300 and R22 servicing and downtime

[SEL]

I had a discussion the other day about the costs and downtime of 300CB/CBi and R22. Now, this may have been done before, I did try searching but couldn't find anything.

What are the differences in running costs between the R22 and 300CB/300CBi? I know the 300CB/CBi is heavier on fuel but I was told it also required more downtime?

What do you folks know? Oh, and this isn't about which one is 'better', that has been done to death!

[TheFlyingSquirrel]

I don't know enough about the 22 to comment, but I know 2 H300 operators who have been complaining about the cost of the machine to maintain lately. They always need tweaking in some capacity and need an engineer around most of the time. They have C's and Cbi's - apart from the obvious timelife components, I understand there's not a lot of difference in maintenance between the newer and older models.

[Hughes500]

Run 300C models for about 15 years at about 300 to 500 hours a year.

The only unscheduled maintenance in the past 3 years / 1300 hours has been
1. cracked skid - while wheeling it out ( last week ) $ 2500
2. Clutch actuator failed $ 500
3. radio display u/s £ 120
If I go back another 3 years and 950 hours

1. Engine overspeed - student started with throttle fully open £ 11000 but insurance paid
2. Broken ring gear £ 470
3. Trim diode £ 25
4. Trim pivot pin sheared £50

I have owned 7 different machines all generally not a problem if you
a) Keep it in a hanger
b) warm it up and shut it down properly
c) LOOK AFTER IT
d) Use an engineer who knows the type

Their biggest problem is they are not user friendly eg changing the oil filter needs belly panel off, although new ones you don't need to do this. Blades - erosion strips will only last 3 years unless looked after really well. Just bought a new set of blades and strips sealed up much better.
If you have the old cone feathering bearing change to elastomeric fork will save a fortune.

Now one of my customers left his outside with no covers on for 6 months - £ 10K later it is up and flying !

[TheFlyingSquirrel]

H500 - what damage was done on the overspeed? Was the engine cold or warm at the time? Ta.

[Cross-eyed]

Flying Squirrel - Can't comment on H500's ship but, in general, the big concern with an engine overspeed in this model is the lower pulley drive shaft. Overspeed requires an eddy current check.

I've owned a 1998 300C for over two years now (the fuel injected, 3 seater, 950lbs. payload model of the H269 series). The only unscheduled maintenance I've had to perform is:

1) New alternator
2) Starter relay

I also changed out the original starter for a SkyTec high torque starter - highly recommended for the colder months.

The CBi, though not as powerful as the 300C, has extended life limits on more components

Vertical Magazine ran an article last year comparing the R22 and 300Cbi. They calculated the scheduled maintenance to be somewhat less for the 300CBi at 2200 and 4400 hours. They also speculated the downtime is less in the CBi, for scheduled maintenance, attributed to the incremental, local shop performed CBi maintenance vs. R22 return-to-factory overhaul.

[Hiro Protagonist]

I believe one consideration often neglected in comparing the operating cost of R22s vs. 300s is the comparative ease of rotor overspeeds in R22s in autorotation training.

This cost mostly applies in a busy training environment, with new instructors teaching new students, and can be minimized with good CFI training on how to recognize student mistake processes and recover without letting the rpm wind up over the red.

I've never had the pleasure of giving instruction in the 300 series, but, having recieved my initial training in one, I don't remember having nearly the trouble controlling the Nr as most students I've trained in R22s. I have seen several R22s go out of service due to overspeeds at much cost in mx. and lost revenue time.

If anyone out there has time teaching primary students in both types, perhaps they could comment on this.

[Hughes500]

Flying S

The engine was cold - worst case. What normally happens is the following

1.Too much charge is put into the pots ( throttle fully open )
2.Engine fires - the explosion in the pots is so great that the the piston whistles too quickly down the barrel.
3. Due to xs speed everything is momentarily elongated
4. This causes the big end to take a scoop out of the white metal bearing - the metal normally found in the scavege filter after an overspeed.
5. Usually the driveshaft remains intact


Most overspeeds are usually not that bad because
a) the erpm needle leads the engine quite considerably
b) engine is reasonably robust
c) if engine is warm there is a protective coating of oil everywhere.

Generally the 300 is a great little ship they will take the abuse that an R22 will not tolerate. Bear in mind one was designed as a military trainer trhe other as a 1 + 1 personal transport machine.

[SEL]

This may sound an odd question but does the 300 require more servicing than a R22. So, if used in a busy training school, would the 300 have more downtime than a R22 for the same fliight hours?

[ThomasTheTankEngine]

Hi SEL

Where are you based? This will effect the cost's.

I have mainly experiance on the R22 and a little on the 300.

In my experiance the R22's are quite good on unsheduled maintance, As for the 300 I have to say the two I have flown didn't seem to have to many problem's either.

I am at our maintance company tommorow, They keep very detailed operating costs for each machine they maintain (Robinson only, Based on actual cost's not extimated)

I will ask (This will be in euro's and for a R22 based in Belgium)

If your looking at buying a new or used machine and your based in Europe then PM me.

[SEL]

Hi ThomasTheTankEngine

I'm in the Uk. This is all just research and I am not looking to buy..at least not for a while!!

I'd be very interested in reading the Vertical Magazine article Cross-Eyed mentioned though. Any ideas how to get a hold of it?

[Cross-eyed]

SEL - you can order the past issue at their website. It's Issue No. 7 here: http://www.verticalmag.com/issue07/

"Robinson R22 Beta II vs Schweizer 300CBi: A Battle of Equals?
The Schweizer 300CBi and the Robinson R22 Beta II are the two major production helicopters contending for today's flight training dollar. Ardent fans of each respective helicopter will argue to the death the unique merits that make their choice the best. Vertical test pilot, and East Coast US Editor, Guy Maher travels to Helicopter Adventures in Florida to take a close look at each machine, cut through the hype, and evaluate each helicopter in its training role."

[ThomasTheTankEngine]

Hi SEL

Here, We allow for the R22 $45.00 per hour rebuild / €25.00 per hour maintance (Sheduled & Unsheduled) / Fuel 8.5 US gallons (32 litres) per hour / Insurance €11,000 year.

This will vary depending on where your based (Im not sure about the cost's in the UK, I left about 4 years ago)