New Pension Scheme

[TAC2]

Has anyone any details of when the announcement of the new pension will be available. I thought that we would have been given the information by now. Were we not promised an individual assessment showing the 'benefits' or not of the new scheme.

[Muff Coupling]

The FPS 2005 will be available on or around the 06 Apr 2006. It is here now..in effect, as all those joining the services from that date will be on that scheme and has therefore been enacted by parliament. All the details are on the MOD web under JSP 764 or 794..I believe the former is the one. There are 4 Parts to the doc and gives you all the rules, formula's etc and detail you need to make a reasonable calculation.

All those on FPS 1975 will have the option to transfer between Sept 05 and Apr 06. You will have to decide which is best for you. Your admin staff can only advise you and should print out forecasts for both schemes.

Be very careful..you will only benefit from the 05 scheme IF you can be guaranteed service until age 55. Any departure before then, you will end up with an EDP and a preserved pension at 60 or dependant upon time served..not a lot!

If you are a long time server and looking at film star pensions on the 75 scheme..suggest a word with or join the Armed Forces Pension Society.

OOoops..I lied slightly..preserved pension should read 65!! ..not 60:O

In fact all those who have joined from this April are on AFPS 05..just to confirm that everyone else must decide by Apr 06.

TAC 2 - you can make a quick calculation on the 05 scheme very simply.

Assume you have given 25 years service. Take the best 365 days wages from last 3 years service, say 30K x 25 / 1/70 = £10,714.

If you serve to 55 with 35 years service; take 50% of best 365 days in last 3 years = your index linked pension. 3 x the total is your tax free lump sum.

EDP calculation is based upon 18/40; 50% of 50% preserved pension with 3 time sthat as a lump sum, until 55 when it goes to 75% and then full pension at 65.

[cazatou]

Now I remember when the Miltary Salary was introduced - before we had free food and lodging and were paid peanuts.

Within an hour of the signal arriving another arrived stating that the new arrangments were in abeyance for WRAF Officers and RAF Officers below FLT LT.

The reason? The new deal resulted in a massive pay CUT!!

[Climebear]

MC

Be very careful..you will only benefit from the 05 scheme IF you can be guaranteed service until age 55.

Beware generalizations, while this may well be the case for the majority some other could benefit. Especially those who joined before 18 (airmen (a term that includes NCA)) or 21 (officers) as service will be counted from the say you start rather than a birthday. In addition, personnel who are paid at a higher rate than the representative salary used for AFPS75 could benefit. So if you are a FS/MACR on the higher pay band who joined when you were 16 there could be a benefit.

Finally, the new scheme offers enhanced benefits for your surviving partner (most wives survive their husbands). Whether you take this into account or not depends on if you care what happens to them when you shuffle of this mortal world.


Good advice on consulting the Armed Forces Pension Society. We had a very interesting talk by the retired General that heads it which highlighted the points above. If anyone is considering this they should seek proper financial advice (which is something that the Service is not legally allowed to provide).

[Pontius Navigator]

I was entreated to join the AFPS but they illustrated the 'massive' loss served by a Brigadier because of the date he left the service and the huge pay rise that followed.

I wrote and said that I had little sympathy with the Brigadier who was still getting a massive pension compared with mine. I also benefited, with a birthday in April, from having my pension based on the latest pay deal.

I got a very nice letter back from the General agreeing with my points and conceding that it was not a one size suits all deal. He agreed that the 'new deal' would disadvantage everyone as the pension would be based on x/12ths of last years pay and y/12ths of this years where x+y=12 and not on the whole of this years pay.

I was still caught in the end however as I retired in October so my next pension rise was factored on percentage increase for that year.

You can't win.

[Muff Coupling]

Climebear,

Not a generalisation about 55 I'm afraid.

To gain the optimum benefit from AFPS 05 scheme from Apr 2005, you still need to serve to 55 ("normal retirement age")... i.e. those that have joined since Apr this year! You can no longer retire on a pension below the age of 37. Hence EDP and income (as opposed to pension from 18/40).

Individuals who elect to transfer from AFPS 75 will carry over some additional service eg complete years service from day of joining from 16 - 18 and 55 + to a max of 40 years = 1.6667% increase in PP. There may well be some real crusty's on life support machines who qual.

PA Spine / PES (A) qual persons will benefit (enhanced daily pay with IDD, incorporating flying pay at the time of transfer to the spine = film star annual wage, therefore 50% calculated for IP) providing they; time qualify for PA /PES (A) and are 55 or over.

55 is still the gotcha even on cross over. Hence my amber caption!

If you are; 40 + with 18 years service and considering an alternative career that will offer a second pension scheme and comfortable wages (e.g. airlines). It may be worth looking at transfer to AFPS 05, taking EDP with lump sum, knowing you have a tax free savings scheme in place, with lump sums at 55 and PP at 65. EDP is after a "retention pull through" (as quoted in the JSP 764).

The in service death and child benefits et al, are self funding from the reductions in PP until 65, incremental EDP etc. The AFPS 2005 is to be cost neutral.
If you cannot guarantee to hit the big 55/35, take a look at calculating benefits under AFPS 75, taking any Resettlement / Life commutations, Terminal grant and buying additional death benefit (as recommended by the AFPS on thier visit to our station) if you want to provide for the ball and chain :E

But once again I recommend the AFPS.

[Oggin Aviator]

So what happens to an RN Officer on the FTC (Full Term Commission) who, if a Lt Cdr or below, has to retire at age 50?

[Bigtop]

Had a very interesting brief on the new scheme and in the margins afterwards when asked about the pro's and cons go the reply
"Well I won't be changing over. The benefits of enhanced Death In service et al comes from a reduction elsewhere. The review and changes are cost neutral and the sting comes from a reduction in real terms of pension payments!"

The personal examples (if we ever get them) may be revealing - or more likely concealing!!

Oggin,

It\'s like the A25 song - the landings piss poor and you can\'t swim!

[Muff Coupling]

Oggin..have a good look at your benefits under both schemes first. But the problem we have found, is that every individual will end up with slightly different outcomes. Date of join, age, length of service, final salary etc etc, all need to be calculated.

Without knowing any more detail and if you (the party example stated) have to go at 50..remaining on the AFPS 75 may prove more beneficial.

[Biggus]

There is a lot of rubbish being talked about concerning the new pension scheme, but here are a few points to consider and maybe educate some.

My understanding is that those people with the option to change to the new scheme will be receiving some paperwork in July, including I believe a personal assessment, with 3 months to come to a decision.

Do not forget that the new scheme was not designed for the benefit of people already serving, rather for new entrants off the high street. Having said that, that does not mean that some people serving, though not all, will not benefit from joining AFPS 05. I remember when the PA spine was introduced people saying "... the MOD will never change our terms of service for the better...... it must be all about saving money..... there must be a catch somewhere.....you are bound to be better off staying Spec Aircrew...etc". However, the PA deal was better, and I am very happy on it thank you!!

Back to AFPS 05. There is a very good schematic diagram of the new and old schemes (a picture paints a thousand words..) in the March 2005 edition of AMPlify, page 30. Yes, the benefits of the new scheme increase the longer you serve, and reach a maximum if you stay in until 55, but that is not to say it is a disaster if you leave earlier than then. As Muff Coupling says all the information is available on a series of MOD web pages. The calculations to work out your own situation are simple enough, but somewhat boring.

Taking myself as an example, PA spine aircrew. Say I left the RAF at 50. Lets examine my pension payments under the new and old schemes (yes I had to make some assumptions about pay rises in the next few years - I AM NOT 50 YET!!)

AFPS 75

Pension on retirement £22,100 Gratuity £66,300

Pension payments 50-55 5 years at £22,100 (no RPI)

Pension payments 55-65 10 years at £22,100 (RPI up lift and linked)


Total payments 50-65 £66,300 + £110,500 + £221,000 + RPI addition = £397,800 + RPI component



AFPS 05

"Pension" on retirement £26,200 Gratuity £78,600

EDP payments 50-55 5 years at £17,500 (66.7% of £26,200 no RPI)

EDP payments 55-65 10 years at £19,600 (75% of £26,200 RPI uplift and linked) + at 65 second tax free lump sum £78,600 plus RPI


Total payments 50-65 £78,600 + £87,500 + £196,000 + £78,600 = £440,700 + RPI component.

I have not gone into the RPI side of things, but it would appear that by age 65 I am some £40,000 better off under AFPS 05. And every year I live past 65 I am a further £4,000 (+ RPI) a year better off. True, I might not live to 65. It is also true that I do not get as much money up front with AFPS 05 as I do with AFPS 75, but am I planning on retiring at 55 or working on to 65? If I die before my wife 60% of £26,200 is better for her than 50% of £22,100.

So there are a lot of variables to consider. When I expect to leave the RAF, will I carry on working, do I need more money early on in retirement, how good is my health, does my wife have a pension, etc, etc..... These are my particular circumstances, not yours.

I guess my point is that there is a lot more to it than, .."the new scheme is no good unless you stay in until you are 55..." Do your own sums, take advice where you can, but form the informed, and then make your own decisions, hopefully wisely.

[16 blades]

I asked this question in a previous pensions thread - I don't think a comprehensive answer was forthcoming.

From what I currently understand, EDPs from 05 replace the IP from 75. In order to qualify for EDPs you have to serve to a minimum age 40. Our current TOS do not allow us to serve beyond 38, unless assimilated onto PAS.

This APPEARS to mean that as things stand, those who have yet to reach their 38/16 point, who transfer to 05, and do not get assimilated, will get NOTHING AT ALL - at least until age 65 when full pension becomes payable. Comparing this with 75 which will give a pension of approx £11k at OF2 level, I cannot see how 05 could possibly be a good deal for anyone under 40.

Am I completely wrong about this? Or are changes in our TOS forthcoming to move 38/16 to 40/18?

16B

[LFFC]

Biggus,

Thanks for the info. Now, let me see if I've got this right - please correct if I'm wrong. I'll use current figures and only look at pilots, but I think that similar principles apply to WSOs, Rear Crew and NCO pilots:

A Specialist Aircrew Flt Lt (if there are still any) retiring at age 55 on the top pay band would receive £24000 a year under the old pension system or £24750 under the new pension system.

A Sqn Ldr (not in the Professional Aviator Pay Spine) retiring at age 55 on the top pay band would receive £24000 a year under the old pension system or £24750 under the new pension system.

A Wg Cdr retiring at age 55 on the top pay band would receive £31100 a year under the old pension system or £32000 under the new pension system.

However, a Flt Lt in the Professional Aviator Pay Spine would receive £33600 a year if he/she joined the new pension system and retired at age 55!

Is this too good to be true? Are you sure that aircrew in the Professional Aviator Pay Spine will be invited to join the new pension scheme when the paperwork is passed around next month?

If so, apart from personal satisfaction, what incentive will there be for aircrew to work hard and get promoted? I know that they would earn more whilst they are serving in a higher rank, but unless they get promoted to Gp Capt they wouldn't ever match the pension they would get if they retired in the PA Spine! Would all the extra stress, paperwork and ground appointments be worth it?

Just what are the odds of reaching Gp Capt these days anyway?

[Specaircrew]

So my 32 years of bouncing between the cockpit and the bar with no time to do OCC/ISS/C Exam or secondary duties might finally bear fruit :-)

[Biggus]

LFFC

First of all, as PA myself, I have only really looked at my own situation. A quick look at some of the information I have has provided the following however:

AFPS 75 "...... an index linked pension worth 48.5% of representative pay......"


AFPS 05 ".... a pension worth 50% of final salary after 35 years......"

Therefore aircrew Sqn Ldrs, Wg Cdrs etc on AFPS 05 will recieve 50% of their final salary (which INCLUDES FLYING PAY!!) if they retire at 55. While I am not fully aware of Wg Cdrs pay rates I am sure a senior aircrew one earns more than £64,000 when you include flying pay (I have just checked, £64,000 is the basic pay - having trouble finding current Wg Cdr flying pay, but it was over £10,000 in 2003).

But yes, the pension at the top of the PA spine (pilots only get there) is a bloody good deal!! As for incentives for working hard, promotion, etc. First of I think all retention on the PA spine is likely to become very rare, and one will have to be hard working and well above average to achieve it. You can't just drift along and expect to make PA. Secondly a career animal is just that, and will consider the rewards worth going for without being over concerned about pension rates.



Note: The PA pilot pension may be bloody good, but the best pension deal in the country is the one that MPs have - there is a surprise!!

[Lockstock]

Therefore aircrew Sqn Ldrs, Wg Cdrs etc on AFPS 05 will recieve 50% of their final salary (which INCLUDES FLYING PAY!!) if they retire at 55. .

Not the way I see it, unless I'm mistaken. '05 pension figures quote that the final pension ''... includes X factor, but excludes allowances or specialist pay''.

Good deal therefore for PA folk on the new scheme who stay till 55 and have pension based on ALL their pay!

[Biggus]

Lockstock and Just this once....

It would appear that you are both correct, in that 'aditional pay', e.g flying pay, is indeed not pensionable under AFPS 05. Sorry if I caused any confusion.

I posted my reply to LFFC early this morning, when I was in a rush to get to work. The quotes I gave were from the only document I had immediately to hand, and are taken straight from the source (the articule in AMPlify). They are correct quotes. However, the phrase used in the MOD pensions website refers to '.. pension based on final pensionable salary (i.e excluding additional pay)...' for AFPS 05. That one word pensionable making all the difference. Indeed one of the questions in the Q & A portion directly asks about additional pay, and the reply makes it clear it is not pensionable. So I was wrong in my statement, apologies.

I am sorry if I have caused confusion. I am PA spine myself, and have only looked at AFPS 05 from a personal view, as indeed I suspect most people have/would, rather than an overall one. If that makes me sound 'jack' I'm afraid I haven't got enough spare time to become a pension expert for everyone. Hopefully my point, that people need to look at the new pension based on their own individual circumstances, and it is not necessarily bad news for all, is still valid!

LFFC

I am on a multi engined fleet with a large range of ranks within the crew, maybe even the same fleet as yourself, and recognise most of the extremes you mention. Unfortunately the RAF has always had disparities of pay within the same aircraft, which does not of course make it right. My pay and pension conditions are better than some, maybe most, of the people I fly with, but not as good as all. There are inequalities within the PA system, e.g maximum levels various trades can reach on the spine, but I have to live with what is on offer. While it may again sound 'jack', I did not create this situation, but given the option of selecting better terms of service (e.g the switch from Spec Aircrew to PA, the possibilty of an improved pension scheme) I defy anyone not to go for what is best for them. Indeed I would encourage anyone to do so. Encouraging people to select the best pension option for themselves was the reason I started writing on this thread in the first place!

[Ginseng]

Nice to see all you guys waking up to the complex, and sometimes unattractive, reality surrounding the new pension scheme offer. Personally, I think the whole pay. additional pay, allownaces and pension system is rapidly turning into a dog's breakfast. Is it good for unit cohesion? Definitely not, but neither was the first split of flying pay rates, which started the rot. However, for those who shed doubt, there is no reason to believe that current PA wil not recieve the full pension offer.

Ginseng

[LFFC]

Biggus,

I think you got Just This Once and I mixed up; I'm not in the multi-engine fleet. But thanks for taking the time to answer, I'm not surprised that you made a mistake this morning - the whole issue is quite unclear at the moment and I'm struggling to understand it as well.


Lockstock,

Yes, that's the way that I see things too.


Just This Once...,

I don't think that there are any proposed changes to the treatment of flying pay for Career Spine aircrew with regard to pensions. However, as PA Spine pay does not include any "allowances or specialist pay", I'm assured that all of it will count towards pensionable final salary.


Specaircrew,

Yes, it certainly does look like you've hit the jackpot - personally, I think you deserve it. But I wonder how all the Career Stream aircrew, who may have worked even harder than you to fit in all that OCC/ISS/C Exam stuff, will feel if they don't get a chance to move to the PA spine too? I feel very sorry for them and won't expect too much sympathy (or much else) from them in the future - but I'm sure that senior officers will rise above that sort of thing!


Ginseng,

I agree with you - it certainly looks like Mr C*ck-up has paid us another visit! I guess this is yet another example of two "initiatives" coming together to produce a management nightmare!

[Muff Coupling]

Biggus and Co....just to add fuel to the debate.

I hear that the Army have already been through the hoops on the issue of PA Spine sic Flying pay et al.

I hear that they have a few pilots who have gone onto PES (A) (RN / RAF equiv of PA Spine). Some have reached or will reach top of the spine when AFPS 05 scheme kicks in. If the JSP calculations are correct, they can walk with a Gp Capt equiv pension as Majors (Sqn Ldr)! EG - Daily rate + Enhanced rate of Flying Pay on transfer to PES (A) = same daily rate as Gp Capt on promotion in 1st year.

However, these guys/gals must have completed 5 years on PES (A) and retire at 55.

Understand that they have already asked the system..you only need to be on AFPS 1 day to qual for it and for full benefits. So retention scheme pfaff..age 55 in 08, top level on spine...resign faster than Labour can raise the higher tax bracket and jump ship! I suggest that once the bean stealers cotton onto this one..selection / transfer to spine will become a tadge harder

:(

[LFFC]

I've been thinking about how all this might impact the RAF - it seems to me that it will certainly change a few things! For a start, I would expect that all PA Spine aircrew will opt for the new pension scheme and go for the extra £10000 a year pension and £30000 gratuity.

I was under the impression that someone on the PA Spine who PVRs would revert to the Career Spine pension. Or is that only true for the old pension system? If that is the case, then we can expect those already on the PA Spine to stick around until their retirement at age 55 - so I hope we chose the right people. Whilst that will be really good for retention, it will make it really hard for anyone else to assimilate at age 38 - if it hasn't become difficult enough already.

Career Spine sqn ldrs will be watching this of course and realise that they now have little or no chance of returning to flying duties unless they get promoted. But in a shrinking RAF, they will have little chance of further promotion unless they are really good and got promoted to sqn ldr in their 20s or very early 30s.
So I expect that a lot of them will stay on the old pension system, pull the plug quite quickly and build a new career in the airlines. And who could blame them after all their hard work had been so blatantly overlooked?

But all of this will be just another of those "transitional challenges" that will disappear over the next decade. But then again...


Just This Once...,

I'd be interested to know if your colleague, who is obviously aged between 35 and 38, decides to accept promotion to sqn ldr or goes for the PA Spine as a flt lt. I hope that he realises that his chances of promotion to wg cdr are extremely small due to his age.

[zedder]

I hope you're not implying that the RAF is ageist LFFC? Well we all know the reality don't we!!

As you say, assimilation is becoming very hard at present. I know of someone who even went off and did the Aerosystems Course, but even with that under his belt, it's looking like the RAF won't be keeping him in.

It's all very short-sighted though in my opinion. I've never heard so many people talking about getting out as I have at the moment; most wouldn't want aaimilation even if they were offered it. I can see the wheels well and truly coming off the bus sometime in the next 5 years. TELIC dragging on and on seems to be proving the final straw for a lot of people. I wonder how many of them have been getting the "It's the RAF or me" ultimatum.

[Ginseng]

I have been examining your calculations earlier (8 Jun post at 21:33). I think you have an error. Your EDP calculation assumes that, after retiring at 50, your EDP would increase to 75% of preserved pension at age 55. It will not. All that will happen is that the RPI uplift will be applied (and backdated) to your 67% from that date. You still come out on top, but not by as much as you think. And, of course, if you don't live to collect the second lump sum at age 65, the balance of the sums reverses. Beware of false assumptions - this is more complex than you think!

Regards

Ginseng

Oggin,

As regards the Naval Officer (or anyone else) retiring before 55 - its an EDP for you until age 65, then preserved pension. There is no other compensation for your terms of service forcing you out.
The same applies to those retiring before 40, or with less than 18 years Reckonable Service. In your case it is - No EDP, preserved pension at 65.


Muff C

There you go with that "Group Captain Equivalent Pension" nonsense again! It is good, but not that good! No Group Captain I know retired on a pension calculated on his "on appointment" rate of pay. This is because, in AFPS 75, you only need serve 2 years in the rank to achieve the pension based on full Representative Pay for that rank (and it increases on a sliding scale between 0 and 2 years). Do you know anyone who was promoted and retired the next day? Spin and headlines can be very misleading, and are sometimes intended to be, to create a bigger impression than they deserve.

Ginseng

[LFFC]

Zedder,

It wouldn't matter if I did imply that the RAF is ageist - ageism is allowed in the armed forces - at the moment. Think about all the military Equal Opportunities questionnaires that you've filled in, and anything else on discrimination in the forces. There was never a section on age discrimination was there? That's because it doesn't apply to the military - yet!

We all know about the policy that a sqn ldr won't get selected to attend the Advanced Staff Course (ASC) once he/she is aged over 43 and you also have to have had a couple of good tours as a sqn ldr before you'll be selected. As promotion to wg cdr is pretty much dependant on being selected for the ASC, it's therefore very unlikely that you'll make it beyond sqn ldr if you haven't made that rank by the age of 36. So any offer of promotion to sqn ldr in your late 30s is condemning you to life in the Career Spine but not actually offering you a career in which you can advance. Take away the possibility of transfer to the Professional Aviator Spine and life will become pretty dull!


Just This Once...,

I think you're being a little negative, but I wouldn't disagree with you too much. I'd have said, "Promotion to sqn ldr much after age 32 is now regarded as retention negative - so beware".


Mind you, there is an easy way out of this mess. Give all Career Spine sqn ldrs automatic transfer to the Professional Aviator Spine after they reach age 44. That would be a bit like the old option to leave at age 44 if you hadn't been promoted to wg cdr by that age. Of course, that doesn't mean that they will get another flying tour (as some on the PAS have recently found out) but it would be retention positive.

[Stan Bydike]

LFFC Said

"Mind you, there is an easy way out of this mess. Give all Career Spine sqn ldrs automatic transfer to the Professional Aviator Spine after they reach age 44. That would be a bit like the old option to leave at age 44 if you hadn't been promoted to wg cdr by that age. Of course, that doesn't mean that they will get another flying tour (as some on the PAS have recently found out) but it would be retention positive."

The only trouble is that "Career" and "Professional Aircrew" are, from my observation of life in the RAF over the last thirty years, totally incompatable. PAS is for those who are good at their flying jobs and not those who have dicked everyone else trying to make Wg Cdr.

[Biggus]

Ginseng

http:/www.mod.uk/issues/pensions/new_afps/edps.htm describes the Early Departure Scheme on a question and answer basis. The answer to the question "What happens to the EDP at age 55?" is given as:

"The income stream will increase to 75% of the value of the individuals accrued pension entitlement and will then be adjusted to take account of the changes in the RPI since the point at which the EDP was originally taken and thereafter on an annual basis until age 65."

There are even specific examples in a table later in the same document, showing the figures for a Sgt, WO1, Major and Lt Col all retiring at their 40/18 point which all show the rise to 75% at 55.

I therefore believe my calculations to be correct. Reference your point about not living till 65, I made that very same point myself if you reread my 8 Jun 21:33 post. As you say, and I am fully aware of, it is a complex issueand everyone has to make their own assumptions and decisions based on their future plans and expectations!


LFFC

Reference the point you made about somebody on the PA Spine who PVRs. I don't know, I will go through my PA Spine file later, what happens when you PVR, but one point to note is that AFPS 05 is "....based on an individuals best 365 days pay during their last 3 years of service."

I don't see how they could change your pension scheme if you PVR as PA Spine, those rules were written long before AFPS 05 came along. They might make you revert to Spec Aircrew, as I said I have yet to check on that, but presumably if you were out within 2 years under AFPS 05 rules you would still get a pension based on a previous year on the PA Spine salary, i.e all your pay in that year as PA Spine counting as pensionable?? Any thoughts??

[Climebear]

As promotion to wg cdr is pretty much dependant on passing the ASC

Strange that most of the RAF students on the current ACSC are already wg cdrs and that there are more promotions to wg cdr each year than there are places on AST/HILAC then!

There is legislation emerging within Europe to prevent discrimination on the grounds of age. However, the UK identified this early, lobbied fellow armed forces and managed to get an exemption for the Armed Forces written into the legislation at drafting stage within Europe. It also managed to secure the continued Armed Forces' exemption from the employment provisions of disability discrimination legislation in Europe. Something that the Maragaret Hodge (http://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/margaret_hodge/barking) , aptly the MP for Barking, was trying (unsuccesfully) to get removed from UK legislation. You can see her point, I suppose, I mean the Royal Marines do have wheelchair ramps on the front of some of their boats!

These are real exemptions written into legislation. Therefore, they are not like the ones we thought we had in the 70s/80s when we (on legal advice) belived we were exempt becuase the Military Procurement had an exemption from European competition rules.

[P-T-Gamekeeper]

__________________________________________________

PAS is for those who are good at their flying jobs and not those
who have dicked everyone else trying to make Wg Cdr.
___________________________________________________


No longer true.

I was told by my posting officer that to be assimilated as PA, I had to demonstrate the same qualities to "The Board" as for promotion. He intimated that it was for those who did not quite make Sqn Ldr.

So, to get promoted, you have to do pointless secondary duties well.

To get PA, you have to do pointless secondary duties badly.

If you are a good pilot, get yourself all the flying ticks, and concentrate on your primary role, you might as well join BA now!

[Muff Coupling]

Ginseng..please read my post properly.

If a Gp Capt (Army full Col equiv) and Maj Army pilot on PES (A) (as Army pilot Lt Col's must revert back to CS) are both on AFPS 05...the PES (A) Maj at IDD level 35 will earn the same annual wage as a Gp Cpt in 1st year on apointment in that rank. By definition AFPS 05 IP is calculated on 50% of best / final 365 days salary in last 3 years service.

You have hit the nail though..the Army Maj can walk with a Gp Capt pension (calculated on wage in year 1 as above) once qual for AFPS 05 (1 day to qual) with 5 years on PES A from Apr 03. The Gp Capt currently on AFPS 75 has to do 2 years min in rank to get IPP at rep pay.

If he/she were to be on AFPS 05, he/she could be promoted to Gp Capt and retire 1 full year later at that wage, as the pension will be calculated on last 365 days salary of last 3 years service. So by a bu++ers muddle of 2 overlapping pension schemes, age, rank date, promotion date, retention scheme date, different service dates..my point is in fact correct.

Sometimes nonsense has a habit of becoming fact!

Indeed..I hear that the Army equiv of pay blunties initially said "nonsense..a Maj cannot get anywhere near a Col's pension"..er, ooops yes they can.....the green eyed monsters are out!!

[Ginseng]

Biggus,

Sorry, but I think you have been mislead by the description of an increase to 75% at age 55. What it means is that the percentage of preserved pension that you would receive as an EDP increases on a linear scale from age 40/18 years service, to age 55 (minus 1 day!), the age being your age on date of "early retirement". Therefore, if you retired aged 54 years and 364 days, you would receive ten years worth of 75% EDP ( but uplifted for inflation from first day in retirement), then full preserved pension at 65. Retire one day later (at age 55) and you receive your immediate full pension. It is an unlikely scenario, I know, but that distinction is there.

Muff C,

I have to say I see your point, and apologise. Perhaps I got confused with the widely mis-described "Group Captain Pension" used to sell the PA Spine deal when it was originally floated. Would you accept, however, that it is incredibly unlikely that a Wg Cdr/Lt Col would be promoted to Gp Capt/Col with one year or less to serve to age 55, so I still claim that to make comparison with "Group Captain on Appointment" pension rates is illusory.

As for the affect of PVR from AFPS05, this would of course mean "early" retirement, and hence payment only of the appropriate EDP until age 65. Whether PA/PES(A) would be held to complete the original 5 year committment from Apr 03 without further sanction, I do not yet know.

Regards

Ginseng



Added Later!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Biggus,

Dammit, I am going to have to apologise again! Alarm bells rang and I delved in to JSP 764 Part 2, where the answer stared out at me from Para 0209 on page 2-3. You are right, the initial EDP is increased to 75% of the preserved pension, and index-linked, from age 55. Glad to set the record straight. You have destroyed my credibility on this forum - Well Done! Perhaps I should shut up now.

Regards

Ginseng

[LFFC]

Stan Bydike,

I think you're generalising a bit much there, I know a lot of really good operators that have been promoted to sqn ldr and fallen into the age trap. Moreover, whilst I agree that there may be some aircrew that do all the good officer "ticks" and manage to get promoted quite quickly, they do tend to be quite sharp operators as well. I think what you are trying to say is that there is no substitute for experience - if so, I agree with you!


Biggus,

That's the problem with the PA Spine; it was all written with respect to the old pension plan. The only reference I can find regarding PVR from the PAS (AP 3393 Vol 2 Leaflet 1810) suggests that if you PVR, you will receive only the "Service Retired Pay paid on PVR that is specified annually by MOD". To me, that indicates an intention to penalise you for retiring early. However, I like your point about the new pension being based on the best year of the last 3 years of service - I can see some interesting disputes over the horizon.


Climebear,

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that candidates are boarded for the Advanced Staff Course (ASC) prior to being boarded for promotion. The results of the ASC board are then a major factor used in boarding for promotion to wg cdr. If people are excluded from the ASC because of their age, then surely it follows that it affects how they score on the promotion board too. So their promotion prospects must be adversely affected! Yes, I know that places on the ASC are in short supply - but that's not really relevant.

But as I said, I know that we are exempt from legislation on ageism - for now.

[Axial Flo]

Has anyone seen any figures (or tables as per AFPS 75) concerning the purchase of added years in AFPS 05? If I stay until 55 I will only have 32 years reckonable service rather than the 35 required to receive 50% of best year of last 3 years salary.

AFPS 05 appears to allow you a maximum of 40 years reckonable service. If you purchase added years to get to 40 years can you significantly boost the pension? If you can does it make financial sense to do so or could you get a better rate of return elsewhere?

Any answers out there? (other than get some time in sonny!)

Flo

[Ginseng]

Yes, you will be able to purchase added years over the remaining part of your service up to age 55. I believe though, in keeping with the current scheme, the maximum increase you can buy will be that required to bring you up to 35 years reckonable service at normal retirement age (provided this keeps you within Inland Revenue limits). I do not believe you would be able to contract to buy up to 40 years, since you could not guarantee to serve the extra time at the time of taking out the contract. The extra 5 years above normal retirement age must be attained by extra time actually served. That is my understanding (until someone proves me wrong again!). The reference for added years is JSP 764 Part 1 Chapter 5 (Paras 0501 to 0518).

Ginseng

[Scotch Bonnet]

Ginsing,

I believe Biggus is right, If "I" retire at 50 (on the PA spine)
having joined at 16 my EDP is based on 50% of preserved pension at 40 plus 10 times 1.66 (call it a total of 66% of preserved pension). At 55 my EDP is increased to 75% of my preserved pension plus RPI....At 65 I get my pension plus the "other lump sum"....Thoughts?

[Ginseng]

Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, YES

Please don't ask me to repeat my grovelling apology above. Once is enough!

Regards

Ginseng, the well known spelling mistake

[Ginseng]

For another significant factor to consider, ivolving redundancy term structures announced in parliament on 21 Jun, see the new thread "More Cuts Coming", started by JunglyAEO on 22 Jun.

Ginseng

[oldfella]

Seems to be a fair bit of confusion and obviously individual cases will differ significantly.

Any ideas on where there are tables showing comparisons, or is there someone out there with the knowledge, and willing, to turn some of these details into a simple spreadsheet?

[Ginseng]

Sorry, Mate. There ain't no such thing as a "simple spread sheet" for this one! Read your OTT pack very carefully. They start sending out on 18th July; it could take 2-3 months for all to arrive.

Regards

Ginseng

[vecvechookattack]

Most confusing thread.....there seems to be lots of variables to the AFPS. The one good thing about it all is that whether you go for the new pension or remain where you are, a pension of at or about £30k PA is bloomin fantastic....thank you Your Majesty.

[Ginseng]

Now I really am beginning to think that you are a Government plant. Or am I being paranoid?


Keep spinning. But beware. You may end up in knots.

Regards

Ginseng

[vecvechookattack]

Im sorry.....How much pension do you want? Whats wrong with £30 pa for goodness sake?

[Ginseng]

I assure you that my pension won't be anywhere near 30K, on either scheme. If yours will, then perhaps its not surprising that you are failing to see the point.

Regards

Ginseng

[vecvechookattack]

Well, get yrself promoted...keep yr nose clean and you never know...you may be onto a winner.

[oldfella]

As per reply from Ginseng, there is no simple way to understand this.

Tried http://www.mod.uk/issues/pensions/#2 and the last item is about the proposed changes. Still confused so will wait for the OTT package and hope that it is written for the customer rather than in admin speak, but not holding my breath.

[Fire 'n' Forget]

'sigh' is it me or is VVHA the english version of 'gangrene'. Keeps spouting and believing the government propaganda.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Could also be either Admin Guru or that other spleen Hyd3failure:yuk:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Ginseng]

Please don't discourage him though. I enjoy a challenge, even at this time of the morning!

Ginseng

[vecvechookattack]

I really dont understand what your beef is. Are you telling me that you are unhappy with the AFPS? Whats wrong with it? Many financial experts will tell you that the AFPS is one of the best around )(mainly as it is non-contributry).

If you don't like the AFPS then take a look at the pension schemes of other companies.

I'll quote from a recent interview....

"Many people have been left with a pensions shortfall because of recent problems in the pensions market, according to the Association of Consulting Actuaries (ACA).

ACA's recent survey suggests that nearly ninety per cent of all final salary pension schemes are in deficit, meaning that the total shortfall of these schemes has now risen to more than £130 billion.

Speaking to the BBC, ACA's chairman, Adrian Waddingham, said: "Lots of things have gone wrong for pensions schemes recently, including the stock market collapse and low interest rates.

"So British pension funds, many of them, most of them, have shortfalls."

Many other commentators have blamed the shortfalls on lower investment returns and longer life expectancy.

The survey found that it seems to be employers who have to bear most of the extra cost. Employees are now paying only 1.2 per cent more, while employers' contributions have increased by five per cent on average." So, there you have it. You either opt for a pension with BA, Squeasy Jet or any other airline. You can opt to work bor British waste of space or wastelands....OR you can sit with the AFPS, safe in the knowledge that providing there is a defence Budget then your Pension is safe and sound.

[Biggus]

vec......

First of all, the Armed Forces Pension Scheme is effectively contributory. Yes, you don't see the money coming out of your monthly pay packet, but the Armed Forces Pay Review Board take the value of the pension into account when determining pay. In theory at least, if our pension scheme was worse than it currently is our pay would be higher!! However, I doubt that would actually be the case in practice!!!

As to what people's beef is..... Well a large part of it is you!!! Nobody is saying that the AFPS, either old or new, is rubbish. What people are trying to do is pass on what knowledge they have, their sources of information etc, to enable the people who are eligible to make a sound decision as to whether or not to transfer to the new scheme. Most contributors to this thread are doing so in an attempt to actually help their fellow man.

By contrast your comments contain no detail, seem to be largely your opinion or quotes from headlines rather than being based on verifiable facts... and when your comments are queried and all else fails you seem to resort to 'I'm all right jack... life in the navy is rosey.... it's worse out in civy street' etc.

Your comments are of little help to anyone, and seem to be largely about flattering your own ego and 'hearing' the sound of your own voice. To many people this proves somewhat annoying, but perhaps that is the intended effect?

[vecvechookattack]

Of course Im attempting to flater my own ego. Why wouldn't I. Don't you? shall we turn this thread into a slanging match or get back to the subject?

[JessTheDog]

The 75 AFPS is good, but not as good as the Police or anywhere near the pension that the snout-in-trough MPs trouser.

The new scheme is (from my reading) disadvantageous to the majority of personnel who fulfil an 18-year engagement. There will be a small number of people better-off ie. those on 35 year engagements (warrant officers/squadron leaders) and above but since when did the command chain ever put the conditions of service of the multitude before the elite?

The consultation programme embarked on by MoD was a disgrace, as pointed out by the Commons Defence Committee, who raised the absurdity of each unit receiving perhaps 10 copies of the leaflet. Compare this to the lovely RAF History AP3003, of which there are more than enough copies for one each!

So - not good for most, better for a few.

[vecvechookattack]

Tee Hee...quality. If you think that the MP's pension and the police pension is better then........only one answer to that isn't there?


I think the RAF may have missed a trick with only getting 10 leaflets per unit. Down here in fairly land we got one each.

[JessTheDog]

I think the RAF may have missed a trick with only getting 10 leaflets per unit. Down here in fairly land we got one each.

It wasn't just the RAF, according to the HCDC report. When I can be bothered I will find a link or an extract, such as I posted a year or so ago.

[vecvechookattack]

Must be talking about different leaflets

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Not leaflets Vec old chap, in your case just b@@lcks:rolleyes:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Ginseng]

It wasn't a leaflet, but a full-sized A4 glossy brochure report. On the Stn on which I was serving at the time, I am only aware of one copy being sent to each Sqn Boss, for dissemination of the contents. As far as I could ascertain, most sat in the bottom of in-trays and may never have made it to the crewrooms. I was only aware of its importance because I had chanced on the whole review process while (legitimately!) surfing the intranet. The general view at the time, amongst the few I spoke to who had even heard of it was along the lines of "something for the future kids; it won't affect me". Touchingly naieve. No wonder the whole question of whether additional pay should become pensioned was kissed-off on the basis that "there is no significant appetite for additional pay to be pensioned". As far as I can recall, this conclusion was drawn on the basis of replies from about 50 people, almost none of whom were aircrew. But the system claims that you were consulted. Sad, isn't it?

Regards

Ginseng

[LFFC]

Yes Ginseng, it's very sad.

What's even worse is that the very senior wheels just let it happen - I still wonder if they understand what impact it will all have on the morale of their "middle management". But then again - what's new?

I have to admit that, for a time, I was quite excited by the prospect of AFPS 05 - I thought I'd won the jackpot. But then I saw the full horror of what happens if I elect to leave at any time before I'm 55!

.... and then I saw the new redundancy terms that I would automatically sign up to if I transfer to AFPS 05.

So the way I see it is:

If I join AFPS 05, I get a big increase in my pension when I retire at 55.

But if elect to leave even a couple of months before I'm 55, I loose 25% of my gratuity and 25% of my pension for 10 years. If I leave before I'm 50 I loose another 25% of my gratuity and 50% of my pension until I'm 55! But of course - it isn't really a pension is it - so that's OK then. [And another thought has just occured to me - As it's not a pension, I wonder how easily they can change the terms of the Early Departure Payment in the future?]

Mind you, if they choose to make me redundant, I loose on the redundancy payment as well!

I thought my decision about joining AFPS 05 would be easy - but now I'm not so sure. It appears to me that the overall impact of all of this is to make employment in the Armed Forces much less secure than it was.

[DP Harvey]

I might be behind the drag curve of this discussion, but here is the actual statement (copied from the Parliament website) made in the House of Commons on Tue 21 Jun:

quote:
Armed Forces (Redundancy)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr. Don Touhig): Current redundancy compensation terms for members of the regular armed forces have remained largely unchanged since the early 1970s and do not reflect changes to re-employment prospects or in wider Government policy for this area. Nor do they take account of the changes in benefit structure made under the new armed forces pension scheme. They have therefore been reviewed, working closely with the single services and I now wish to announce the outcome of that review.

The new terms are designed to compensate fairly those whose careers are prematurely shortened as a result of redundancy, and are to be used as part of any planned restructuring of the armed forces as announced by the Secretary of State for Defence from time to time. The Ministry of Defence has two schemes which provide normal early-leavers' benefits for the regular armed forces—one relating to the 1975 pension scheme and one to reflect the changes made to the value of mid-career benefits with the introduction of the new 2005 scheme. Despite the differences between these two schemes, the redundancy packages for each scheme will be broadly comparable.

21 Jun 2005 : Column 33WS



The new terms will continue to be made up of a one-off tax-free lump sum which, for those serving until or beyond mid-career, will be supplemented with an immediate pension paid under the armed forces pension scheme 1975 (AFPS 75) or income paid under the 2005 early departure scheme. The size of the lump sum and of the annual pension or income stream will, as now, vary according to length of service and pay. The 2005 terms will apply to all new entrants from 6 April 2005, but from 6 April 2006 for those who were in service on 5 April 2005 and who decide to transfer to the new pension scheme. The existing terms, as set out in AFPS 75, will remain unchanged until 31 March 2008 when the current drawdown in service manpower announced in July 2004 by the then Secretary of State is due to complete. They will then be replaced by new terms which, in particular, will defer the point at which the current very early immediate pension is paid. This can currently be paid from age 30 but in future only a lump sum will be paid at this very early age. To ease the transition, the replacement terms for AFPS 75 will be phased in over a five-year period from 1 April 2008 to 31 March 2013, after which the final terms will apply.

The new arrangements will provide the armed forces with cost-effective arrangements for managing any major drawdown in the level of service manpower and are expected to meet fully the manning needs of the armed forces. Although less valuable in a number of respects than the existing terms, they remain generous by wider standards, as befits the special demands of a career in the armed forces; they reflect changes in wider Government policy for public service schemes; and they are fair with respect to the relationship between level of compensation and length of service. Additional general information on the new arrangements is available on both the MOD's intranet and internet sites, while detail about the new terms will be made public when work on drafting the new rules has been completed.

I am today placing copies of the defence instructions and notices (DIN) on the new redundancy terms in the Library of the House. It is also being placed on the Ministry of Defence website at: [url]www.mod.uk/issues/pensions/

unquote

[Ginseng]

That is exactly why I set out on this crusade to make sure people were aware of the implications of what was coming, rather than being blinded by the headlines and dying of ignorance. If it's good for you then take it; but don't sell yourself short through lack of knowledge. For interest, see my calculation on the AFPS05 redundancy payments on the "More Cuts Coming" thread.

I even bore myself sometimes, but this is too important to gloss over.

Regards

Ginseng

[LFFC]

Yes, I saw your calculations on the other thread thanks - but I'm still trying to understand all the aspects here. Think I'll carry on on this thread because the whole pensions/redundancy thing all seems so linked.

So have I got this right about the new redundancy scheme?

Supposing I join AFPS 05 then I'm made redundant in 2010 when I'm aged 49, I would get the new (somewhat reduced) capital payment and an EDP based on only 50% of the pension and gratuity to which I would have been entitled had I served until aged 55.

Sounds like a cunning plan to me Baldrick!


I suppose my real fear is that we develop a demographic bulge of aircrew on the PAS. This wouldn't be surprising because we've been offered such a big increase to our pensions if we stay until 55. I think we're already seeing the impact of that on assimilation. I suspect that the only way to deal with that will be with more redundancies targeted at the PAS.

[Ginseng]

To avoid duplication, you will find the answer to your "age 49" equation on the other thread, in my latest reply to DPH.

Regards

Ginseng

[LFFC]

Ginseng,

Ok - I see my mistake now thanks. It's 65% rather than 50% because the EDP payment rises every year from 50% at age 40 to 75% at age 55.

But I think my basic concern remains that if I join the AFPS05 and get redundancy in the future, I'd take a hit on both the capital payment and on the pension. It's something that I must consider when making the decision on the move to AFPS05 - even if it does look like a good deal for me at first glance.

Regards,
LFFC

[Ginseng]

Depends on your circumstances and the timing. If you are PAS, the increase in pension, even when scaled-down to the EDP, may still be attractive in comparison to the current terms, if you are close enough to normal retirement age and can afford the risk of defering some of the income on the assumption of collecting the second lump-sum at 65. You may take a hit on the SCP, compared to current terms, but not necessarily compared with the terms as they will be from 2008 or 2013. I am afraid you will have to make that judgement for yourself. If you are not PAS, then there is little to smile at all round.

Regards

Ginseng

[LFFC]

Yeah - I'd agree. If you're a Career Spine Sqn Ldr aircrew, then you really have missed the boat (unless you get promoted to Gp Capt)! Guess that serves you right for working too hard!

:(

[Ginseng]

Which begs the question as to why it has been decided that PAS will have all their salary, including that element that was previously given as additional pay, fully pensioned under AFPS05, rather than continuing the half-way house arrangement that was deemed suitable to attract enough people into PAS within AFPS75? The arguments against and for the pensioning of continuous "additional pay", and the semantic difference for most of us between that and our "military salary" are well-rehearsed. If I were a betting man, I would lay odds that MoD were running scared that someone would eventually take them to the European Courts on the justification for charging tax and national insurance on continuous additional pay, whilst ignoring it for pension purposes. If you could attract enough people to a different set of terms of service which did not call the same money "additional pay", and at the same time pension some (or now all) of it, the risk would be much reduced. Pity that this plan still shafts the other poor sods, but who cares about them anyway?

But they wouln't do that, would they?

Ginseng

[LFFC]

Ginseng

I really don't think it was done by design. Besides, a lot of people got together and tried the legal thing years ago.

As I said before, I think Mr C*ck-up came calling! My bet is that the Aircrew Retention team didn't talk to the Pension Review team and by the time it was all decided, it was too late to answer difficult questions.

Now where have I heard stories like that before? :rolleyes:

But as I also said before, the solution is staring them in the face. If they really cared, they would just transfer all aircrew sqn ldrs to the PAS at age 44. After all, they did just give away PAS to all spec aircrew - even to a stumble-bum like me!! :ok:

...and if they really really cared (and wanted to invest in their people) then they might even pull their fingers out and redress the balance in time for their men/women to join AFPS05!

[Ginseng]

Perhaps. But I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that invitation letter if I were you, not when there are all those gapped staff jobs to fill at SO2 level. Of course, PAS Officers are eligible for "flying duties" staff posts aren't they? And I'm sure that having had such a generous offer, and still being in the frame for further promotion, they would be more than happy to oblige.......

Ginseng was then killed in the stampede for the door ....... RIP

Regards

[Hueymeister]

Bugger..this sounds a tad complicated, Ginseng, you should charge for your counsel. When my offer pack finally arrives you'll be the first I'll call.

[LFFC]

Ginseng

Yeah - I remember that I was quite worried about the prospect of a ground tour when PAS was offered. I recall that they made a big thing about PAS officers being given flying-related ground appointments. But I haven't seen many of us get caught for a ground-tour yet - perhaps the wheels are worried about how we'd cope!

Just This Once...

What incentive does the RAF have? Well, I guess it depends on how much they want to keep Career Spine sqn ldrs. I've spoken to quite a few who feel quite insulted by what's happening and I hear whispers that several have already pulled up stumps. I don't think that any rational organisation would have let this happen.

[Ginseng]

Thanks for the plaudit, but I can't legally advise you on your own specific case. Not a qualified IFA, just a difficult, tenacious old B****r in the Brian Dixon mode.

Regards

Ginseng

[Biggus]

Two points:

Firstly, regarding Career Spine Sqn Ldrs. I thought I had heard (from a qualified source) that the rules for them had now changed, with effect from about 12 months ago, in that having made Sqn Ldr you were no longer assured of employment until 55, but now only until 44. Presumably there would be some mechanism whereby, having reached 44, a decision would be made on whether or not furthe service was offered? An assimilation board for Sqn Ldrs? If I am right this makes Career Spine Sqn Ldr potentially even less attractive. Can anyone out there confirm/deny what I have been led to believe.

Secondly, reference PAS and ground tours. I know quite a few PAS people in my world on ground tours, and there is a strong possiblility I will be one of them in a couple of years.

[LFFC]

Biggus,

I hadn't heard about limiting service for Career Spine sqn ldrs to age 44 - that would certainly be news to me, but then again, why should they tell me?

I do know that some in the RN are only guaranteed service to age 50 with a one year rolling extension after that, but 44 seems a bit too unkind!

Regarding groundtours for PAS officers. I'd heard of a few, but maybe it's more widespread than I'd thought - better keep my head down! :( But I suppose it should work the other way too and get rid of the argument that prevents CS officers transferring to the PAS because there aren't enough flying tours for them and they would have to stay in a desk job!

[Ginseng]

That's a completely new one on me. I don't think its true, but this life is full of surprises! The 44 point is a special option to leave. You cannot ask to defer it, you either take it on time, or waive it in its entirety and continue on the assumption of serving to 55.

Regards

Ginseng


Added later.........


I might just have remembered what you were talking about. I am sure a while ago I saw some discussion on whether Sqn Ldrs should still be offered the 44/22 option at all, or whether it should be done away with. Could this be what you remember?
Don't know the current state of play.

Ginseng

[DP Harvey]

Is it possible that the actual policy regarding the 44 yr point is that a Sqn Ldr on the CS is not guarranteed service on the CS until age 55 and that he opt for, or be given an offer he can't refuse, to transfer to the PAS at age 44. I'm sure I saw something along those lines on a powerpoint presentation when PMA rolled out the schemes a couple of years ago.

I might be wrong, though......

[Biggus]

I am not certain I am correct, but I am not in the habit of making things like this up to get a rise!!

It came up as part of a conversation I had about 18 months ago, but as somebody not likely to get promoted I wasn't paying a lot of attention. This was well after the introduction of PAS, so any bumphf relating to that would be outdated if my source was correct!

[DP Harvey]

"Why pay them on PA terms when you can have them for less..."

Well, more pay was the theoretical reason for the PAS at that time; give them more to keep them in. Sqn Ldr pilots on the CS, who were not good potential for either command or SO1 staff work were not getting the advancement, but stuck forever on an SO2 desk to age 55, were leaving the RAF, quite understandably. By giving flying related status to a staff appointment means that the Sqn Ldr would move to the PAS, fly a (peripheral) desk, and get a better than average Sqn Ldr pension. Some would even go back to the FL to gap any areas. I believe that was the theory, but I don't know if the offer or application to transfer to PAS still exists at age 44.

If its possible to feel sorry for a 55 yr old Wg Cdr on the CS, without Fly Pay in his last 3 years, his pension will not reflect the extra work he has put in, compared with the relaxed Flt Lt/Sqn Ldr on PAS Level 35. I don't know the figures, but there is some inequity there. I foresee a lot of senior officer pilots, in their mid 40s, who can neither get promoted to Gp Capt nor get on the PAS, pack up and leave the RAF.

[Topofclimb]

I've just been thru this forum and gained lots of valuable info. Had missed the bit about getting 75% of pension at 55 so will have to do a few more calculations! Anyone know when we can transfer and how long you have to be on the scheme to gain the benefits?? In some parts of JSP 794 it talks about a 2 year qualifying period but not sure if they "backdate" the scheme to April 05? Also as PA I believe we have to do our 5 years on the scheme-Apr08 for those who transferred at the start-so does that mean we could not leave on AFPS 05 until April 08.

As you can see after reading the JSP and lots of this forum I'm still a bit hazy as to whether it would be better to change or if even I can change. Big thank-you to all those who are gradually adding to our corporate knowledge!

Biggus-why do you pay yourself the lump sum (3Xpension) twice in your earlier post?? I thought we only got this once at 65 but then theres a lot of things I don't understand!!

[Ginseng]

The transfer date will be 6 Apr 06.

You need only be in the scheme 1 day, if you have trnsfered in with at least 2 years qualifying service.

Your question about the original 5 year PAS Return of Service is a moot point. I don't know the answer.

When leaving after the EDP point, but before age 55, you do indeed get 2 lump sums, one on leaving and one at 65. If you serve to 55, you get the whole pension immediately but only one lump sum (on retirement).

Regards

Ginseng

[Topofclimb]

And how are the lump sums worked out if say I have served to 52 and my pension is say £25000. Is one based on 3XEDP, and one 3X Pension??

[Ginseng]

No. Both are 3 x pension accrued at point of retirement. The first is paid on leaving, the second at age 65 (index-linked back to date of retirement). See my reply to Biggus on the "More Cuts Coming" thread acknowledging an error I made earlier.

Regards

Ginseng

[Oggin Aviator]

Hi

Just wondered if you knew where to find a table detailing Accrued Benefits % (for years served) under AFPS 75 (or how to calculate it).

cheers

Oggin

[Ginseng]

For AFPS75:

Officers:

Accrual rate even over 16 years from age 21, to reach 28.5% of representative pay at the 16 year point. Thereafter, a slower even rate over the next 18 years to reach 48.5% of representative pay at 34 years service from age 21 (Age 55).

Airmen:

Accrual rate even over 37 years from age 18 to age 55, reaching 48.5% of representative pay after 37 years.

For AFPS05:

Everyone:

Even rate of accrual over 35 years from start of full pay service, reaching 50% of final pensionable salary after 35 years. With the opportunity to earn increased accrual up to a maximum of 40 years for further service beyond 35 years. (widows pension 62.5% of members accrued pension, but capped at about 37.33 years service).


Regards

Ginseng

[Oggin Aviator]

Thanks Ginseng; all your efforts on this thread and the other one are very much appreciated :ok:

So is the rate of accrual linear from 28.5% to 48.5%? if not is it laid down somewhere the actual accrual rate per year served?

I'm still confused as to how the RN justifies the new pension which states for an immediate full pension you have to retire at 55 - our rules for officers state that under a Full Term Commission you have to retire at age 50 unless you make Cdr (Wg Cdr equivalent) or higher. Therefore we will never be able to get a full pension by service alone - we would need to pay to top it up. If we didnt do that we would have a monthly EDP to 55, then a slightly bigger monthly EDP till 65 then the full monty. Or does the 2 EDP lump sums take this into account ........ hmmmm? :confused:

Unless of course whilst I've been away sunning myself in Spamland over the last 2 years they've changed the retirement age?

Another question - is normal retirement age for RN FTC(A) (=PA Spine) 55?

Oggin

[Ginseng]

Yes, the AFPS75 Officers accrual rate is linear from 28.5 to 48.5.

To the best of my knowledge and belief, the AFPS05 scheme rules do not allow an immediate pension, as distinct from an EDP, ever to be paid from retirement before 55 in cases that are unconnected with invaliding on medical or similar grounds, but I am always willing to be corrected. Whether RN terms of service might be adjusted to allow people service to 55, when their current engagements leave them a bit short, is a matter for the Navy personnel staffs - I cannot possibly answer it.

Likewise, I cannot personally guarantee that RN "PAS" are on engagements to 55, although I suspect that that is the case.

If these matters are not clarified in your OTT pack, then you must go back and ask the questions. You cannot make a full and fair comparison without knowing the answers.

Regards

Ginseng

[LFFC]

I'm still confused as to how the RN justifies the new pension which states for an immediate full pension you have to retire at 55 - our rules for officers state that under a Full Term Commission you have to retire at age 50 unless you make Cdr (Wg Cdr equivalent) or higher. Therefore we will never be able to get a full pension by service alone -
Oggin,

That's the whole point about AFPS 05 - government policy is that nobody should get a pension until they are aged 65. But they have given the military a dispensation that allows us to have a pension at age 55. If you are fit and leave before age 55 then the government assume that you will seek employment elsewhere and do not need a pension until you're 65.

So it would seem that Lt Cdrs in the RN, that have not been promoted to Cdr by age 50, will leave with only the EDP. I can't help feeling that that is a bit harsh as it must be damned difficult to start a new career as a civilian at that age - but as long as it's good for the RN........

However, if you are an officer in the RAF, aged below 38, and you sign up for AFPS 05 then your terms of service will be changed to 18/40 to fit in with the new scheme and allow you to have an EDP when you leave. So maybe something similar will happen in the RN and terms of service for Lt Cdrs will be changed.

Regards.

[Toxteth O'Grady]

Oggin

Another question - is normal retirement age for RN FTC(A) (=PA Spine) 55?

Yes.

I knows it 'cos I is one! ;)

:cool:

TOG

[Ginseng]

Check your PMs.

Regards

G

[Ginseng]

Added much later:

Check your PMs again!

G

[Oggin Aviator]

checked and replied :ok:

pesky time difference :*

[LFFC]

Just This Once....

Nope - haven't done that, but I did have a look at the stats that compared age against rank in the RAF.

It appears that really "high-flyers" start getting promoted to sqn ldr at age 28/29. Statistically, by the time you get to age 33 the RAF has promoted enough high-flyers to provide them with the number of wg cdrs that they need in the future.

Of course, there will always be some high-flyers that don't get promoted to wg cdr, and others that get promoted to sqn ldr after age 33 that do get further promotion. But the message is that, the longer you're a flt lt after age 33, the less likely it is that you'll get promoted to wg cdr in the future.

So in the future, if you're aged 37 and get offered sqn ldr then your choices seem to be:

1. Take the higher pay and extra flying tour, then stay in the RAF on the Career Spine doing continuous ground tours with little chance of further promotion or flying again.

2. Take the higher pay and flying tour then leave for the airlines at age 40.

3. Reject the promotion and hope for an offer of PAS at age 40 and service to age 55.

Now, let me think about that for a few minutes.........

[Ginseng]

LFFC,

I am sure there are many thinking the same way, understandably. However, do bear in mind that if you accept PAS, you are accepting an enagement which is still open to competition for promotion. Can you be sure that, if you have aleady refused a promotion, you won't be regarded as having excluded yourself from eligibility for consideration for PAS terms? I don't know the answer, and I have no axe to grind, but it may be worth thinking about.

Regards

Ginseng

[LFFC]

Ginseng,

That would be a hard choice wouldn't it! Just imagine, you're aged 41 and on the PA Spine as a flt lt - then you get promoted. If I remember correctly, that would mean that you move back into the Career Spine wouldn't it? It certainly would do if you were a PAS sqn ldr getting promoted to wg cdr!

If so, you would be taking a big hit to your pension prospects if you were signed up for AFPS05!

No - the whole system just seems broken to me. I do hope they fix it before we have to make the pension decision - then we'll all know where we stand!

And another thing Ginseng,
Can you be sure that, if you have aleady refused a promotion, you won\'t be regarded as having excluded yourself from eligibility for consideration for PAS terms?
If they took that stance, who would they have left to make PAS at age 40? I would suggest that it would be only those people that didn\'t even try to get promoted - is that really what we want? Now that really would give the Army and RN some ammunition! :ooh:

Regards

[Nignog]

I have asked this question before but never had a reply. Indeed when asked at one of the new pension briefings the briefers did not know the answer so here goes.
Under Gordon Brown's new pension rules no one will be able to take a pension before the age of 55 after april 2010. The new pension scheme obviously escapes this because of the change to EDPs etc. However, if you stay on the old scheme, will you be able to take a pension if you retire before 55 after April 2010. If anybody out there has a definitive answer please let me know.

[LFFC]

Nignog,

Sorry, but I couldn't actually see a question there. But I think the answer is "yes".

:O

[Oggin Aviator]

What Nignog is asking is this.

He is thinking of staying on the old scheme ie not transferring to AFPS 05. Therefore under that schemes rules he would be entitled to an immediate pension assuming he had served enough time ie beyond IP. However he could still be younger than age 55 at this point.

Now, the Chancellor has stated that come 2010 no-one under 55 years old will be able to draw a pension.

So the question is:

If still on AFPS 75 and leaving the service in 2010+, having served past IP but before age 55 - will you get a pension?

i think!

Oggin

[LFFC]

I've never seen any suggestion that the terms of AFPS 75 for existing scheme members will be changed beyond 2010. Maybe Ginseng knows more.

However, when Nignog gets his Offer to Transfer it will state quite clearly what he can expect when he retires if he stays on the old deal. It might be worth saving that document - just in case!

Regards

[oldfella]

June Focus newspaper, letter from a member of the Service Personnel Pensions Team. Mentions OTT advice to be given in July with comparisons of both schemes but also mentions that there will be an online pension calculator to help with "what if" calculations.

Three months from date of despatch of OTT pack to decide whether to tale new option.

[DP Harvey]

A lot of people are placing a great deal of reliance on the Offer to Transfer pack-up. I believe we will be dissapointed in the degree of personal information in it. Sure, it will mention your name and current engagement, etc, and explain what, in general terms, you will receive at the end of your current engagement under both schemes. Any reference to AFPS75 will refer you to the existing rules which, quite honestly, you all should know what to expect. How can they possibly know what rank you will be in when you leave the RAF before and beyond the IP point and at age 55? They don't. AFPS05 information will simply repeat what we know about EDPs and Age 55, etc. How do they know what you will be earning at age 55 or any time beforehand? They don't.

I would be very surprised if there was any reference to PVR/NGR and redundancy, as it would effect you on an individual level, except to refer to the redundancy terms as already published or call an IFA or AFPS hotline, etc.

There are hundreds of thousands of personnel due to receive these pack-ups. I hope I'm wrong, but I don't believe they will each be detailed enough to give actual pounds and pence comparisons, without reference to a generic calculator.

So, I'm using my own methods to find out all I can, and then I will make my mind up, perhaps using an IFA. The pack up should not tell me anything I don't already know.

[LFFC]

DP Harvey

I agree with you - I think that the Offer To Transfer packup will be aimed at the average soldier and won't answer many of the difficult questions that aircrew might have.

You're also right that everyone must make up their own minds given their own circumstances. So my advice to everyone is to ask lots of questions if the paperwork doesn't give you the answers that you need. Don't make assumptions!

[Ginseng]

Ref your post yesterday at 22:56...

Sorry, don't know anything about this one.

Regards

Ginseng

[LFFC]

JTO...

EARLY DEPARTURE PAYMENTS (EDP) SCHEME
Introduction
Changes to tax law by the Inland Revenue do not allow pension benefits to be paid from a tax-approved pension scheme before the age of 55 (apart from those for ill health). The new Early Departure Payment (EDP) Scheme is not a pension, but it pays a tax-free lump sum of three times pension and a taxable income, so it is a compensation payment, similarly structured to the Immediate Pension (IP) in AFPS 75 but of a lower value. It is payable to personnel who leave Service from age 40 AND with at least 18 years of service, but before the normal retirement age of 55.

Who is will be affected by this change?

Those who choose to transfer to the new AFPS 05 and, new entrants or re-entrants to the Armed Forces from 6 Apr 05 will be eligible to receive an EDP (apart from certain specialist staff who are on bonus terms). Those already in receipt of an IP or who are currently serving and decide to remain in AFPS 75 will NOT be affected by these changes.

That was taken from the MOD website at:

http://www.mod.uk/issues/pensions/early_departure_payments.htm

I always thought that the last sentence was quite clear. But I can understand why you are suspicious.

[Ginseng]

Think I understand what's behind this one now. It is true that HMG intends to change general pensions legislation so that from 2010, it will not generally be possible to draw benefits from a pension scheme before the age of 55. However, there will be certain exceptions for professions where it is recognised that fitness requirements make such a late compulsory minimum pension date impractical. I believe these exemptions will cover the Armed Forces, Police and other emergency services, as well as at least some categories of sportsmen/women. That would seem to provide the answer to the question.

It is nevertheless true, though, that the rules of the AFPS can, in principle, be altered at any time by appropriate legislation.

Regards

Ginseng

[LFFC]

Ginseng,
It is nevertheless true, though, that the rules of the AFPS can, in principle, be altered at any time by appropriate legislation.
Whilst that's true, the clip from the web that I quoted above seems to be quite clear.

Given that the wheels have been very cautious to ensure that anything they say will not make them liable if you make the wrong pension decision (hence all the stuff about seeking independent advice), it seems quite significant that they have stated that these changes to the tax law will not affect people who choose to remain in AFPS75. They must be pretty sure of their facts.

On the other hand, if that advice proves to be wrong at some time in the future, they may well be held liable for issuing misleading advice.

Regards

[Ginseng]

All I was really meaning to point out is that the quote you posted can be interpreted in a number of different ways. I am not accusing the MoD of deliberately pulling the wool over anyone's eyes. Nevertheless, the quote says that those who choose to remain on AFPS75 will not be affected by "these changes". Do those words refer to the "Changes in UK Tax Law", or to "the introduction of the Early Departure Payment Scheme". None of us can be quite sure which of these two meanings, or another, the writer intended to convey. And, in the end, the MoD cannot, and will not, give a cast-iron guarantee that tax law will not change in the future in a way that it cannot foresee now. Be very careful, therefore, not to assume that the words are a legally watertight way of saying what you would prefer them to mean.

Regards

Ginseng

[moggi]

Perhaps someone can help shed some light on this one - I'm 10 years into my 12 year Short Service Commission and they have just offered me a PC. The initial paperwork gives an 18/40 point, which infers that rather than giving me the option of transfering to AFPS 2005, I will be transferred anyway.

Clearly I would like to stay on existing AFPS 75, and sign on 'til 16/38. Is this Innsworth pulling a fast one? If so can I wave a "preserved pension rights" card?

There will be an obvious disparity between 2 people who joined at the same time, one who can retire on a full pension at 38, and one who has another 2 years left to run!

Any help appreciated!

[Impiger]

There was an RAF briefing session on the Pension in MOD last Thursday and another is planned for Monday. It was extremely good and I highly recommend that any who have not been, and are concerned about their pension, should attend. The roadshow will tour all Stations I believe.

The standard disclaimer is of course that all circumstances are particular to any individual but in essence those who serve the full stretch seem to be more likely to benefit under AFPS05. Those who leave earlier seem more likely to see some advantage in sticking with AFPS75.

The calculator will help and one individual who said he was intending to stick went through his sums in public session and was surprised when the new scheme worked out better! The factors you have to weigh are when will you retire from the RAF? What rank will you be and how how long have you been in that rank? Do you intend to work full time? If so have you time to earn another pension before 65? How long do you intend to work after leaving? The list goes on.

On IFA the advice was that for the princely sum of £20 an organisation called the Armed Forces Pension Association (a charity staffed by ex-Forces and Financial Advisors) will do an individual assessment for you and give you advice.

All in all then, people should not be too glum about this. For some there will be real benefits in the new scheme and for others there will be no compulsion to join something which disadvantages them.

I strongly advise all to go and listen to the presentations.:ok:

[Ginseng]

Moggi,

I think what lies behind this is that the RAF at least is intending to offer an extension of service to the 18/40 point, to all those who are currently on 16/38 terms, so that they may have the opportunity, if they wish, to transfer to AFPS05 and serve to at least the initial EDP point. It sounds as though they are pre-empting your decision on whether to take the PC. Whether they will give you the leeway you are looking for is doubtful, since your 16/38 point, if you were to transfer now, would fall after the AFPS05 transfer date. Talk to your OCPSF and have him/her ask the question pronto!

Impiger,

You are generally right, but it depends on other circumstances. If like me, you were a late joiner, and have no pre-21 service to gain in AFPS05, and are not PAS, you may still find (as I have), that AFPS75 is the slightly "better" option, even at the 55 year point (and much better for earlier retirement!).

Regards

Ginseng

[Impiger]

Ginseng

I agree I should have said that total length of Service is actually more important than age on exit. Its just that most join from school/higher education and thus age on exit tends to equate to length of Service.

I was pleased to hear that University Cadet Service counts (from age 18) mainly it would seem because we were paying National Insurance contributions! Now about that missing 6 months of contributions before I hit 18 do you think I can get them back:E

[Ginseng]

Probably not. Just console yourself with the thought that they may count towards your state retirement pension, if there were enough of them within a single tax year to make it a qualifying year!

Regards

Ginseng

[oldfella]

Impiger mentioned a MOD briefing.

OTT comes out in July, MOD briefings well nto July - not too much use and already eating into time to decide.

Is there to be a roadshow, and what timescale?

[DP Harvey]

Given the dispersement of Service personnel in the MOD, a roadshow plan would be open to all kinds of problems. Some folk will not get a roadshow due to their location, etc, and if in the fullness of time they realise that they made mistake in their choice they could argue that they were unfairly informed, because other people got a roadshow and they didn't.

This is down to individuals looking after their own interests. There is a lot of clearly written info, about both schemes available. Flt Cdrs with junior ranks could convene meetings in their workplaces, with admin staff present to broadcast and explain some of the terminology involved, and generally make themselves and the admin staff available to clarify any confusion.

The current redundancy scheme is muddying the water somewhat, but it too comes with pension info and an option for the individuals involved to revert to AFPS75 if required.

[OKOC]

After asking if the Adminers at Cranwell will give individual advice I was categorically told "ABSOLUTELY NOT-IT MAY GIVE YOU RE-COURSE LATER IF THE ADVICE PROVES WRONG".

I've spent the £20 and joined.

[covec]

How will "A-Day" April 2006 affect both the 75 & 05 AFPS?

I believe that there will be a lifetime cap on what your pension is worth - starting from 20 times your annual pension.

Not likely to be an issue for AFPS 75 I admit - but what about those of us on the PAS and signed to age 55?

Anyone have any ideas or heard any rumours about how the new pension laws from "A-Day" will affect AFPS 05?

Regards:confused:

[Ginseng]

DPH,

I agree that the idea of a roadshow, though to be welcomed, is problematic unless it can be uniformly delivered to everyone, which I doubt. Whilst I would thank Impiger for his post, it seems a little unfair if those who happen to be working in MoD at the critical time have the benefit of a roadshow, and a demonstration of the calculator, which is not afforded to everyone else.

OKOC,

I have to sympathise with the position taken on advice. The administrators can tell you how the system works, but they are not qualified to give you personal financial advice.

Covec,

The lifetime pension limit to be produced within the "A-Day" rules is, I believe, about £1.5M. This refers to the size of the investment fund which provides your personal pension. The AFPS, just like the National Insurance "Fund", is not a fund at all. There is no pot of money. Your income stream is paid from current Treasury spending via the MoD pay and pensions bill. I don't think you have anything to fear. Enjoy your huge new PAS pension (but spare a thought for the rest of us!)

Regards

Ginseng

[Impiger]

The briefing in MOD was one of several - each Service will hold at least one: I think the next RAF one is planned for tomorrow and then RN and Army ones next week and/or the week after. Whitehall warriors have been advised to attend at least one as they are reasonably generic but those run by one's own Service are obviously going to be of most benefit.

As for a wider roadshow I have to admit that was my expectation rather than a given. The MOD - RAF presentation was I think run by RAF Uxbridge so if they can do it every Station can.

I believe that once the Offers to Transfer are sent out each individual has 3 months from receipt to decide so the clock is not yet running. The lass who briefed us also mentioned a receipt of offer slip which she implored us all to fill in and return. Why? Well because they will send hasteners to anyone who hasn't decided and they really want to make sure that every individual has received their personal assessment and offer.

I know it is easy to be cynical and scepical about this but the 'system' is really trying quite hard to be squeaky clean on what is after all a rather important change.

[Ginseng]

Unfortunately my understanding is that, for the RAF, the 3-month clock starts ticking from the day your OTT pack is despatched (to your pay statement address), not from the day you actually take receipt of it.

Regards

Ginseng

[Oggin Aviator]

Anyone know the consequence of someone on the career stream at the moment who opts to stay on AFPS 75 then transfers to PAS later on down the line - do they have to transfer to AFPS 05 at that point (which actually would probably makes sense cos' its probably worth more on PAS) or could they stay on the old scheme?

What I am trying to say is that if you get an extension of service or if your Commission/Enlistment terms and conditions change are they going to force you onto AFPS 05?

cheers

Oggin

[c130jbloke]

You might wish to try this link:

http://www.forpen.co.uk/

I suspect that it is the organisation a previous poster referred to.

c130jb


:ok:

[VitaminGee]

Oggin,

As I understand it, your type of commission should not dictate the pension scheme. It is only personnel who join the services after Apr 05 (?) who will have AFPS 05 as their only option.

I'm FAA PAS and will have the option of either scheme although, for me, adopting the new scheme is virtually a no brainer.:ok:

VG

[LFFC]

Oggin,

I believe that once you've made your decision to stay on AFPS75 you won't be able to change to AFPS05 whilst still serving. If you left the services and cashed in on AFPS75, then rejoined, you would automatically be in AFPS05 - but you'd be starting from scratch again.

So you've got to think really hard about your chances of being offered PAS. At the moment, I hear that almost nobody is being offered it - they have probably worked out how much it's going to cost them! By my reckoning (roughly 500 PAS at an extra £10000 a year pension) inclusion of the PAS will cost about £5m a year - and that's just for the RAF!

I wonder if they took that into consideration when they did the sums to make sure that the overall cost of AFPS05 was neutral?

[Ginseng]

VitaminGee and LFFC are absolutely right. 6 Apr 06 is a one-off offer transfer date. That means you have to take your gamble now. Frustrating, but it's one of the conditions.

Regards

Ginseng

[Oggin Aviator]

Best stay on '75, stay on the career stream and hope to get promoted when everyone else leaves having had enough. Then '75 is quite a good deal!

... unless of course they make a shed load more people redundant when the new carriers are cancelled :(

[LFFC]

VitaminGee,

You need to watch out. I hear that the RN have all but stopped extending the service of aircrew Lt Cdrs over the age of 50. If that happens to someone who's in AFPS05, they would take quite a big hit to their pension.

It will be interesting to see in a few years time just how many aircrew Lt Cdrs in AFPS05 actually serve to age 55!

[Ginseng]

In case anyone is interested in an estimate of the potential relative merits, or otherwise, of AFPS05 compared with AFPS75, I tried a series of calculations to compare one with the other for 2 canned examples, retiring at a range of ages between 40 and 55.

I apologise that these illustrations cover only two of many potential profiles, and are currently limited to Officer ranks, and exclude PAS aircrew (whose position, I think it is clear, is rather different to everybody else).

These examples are for 2 Officers, each of whom joined on his 18th birthday. One reaches the rank of Flt Lt/Lt/Capt and proceeds to the highest pay increment for the rank. The other is promoted to Sqn Ldr/Lt Cdr/Maj on his 37th birthday. Both serve initially to age 40, at which point the Sqn Ldr has just completed 3 years in the rank.

If they now both retire at age 40, then their total accumulated pension value paid to age 65, assuming 3% year-on-year inflation over the years to age 55, once all lump-sums are included (but ignoring the affects of taxation, which will vary between individuals) are:

Sqn Ldr: AFPS05 value = 78% of AFPS75 value. At age 64, prior to payment of 2nd AFPS05 lump sum, AFPS05 value was only 65%.

Flt Lt: Same comparison: 84% (was 71% at 64).

Neither can reach parity between the 2 schemes unless they live to at least 100.

For retirement at 45:

Sqn Ldr: 82% (77% at 64)
Flt Lt: 90% (75% at 64)

Parity point assessed as being in the very late 80s.

For retirement at 50:

Sqn Ldr: 86% (69% at 64)
Flt Lt: 81% (65% at 64)

Parity point about mid 80s

For retirement at 55

Sqn Ldr: 108% (difference equates to about £26000 in total value)
Flt Lt: 104% (about £10000)

This profile was chosen to allow the extra 3 years service, and the potential to exceed 35 years Reckonable Service in AFPS05, to have an effect. It demonstrates that for these particular individuals, the cross-over point does occur, but only very close to the age 55 point. No account has been taken of improved benefits elsewhere in AFPS05, the value of which individuals must assess for themselves.

These examples do not reflect any particular individual. They are provided to assist understanding of the intent of AFPS05, which is not only to pull people through to age 40, but to fundamentally redistribute the balance of pension income from those who leave in mid-career towards those who will serve a full career. They also demonstrate that any claim that the payment of the second EDP lump sum at 65 fully restores the balance at that point is bogus, although it does clearly reduce the deficit considerably (if you are prepared to wait for it).

Regards

Ginseng

PS: I should have made it clear that all values are estimated in 2005 £s, having been calculated from 2005 pay and pension scales. The AFPS75 pension rates used are the reduced rates for exit by PVR for all ages under 55, as is most appropriate for a fair comparison.

[covec]

Ginseng - ta for the reply.

Re "thinking of you all re my PAS pension": I had planned to leave the Service at my IPP - the PAS + AFPS05 put paid to that - despite being the holder of a new "frozen ATPL".

Cash was not the only reason however...service offered to Queen n Country still appeals for some reason...and you just cannot beat the mil cameraderie...

Gulf War 1; now February after 3 months or so deployed:

Nimrod Air Eng: I'm so homesick and fed up I think I'll go and hang myself.

Other crew member: Well don't swing too much - you'll make yourself sick.

Another crew member: ...and we'll have to clean it up...

Regards:)

[Ginseng]

I agree. If I didn't still find enjoyment and satisfaction in it I wouldn't still be here. Oh, plus the fact that I'm probably unemployable anywhere else!

Regards

Ginseng

[VitaminGee]

Thanks for the concern. However, it is not a case of "extension" in my case. PAS in the RN manifests itself as the Full Term Commission (Aircrew) or FTC(A) with a normal retirement age of 55.

If they wanted to stop me going past 50 they have blown it - by just over a year already!!!:D :E :D

VG (determined to cling on for another 3 yrs and 361 days!!)

[Yeller_Gait]

I take it that you have not taken up the retention bonus, otherwise you will need to repay that if you leave before 22. The principal of signing on to the new pension scheme and claiming your EDP at 18 years is sound as far as I am aware.

[Ginseng]

All very good questions. Sorry, but I am not going to try to answer them for you as I do not feel sufficiently well clued-up on NCA Terms of Service, and I would not like to say anything which might prove to be wrong (I know, that hasn't stopped me in the past!). The best suggestion I can make is to wait for your OTT pack, run the various scenarios through the on-line calculator (which should be available at www.mod.uk/issues/pensions from Mon 18 Jul) and then take your questions on TOS to your Chief Clerk in the first instance. Clearly, you need to get definitive answers in order to be able to make an informed choice.

Regards

Ginseng

[oldfella]

The calculator is up and running. If on PA Spine you need to follow the specialist table line, know the date you transferred to PA and your expected final pay scale.

[southside]

hey, thats a good calculator. Apparently, if I were to make Admiral I will leave with a golden handshake of £249,000 AND an annual pension of £149,000. Phew. Now, How do I get to be an Admiral????

[November4]

Calculator is on the MOD Website (http://www.mod.uk/issues/pensions/pensions_calculator.htm) .

Just used it and found that if I leave after 22 years and live to 75 then I will be down £140K if I changed over to the new scheme.

Not a hard decision to make then!

[Jacks Down]

Thanks for the link. I've just gone through various combinations of exit date, rank etc and assuming I live to be 80 I haven't found a single instance where I am better off under the new scheme.

As you say, not a particularly difficult decision to make.

[Ginseng]

Well, the calculator arrived on the advertised date and, as far as I can tell, works correctly within the stated limitations. It is disappointing that, for the most part, it will only cope with whole years of reckonable service, particularly as the PAS/PES(A) portion has to use the number of days as PAS to calculate the AFPS75 PAS pension enhancement correctly. If this could be included, I don't understand why the rest could not be developed to calculate for uncompleted part years. What you need to do is force the calculations for the whole years above and below your retirement date, then apportion the difference (number of extra days/365) and add the extra figure to the total for the lower number of years. I also found that, when I included dates which involved a fraction of a year, the calculation was rounded down for AFPS75, but up for AFPS05, producing a comparison which appeared to be the opposite of the truth (although the reason for the difference was visible). Be aware also that it cannot calculate for less than 2 years in the current rank at retirement, and that for commissioning from the ranks it will assume that at least 5 years commissioned service have been given at retirement. For PAS/PES(A), it is not possible to obtain a correct AFPS75 calculation directly for a level above the bar for a specialisation, as these levels are not offered in the menu, but the AFPS05 calculation will be correct if you use the pilot's menu and specify the appropriate level. The AFPS75 calculation alongside will not be correct, because it will be based on the pilots' daily enhancement rate. With those limitations in mind, happy calculating!

Regards

Ginseng

[rej]

Well I played with the calculator and with option points at 41 and 44 I would consider that I would have to be stark raving mad to change to AFPS 05.

Granted that if I stay in 'til 55 AFPS 05 will equate to an extra £700pa at age 55 and another £2k on the gratuity, the financial loss with an early departure don't appear to be worth the extra few quid if I stay. Comments please.

[Muff Coupling]

Calli,

You must have 2 years service left to transfer onto the 2005 scheme. This might be a shocker to some!

I only found out at a OTT brief recently. Effectively, if you have less than 2 years to your ROD, you will not be able to go across. I would suggest that if you have PVR / resigned prior to transfer date you will not be eligible either. :uhoh:

[Ginseng]

Sorry, but I really don't understand where that comment comes from, and I think you may be confused. You have to have a minimum 2 years of service (from your original date of joining) to establish an entitlement to most AFPS benefits (for example, an initial preserved pension value). That point is common to both the AFPS75 and AFPS05. I am completely unaware of any restriction on transfer to AFPS05 if you have served less than 2 years at the transfer date or have less than 2 years left to serve. As far as I understand it, the MoD gave the Parliamentary Select Committee on Defence an undertaking that all those personnel currently serving in AFPS75 at the transfer date would be eligible to elect to transfer to AFPS05 at that date if they so wished. If anyone knows different, I would be happy to hear from them.

Rej

You just noticed the gamble with AFPS05. Will you stay long enough to benefit a little, rather than potentially lose a lot? And of course, it all depends on the greatest unknown - how long you will survive in retirement.

Regards

Ginseng

[Unmissable]

Can anyone help with the following scenario:

I transfer to new scheme and for some reason leave before age 55 thus entering into EDPs, lets say age 50.

Then I snuff it for natural reasons (eg heart attack) before the age of 65 and getting the proper pension and associated grant.

What would my wife get? Would she still get the pension lump sum (that I was going to pick up at 65)? Would she get a pension based on my years service immediately, or would she have to wait until I would have been 65 to pick up any benefits? Would she have to pay back anything (or have any money abated)?


I have tried to read the documents but get completely lost.

[Widger]

Muff C,

I think the bit you may have seen is that you must be serving on 6 Apr 06 to be eligible to transfer to the new scheme. There are also some clauses regarding those on rendundancy terms.

[c130jbloke]

Has anybody seen a link (or actually used in anger) to the online pension calculator yet ? I have tried to follow Ginseng's link, but I have had no joy.

Thanks

C130JB

[Yeller_Gait]

C130 bloke,

Try one of these two links

http://83.138.137.164/pensioncalculator/WizardScreens/WizDisclaimer.aspx

or

http://www.mod.uk/issues/pensions/pensions_calculator.htm

The first one should take you straight to the disclaimer screen. I have used the calculator without any problems.

[Ginseng]

The situation you describe would be treated as a"Death in Deferment", because your EDP is not a pension. Your real pension has been preserved at your date of retirement, and payment defered to age 65. Hence my understanding (although you must get this confirmed) is that your widow would be paid your age 65 pension lump sum and her widow's pension (based on your preserved pension) from your date of death. She would obviously need to know how to go about claiming the pension and what proof of your date of death and previous service would be required, so make sure you find out and leave clear instructions where she or your executor can find them.

Regards

Ginseng

[Ginseng]

No, you can't! If you think that is frustrating try this one for size:

In Feb/Mar 2003 a Spec Aircew Sqn Ldr could have been offered entry to the PAS on inception at 1 Apr 03. If he decided to turn it down on the basis of the information provided at the time (say because the increase of pension for PAS in AFPS75, though attractive, was insufficient to offset the other changes in terms of service and employment profile), he will now find that he cannot benefit from the even greater pension increase on offer to PAS by transfering to AFPS05, even though that second increase was not part of the offer on the table at the time. Moreover, the second ARR briefing pack stated specifically, in writing, that any new pension scheme in the future would only impact on those joining after the new scheme came into force. This was not contradicted by any material published prior to 1 Apr 03, at which stage the details of AFPS05 were unknown and the legislation had not even been introduced to parliament. Moreover, he is now not only in a far worse position than other Spec Aircew Sqn Ldrs who transfered to PAS, but also the Flt Lts who did the same. And, in future, he will see any Sqn Ldr who has transfered to AFPS05 and is then offered the cross-over to PAS being able to accept the offer knowing that it will mean the full AFPS05 PAS deal!

Food for thought!


Muff C

I have checked today, and there is no minimum requirement for remaining service to transfer to AFPS05. You need to transfer in a minimum of 2 years previously served in AFPS75 (or another employer's scheme) to qualify immediately for all applicable AFPS05 benefits from the transfer date. The bottom line is that all those in service on 6 Apr 06 are eligible to transfer, whatever the remaining period of their current engagement. You were either misled or misinformed.

Regards

Ginseng

[Ginseng]

Yes, I take your point. And then there is the odd guy who may have had an offer of Spec Aircrew promotion in the pipeline when the PAS offer came along. The transfer terms required him to forego the promotion and go back in the pot with everyone else in order to go PAS. His alternative was to keep his promotion but stay as Spec Aircrew. Three years down the line he finds that he has been given an even bigger shafting. I know at least one person that this happened to. I don't think anyone intended these things to happen, but the combination of these two offers has produced some bizarre results. No doubt we are expected to accept that they should be seen to work in complete isolation from each other, but the reality for some people is VERY different.

Regards

Ginseng

[Compressorstall]

Yet more in the PAS vein. Does anyone know where you stand with regards to the OTT and the resultant move of the EDP to 18/40? I accepted PAS terms, due to start next year at my 16/38 point, but if I accept the AFPS05, does that mean that starting PAS is deferred until the 18/40 point? Am I in the same boat for the FRI2 as well. I asked the pensions hotline where a very nice lady told me it was complicated and she didn't know...

Any help out there?

[Ginseng]

I don't know, but I can't see logically why your entry into PAS should be delayed. If you are committed to the minimum return of service, that would take you past the 18/40 point. I think it is possible that any offers made in future will be based on transfer at the 18/40 point, but that is a matter for the service personnel staffs. I think the same arguments should apply to the FRI, which also carries a minimum R-o-S condition. Good Luck.

Regards

Ginseng

[Axial Flo]

I have just gone through the pensions calculator process and plotted a graph of the results from age 45 to 55.

Being PAS I am better off under AFPS 05 except for about 2 years between 45 and 47 years old. What is really interesting is a little spike on the graph at age 54. It appears that, assuming I live to 75 years old, my total pension income under AFPS 05 is some 16000 more if I PVR at 54 than if I retire normally at 55.

Anyway, interesting stats aside, it appears that I can't afford not to switch to AFPS 05.

Flo

[LFFC]

Ginseng & Just This Once ......

Full realisation of just what has happened to sqn ldr aicrew in the Career Stream is just beginning to bite.

I met an old friend at Fairford over the weekend who candidly told me that accepting promotion to sqn ldr was the worst move he'd ever made. Whilst he accepted that he'd enjoyed his command tour and has earned more over the last 4 or 5 years, had he known what was planned for PAS pensions he would have rejected promotion, continued flying and happily served until age 55.

Unfortunately, because the PAS is so lucrative, PMA have more than enough "older aircrew" and even though he's an A2 QFI, PMA won't transfer him back into the PA spine. As his promotion prospects look bleak, he's decided to leave the RAF and join the airlines.

He told me that he's far from being on his own...........

He laughed uncontrollably when I told him about some of the old oxygen thieves that are being posted back to the sqns because PMA can't find anything else for them to do!

[Ginseng]

I'm afraid the Law of Unintended Consequences knows few bounds, especially in politics!

Regards

Ginseng

[OKOC]

Ginseng,

I am one of those who had the choice of staying as Flt Lt and being allowed to transfer to PAS OR accepting promotion to Spec Aircrew Sqn Ldr (and no PAS). Trusting the system and proud to having finally being picked up for promotion, I chose the promotion.

What a mistake to a make! Not only have I dipped out on my pension but I now have to chose whether to stay on AFPS75 or transfer to 05. Now here is another problem-I have a reduced flying med cat and Glasgow have sent me a prediction of my Life Commutation HOWEVER I cannot find out by how much, if any, of this Life Commutation may be reduced by until I have my release medical in 3 years time-I could lose the lot potentially.

So in short, I have 3 months to make a decision but I don't have a vital piece of the information ie how much my life commutation would actually be-how can I be expected to make this decision without the full picture? And, no-one is prepared to help and worse still does anyone care.

[Ginseng]

What a bum*er. You genuinely have my sympathy. All I can think to say is that AFPS05 offers no commutation except the opportunity to reverse-commute, i.e to trade some of your lump sum back for an increase in your annual pension. Not sure it's much help, but it might allow you to see the two schemes in perspective for your circumstances.

Regards

Ginseng

[timex]

OKOC/GINSENG

What can they do to you if you decline to make a decision until you have the full facts, can they "make" you chose ? Surely you can only decide when you have all the facts.

[Ginseng]

Well, you have to take it on trust, of course, that you have the correct facts. Hence my earlier comment about the second ARR briefing pack. For those who don't have the reference handy, I quote from Page 3, "PA Spine Pension".

"The PA Spine pension arrangements are still being developed. However, current pension arrangements are being reviewed as part of the Armed Forces Pension Scheme Review (AFPSR). Currently, the AFPSR team is recommending that we move from our current scheme, which is based on representative rates of pay, to a final salary scheme. Should this recommendation be implemented then it is important to remember that this will only impact on future Service personnel who join the AFPS after the new scheme is in place."

Regards

Ginseng

The answer to your speciifc question is that if you do not return an election form, you will, by default, remain on AFPS75.

[Down 4 Reprogram]

I've just had a go on the Pension Calculator and I must admit it seems a decent bit of kit for once. The figures it churned out for AFPS05 were very similiar to those I had worked out using a spreadsheet/back of a fag packet.

However, there seems to be one small glitch - I haven't yet moved onto the PAS, but if I enter my 38/16 point at the entry to PAS date (i.e. in the future) and run the calculation it appears to use the Spec Aircrew daily supplement (currently 52.3p per day for navs) instead of the full Flt Lt PAS rate (currently 86.0p per day for navs). As a result, by my figures, it underestimates my pension on AFPS75 at 55 by some £2100.

D4R

[Axial Flo]

Just received the offer to transfer pack with the personal benefit statement. The statement appears to be completely misleading and does not agree with the online pensions calculator.

I am PAS and the pension at 55 appears to be calculated as though I retire on the same PAS level as the one I am currently on.

Consequently it appears that AFPS 75 is a better deal if I serve to 55 (by 1000 pa and 3000 lump sum).

If I run the calculator for PAS level 35 and retire at 55 then AFPS 05 is a much better deal (by 4000 pa and 12000 lump sum).

Am I missing something, is the statement in error, or has it just been produced in an incredibly confusing manner?

Any thoughts Ginseng?

Flo

[Ginseng]

I haven't received my pack yet, but my guess is that the Personal Benefit Statement is calculated for your situation today (or at 6 Apr 06), with the calculator then being available for you to explore various future profiles. After all, the "system" cannot know for sure when you will finally retire. The calculation may not even have been done at this year's pay rates, and will have been produced a little while ago.

At least, that's the only way I can make sense of what you describe.


D4RP

The "Specialist Aircrew" daily supplement in the PAS Pay tables is only for the Army, who have certain types of people they refer to as Spec Aircrew. It is not Spec Aircrew as the RAF knows it, since it is nonsensical to have RAF Spec Aircrew on PAS terms. This might be the source of the confusion (its not something I have come across). Double check that you are making all the correct Service, Rank and Unique Pay Table selections. Come back if you can't sort it out and I'll take a look.

Regards

Ginseng

[timex]

Ginseng........thanks

Another Q, why dont they mention index linking on the calculator for AFPS 75?

[Ginseng]

Because the effect of any index linking would be merely to preserve the value of the payment in 2005 pounds (or whatever year the calculation has been done for), which is what you are being shown. Of course it does mean that payments which are not index linked (EDP prior to 55 and AFPS75 pension prior to 55) will reduce in value for each passing year after retirement. It is left to you to judge the affect that inlfation may have on your payments throughout early retirement.

Regards

Ginseng

[timex]

Ginseng, once again thanks.

[Down 4 Reprogram]

Ginseng

Thanks for the quick reply. I spoke to the Pensions People and they agree someone on the RAF PAS should never get the Spec Aircrew supplement.

I have double checked my entries in the calculator and the results are the same. In order not to completely compromise myself I have PM'd you with my figures and will be interested to see your thoughts.

D4R

[Ginseng]

PM received. Wait. Out.

Regards

Ginseng

Added later:

D4RP!!!!! Check your PMs!!!!!!!!!

[Down 4 Reprogram]

Ginseng,

Message received and understood, thanks.

D4R

[Background Noise]

Not sure what all this P-M'ing is covering but I'm PAS and my transfer offer illustration does not show the level of pension at 55 that I expected and it is nowhere near the pension calculator figure.

[Axial Flo]

Background Noise

My post above concerns exactly the same problem. I spoke to the OTT service centre about it today. They said that the pension illustration is based on retiring at 55 but on my current (Apr 05 when they did the sums) PAS level. Clearly this makes no sense at all. In my case a 43 year old on PAS level 24 - how could I possibly retire at 55 still on PAS level 24? I couldn't unless I was assessed as well below average for the next 12 years and hence didn't get the annual PAS pay increment.

I also asked about the assumptions behind the AFPS 75 illustration. I think that is based on the representative rank related pension plus the PAS supplement.

The result is at first glance I seem to be better off under AFPS 75, but after doing the sums I am actually better off under AFPS 05 to the tune of 4000 pa (assuming I retire on PAS level 35).

I can only conclude that the offer to transfer personal benefit statement is at best confusing and at worst down right misleading

Flo

[Ginseng]

All will now be revealed.

Down4Reprogram has found an apparent error in the calculator when handling AFPS75 PAS calculations for RAF Flt Lts (apparently pilots, navs and rear crew). Based on the figures he passed to me, I have confirmed that he correctly entered figures for a Flt Lt, assimilating to PAS at the 38/16 point, and serving to 55 (as a Navigator). The figures produced by the calculator seem to indicate that it had applied the wrong look-up table, calculating his AFPS75 PAS pension enhancement at the Army "Specialist Aircrew" daily rate, instead of the appropriate Flt Lt PAS rate. The calculated total was therefore a considerable under-estimate. He reports that this error also appears to occur for Flt Lt PAS pilots and rear crew (I have not yet checked this). The clue was in the labelling of the forecast for the expected rank at retirement, which was given as "OF2SPECAIR". The calculations that I had run for Sqn Ldr PAS were correct, and were labelled only "OF3". If you have run similar forecasts, check the labelling. For reference, for 34 years reckonable service in AFPS75, with 17 years as a PAS Navigator, the total pension should read approx £29,318 (£23,982 basic plus £5,536 enhancement), with a lump sum of £88,554.

Ginseng

[Ginseng]

What you say about the Personal Forecasts now makes sense. They are clearly calculated on your current pay/representative pay levels but projected forward to the reckonable service you would have if retiring at 55 from that level. OK for a first order comparison between the two schemes, but ridiculously misleading as to your actual pension calculation at 55, even accepting that they can only be made at 2005 rates. I can see some scenarios where this would distort the true comparison between the schemes at that point. The moral is: proceed with great care and check by hand if you can. As we have just seen, even the calculator contains at least one serious bug, and there could be more yet.

Regards

Ginseng

[Maple 01]

There is a real push for the new scheme. Everyone, and I mean everyone, on the station HAS to see the presentation - even those of us who are ineligible because we're out soon – so I have to waste an hour of my life on something that has no relevance to me. Not for the first time, obviously, but I'm curious, why the compulsory brainwashing? Is it all a treasury lead plot to rob us of our rightful reward(s)? Or just bad man-management?

[Ginseng]

Are you leaving before 6 Apr 06? If not, then you are eligible. I don't think there is any plot. More likely, your local management are very keen not to be accused later of having left anyone out. I can't blame them for that.

Regards

Ginseng

[Well Travelled Nav]

I recently ran through the pension calculator and ran into a statement that would automatically extend my terms of service if I opted for AFPS05.

I reach my 38/16 point in Aug 2010 and having served less than 18 years I would be daft to transfer onto AFPS05. However, on reading the definition of EDP, I discovered that it states:

"If your current terms end at the earlier of age 37 (38) or 16 years service, you will automatically be given the opportunity to complete additional service to the new 18/40 point if and when you transfer to AFPS05 terms."

Having not noticed this anywhere else in the literature I ran the OTT people to clarify this point. They were also unaware or where this was clarified! The best they could offer was that I make sure that if I transfer I should ensure I get the offer to extend from my Desk Officer.

Can anyone help me out on this point, is it pukker gen?

Also, I am keen to be assimilated and two extra ACR's may help, however, even serving 18 years and retiring on AFPS05 this would apparently (according to the pension calculator) leave me a lot less well off in pension payments.

Many Thanks

WTN

[Jambo Jet]

Got my offer to transfer in the post this morning.:p

Im stuffed.

Why? Because I have 18 months to do with no offer of PA.

So I have to stay on 75.

However, My bosses reckon I will be offered PA in Nov when the board sits (Now I see why they have delayed the PA board this year).

So I have to choose 75 or Im stuffed if I dont get PA.

And if I get PA then Im stuck on 75 rather than the better 05 when I serve to 55.

Bugger!:mad:

[Oggin Aviator]

It is pukka.

Those on a 16yr/38 type commission will automatically be extended in service to 18yr/40 type commission should they opt into AFPS 05. So the upside is 2 more years work, the downside is that in most cases you still wont get as much had you left at age 38 on AFPS 75.

HTH

Oggin

[DP Harvey]

Jambo,
I would seek an extension to your offer acceptance date if I were you. They are expecting a lot of returns beyond the 3 month period due to OOA commitments and one or two other reasons. They should accept that your concerns are genuine and that there is a definite date (PAS Board) in the near future when you can make a properly considered decision.

Best of luck

[oldfella]

A major change to your possible future pension and cashflow after a lifetime of service.

An online calculator that has flaws. An advice package that doesn't even try to look beyond your present salary level. An admin empire that will have great problems sorting out real advice for you.

A possibility of another change in the near future.

Never mind, read the possibly flawed advice and make your decision. Get it wrong and tough, you cannot change, it's your fault, you made the decision.

Man management????? It makes you want to weep.

[Ginseng]

Is it true that the PAS selection board has been defered to later than the normal date this year? If it is, then I think that's disgraceful at such a critical phase of the OTT process, and highly suspicious. I think DPHs suggestion is sound, although I'm not sure they will play ball, although they should (in my opinion).

I'll be out of circulation for a couple of weeks now. Duty Calls. Best of luck to you all in the meantime. Perhaps by the time I'm back they will have fixed the calculator. Who knows?

Regards

Ginseng

[Down 4 Reprogram]

Just this once...

I haven't checked the rest of your figures yet, but note that the online calculator seems to underestimate the PA pension under AFPS75 for Flt Lts if you PVR as well as if you stay to 55.

As far as I can tell Pilots/WSO(N)/Rearcrew Flt Lt's need to add 33.7p for each day they are on the PAS to the AFPS75 figures given. That equates to an extra £2091 pension if you stay to from 38 to 55. The PAS Sqn Ldr figures appear correct to me. I haven't checked the figures for NCA as there is no lower Spec Aircrew equivalent. The AFPS05 figures also look OK to me.

IMHO the PBS is good for ground trades, where there is little difference in the AFPS75/AFPS05 comparison between say a Flt Lt Level 6 and a Flt Lt Level 9. My own PBS shows a comparison based on standard Flt Lt Level 9, when in fact I would retire on PAS Level 30 making a huge difference in pensions etc. I suggest you look carefully at the figures yourself and try and decode exactly what it means to you. Personally I have written a spreadsheet to do the hard sums. A couple of people have asked me for a copy, but it quickly became apparent that there are wide variations in requirements - what if you have previous service to take into account, or joined the PAS later than 38 etc? So in effect it is unfortunately down to you to do the donkey work and sort out what is best for you and your family.

If you are still confused then why not speak to your "unit administrative staff" or the OTT desk, as recommended in your OTT pack up, to see if they can sort out these problems or even better sort out the errors in the calculator.

Good luck.

D4R

[LFFC]

So, the calculator underestimates some PAS AFPS05 pensions? Why am I not too surprised!

Another dark thought just occured to me. The Armed Forces Pay Review Body routinely take pension arrangements into consideration when setting rates of pay. I wonder how they will react to a vastly improved pension situation for aircrew in the PAS? Once most PAS aircrew have signed up for AFSP05, a reduction in PAS pay might really hurt!

[Ginseng]

Er...... No, actually. The calculator underestimates PAS AFPS75 pensions (for Flt Lt Pilot, Nav and Rear Crew).

Regards

Ginseng

[LFFC]

Sorry Ginseng, I should have read the thread more carefully.

I suppose I'm just naturally sceptical that I'm going to get such a better deal without any catches!

[OKOC]

Two things: I am beginning to smell a rat as EVERYONE seems be pushing us to transfer to 05-why?

Secondly, I got my personal predictions thru from the OTT lot and they had failed to fill in the "Specialist Aircrew" at line 3 under "rank" ie it was left blank. (I think this only affects the calculations though for the 75 scheme). So I rang them up to be told quote "does this matter-will this change the calculations?"

Are these the "experts" who we are relying on to enable us to make an informed choice-I am flabbergasted frankly and have no faith in their competence. Anyone else out there who has had this ommission? :confused: :hmm:

[Green Bottle 2]

When the calculator had first come out, I did a number of calculations using it for differing times/ranks etc. I didn't read them i detail at the time just printed them off. A few days later I checked through them and I had enterred the same data twice on two examples. I cecked and rechecked the data enterred on the printout and they were identical, yet the pensions differed considerably. (I got other people to ceck to make sure I was not being dull and missing something.)

I wouldn't trust the calculator as it seems to give inconsistant readings, but it really is no contest anyway as AFPS 05 will probably disadvantage you in most cases if you leave before 55. It will in mine.

GB2:rolleyes:

[VitaminGee]

A further fly in the ointment may be the possibility (according to today's BBC News) that HMG may, in the future, extend the Public Sector retirement age to 67 - thus delaying further the receipt of 2nd EDP and restoration of full pension for those on AFPS 05 who leave before 55. For consideration maybe?

VG

[Topofclimb]

Anyone know where I can find details of the Medical Discharge payments on AFPS05. I will almost certainly be better off transferring but need to know MD details. My thoughts are ;

MD at age 49 on level 3-pension enhanced by 1/2 remaining service, an extra 3 years. Pension payed on exit in this case as if you left at age 52-is pension same as you would get at 65 and what about tax free payments?? Just one on discharge??

Thanks!

[VitaminGee]

ToC,

There is a summary in mmp/124 "Your Pension Scheme Explained" which formws part of the OTT pack. This also refers the reader to MMP/125 -" Armed Forces Compensation Scheme" and MMP/115 - "Invaliding". The latter two are accessible off the MOD Intranet.

VG

[Topofclimb]

On my way to have a look!!

[ProfessionalStudent]

Just got my OTT paperwork thru and it confirms that unless you are a committed lifer, you'll be better off staying on AFPS(75), especially if you commute the maximum available.

One of our best friends is a pensions expert and she confirms that fact too. Her advice is that unless you're a lifer, you would be crazy to leave the old scheme.

Remember, they wouldn't have changed to the new scheme if it was more expensive...

[Topofclimb]

Don't agree!! If your PA then your pensionable salary will be greatly enhanced under 05. Obviously the later you leave the better you will be.

[ProfessionalStudent]

Of course, if you're PA that's true. I'll join the q along with everyone else!

[USasBRIEFED]

Has anyone digested changes to redundancy payments under the new scheme, ignoring the rights to cross back to 75 under the present 3 rounds. I had a quick glance at DIN 2005DIN02-093 and it seems that should you be made redundant in the future, the future is certainly not orange.

[Oggin Aviator]

Just copied this quote from Talk Split on the other thread:
Read the small print very carefully. Page 7 of the AFPS05 (orange) booklet talks about opting out of the scheme.
The last paragraph states that if you opt out (or fail to join it) then you have ONE chance to join later as long as you are still serving and medically fit. I read that to mean that I don't have to decide in the next three months. So I could stay on AFPS75, which is beneficial up to 16/38, but if I then continue beyond that point, I should be able to transfer to AFPS05 at a later date, when it becomes financially viable further down the line.

Have I read this right
Ginseng - Any thoughts on this statement - I myself have not got my OTT pack yet and also have not seen this anywhere therefore cannot comment but am interested if it is true - certainly for those people not on PA spine now that subsequently transfer to PA spine this opportunity would be great.

Oggin

edit to say in all the briefing material I have seen it has stated that this is a one time only chance to swop schemes. If this is true I personally think it is slightly unfair as people's circumstances change all the time so through no fault of the individual they may decide to go with one scheme only to disadvantage themselves due to circumstances that change later on down the line.

[DP Harvey]

Oggin and TS,

My interpretation of that paragraph on page 7 of the orange book is that you have one option to join and one further option to re-join if you temporarily opt out and join a private scheme.

Your one option to join is now.

But thats only my opinion, although I'm quite sure that the OTT would have made it quite clear that you can defer your decision to any future time while you remain in the Services. I believe it doesn't offer deferrment (I haven't received mine yet, so standing on thinnish ice), but Ginseng will probably know more about this.


PS. I Just found the answer half way down the left hand column on Page 1 of the OTT Booklet, available at the MOD pensions website, here (http://www.mod.uk/issues/pensions/index.htm)

It is quite clear that you have only one opportunity to join the new scheme. The orange book paragrah can be misinterpreted

[oldfella]

I admit that all is not good. The OTT info is not the full picture, the online calculator is slightly inaccurate and the admin staff have little knowledge beyond the pamphlets but at least there is a choice.

The new pension system will come into force. All new personnel will be on it. Those of us who joined under a different scheme have a choice to change or not.

I understand that personal circumstances can change but there seems to be too much speculation by individuals about accepting 75 or 05 then deciding to leave early. No system will ever be produced that will enhance remuneration to those who do not fulfil their contracts.

[4fitter]

Not sure that if you're a lifer and opting is a good bet either.
Received my pack yesterday and despite the calculator showing that if I stayed till 55 I would be better off on 05 (2K on the pension and 8k on the grant) my PBS, however, showed that I would be worse off on 05 by 1k/6k. And with 75 I have the chance for commutation and am not tied in to minimal funds if I pull the yellow and black.

As an aside, I have asked for guidance from PMA as I have been paying AVCs to up my In Service Death Benefit for donkey's years. With the transitional arrangements taking effect from 1 Apr 05, everybody automatically has 4 times the rate. I am still paying for an enhancement that is now everybodies by right, at least until a decision is made for 1 Apr 06. This anomaly had apparently missed the pay people and I am told they are trying to see how they can give me my money back.

Is anybody else out there paying for AVCs and not getting much joy ?

A still undecided 4f

[4fitter]

Lockstock

VMT. Why couldn't PMA tell me this or direct me to the web site ! Hey Ho and spending my windfall on gadgets already.

4f

[Stanley Eevil]

Ginseng - please check your private messages!!

[Toxteth O'Grady]

Does anyone know how to buy extra years?

If you're on PAS but joined after age 20 you can't get the max possible AFP05 pension on retirement at 55, because you'd have less than 35 years service.

I have seen somewhere that it is possible to 'buy' extra years to make it up to the full 35.

Can anyone point me in the right direction for more definitive info on the when, where, how, whom...of going about this?

:cool:

TOG

[detgnome]

2 interesting things to come out of the briefing that we had, which was attended by a civil service lady who had been heavily involved in the drawing up off the scheme:

1. Look at the figures if you are PAS and transfer to 05 then PVR a short time before the 55 point. Whilst the EDPs will be less than your pension until 65, the second lump sum more than makes up for this if you can stand the decreased EDP until then. On one typical scenario it led to an overall benefit of £60k. This was pointed out by the civil servaant and we were assured that the question had already been asked at higher levels and whilst it may appear to be a 'loophole' it is entirely legit and the administrators of the scheme are not trying to close it.

2. With regard to timings and how long you will have to make your mind up, it is unlikely that anyone will be chased before the end of the year. Apparently there is a significant cock up relating to the OTTs for the Army and they will not have to make a decision until later this year or early this year. Also remember that they cannot force you to make a choice and if you do not then you will just stay on the current scheme. This will be confirmed in writing in Feb/Mar next year so arguably if you haven't submitted a return you could argue the toss then...

[LFFC]

detgnome

Thanks for that. I'm PAS and had spotted your first point - must admit that I'd found it hard to believe, so your post is quite reassuring.

Interestingly, if I PVR at age 54, my EDP a year later will be about the same as my pension would have been under AFPS75. So with a second lump sum and a much bigger pension at age 65, the decision to move to AFPS05 is a complete "no-brainer"!

:D

[Biggus]

Lockstock,

Is the clock ticking? I am sure I read somewhere in the last day or two (maybe on an mod pensions website) that because of a delay (i.e cockup!) with the Army issueing their AFPS05 paperwork (it is triservice after all) all this talk of having to get your reply in within the next 3 months had gone out the window!

Can anyone confirm or deny this?

[Stanley Eevil]

There are `bugs` in the written OTT projections that affect a fair number of people, including PA Spine Flt Lts, giving an incorrect (underestimate) assessment of the AFPS 75 benefits. The affected people will be issued with fresh, corrected OTTs. Clearly this will delay the decision making process. I have seen one e-mail suggesting that the 3 month `clock` will now not begin until 1 Sep 05 at the earliest. I didn`t find the OTT projection particularly useful because it uses `current` pay rates and doesn`t attempt to project forward to age 55?
The MOD `on-line pension calculator` is basically pretty accurate give or take £100 per year.
For what it`s worth, here are some comparisons for the benefits paid at 55 for a theoretical Flt Lt PA Spine pilot retiring at 55 with 34 years reckonable service, and with the maximum of 17 years on the PA Spine. I have used the 2005 pension and pay rates to do the following MANUAL calculations.

AFPS 75:

Flt Lt Spec Aircrew rate is £23982 with 34 yrs reckonable service.
PA `enhancement` of 17yrs x 365days x £0.707/day of PA service
is £4387
Total Pension equals £28369

AFPS 05:

Flt Lt PA Spine level 35 salary is £67175 (current ceiling for pilots)
Reckonable pensionable service is 34 years, so retirement pension is 34/70 x 67175
Total Pension equals £32628

So AFPS 05 `wins` by £4259 but of course there are other considerations too!!!

[Yeller_Gait]

detgnome, LFFC et al,

Regarding PVR just before age 55 to ensure that you get the two lump sums under AFPS 05, a few calculations below show that the benefits are not as great as you might think.

These calculations are irrespective of rank, PAS or not ...

Pension at 55/65 = X

Retire at 55
Pension = X
Gratuity = 3X

Over 10 years to age 65 total benefits = 13X

Retire at 54
Pension = 75% of 0.97X (approximately) for 10 years
And 1 year at 50%
Gratuity @54 = 2.91X
Gratuity @65 = 2.91X

Total received over 11 years = 13.6X

On these figures I would suggest staying to 55 is probably the better option, certainly in the short term.

Y_G

[Toxteth O'Grady]

However in the retire at 55 case, wouldn't you have to pay income tax on X for 10 years, so net value would be 10X - 20% = 2X, so net value is 8X. Therefore total value is 11X.

In the 54 case the 2.91X at 65 is tax free, and your tax liability for 10 years would be 7.25X - 20% = 1.45X, so net value is 5.8X. Therefore total value is 12.12X.

Hopefully I've got me sums right, but a Sqn Ldr PAS in the latter case would be > £30k net better off over the ten years to 65.

:cool:

TOG

[Yeller_Gait]

Toxteth,

Fair point, in purely monetary terms you may well be >30k better off, however, and just trying to present a balanced arguement, rather than a p£$$ing contest...

If you retire at 55 and invest the extra 25% into savings, an annual net return of 5% will give you approx 25k over the 10 years. I still would suggest that the money is more use to most people while they are 55-65, rather than waiting till age 65 before getting the money.

Most people can expect to be still relatively fit and healthy when they retire from the military, the same cannot be guraranteed 10 years after retirement. It is a gamble.

[Red Line Entry]

The Government (and, I expect, future ones) have been mooting the idea of retirement at 67 instead of 65. Might the result of such a policy be that the final pension and lump sum paid under AFPS 05 would also become deferred to age 67?

I've no evidence to support this view - anyone know any better?

[Ginseng]

Back from jaunt overseas. Obviously quite a bit to catch up on here!

Stanley Eevil: Check your PMs

The bit about defering your decision on the basis of opting back in to the AFPS is a red herring, if you never opted out in the first place. That is something you can only do on first joining, and you have to do it within 6 months. This OTT process is not an opt in/opt out point in the same sense. Sorry to disappoint.

Hope to catch up with other points when time permits.

Regards

Ginseng

[Anita Bush]

Does anyone have the contact details for the Armed Forces Pension Association mentioned by Impiger on one of the earlier pages please?:confused:

[VitaminGee]

AB,

I believe it is a Society rather than Association - try here (http://www.forpen.co.uk/index.htm) . You could also try the Veterans Agency (www.veteransagency.mod.uk).

VG

[Yeller_Gait]

The Forces Pension Society
68 South Lambeth Rd
London
SW8 1RL

Tel 020 7820 9988

www.forpen.co.uk

They also give a very good financial brief as part of the resettlement program.

Y_G

[Stanley Eevil]

Ginseng,

Please check your PMs!

[Ginseng]

Done and replied!

Ginseng

[Stanley Eevil]

Ginseng

Please check (again!) your PMs. Cheers!!

Ginseng,

Have a look at the following link:

http://www.raf.mod.uk/news/aircrewretention/profav.pdf

This is the original PA Spine paper dated Jan 03. Have a look at Annex C-1:
It gives an enhancement rate (2003 data) of £0.647 per day on the PA Spine which is added to the existing Flt Lt Spec Aircrew or Sqn Ldr basic pension rates.
This has now increased (presumably at roughly the same rate as our annual pay awards) to £0.707 on 2005 pay scales. It cannot possibly have jumped to £1.044!! In short, I therefore cannot accept your statement that the incorrect enhancements have been used on the on-line calculator.

[Ginseng]

Those were indicative shadow rates based on 2002 pension codes and quoted prior to the announcement of the 2003/4 pay and pension awards and before the PAS came into being. The current (2005/6) pilot OF2 rate is £1.044 per day as PAS. If, as you contend, this is not the appropriate rate for RAF Flt Lt PAS pilots, then who do you propose that it applies to? I stand by my statement. Down4Reprogram may wish to chip in here, as he and I were involved in this very discussion, and he sought confirmation of the error from official channels.

Regards

Ginseng

[Stanley Eevil]

Ginseng,

Thanks for replying - I really value your input on this issue. Believe me, I would be delighted if £1.044 was the correct enhancement rate for PA Spine Flt Lts, and I hope you are correct, but AFPAA told me it was £0.707 - (yes I know that they make plenty of cock ups). My `difficulty` with all of this is the current Sqn Ldr AFPS 75 enhancement rate of £0.705. From a common `base level` pension of approx £24000 at age 55 under AFPS 75, why are ex Spec Aircrew Flt Lts on the PA Spine getting a significantly bigger enhancement than former Spec Aircrew Sqn Ldrs?
As an aside, the Forces Pension Society sent me an independent 3rd party calculation of my benefits under AFPS 75. It was virtually identical to the on-line calculator which, they claim, is correct. Look forward to your reply.

[Ginseng]

Then who do the Forces Pension Society believe the £1.044 should apply to? I can't see anyone else. Can you? Unless someone can answer that question, I can see no reason to change my position.

Regards

Ginseng

[Stanley Eevil]

Ginseng,

Thanks for the reply. I will phone AFPAA again and see what they say. I `ll specifically mention the £1.044 rate if I get the same answer as before. Will keep you posted.

[Down 4 Reprogram]

Stanley and Ginseng,

Sorry I've been unavoidably away for a little while.

The PA Supplements are published each year by "Directed Letter". I found the latest version on the Intranet at work before I left, but couldn't find it on the website. I seem to remember I had to go to the Corporate Comms webpage, then look at the archive links to find a link to "2005 pension rates". AP3392 Vol 2 only gives the basic pension values not the supplements.

This years values are:

Pilot
Spec Aircrew £0.707
OF2 (Flt Lt) £1.044
OF3 (Sqn Ldr) £0.705

Navigator
Spec Aircrew £0.523
OF2 £0.860
OF3 £0.521

Rearcrew
Spec Aircrew £0.449
OF2 £0.786
OF3 £0.447

All supplements are per day on the PAS.

My conversations with the Pension Gurus at Glasgow (not the Call Centre folk but the ones who actually seem to know) say that as PA you get either the OF2 or OF3 rate depending on your rank at retirement. As PA you should never get the Spec Aircrew figure - even if you PVR and leave before age 55. Unfortunately, the online calculator seems to use the Spec Aircrew rate for AFPS75.

A Flt Lt PA will retire on the representative Flt Lt Spec Aircrew basic pension plus the OF2 supplement, whereas a Sqn Ldr PA will get the CS Sqn Ldr pension plus the OF3 supplement. However, for those who retire with more than about 25 years reckonable service (i.e. from age 21 for officers) there isn't much between the Spec Aircrew Flt Lt and CS Sqn Ldr pension. The higher rate of supplement can therefore strangely mean that a Flt Lt PA can get more pension than a Sqn Ldr PA. I reckon about £2079 more for a pilot/nav/rearcrew retiring at 55.

Just in case I've made a complete mess of the figures I'll check again when I get back in work next week.

D4R

[Ginseng]

Yes, that is my interpretation too, unless anyone can suggest a different one.

Regards

Ginseng

[Stanley Eevil]

My conversations with the Pension Gurus at Glasgow (not the Call Centre folk but the ones who actually seem to know) say that as PA you get either the OF2 or OF3 rate depending on your rank at retirement. As PA you should never get the Spec Aircrew figure - even if you PVR and leave before age 55. Unfortunately, the online calculator seems to use the Spec Aircrew rate for AFPS75.

A Flt Lt PA will retire on the representative Flt Lt Spec Aircrew basic pension plus the OF2 supplement, whereas a Sqn Ldr PA will get the CS Sqn Ldr pension plus the OF3 supplement. However, for those who retire with more than about 25 years reckonable service (i.e. from age 21 for officers) there isn't much between the Spec Aircrew Flt Lt and CS Sqn Ldr pension. The higher rate of supplement can therefore strangely mean that a Flt Lt PA can get more pension than a Sqn Ldr PA. I reckon about £2079 more for a pilot/nav/rearcrew retiring at 55.


Down 4 Reprogram

Thanks for your input. How totally bizarre that a Sqn Ldr PA Spine pilot will get £2000 less pension per year than a PA Spine Flt Lt, even though they have the same reckonable service and the same `base level` pension at age 55 (approx £24000).
Another reward for accepting promotion obviously.

Any chance you can find that enhancement rate link and post it here?

[Stanley Eevil]

Ginseng, pse check PMs

Further to my last post, I have phoned AFPAA again today and spoken to a key player in the pension policy department. I believe I am now clear on what the situation is regarding PA pension enhancements under AFPS 75:

The OF2 enhancement rate of £1.044 for pilots does indeed exist as stated by Ginseng, but NOBODY serving in the RAF will receive this rate. The OF2 in question is a Royal Navy (RN) Flt Lt equivilant (i.e a Lieutenant).
This is because the RN does not have our reserved rights to the `Specialist Aircrew Flt Lt` band for pension purposes on transfer to the PA Spine. So the maximum basic pension that a Lt can therefore achieve at age 55 with 34 years reckonable service (before any enhancements) is £19882 (the same as an RAF ground branch Flt Lt). In other words, a RN Lieutenant who joins the PA Spine is effectively about £4100 behind us in pension terms at age 55 before any PA enhancements. This was eventually deemed to be `unfair` when the PA spine was being formulated and so the RN was given a bigger daily enhancement rate (£1.044/day) to try and restore some of the balance at age 55. Even after that, the RAF Flt Lt is still better off as you will see shortly.

The on-line pension calculator is ABSOLUTELY CORRECT in all respects (apart from not crediting `part years`) and does use the £1.044 rate for RN PA Lt pilots only, the £0.707 rate for RAF Flt Lts and the £0.705 rate for Sqn Ldrs. Try it for yourself.

Some illustrative calculations:

1. RAF Flt Lt pilot with 34 years reckonable service with 14 years on the PA Spine:

AFPS 75: (14 x 365 x £0.707) + £23982 = £27595
AFPS 05: (34/70 x £67174) = £32627

2. RN Lt with 34 years reckonable service with 14 years on the PA Spine:

AFPS 75: (14 x 365 x £1.044) + £19882 = £25217
AFPS 05: (34/70 x £67174) = £32627

It clearly follows that RAF PA Spine Flt Lts and Sqn Ldrs will indeed get very similar pensions in AFPS 75 because of the almost identical enhancement rates. Hope this helps.

[Down 4 Reprogram]

Stanley,

Your explanation makes complete sense. However, it looks like the Pensions Dept is putting out some very conflicting information. On both the occasions that I have spoken to them they have said that as an RAF Flt Lt PA I would get the OF2 supplement that you have been told would only be paid to the RN!

I'll speak to them again on Monday and see if the story has changed. If the "experts" in the field can't agree about what we would be paid for a pension then how are we mere mortals expected to work it out and make an informed decision? - rant over, back in my box.

D4R

[Stanley Eevil]

D4R

I agree entirely; the whole thing is a complete mess. I have just received a pension forecast in the post this morning from AFPAA which gives me (at age 55) on AFPS 75 just the `base`Spec Aircrew Flt Lt pension rate of approximately £24000 and NO PA ENHANCEMENTS WHATSOEVER, let alone £0.707 or £1.044!!
The pensions guru from the policy unit who phoned me at work yesterday was very helpful and clearly knew his subject inside-out. I am 100% sure that my last post is correct - in other words you CAN have confidence in the on-line pension calculator, apart from its inability to calculate `part years`of reckonable service.
The biggest clue that it MUST be right is that it would be untenable for a PA Flt Lt pilot to be able to retire at 55 with a pension £2100 more than a PA Sqn Ldr - nobody would accept promotion!
Also, the Forces Pension Society`s independent calculation was consistent with the £0.707 rate too.
Ginseng - your thoughts?

[Ginseng]

OK, I can see the logic in that answer, and if it is the truth then clearly I have to retract the accusation that the calculator is in error in this case. However, that leaves us with the problem that you and Down4Reprogram have now asked the same question of “experts” at the AFPAA and have been given completely contradictory answers. Meanwhile, I have been told (though not, I admit, by AFPAA) that the Spec Aircrew rates apply to the Army only. If you are right, then it begs the question why this confusion could not have been avoided simply by labelling the Pensions Letter Annex G table accurately to make it clear to whom each of the rates specifically applies. Frankly, I have to say that I now tend to be suspicious of the clarity and accuracy of most of the published data on this issue. Assuming that you have now been given the correct answer, then I apologise to all readers here if my previous posts have misled. I can only assure you that they were made with the best intentions and I believed them to be correct.

Regards

Ginseng

PS: Just athought on your last post. Having a Flt Lt receive a larger pension than a Sqn Ldr clearly is not untenable as far as MoD is concerned, since under AFPS05 a PAS Flt Lt can achieve a larger pension than a CS Sqn Ldr. As you say, who wants to get promoted now?

G

[Biggus]

All......

As a non-pilot (sorry, but someone has to be!) can I take it that the concensus seems to be forming that the correct figures to use are:


Pilot
OF2 (Flt Lt) £0.707
OF3 (Sqn Ldr) £0.705


Navigator
OF2 (Flt Lt) £0.523
OF3 (Sqn Ldr) £0.521

Rearcrew
OF2 (Flt Lt) £0.449
OF3 (Sqn Ldr) £0.447


These figures would seem to make sense to me. When the scheme was first introduced/muted (2002?) the figure for navigator was about £0.48. I am sure of that!! Given three years of pay rises at about 3% a year this would bring it up to about £0.52, as quoted above. To get to £0.86 from about £0.48 is an 80% rise in three years - which seems highly unlikely!

[LFFC]

Ginseng,
Having a Flt Lt receive a larger pension than a Sqn Ldr clearly is not untenable as far as MoD is concerned, since under AFPS05 a PAS Flt Lt can achieve a larger pension than a CS Sqn Ldr. As you say, who wants to get promoted now?That's exactly my point. I would suggest that the answer is; only those people who are sure that they will get promoted beyond Sqn Ldr or who have no intention to staying until they can get a full pension.

If you are still a Flt Lt aged over about 33 and like the idea of staying in the RAF until you're 55. My advice would be to reject promotion and hope for assimilation. Mind you, watch out because not many Flt Lts are being assimilated these days. I suspect that, from now on, entry to the PAS will primarily be used as an incentive for CS sqn ldrs to stay and carry out alternate flying and groundtours, or to retain aircrew with important additional skills such as QFIs and QWIs.

[Stanley Eevil]

Ginseng

No apologies necessary whatsoever dear chap! You have been a source of much useful information on this forum that many people (including me) have benefitted from hugely.
Apologies ARE required however from both AFPAA and the OTT centre who have displayed a total lack of competence and care when issuing facts to people like us who are striving UNDER TIME PRESSURE to make one of the biggest financial decisions of our lives. I must admit, my confidence in these so called `experts` has been reduced to almost zero and I shudder to think how many people are going to make the `wrong` decision based on factual advice which is clearly both flawed and contradictory.

Biggus

Yes, those PA enhancement rates (RAF, 2005/6) are correct - according to the gentleman in the policy office at AFPAA!

[Biggus]

I have just read the article in the latest RAF News about the new pension scheme, and there was some information in there that frankly confused the heck out of me! I am refering to widows pension rights.

While I will try to find the answers to my queries through the mod websites I was wondering whether anyone out there could enlighten me as to the situation in the following four circumstances:

AFPS75 - Widows pension rights on death of spouse while in service.

AFPS75 - Widows pension rights on death of spouse after retirement from the military.


AFPS05 - Same two sets of circumstances as quoted above.


If anyone could help I would appreciate it - I will happily take a reply as a PM if it is easier. Many thanks!

[Ginseng]

Don't have the RAF News to hand. What is the query exactly?

Regards

Ginseng

[DaveyBoy]

Biggus: there are bits of small print all over the place, and the following will change if you are counting service before 1973, if the Armed Forces contributed to your death, etc, but the following is a summary of what's most likely to happen, as I understand it. The pension you get if you are discharged for ill-health is based on your current earned years, plus half the years you could have earned from now to 55, with a minimum of 20.

Still haven't received the OTT pack yet.


AFPS 75 - Widow's rights on death of spouse while in service (cause of death non-attributable to the MoD):

- Death-in-Service Lump Sum equal to thee years' pensionable salary, tax-free

- Short-term Family Pension equal to your current pensionable salary for 91 days if you leave one dependant (widow or child), 182 days for two or more, and up to 273 days if you are not entitled to a pension or have been in for less than 2 years.

- Widow's Long-Term Pension payable once the short-term family pension stops. It is equal to 50% of the pension you would have got if you had been discharged for ill-health (non-attributable to the MoD). It stops if your widow cohabits or remarries, but would start again if they divorce or cease cohabiting.


AFPS 75 - Widow's rights on death of spouse after retirement from the military (cause of death non-attributable to the MoD):

- Short-term Family Pension equal to your current daily pension rate for 91 days if you leave one dependant (widow or child), 182 days for two or more, and up to 273 days if you are not entitled to a pension or have been in for less than 2 years.

- Widow's Long-Term Pension equal to 50% of the pension you were receiving in retirement. It stops if your widow cohabits or remarries, but would start again if they divorce or cease cohabiting.


AFPS 05 - Widow's rights on death of spouse while in service (cause of death non-attributable to the MoD):

- Death-in-Service Lump Sum equal to four years' pensionable salary, tax-free

- Spouse/Civil Partner's/Partner's Pension Normally around 62.5% of the pension you would have got if you had been discharged for ill-health (non-attributable to the MoD). Reduces if you are not married at the time you transfer, and your partner is over 12 years younger than you.


AFPS 05 - Widow's rights on death of spouse after retirement from the military (cause of death non-attributable to the MoD):

- Spouse/Civil Partner's/Partner's Pension Normally around 62.5% of the pension you were receiving in retirement. Reduces if you are not married at the time you transfer, and your partner is over 12 years younger than you. 5 yr guarantee of income if you die early in retirement.

[Down 4 Reprogram]

Stanley, Ginseng et al

As promised, I spoke to Pensions Glasgow this morning, and after getting them to recheck the pensions regulations they now agree with the advice given to Stanley - it would have been nice if they had done this at the beginning.

I was one of the first to question the accuracy of the online pensions calculator, but I must now accept that it is correct in its calculations.

I wholeheartedly apologise to all readers if my comments have added to the fog of confusion which surrounds this important area.

D4R

[Biggus]

DaveyBoy

Many thanks for the information you provided and the effort you went to. It confirms what I was eventually able to discover from the MoD pensions website!



Ginseng

In the case of the RAF News article it was more a case of what they left out. Anyway, thanks to DaveyBoy your question has been overtaken by events. Sorry for the delay in replying, but I am currently in a location where internet access is a lot more restrictive than at home!

[Stanley Eevil]

Down 4 Reprogram

Thanks for your post. The only possible source of confusion remaining is whether Flt Lt pilots who assimilate to the PA Spine in future years at age 38 (or 40?), who were obviously never formerly Specialist Aircrew, still have reserved rights to the Spec Aircrew Flt Lt `base` pension rates. If they do - great! BUT, if they don`t do they fall onto the ground branch Flt Lt pension tables and get the higher OF2 (1.044/day) enhancement rate to compensate?
I `ve been able to clarify my own position (ex Spec Aircrew), but for the guys joining the PA Spine NOW I think it`s a question well worth asking!

[Topofclimb]

Well I've signed up for AFPS05 as i think I'll be better off! Think being the operative word.

[Down 4 Reprogram]

JSP764 – AFPS05 says:

“0313. Early payment of preserved pension with actuarial reduction. A
member who is not entitled to the immediate payment of a pension may apply for
immediate payment of an actuarially reduced pension, even if he is in receipt of
EDP, provided that:
(a) he is a deferred member who has reached the age of 55, or
(b) he is a pension credit member and has reached the age of 60.

The application to AFPAA must be in writing and the sum payable is determined
after consultation with the scheme actuary, who, in the case of a deferred member,
will take into account any inverse commutation which might have been applied
for in accordance with para 0339-0343. The decision becomes binding on the member
only after he has seen and accepted the actuary’s figures.”

This suggests that you could PVR and leave before age 55, then draw an EDP and reduced pension between 55 and 65.

Anyone looked into this or been given examples of how much the preserved pension would be reduced by if you were to draw it 10 years early at age 55? Also what would the effect be on the pension lump sum normally paid at 65?

D4R

[Ginseng]

Yes, the scheme rules allow that scenario. The actuarial tables are not published anywhere to my knowledge, so the only way you can obtain a figure is to make the application. Bearing in mind that you would be asking for your pension to come into payment up to 10 years early, you should expect a very significant downward adjustment of the rate. Remember also that this would be for life; your pension would not be restored at 65. There is no cost to you in asking the question, as you do not have to sign up until you have seen the Actuary's offer. As for the affect on lump sum, I haven't found the answer yet, but I will keep looking.

Regards

Ginseng

[Ginseng]

The answer to your question on lump sum:

Statutory Instrument 2005 No 438, Part D, Rule D4, para 6:

"If a member exercises the option under this rule, the amount of the lump sum to which he becomes entitled is first calculated as mentioned in rule D.2(4) or, as the case may be, rule D.3(5) and then the amount is reduced by such amount as the Secretary of State determines after consultation with the Scheme actuary."

Hence, yes the lump sum is also actuarially reduced.

Hope that clears it up. Probably not what you were hoping to hear. Sorry.

Regards

Ginseng

[PlasticCabDriver]

Gents etc, tried all day to get sense out of PMA etc with no luck, and too many pages here to trawl through at this time of night, I have a simple question:

Do PA still have the option of 6 month notice to leave with an immediate pension under AFPS 05, or has that been replaced by the EDP scheme?

[Hueymeister]

When is D-Day for us in the light blue to make up our minds?

[OKOC]

Hueymaistre,

20th Jan 2006 according to scrolling news today.

[Ginseng]

Simple Rules:

Leave from AFPS05 before age 55 (unless being invalided out):- you leave with an EDP until age 65.

Regards

Ginseng

[DaveyBoy]

I thought I remembered hearing somewhere that regardless of when your return had to be in by, you could still change your mind up to April 1st if you got a letter to wherever it needed to go to in time, or am I making it up?

[D-IFF_ident]

I understand we now have until 31 Mar 06? Regardless, is anyone else in a similar position to this:

30something, don't know if you're going to be offered promotion or assimilation?

If you transfer to AFPS05 and don't get offered promotion or assimilation then you stand to lose a lot of money.

If you don't transfer, but then get promoted or assimilated and stay until you're 55, then you stand to lose a lot of money.

The problem is, you can't possibly know your future and the offer to transfer cannot be answered without an element of risk.

Personally, I think there should be an open offer to transfer should your terms of service change at any time in the future.

In the meantime, here is a suggestion for anyone else who is still undecided and wants to keep their options open:



Dear Sir,

OFFER TO TRANSFER TO AFPS 05

Thank you for the offer to transfer from AFPS 75 to AFPS 05. Unfortunately I do not have enough information available to make an informed decision at this time. In particular, I need to know the details of any future offer to change my terms of service before making the right choice to fit my personal circumstances.

I elect to defer my decision until I know how my career will progress.

Sincerely,

D-IFF_ident

:}

[DP Harvey]

I might be wrong, but we are not asked to make a choice from a neutral standpoint, per sec. We are simply invited to join the new scheme by diverting from the default path, which is AFPS75. If an individual doesn't return the acceptance letter before the deadline (which appears to moving the right) the AFPAA have the right to take the view that he is not accepting the offer and intends to remain on AFPS75. Its the same principle as binning a double glazing deal in a mailshot. Therefore, if you "elect to defer" your decision you are effectively acknowledging receipt of the offer and then turning it down. You might get a return phone call or a letter to confirm that your reply was to decline the once only offer.

[Ginseng]

The redundancy scheme terms for AFPS05, which will apply from 6 Apr 06, have been published in Statutory Instrument 2006 No 55, "The Armed Forces Redundancy Scheme Order 2006".

Go to http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2006/20060055.htm to see an online copy.

Details are as expected, with the addition of a statutory cap on the redundancy lump sum at 50% of relevant earnings for a person who is made redundant when already entitled to count at least 40 years reckonable service for the purposes of AFPS05 (see Article 8).

Regards

Ginseng