagain]

Didn't Herr Rust launch southbound from Sweden?