Pilot shortage hits BA.

[Hot Wings]

Seems like LCG and the Prince of Darkness are having a bit of a panic, as BA cancel flights due to a shortage of pilots. Sadly, BA pilots have had enough of their professionalism being taken for granted, whilst other employee groups are rewarded for walking off the job, etc...

The failure of Flight Ops management to address any of the BA pilot's concerns, coupled with recent unrealistic schedules, appears to have resulted in a withdrawal of goodwill, eg. not answering phones on days off.

Interesting times ahead I suspect.

[Frank Poncherello]

I heard they will be requiring 4/500 pilots over the next few years,.......... just a rumour though,..........

FP

[MrAnon]

BA Pilots are gettng very switched on at avoiding forced draft, which is being used way beyond the agreement. This is pissing BA off no end.

BA are using a variety of methods to catch pilots in the force draft net. These include:

1. Calling you from ops staff personal mobiles.
2. FCDMs Acars-ing a/c and asking you to call them ASAP.
3. Dispatchers asking you to call Ops / FCDM urgently.

It appears from the BALPA forum (which I can see occasionally) that BA think the pilots are working to rule. This is due to the above avoidance of FD and a new 'Laminated Card' that spells out the industrial limits (as opposed to CAA limits). The card has been widely distributed and left in flight decks and ops areas. Pilots are learning that they can get off the a/c at the end of their industrially agreed limit, and very few are working to the CAA limits anymore.

BALPA say they have not organised a work to rule, but the pilots are getting more switched on all the time. Apparently the latest craze is for a 'Pay as you Go' mobile that only BA have the number for. Hence you know if it's them ringing.

I dont think that the dir of flt ops (LCG?) has made the pilots happy by calling them 'unprofessional'. Seems to have pissed a few guys off. Fair Cop.

[maxy101]

Nice to see the pilots/BALPA taking a leaf out of the CC/BASSA's book. Maybe they'll start getting the same kind of respect/remuneration that the CC get.

[normal_nigel]

Guys

I'm sure our methods of avoiding forced draft (of course everyone outside BA knoes what that is) are very interesting to other airline's employees, but do we have to air our internal tactics on an internet forum?

[maxy101]

Lets remember it is NOT a requirement to always answer your home/mobile telephone, but it is a requirement to come in when BA force draft you. (Apart from SW's opinion on the -400 fleet that pilots can refuse draft if it means they will approach 900 hrs later in the year)

[Sonic Cruiser]

For someone who doesn't work for BA what is Forced draft?

[Capt Pit Bull]

Someone from a bidline fleet can give you a better definition I expect, but as I understand it the company can require you to work on a day off, the only barrier being that they have to contact you.

Hence, having a 'work only' phone line or mobile allows you to answer your 'normal' phone for social reasons without worrying that it is work demanding you turn up on an originally rostered day off.

CPB

[Carnage Matey!]

A day off or multiple days off. Its not uncommon to force draft people for three days trips on short haul. Obviously long haul trips are all multi-day. I'm just keeping my phone switched off these days!

[Diesel]

Draft is overtime. Someone phones you up and asks if you want to work extra day/s for extra cash.

Forced draft is overtime but with no element of choice. Meant to be used only in exceptional circumstances. BA calls pilot, says you're working tomorrow for x days, no choice at all. You are obliged to do the work, irrespective of any arrangements you have made.

Airbus and 777 particularly vulnerable. Obviously if BA can't get hold of you, they can't force you to work, and you get to enjoy the prearranged Christmas/birthday/weekend etc...

Pilots have become very good at avoiding the dreaded call and so BA has been left cancelling a number of flights.

[maxy101]

If they started paying decent rates of pay, then pilots would go in and cover the extra work. At the moment, by the time you take Gordons' 40 odd % off, it isn't worth giving up a day of your life.

[Shuttleworth]

Well said . Frankly if the rate £££ was realistic then LCG , PD and DW wouldn't have the headache.

Precise figures are; minimum payment per day 4.5 hrs payable, draft element is 1.5 of that . For a new joiner (and lets face it it's the new guys who get all the stress here), it's probably £250 gross, £150 nett.

In other words, totally ****.

You couldn't get a cleaner or labourer to work for £150 a day - Well not in my area. BUT BA, expect a First officer to rush in and help out for exactly that!

The outcome, is that it creates a LOT of bad feeling.

As has been mentioned above - in previous years it used to be a reasonable sum , especially for long haul guys - but now it's a real problem for new joiners.

If any of you are thinking of joining BA then be aware;
(i) It IS PART of your contractural obligations, saying no will lead immediately to a nasty call from a manager and a threat of suspension. ( do your really need the hassle?)
(ii) Thanks to the stupid and negligent lack of foresight of BA managers there is an ACUTE pilot shortage at the moment. ( they mistakenly thought type rated 777 and A320 pilots would beat a path to their door when recruitment started a bout 7 months ago.)
There is a lot of force draft around. This week several flights were cancelled due to an Airbus pilot shortage. This shortage and lack of planning from arrogant pompous managers has a big deleterious impact on our passengers.
Sadly, BA can no longer attract applicants. Apparently Air Lingus have a surplus of pilots who will be flying for BA ( on loan ) later this year.
(iii) They (Flight managers) WILL use dirty tricks to get hold of you. As stated above. For example they have been known to leave a voice mail asking you to ask you to call a duty manager . ( Ie not the usual current ops ) When you call in, BANG, you get force drafted.
(iv) It affects junior guys more than senior pilots because they start from the bottom of the list.
(v) If you join BA this will affect you. Excuses such as Weddings, Christenings, Birthday dinners, Concert tickets are of no use. BA only see things from their point of view.
(vi) As a junior guy remember that BA has a preference bidding system, You will already be working every weekend. If you do get a weekend off then get drafted ( drafting is most common on weekends) you will be mightily upset!

All airlines, at times, expect you to work on a day off. Some pay fair compensation , others don't . In all cases you can decline if you choose.

The difference is; at BA YOU ARE CONTRACTURALLY BOUND TO WORK if req'd.

[ebbr2]

changed my mind

[M.Mouse]

I am astounded that some half-wit has chosen to start airing what is really only of concern to those within BA!

Shuttleworth, your post is so full of inaccuracies, unfounded generalisations and plain untruths that it is not worth even attempting a response, apart from to say that you are divorced from reality if you think that £150 nett for a junior pilot's day's work is poor pay.

[Say again s l o w l y]

£150 for a an 'extra' days work, is pretty crappy. I think you'll find that most decent airlines pay a bit more than that.

It doesn't matter if the crew is a 'junior' pilot (what is that by the way?) as if they aren't there, the flight doesn't go, no matter how 'senior' the other crew member.

How can you be 'forced' to work on a day off?

[Justbelowcap]

You can't be forced to work on your day off. It's against UK employment law AND most certainly against the EU Human Rights legislation. A collective bargaining agreement like BLR's can't overrule an individuals rights to UK legal protection.

I suggest that anybody who has been force drafted sends an Email to their FM to ask if force drafting is legal. Also a letter to BALPA asking the same question. It would be very interesting to see how BA/BALPA respond.

[4468]

Then again,at least BA does PAY for working a day off, so at least it's not stuck in the feudal dark ages like your 'major' eh?

[Firestorm]

BALPA respond? They are so spineless, it's beyond belief!

[normal_nigel]

Yes and of course Emirates is all sunshine and roses.

How's the management piss taking going or your pencilled in rosters?

How's your union representation going?

[Shuttleworth]

Hello MMouse!
Now MM (who appears to post like some kind of pilot manager ) said ;I am astounded that some half-wit has chosen to start airing what is really only of concern to those within BA!

Hot Wings had good reasons for airing this. There have been lots of cancellations this week. Some ppruners may have been severely inconvenienced along with regular passengers. Now Flight Ops Mgt are starting a PR war. They claim it’s BALPA members working to rule. The truth is that they have totally screwed up the recruitment and fleet planning process. Some ppruners don’t have access to the BA BALPA board and it’s important that they can read the real facts. Hot Wings did the right thing.

By the way, BA’s onerous conditions of employment are of interest to some guys on Pprune because hundreds applied for jobs here. BA are unique in having the ability to suspend you if you don’t work on a day off. It may not be a PPRUNE rumour/news – but it’s certainly worth knowing.

Shuttleworth, your post is so full of inaccuracies, unfounded generalisations and plain untruths that it is not worth even attempting a response, apart from to say that you are divorced from reality if you think that £150 nett for a junior pilot's day's work is poor pay.
You'd have to be more specific here MMouse. I haven't tried to mislead anyone. Just the facts.

I agree with Maxy 101, say again slowly and others, and certainly do think 150 nett is not a fair payment for working on a day off. If you think its fair, as you say, then I suggest (i) You have severely misunderstood the responsibilities of the job and (ii) Not read all the other factors




Someone said
“As an aside I can't see why anyone would want to join BA these days, it used to be the place to be, but no more.”

That sums it up nicely!

By the way, that stupid comment about taxes and feeding starving people in Africa needs deleting fast!

[ifleeplanes]

Even Ryanair pay more than £150 and you can turn it down!:eek:

I shall duck for cover now....lol ;)

[Globaliser]

Can a lowly SLF please ask two questions?
1. If you are force drafted for a day, do you get another day off in lieu at some stage or is this an extra day's work?
2. Do I understand it right that the pay system at BA is salary plus "extras" (probably not the right word for it) and that the £250/£150 is one of those "extra" payments for working the additional day when force drafted?

Sorry to be nosy, but if a flight gets canx on me because of a tech crew shortage it's more comforting to know what the underlying causes are.

[unwiseowl]

If people don't want the £150, isn't it obvious that it's not enough? Everyman has his price. Mine is rather more than that!

[Say Mach Number]

Surprised at what i have read about forced days off at BA. Even our lot at Ryanair haven't come up with that one. I hope they are not reading this thread.

At Ryanair think a day off payment stands at £230 net and if you work the longest day you get £185 net so in total £415 in your pocket.

Personally I still think its not enough and there is no forced working. Got asked the other day said no. No biggy.

As a member of BALPA please dont tell me they agreed to that when in negotiation with BA management. Doesnt instill me with confidence if they ever get in at our place.

[Shuttleworth]

Ifleeplanes... exactly ! Even O leary pays more.

Globaliser ... That's the problem . If they contact you ( and some of the ways of avoiding this are not as easy as people think...) then if you refuse they get very aggressive and suspend you .

Unwise Owl, getting flight ops management to pay a more realistic sum is the fastest way to solve this but its not likely.
They won't even pay 10p to address it .
They would rather call the pilots unfrofessional and lie about the issues.

The DFO LCG said it's the worst thing to happen to BA pilots in 30 years!

[Conan The Barber]

Just to give you a further idea of what the options are at other airlines:

If we work on a day off we can choose between

1% of the annual salary plus another day off

Or

2 days off


Or we can just say no.

[behind_the_second_midland]

Lets put a little perspective on the money

The minimum for a day draft is 6.75 hours at you hourly rate. Now asuming your hourly rate is for a pp1 FO is £37. That is £250 so £150 net. Not great but thats for the lowest paid pilots in the company on shorthaul (pay point 1).


How many of those do we have?

I have just done a 3 day draft trip which grossed at about £1800 and I am a fairly junior Captain.

BTSM

[Shuttleworth]

And to put that in perspective ... to be a junior Captain (SH ) here it will now take 15 or 17 years, unlike the 3 or 4 at other employers.
Don't forget BTSM this thread ( Hot Wings will add something here) was started to warn applicants about some of the Victorain work practices here.

[Climb Limited]

How can anyone be forced to give up a Day Off?, it's absurd. The LOCO I work for presently get upset if they believe you are 'refusing a duty' but the whole idea that I'm going to be in trouble with the management if I refuse to give up my off-duty is unheard of and fills me with horror. Is there no protection in the 'agreement for service' type document?

How often does this sort of thing happen anyway?

[Kirkwall]

Firestorm,

When you say BALPA are spineless, I assume you are referring to the volunteer representatives who give up a huge amount of their own time to do their best for their work collegues. If you aren't happy with their performance, why don't you put yourself forward for election and show them how it should be done. You could also stand as a representative on the NEC and be one of the small numer of pilot volunteers who are effectively the management team of BALPA. Yes, BALPA doesn't always get it right and due to the highly competitive nature of the industry, there are many opportunities for managment to set one group of pilots against another, but I am certainly comforted to know that fore every BALPA setback, there are many more victories small or large which generally improve our overall terms and conditions. There are 200 volunter reps working on your behalf, they can't all be spineless. If you believe that they are, take the plunge and have a go yourself.
If not, then at least don't come out with the usual excuses of "I would if it wasn't for being busy with the kids, stamp collecting club meetings etc etc...." Reps have lives too, support them or remove them, but make sure they are replaced by yourself or someone equally as "tough".

Say Mach Mumber,

If you were to get BALPA recognition in FRA, YOUwould be BALPA, ably assisted by a full time negotiator (the ones that I have had dealings with recently are superb if undepaid, under-appreciated and overworked). All you would have to do is put yourself forward for the Company Council. If you do not like BALPA, pick another organsation, but please understand, you and your collegues will be in the front line, will take the flack from both sides and will have a significant workload. Try it though, it is extremely interesting satisfying and occasionally even enjoyable.

I suspect the first item on the table from managment would be a proposal for compulsory day off working. How would you negotiate your way round that? I understand that it might be a little difficult in FRA.

And no, I am not a BA BALPA rep.

[AdrianShaftsworthy]

Personally wouldn't volunteer to be a BALPA rep as I have absolutely no management aspirations!!! ;)

[maxy101]

Kirkwall Some of us have been reps and seen the cosy little chats that go on "over the road" between guys that were on the same Hamble/Prestwick course. From my limited observations, the interests of the line pilot were not always being fought by our hard working reps. There are, I'm sure various reasons for this, running from management/training aspirations to people that are not quite up to the job. Personally, I didnt feel that I was making a difference and stopped. I believe that there are many other reps that realise that they are on a very cushy number (some reps are getting half a months work in BALPA credit) with no reserve and very little for the line pilot to show for it. Perhaps the microscope should be turned on the "underperformers" . After all, they DO get paid to do the job. They are given credit at their hourly rate. Some of us have to go to work and fly aeroplanes to achieve that. A "senior" rep that say, for instance, takes 40 hrs BALPA credit a month on PP 16 as a Captain is essentially being paid (40x 90) i.e 3600 quid a month to be a BALPA rep. That's a lot of money for what we get back. Perhaps we should go down the road of professional full time reps?

[Kirkwall]

Me neither, however there is nothing wrong with it (after a cooling off period of course). After all, a rep is likely to get far more exposure to IR issues, experience and training in a couple of years than most junior managers.

It is quite normal in other industries for managers to have had experience as staff representatives. Is it really a bad thing?

The important thing is to have turnover. Reps can only do so much in their own time. If more people stepped forward to do their bit for shorter periods of time, more might be acieved and those who have been banging their heads against walls for many years on your behalf could take an occasional break.

Fancy having a go yourself? You could always sign a letter giving away your rights to ever move into managment if it bothers you so much.
personally, I think a two year cooling off period is perfectly reasonable.
There are some reps who might even make good managers ands one or two who should probably sit on company Boards. Now there's an interesting concept.

[behind_the_second_midland]

Climb

It is covered by BLR's (bid line rules) which mainline pilots work to as covered in our MOA (memorandum of agreement).

Draft assign as it is called was designed for extreme circumstances and in my 11 years in BA has been seldom used.

However for a variety of reasons, not least that BA are under established, there are now problems covering work at certain times of every month and this DA is being used on a monthly basis to keep the operation going.

It is a very divisive system. The guys hate it and the ops guys hate it but it was never designed to be used in this way.

However, if you have half a brain avoiding the call if fairly easy, as we are now wise to the tricks BA have resorted to to contact us.

For every trick, we have an answer.

Still some people blindly answer the phone when they know its going on and then whinge when they get caught.

[beernice]

May I ask how many hours an average BA pilot does per year?

[Diesel]

Don't know about an average overall, but guys on the 747-400/777 all hover around 850-900 flying hrs per year, airbus guys tend to be very similar, perhaps 800-850. 757/767 seems to be lower, although I daresay that is a temporary situation.

[TopBunk]

Beernice,

If I were to hazard a guess, the average line pilot in longhaul 825-890 hours average, in shorthaul 700-800 hours - this without overtime.

Note: excludes management, BALPA reps, trainers etc

[Carnage Matey!]

Shorthaul Airbus LHR about 775 hrs flying (twice that in duty hours)
Longhaul 747 LHR about 850 - 900 hrs flying.
Legal annual maximum 900hrs.

[M.Mouse]

As at 31st May there were exactly 101 pilots, in LH, projected to exceed 820 hours in the preceding 12 months.

It is also worthy of note that those hours include time asleep in the bunk.

BA employs around 3000 pilots and the AVERAGE hours worked quoted in above posts are, like the rest of this thread either wishful thinking or selective in what is being quoted.

Somebody accused me of being a manager, I do so love that hoary old accusation wheeled out when someones biased ramblings are disagreed with.

One further point the most junior pilot would nett. £150 for a one day draft trip. A plumber might earn more but would the plumber's apprentice?

[One Step Beyond]

A plumber might earn more but would the plumber's apprentice?

An FO is not an apprentice.

[Carnage Matey!]

Wishful thinking indeed? I logged 725 hours three years ago, 750 hours two years ago and 775 hours last year on the Airbus without overtime and without exceeding CAP significantly. No time in the bunks either.

Whether or not you think bunk time should be discounted is irrelevant. The CAA say it isn't and thats all that counts. You're also being a bit misleading with your description of the 820 hour projections. The greater masses might like to know that 80hrs+ flying per month is the standard on long haul, so simply by flying a normal line those 101 would exceed the yearly maximum this month. Do you have any figures for the number of pilots between 750 and 819 hours on May 31st? No, didn't think so.

[leander]

Last year I did over 800 hours in short haul.

None of it was asleep in the bunk.

Money has absolutely nothing to do with the forced draft discussion - it's about having time off work to relax, unwind and share your life with your family ( instead of down route with some arsey tw*t who reckons 'a First Officer is an apprentice' )

Those concerned about money have the facility to volunteer for the extra work and empty the pot.

[M.Mouse]

Do you have any figures for the number of pilots between 750 and 819 hours on May 31st? No, didn't think so.

Look through the back issues of the LH fleet magazine. The graphs were there to see.

The AVERAGE is not as high as being touted here. You said you guessed the average for LH was 850-900 hours, it isn't.

leander

Last year I did over 800 hours in short haul.

Your claim is that that figure is average, high, low?

Ignoring your obvious lack of ability to use English instead of crude profanity, the comparison I was making was that a newly qualified FO is, by definition, inexperienced. No doubt you think all new pilots deserve to be paid the same as a senior Captain?

[Diesel]

Of course the FO is less experienced. Point accepted.

However there is a world of difference between the qualified FO and a plumber's apprentice. It's a very poor choice of comparison indeed.

Bunk time is counted by CAA mandate. Like it or not. It's also irrelevant to the discussion of the principle of forced draft. Of course I could ask if the captain is on rest and something goes wrong, is he no longer responsible?....

However in an attempt not to get sidetracked....

The point is, irrespective of arguments about how many hours have been worked and what they were doing at the time, is it accpetable to be called and told you MUST do overtime, irrespective of any family commitments/arrangements etc. I have an annual event I attend in mid summer for one weekend. This year, after failing to get any useful leave, I succeeded in getting the weekend off through bidding. I have waited all year for this chance to meet up with old friends and bought tickets to travel to the appointed place. Do you think I will accept a call from BA anytime in the preceding week or so?

[TopBunk]

MMouse
It is also worthy of note that those hours include time asleep in the bunk.
Why exactly?

[Kilo-club SNA]

Regardles of weather you think £150 is resonable for a days work it certainly isn't enough to motivate the company to get the planing right in the first place.

If the company payed a reasonable amount of money for days of work, a few pilots would most likely be interested in taking the extra cash, thus letting the rest keep onnenjoying their spare time.

Also, the company would quickly learn to plan better, if you plan wrong it's gotta hurt a bit. that's what's calling learning by misstakes. There is most likely a lot of problems that could be solved with better planing.

that's my 2cents

[leander]

MM

I make no 'claim' for my hours - I have flown to CAP all year - my bank has reduced and I have done in excess of 800. Make of it what you will.

Many of our 'junior' pilots are immensely experienced operators from other professional organisations ( including numerous ex-captains). Junior need not necessarily equate to 'apprentice', unless you have a particular penchant for overbearing, pompous and pejorative generalities.

I have checked my post for any reference to comparative pay scales but alas I was unsuccessful. Would you care to explain what leads you to presume that I think that 'all new pilots deserve to be paid the same as a senior Captain?'

[Dirty Mach]

hmm, recently fell at the second hurdle trying to join the big boys... Have I had a lucky escape? with Wicked Willie taking the helm later this year, maybe I have!

[M.Mouse]

Why exactly?
Because before we all start whingeing about how hard it is flying 900 hours I think a distinction between 900 hours SH and 900 hours including several hundred fast asleep in a bunk should be made. Or is sleeping equally tiring as being awake at the controls?

Many of our 'junior' pilots are immensely experienced operators from other professional organisations ( including numerous ex-captains)
Which is why I said 'newly qualified'.

Dirty Mac

Life in BA may not be perfect but I know of very few people who actually leave and very few with real life experience of other occupations or other flying jobs who would agree with the more vociferous whingers who really have no idea what they actually have.



I shall bow out of this one now but feel free to continue the abuse, I will read it.

[TopBunk]

MMouse
Because before we all start whingeing about how hard it is flying 900 hours I think a distinction between 900 hours SH and 900 hours including several hundred fast asleep in a bunk should be made. Or is sleeping equally tiring as being awake at the controls?
1. But the CAA stipulate that all hours count towards the 900 max.
2. 'Several hundred fast asleep' - have you ever flown longhaul - I have. If you have you must be one of the few - most guys I know are lucky to get more than 1-2 hours sleep on a SIN-LHR. On the 777 most operations are East Coast USA, 2 crew, no bunk rest. Therefore 850 hours = 850 hours flying.
3. The scientifically derived CAA limits are just that - a MAXIMUM, not a target.
4. I agree that 900 hours SH vs 900 hrs LH are different animals, but SH don't fly 900 hours and there is no jet lag involved.

If you don't see that .....

[leander]

MM

Your 'apprentice' reference was to 'junior' pilots.

'Newly qualified' only appeared after attention was drawn to your pomposity.

Back to the thread - this is about less work, not more money.

[Seat1APlease]

OK guys let's see now:-

Get yourself one of those premium rate numbers, you know the ones that cost about two quid per minute, then buy an answering machine and switch it to answer only mode i.e. it plays the message tape but doesn’t give an opportunity of leaving a message. Then record your message in your best PA trained voice speaking nice and S-L-O-W-L-Y as follows:-

Hello this is Captain Nigel Smallpiece (or as appropriate), unfortunately Doris and myself are not able to take your call at the moment as we are out with our son Nigel junior and our daughter Bella who has now grown to an altitude of five feet. We have taken Rover the dog, Felix the cat and chirps the budgie with us, the weather today is overcast with a possibility of showers, thank you for calling.

But seriously, Draft in the new agreement (1999/2000) was not meant to cover overtime nor underestablishment, it was to cover rare unforseen events such as grounding of one aircraft type or flu epidemics, it was only supposed to be used infrequently and both sides understood that clearly. They are trying it on, say NO!

[Max Angle]

Jeez, didn't realise that you can be forced to work on a day off. Whatever moans we have in bmi on the relative merits of our agreement to BA's at least we have in black and white:

"Rostered days off: A pilot may refuse to be called out on a rostered day off without prejudice"

Cut and dry, they sometimes ask but a polite no means that you will not be bothered again.

[leander]

Max A

Although we have all known about FD as a concept I'm not sure it was ingrained in our collective consciousness as a regular life spoiler until quite recently.

In similar fashion we have all known about our contractual obligations ( as a concept ) but have always done our bit to keep the show on the road.

The increase in FD has forced an increased interest and awareness of our contract - leading to the 'Laminated Card', less running and more unanswered calls from 'number withheld'.

The question remains - if my friends and I are working to a CAP of about 90 hours pcm we either have a load of skivers hidden in our midst, or a shortage of flight crew. The debate continues.

Hopefully our respective CC's will learn from our respective woes and not let these things happen more than once / get worse across the UK industry.

[MR SEABASS]

As a mil pilot looking to cross over into the airline world, these posts are of great help. Us mil chaps don't have the chance to hear all the inns and outs of each company. So I personally am grateful that people are willing to point out the negative sides to each contract. Being forced to work unrostered days is an important factor, when it is this sort of thing that that we leave the military to avoid.
It is then down to the individual to make an informed choice (if a choice of employers is available at all!).

[Diesel]

Mr SB

Forced draft was previously very rare. It was written in to the agreement to cover for the extreme and unusual. It is only recently that it has become such an issue. Trying to be positive, BALPA and BA are obliged to jointly seek a way to modify arrangements to return us to the previous situation where FD was such a rarity.

[M.Mouse]

Mr. Seabass

I am afraid that you will get a very distorted view of any compay by listening to the often extreme views of the disaffected few posting anonymously on PPRUNE.

I do not just refer to BA pilots either.

The issue of 'force draft' has arisen because it was rarely used. Until recently I was 'force drafted' once in 18 years. Opinions vary as to the current cause of force drafting being used more than infrequently but overall the numbers are very small and the issues causing the problem will be addressed by the joint BA/BALPA scheduling committee.

I am probably correct in saying that we have the most stable and sacrosanct rostering system in the UK.

If you truly are looking to leave the military then PM me and I will give you an honest account of what can realistically be expected - warts and all.

[Carnage Matey!]

Yes, you could fly as M.Mouses apprentice!:D

[wiggy]

Carnage Matey

ROFL.......

[woodpecker]

I do remember being rung up offering a draft on a Saturday morning (ETD 0500) to fly an empty B777 to Cardiff. Reporting time 0330.

The return to LHR was to be by a crew transit van.

The credit as it was longhaul was 3 hours.

At the time, after tax it was worth £140.

I did not comment to rosters on the financial gain but refused on the grounds that I had JCB driver turning up at 0900 to dig some foundations.

He finished at 1130 and took £150 for cash!!

[wiggy]

Hi woodpecker

Not nitpicking, just clarifying for the sake of those not familiar with the dreaded Bidline Rules......

If BA "Draft" you, you can turn it down,

If BA "Force Draft" you, you must accept.

In theory BA will offer Draft initially to pilots in a defined ( by the Rules) order. If no one accepts BA will then Force Draft, again, in theory, in a defined order...................( which means the first sucker to pick up the telephone gets nailed)

that's the theory

[woodpecker]

Correct, "that's the theory"

If you go back to the start of bidline as we know it now there were many pilots on standby (on the stack) at home and at the airport. It was quite acceptable if you were at the "bottom of the stack" to go off and play golf (with pager).

But with time BA (in their wisdom) reduced the numbers on standby and started to use the draft facility as standby cover.

If one has the right number of crews per aircraft, together with sensible rostering (not max duty with min rest, together with min turnrounds) it could work.

Odd "drafts on the day" were cheaper than many pilots "on the stack". However BA would ignore the "draft from volunteers from the top", then, if no takers "force-draft" from the bottom of the seniority. They had their own lists of "helpful" pilots that lived locally and were able to be "drafted on the day" at very short notice. Human nature I suppose, but not within the "rules".

However, as the workload increased the number of "volunteer drafts" (starting at the top) decreased such that rosters having had no "volunteers" following numerous telephone calls had to resort to "force drafting" (from the bottom). In theory the most junior pilot would be contacted offering a "draft", and if he refuses the offer is then hit with a "force draft". If you were near the bottom, and had refused an "offer" then keep away from the phone the next time it rings 'cos it may well be a force draft!

There were stories of pilots installing an extra phone (BA only required one number) for work calls. One chap even had a red phone! If it rang and you wanted to talk to BA then answer it, if not don't!

Although amusing the tales of wives answering phones and suggested hubby was "off fishing" were numerous. Rosters even resorted, once the wife answered, to suggesting "BA here, just to let you know you husband has got stuck in JFK" to which she (off he guard) replied "but he is next to me here!!". "Fine, in that case we wish to force draft him". Now we see modern equivalents in the form of "caller id" and "call barring" taking the place of the well trained wife!

Pilots are a reasonable bunch, and will "go the extra mile" for the company as long as they don't feel the company is taking the p*ss. At the moment they feel they are.

Just a last thought, scheduling is always difficult under bidline at the beginning of each month with trips carrying in from the previous month clashing with the first trip(s) of the new month. When half term/ bank holiday weekends are also at the beginning of the month it can be desperate. June is one such month. BALPA approached the company months ago pointing out the problem and suggesting they reduce the number of trips overlapping into June, together with reducing SEPT, Simulator, route checks etc for the first few days of the month. The suggestions were ignored. BA are now paying the price with cancelled trips.

[maxy101]

I wonder if another angle to all this "disruption" is that BA are looking to scrap Bidline. What a great opportunity for the company to approach more than reasonable BALPA and its very reasonable reps and suggest "Bidline isn't working" "we need to bring the pilots into the 21st Century" "We'll run any new system in parallel for 6 months" "We guarantee that you wont be worse off" Interesting times ahead, I feel.

[Airbus Girl]

If they do get hold of you and it is a day off then why can't you just say you've just had 3 pints of beer? After all, you're allowed to do whatever you like on a day off...

[Diesel]

Because they are not going to be drafting you for that day but the next one,two or three days...

[Suggs]

Never been FD'ed in 5 years. Have turned down draft on the odd occasion. Never seen anyone work to rule. Have seen people work to the CAA legal limits. Not surprised if were short of pilots. We are fairly paid. We do work hard. Last time I did draft it was worth about 500 notes a day.

Bottom Line

[wiggy]

maxy101

IMHO there seems to have been a change of mood amongst the BA BALPA Reps. Historically yes, there were perhaps too many agreements made down at the lodge or at a "College" reunion. However since the flushing out of one high profile Rep ( to management) last year and the quiet retirement of one or two others I reckon BALPA has now got a bit of spine. Hopefully the general membership has got the same.

[flyA380]

I am absolutely against destructive actions, like a wild strike to say something. But it is of MAJOR importance that pilots stick together and speak and act as one. Our unity and professionalism are the only things we can use to negociate AND help our company move ahead.

So indeed: it's definitely (and always) time to show some spine in the talks with management. Respect and be respected, right?
Be reasonable and be treated reasonably, right?

The future's still bright!:ok:

[Dylsexlic]

So, BA Pilots union, what's the objection to employing contract pilots now, then? As can be seen from this thread, BA pilots would prefer not to have forced days. Well, why not use contractors?

Many other airlines do this very successfully and they integrate with permanent full-time staff with no problems. Or I am just being too stupid to even think of suggesting such a dramatic and obviously ridiculous idea? Moaning is more fun than finding solutions!

[Carnage Matey!]

Why not contract out all our jobs and save money? The aim is to get BA to improve starter conditions so that they can recruit people to the Airbus fleet and get the right number of pilots. Contracting out means reduced opportunities for BA pilots (fewer commands available as establishment levels shrink), and does nothing to drive up the base level of remuneration for UK pilots as a whole. Not to mention driving a coach and horses through our scope agreement. The point is moot anyway because the management don't want to pay the high costs associated with contracting out the work, they'd rather just work their own pilots into the ground as its cheaper.

[Diesel]

We have gone from 3500pilots to just under 3000. The company needs to recruit but appears to be having problems attracting pilots to the Shorthaul environment. What does that tell you about the deal on offer?

We all complain about the forced draft, but this is an opportunity to improve the terms and conditions on shorthaul. We are always hearing about the market rate. Well here it is. Can't get enough pilots, make the job more attractive.

Temporary pilots from whatever source allow BA to hide from the market pressures out there and prop up the current situation. Additionally why stop on that fleet? Short of 747 pilots, no problem let's pull in a few from Asia, that would help keep the pay of these pesky pilots down....

One could be forgiven for wondering if the sudden increase in Forced Draft isn't really an attempt to undermine BLR and encourage us to allow BA to pull in cheaper pilots........

[beamer]

No consolation but its the same all the way down the food-chain. All airlines are trying to do more with less relying when push comes to shove on the pilots 'professionalism' to save the day. They don't employ enough, they train them too late when a problem becomes apparent and then when they scrape through another year, the managers take their bonus payments and pat themselves on the back. My company is small fry compared to BA but we do employ 350 pilots operating a mixed Boeing/Airbus fleet and industrial relations are very fragile as a second round of pay negotiations is about to be turned down or so rumour has it !

[Shuttleworth]

Diesel. You have a good point . Well said.

[Airbus Girl]

Airlines are doing OK at the minute. For the last 3 years we've had various "excuses", som real - 9/11, Iraq war, fuel prices.
This year most airlines in the UK are doing OK and this is the time that the pilots need to claw back on their terms and conditions.
In the next couple of years we may see a recession and airlines will be clawing T&Cs back in their direction.
If we don't act now then the future will see even further reductions and degradations of both pay and conditions.
BA is at the top of the chain and if they offered a great deal to new joiners then those airlines lower down the chain would have to pay more to retain people as well.
So I fully support BA pilots in trying to improve their lot.
As for BA's current deal for new joiners, it is SO not worth it! The money is a big cut for many FOs and although the allowances make up for it, you are working more hours than most charter airlines, have a crap pension and the time to command is also a big minus point for many.
Other than new young FOs who are right at the bottom of the seniority lists at other companies, who are they hoping to attract?

[The Greaser]

Airbus Girl

I believe the current deal for BA new joiners is well worth it. I currently earn a decent salary with a low cost, however my take home with BA, even in year 1 will be £800 a month more, and only about £500 a month less than a Captain where I work. The pension is an improvement compared with now and I will be flying no more hours (currently 900 a year) yet have more days off. This is the sector where BA new joiners will come from, as you say probably not so much from the charter airlines.

Regards

[expedite_climb]

Airbus Girl.

Would you mind naming the airlines where "many FO's" earn £3600 or more NET a month (on a months flying) ???

Oh and with a pay bridge for when you get your command ?


Just can't think of that many (Maybe VS); unless you'd been with them a very long time.


Thanks.

[Stu Bigzorst]

Here's my thought process I went through when considering application to BA. I am a SFO for a typical LCC.

Now: £41k + usual fdp package
BA: £42k + usual fdp package

Now: 1.5 years to command
BA: 12-15 (?) years to command.

No thanks! Furthermore, my age (late 30's) is such that I may never get a command (a pal of mine in BA was declined because he only had a year to go.)

Furthermore, I have personally encountered some astonishing pomposity amongst certain BA captains, and I really wouldn't enjoy that.

Finally, I'd forever have a very low seniority, and would have to endure scrag-end rosters and possibly FD!

Thanks, but no thanks. Didn't bother applying. Fine for a 22 year old looking for a long career, but not very attractive for us rated people with an established career.

[Diesel]

Stu

I think you have hit the nail on the head. It's all ok if you are just starting out but BA is after experienced and type rated DEPs. To this group, the long time to command alone undermines the deal.

We hear so much about market forces. Well it works both ways.

[Scottie]

The Greaser, what you failed to mention is that you make more cash and get a few days off more per month but you end up spending it downroute whilst spending loads of time away from home.

Pressure on marriage, seeing your kids etc etc

Great opportunity but no thanks.

If it's such a long time to command why the pressure to recruit experienced DEP's? Surely experience levels in BA aren't that bad?

[wiggy]

Scottie
I believe the idea is the experienced DEPs are recruited to go straight onto the 777 (something to do with having the hours for the ATPL and hence the DEPs are able to do the "heavy" pilot/acting pilot in Command job on the long range sectors). BTW If you fancy some sport and want to open another can of worms you might want to ask why BA don't need/aren't recruiting DEPs direct onto the 747 as well...........

Stu/Diesel
IMHO you are spot on in your assessment.

Rgds all

[Boeing 7E7]

Expedite_Climb

BA is a good airline and still thought of by many as the best in the UK. But the margin by which it beats its best rivals is becoming slimmer as time passes.

The terms and Conditions enjoyed by each new "generation" of pilots it employs is reduced, which is a shame for all of us.

In First Choice Airways, First Officers will routinely take home £3300+ per month and will work 600(ish) hours per year. Which is similar to £3600 for 900 hours a year.

Monarch has a pay bridge on its old contracts, which most pilots are on.

Many pilots in the Charter carriers (FCA, BY, MON, TCX) will be on Final Salary pensions and those that aren't will have 15% or so of a basic salary (higher than BA's basic) into their Money Purchase Pension. BA make up alot of take home pay with non pensionable allowances. It is the low Cost Carriers that get away with 5-7%.

It is of no doubt that compared with the new bread of low cost carriers that the differences in terms and conditions with BA are wider. But they make up for it by offering quick commands.

Taking a global picture where BA are competing, then again they do not offer the terms and conditions that many flag carriers (AF, LF etc) do either.

Don't get me wrong, BA are a very good airline, but smugness will get the better of you if you're not carefull!

[ixion17]

I think we are in danger of looking backwards not forwards as to the reasons for experienced pilots wanting to join BA. Yes the current deal isn't the best ... but, then again pay and conditions could hardly get worse otherwise even less would apply to join and even more would leave (especially now there is no FS pension scheme to look forward to).

So, whilst BA pilots will continue to be worked hard (why should they be different to the rest of the world), pay - being the only quick and easy solution - is likely to improve.

Final point - BA sits on an extraordinarily valuable piece of real estate that is virtually recession-proof. As people have pointed out already, pay isn't the be all and end all, but it really hurts when there isn't any at all.

[Human Factor]

BTW If you fancy some sport and want to open another can of worms you might want to ask why BA don't need/aren't recruiting DEPs direct onto the 747 as well...........

AFAIK, ten DEPs were recruited straight onto the -400. Don't know the whys or wherefores but I would assume they were already type-rated. Suffice to say, there are (more than) sufficient valid internal bids onto it so it's politically easier for BA to type-rate existing employees rather than train new joiners and cause a mutiny. :ouch:

[wheelbarrow]

BOEING 7E7

I work for TCX and am a 5 year FO.

I have done a short time on loan at AMM in 2002, and I can tell you that I NEVER took home £3300 at either AMM or TCX yet.

I work 600 hours a year for TCX and take home about £3000 per month, I pay 5% of salary into my FINAL SALARY pension scheme.

If AMM Fo's earn £3300 per month for a 600 hour year, why are you considering Industrial action at this current time?

Surely all must be rosy in the garden at those pay rates ????

[Hand Solo]

The ten DEPs who went straight to the 400 were A320 rated from bmi! Explain that one away.

[Human Factor]

Errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr???????

I would have typed "Er" but you know what they're like with their bandwidth. In which case, it suggests that a similar arrangement occurred to the last time ('98 ish) when a whole bunch of DEPs said "-400 or nothing".

Plus ca change....

[Boeing 7E7]

Wheel Barrow

Why so prickly?

You wouldn't have taken home £3300 when you were with Amm in 2002 beacause that is 3 years ago. If your take home pay is not near £3300 then accept my appologies. A few nights away from base a month and this figure is easily obtained.

The pilots gripe at FCA at present is about a lifestyle and roster stability that we once enjoyed. Money has not been mentioned.

Pilot numbers: TCX 350 for 24 aircraft, BY 490 for 31 aircraft. FCA 360 for 30 aircraft. If you do the maths it quickly becomes apparent, there is little flex in the system at FCA. The pilot numbers have been significantly higher in the past at FCA.

We don't do the hours, but when things go wrong as they inevitably do, roster stability goes out the window very quickly!

The origional point I was making, relating to the thread topic is that BA do not offer the terms and conditions to new pilots that that their present pilots enjoy. BA's joining conditions are just not that good. The better they are though, the better it will be for new joiners and all the other airlines down the chain. Pilots joining at present will, to some extent be riding the coat tails of those already there.

This is not BA bashing; BA are still the best, but that margin is slimmer now than it has ever been, and one day we may wake to find that BA don't actually offer a better package than their closest rivals when all is considered. That day thankfully is not here yet, but sitting inside BA denying this is smug, and it will get the better of them!

(For those that can get the wrong end of the stick - not all BA pilots are smug)

[wheelbarrow]

Boeing 7E7

I am not prickly.

I see your point that in order to earn more at AMM, you must go touring every month and not be at your base.

And then you spend the extra money on food and drink anyway, so I can see that you are not better off really.

To include ABA allowances whilst talking about charter life, where you are based at one airfield is a little confusing.

If you were MAN or LGW based on your 757 or 320 fleet, I suspect you would be working at main base nearly all the time, so you would not earn the extra you talk about.

Our payscales are identical to yours to nearly the penny, so I think a realistic charter take home figure is approx £3000 per month.

Good luck with your summer, see you in the middle of the night in Turkey I imagine;)

[SR71]

Its not hard to do a CBA to work out whether life at BA over the remainder of your career will leave you better off financially than you'd be if you otherwise stayed where you are.

Take the 24 PP's on the BA pay-scale, work out (depending on your age and what you think NRA/CRA will be when you retire) how long you'll be in the RHS and LHS and whether you'll be SH/MH or LH and add up the totals.

Compare that with a CBA based on your speculated career progression at your present company.

Add a few yearly RPI pay-increases, postulate a few recessions with no pay-increases and at age 34, its still financially in my interests to move from my present company although I won't.

But the break-even point shifts rapidly in favour of your status quo if you're not presently in BA as you approach 40 because the top BA PP's are well into 6 figures which means you're catching up/over-taking at a rapid rate.

Its hardly a de facto BA are better...inspite of the fact that some can't seem to grasp that.

Now add all the intangibles/cost neutral issues like RHS occupancy times, time off, FD, BLR, small company/big company etc etc and make your judgement.

Easy right?

:ok:

[Shuttleworth]

Stu Bigzorst, well said. I'm confident that you made the right choice.

SR71, how can you claim that RHS occupance is cost neutral?
I think time to command has a big impact on job enjoyment and of course nett pay.
Many BA appliacnts/new joiners seem to think its just 10 years to a SH command. Well it may have been in the past , but now it will be 15 or 16 year absolute minimum.

By the way , why do people think a BA new F/O netts £3600???
This is bollox. You will nett £3300.max.

[SR71]

SR71, how can you claim that RHS occupance is cost neutral?


What I mean is that based on a CBA, some will prostitute themselves to (most of) a life in the RHS because ultimately financially, over the duration of a career, life at BA will still net them more cash than their existing status quo.

For someone in their late 30's, it is cost neutral because there is more than one way to arrive at the same financial position - a short time in the RHS, followed by a long time in the LHS if they stay where they are, OR, a long time in the RHS and a short/no time in the LHS at BA.

This is, of course, a choice open to everyone and I have some sympathy for the "If you can get paid in line with your expectations sitting in the RHS, who would want to sit in the LHS?" argument.

But there are others, for whom 20 years in the RHS is too bitter a pill to swallow even if financially they'd be better off by doing so.

You makes your choices and, in this industry more than most (any?) others, you have to live with them.

:ok:

[Stu Bigzorst]

I am sure that, for many, the sole inspiration behind flying is not the cash. Indeed, for those that started in the last 5 years or so it is quite the opposite - you have to have an aversion to the stuff (£83K spent so far, poorer income than my previous job etc).

One of the fundamental motivators is taking on the responsibility of occupying the LHS. I imagine that the type of character that BA are seeking is one who relishes and is more than capable of handling that responsibility.

The thought of joining BA and never achieving that goal is on a par with losing my licence indefinitely.

If BA could offer a good package, with a reasonable or even a quick time to command, then there would be hundreds of us swotting up right now.

Their choice!

[Artificial Horizon]

Just to put a different spin on this, I have recently joined BA, I am young enough to look forward to being able to have a command in my late 30's. The thing that we have to realise is everyone has different reasons, I was offered command with my previous airline, but decided to leave anyway. I really have no interest in command and mainly joined BA because of the range of aircraft that I will end up flying and for other good benefits like staff travel. So it is horses for courses, I am happy not having to think about command for the next 15ish years, others will not be so happy.

[maxy101]

Once again, it seems to be a case of being in the right place at the right time. We've got cadets taking their commands on the 747 and 777 at the age of 36/37 enjoying the 6 figure salaries that go with that. All I will say is that BA probably will be a very good bet for anybody under the age of 30, especially with the potential retirement age increasing next year. However, as previous posters have said, it's not just the money. There is an awful lot of niff-naff in BA that can and does get you down if you let it.

[Cuban_8]

Shuttlworth,

"By the way , why do people think a BA new F/O netts £3600??? This is bollox. You will nett £3300.max."

Well, I'm a recent Eurofleet DEP. And in a regular month, £3300 is definitely NOT my max. Nor is £3600 for that matter. And this also happens to be the case for my DEP mates too...... Mind you, we are working quite hard!

Anyway, as someone has already rightly said, I think our focus is all wrong here. Instead of all the bitching and infighting that we're good at, we should be concentrating on restoring our conditions that have been slowly eroded over recent times. The airlines may have had troubles in the past, but the good times seem to be rolling now. And I don't see any of it coming our way! Or is it just me......

Regards,

Cuban_8

[wiggy]

Cuban_8

Be assured, it's not just you.

[swashnob]

Just to add my two pence to this:

The choice at a well known BA franchise is

1. Say no

2. £460 gross if you want your hours to count towards the industrially aggreed 775 hours plus flight pay.

3. £139.50 per flying hour gross if you don't want it to count towards the hours i.e. a longish flight will drag in £1300+.

AND YOU GET AN ADDITIONAL DAY OFF OWED IN OPTION 2.
:ok: :ok: :ok: :D :D :D

[FRying]

I'm about to come up to London for an assessment day for future employment at BA. From reading up through this thread I wonder whether this is such a good idea...

BA doesn't sound like a regular major in terms of T&Cs and everyday life. I can't see how such a life style being so unaccpetable from a low cost could be more acceptable from a large carrier. At the end of the day, they all make you life as miserable.

Are my doubts founded ? Should I really bother showing up ???

[Human Factor]

Should I really bother showing up ???

Turn up for the experience if nothing else. Make the decision as to whether to join or not after you receive an offer.

[togaroo]

Cuban 8

nice to hear your not slacking with the birdseeders! I can only wish I was getting £3300 net a month!!

YOu know what it is like at the old touring company - more of the same!!

cheers

togaroo

[Cuban_8]

togaroo,

Nice to hear from you mate! I hear that prospect of heavy metal is on the horizon :D?!

Will be in touch,

C_8

[new_nigel777]

Just been told that command time on the 777 fleet may come down to as little as 5 years with the expansion. (Subject to T5 being up and running by 2008). By then I should be earning more than an easyjet captain anyway.

Not such a compelling reason to turn it down?

[maxy101]

New_Nigel777 Who told you that? I would be amazed if it drops below 15 yrs for the next 15 yrs minimum. Especially as BA have said that they wont buy any new aircraft until all their debt is paid off. (so they can finance new aircraft at non junk bond rates)

[new_nigel777]

Are you in BA maxy?

[AdrianShaftsworthy]

Now I know this the P.P. rumour network but come on! Almost spilt my beer when I read that one !:D

[new_nigel777]

new guy=optimist.

I want to believe!

[fortuna76]

I can understand that if you are part of the established order and you have once seen better times, it is logical to complain about things that once were. So far so good.

But to say that BA is not a viable option for DEP is just not true. I work in a small turboprop outfit and I know that just about everyone has applied with BA. I was lucky enough to be invited to the interview, so I am sort of knocking on the front door (awaiting the results btw).

From what I have heard during the assessment, and I have to say that they tell it really as it is, it does not sound that bad. Ok the long time to captaincy is a serious down point. But for the rest.

Pay: I make about 1800 pounds net as a captain so that shouldn´t be a big problem.

Scheduling: I work the JAA max WRR and then have to remind ops about three times a month to reschedule because the intended plan will put me over it.

Pension: Our pension scheme pays out at 65 while we only work till 60. :confused: Company has no idea what I should do in the mean time.

Travel arrangements: We don´t have it

Sector pay: We don´t have it

Duty allowance: It´s a lot less then you would spend.

Again this is just a turboprop outfit and conditions are absolutely not comparable to a BA but I am just trying to point out that for a lot of guys BA is a very very good option. Sorry if I offended anybody with this post.

Cheers.

[maxy101]

Fortuna76..... You're not offending anybody with your post. In fact, I think it speaks volumes. BA is no longer attractive to anybody with a half decent job in aviation, but only to the less fortunate members of the pilot community. You probably will find it a breath of fresh air coming from where you do. The money will certainly be a lot better. BUt you will be away from home an awful lot,and you will, I'm certain get very frustrated at the nif-naf in BA.

NewNigel777....Yep....came from the horses mouth at an OOF day.

[Capt Pit Bull]

New_Nigel

About 140 retirements a year for the forseeable future, puts a new joiner about seniority 2200 ish in 5 years. For that to equate to a definite command would need total pilot numbers around 4.5K. This would require something like a 50% increase in fleet size.

For it to be a longhaul command, you'd also have to see all shorthaul aircraft replaced in flavour of longhaul, again within 5 years.

So we are talking about 777 replacing ALL shorthaul aircraft, AND a 50% increase in total BA fleet size for a new joiner to see a 777 command in 5 years.

In otherwords its so far out of the realms of feasability your contact must have a serious reality disconnect.

CPB

[NigelOnDraft]

Just been told that command time on the 777 fleet may come down to as little as 5 years with the expansion. (Subject to T5 being up and running by 2008). By then I should be earning more than an easyjet captain anyway. Wot "expansion"? T5 is an irrelevance... BA is largely LHR, does not seem to have much intent to expand elsewhere at all, and LHR / BA is "slot constrained". T5 will not increase slots.. Any increase (i.e. mixed mode) will be small, and will benefit everyone else before BA (politics).

In that you have been ...told that command time on the 777 fleet may come down to as little as 5 years ...what figures have you been "told" for BA 320 LHR? 757/767? Your post seems remarkably unknowlegable about BA, since if C77L comes to 5 years, we are probably looking at DECs for C32L :)

[wiggy]

new_nigel

Just after I joined BA during the DEP rush of the late 80s/early 90s my chief pilot told me " you'll get a widebody command in about 7 years" - sound familiar?..... well times and fleets changed and in reality the first time I was eligible for a widebody command was more like 14 years.

As others have pointed out there's going to be no massive Longhaul expansion at LHR - no slots, no space and no money and the possible change in age legislation could stall the whole game of musical chairs for at least five years. No doubt there will be equipment changes ( ? more 777s for 744s) at some point but I reckon Command numbers will stay essentially the same.

OTOH you're in now - enjoy the Right Hand Seat, it ain't all bad and I hope you maintain your sense of optimism - you'll need it.

Rgds

[Human Factor]

Just been told that command time on the 777 fleet may come down to as little as 5 years with the expansion.

I had to laugh. This year is the last one with big retirements. After that, retirements slow to an average of about 70 per year (there is a dip to 48 in 2006, without the change in legislation being taken into account). I'm expecting a 777 command in about seven years if I'm lucky, I've been in for seven and a half so far. Repeat after me, for someone joining now you can expect a 737 LGW command in 12-13 years, a LHR shorthaul command in 15-17 years and a Longhaul command in 19+ years. :rolleyes:

Someone asked for advice earlier on in the thread. I'll say that again as well:

Take the management briefings with a pinch of salt!!

[BADEPS]

Folks,

If BA are struggling to recruit pilots then maybe someone would care to explain why they are no longer advertising for DEP's?

Also, why are there still people in the hold pool awaiting an offer of employment?

I think this thread might be a little exaggerated!

BADEPS :ok:

[madmax100]

BA are not gonna be struggling to find pilots anymore! Instead, they plan to integrate a whole load of Aer Lingus Pilots onto the Airbus Fleet, non of whom will have been through the DEP selection! BA Balpa have also signed up to the deal!

[silverhawk]

Three of our FOs have recently turned down job offers with BA. One to go elsewhere, two staying with us.

Not long ago it would have been inconceivable to choose a lo-co over the airline which believes it's the world's favourite.

imho ba is now only attractive to early 20s low-time FOs.

[solitaire]

madmax100

And your evidence for this bold assertion is.....???

This proposal was in fact rejected by BALPA and was probably an exercise in kite-flying by BA - especially as there are no surplus EI pilots anyway.

[Human Factor]

BA Balpa have also signed up to the deal!

Er.... no. :rolleyes:

[Re-Heat]

Especially as BA have said that they wont buy any new aircraft until all their debt is paid off. (so they can finance new aircraft at non junk bond rates)
Maxy101 - what a load of rubbish - elimination of debt is financially stupid with interest rates at low levels. The plan was a lowering of debt to more reasonable levels.

[maxy101]

Reheat ..... I must have dozed off at that point...it was getting close to lunchtime....
I have no idea at what debt level we can borrow money on more reasonable terms, but we were led to believe we would have to pay an awful lot of it back first; which, of course, is the perfect excuse for the company to plead poverty for the next few years.

[Holer Moler]

If Big Airways are so short of Airframe Drivers - Why are they still sending black legs (Secondees) to GSS.

[bluepilot]

Noticed that they are asking for applications again on the web site. I would have thought all those interested would have applied by now.

Now if they were to improve the conditions i.e a pension that is worth while I am sure many more would be interested

[A320rider]

if you are not happy with BA payscale, why don' t you leave.

I would work for free of for 1$/hour...

[Thin Albert]

Pilots have become very goavoiding the dreaded call and so BA has been left cancelling a number of flights.[/quoteod at ]

What the hell is so difficult as to avoid a companys phonecall, if you are not on reserve or standby?Do you have to have at all a portable or any other kind of telephone?

I thought only the SWISS are so stupid and going to work on an offday for free!!!
Cheerio
TA:rolleyes:

[maxy101]

Thin Albert ...How do you avoid the manager at the bottom of the aircraft steps drafting you to go to work on your next days off? Or managers using their own mobile phones to draft people so that pilots that call screen wont recognise it as a BA number. It is all getting a bit silly there now. I know a lot of pilots that give BA a PAYG mobile number as a home contact. Hardly satisfactory though , is it?

[Signora_Matta]

Well that surely would depend on wether they are answering said PAYG mobile or just ignoring it like some of the foreign based pilots do!!

[captwannabe]

BA are not gonna be struggling to find pilots anymore! Instead, they plan to integrate a whole load of Aer Lingus Pilots onto the Airbus Fleet, non of whom will have been through the DEP selection! BA Balpa have also signed up to the deal!

What a load of cr*p. No pilots want to leave Aer Lingus, they're very well looked after by the airline. There is no surplus, and they're even recalling their 2001 cadets because they're getting a couple of A320s.

:rolleyes:

[Human Factor]

captwannabe,

You may want to check the date of madmax's post.;)

BA proposed to use seconded Aer Lingus pilots for a while until BALPA put them straight. Was over a year ago though....

[overstress]

A320rider started it by saying he/she would work for $1 an hour - fine, go ahead! But why trawl back a year to make a meaningless statement like that?