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kimchikal
11th Dec 2001, 07:05
All foreign pilots with Korean Air were informed over the airline's "CREWLINK" system that with effect from January 1st 2002, all foreign captains will have to take a 10% pay cut and that this would last for 12 months! Also, no more credit for deadheading will be given to foreign captains.

This is not acceptable as the foreign captains haven't been given an opportunity to discuss these drastic measures with senior management, and none of the contractors have been notified of these cuts.

This is so typical of Korean Air's management, and they should all be terminated as they are all merely "puppets on a string", "yes men" and window dressing to the outside world, which include the assistant chief pilots . Strange that the majority of assistant chief pilots are all Canadians?

The assistant chief pilots do absolutly nothing for their crews as none of them "wish to rock the boat"! The B744 assistant chief pilot has even issued orders to his crews not to submit captain's reports!

Recently a new VP Training was appointed, and his assistant is a former BA B744 captain, new to Korean Air and doesn't even hold a Korean instructor or checker position. Why this guy, probably because he's just another puppet!

Another department, QA (Quality Assurance) is being run by an inexperienced, fairly young Korean VP, who's command of the English language is less than satisfactory, and under him are a team of foreign and Korean pilots who like the assistant chief pilots, are totally useless. The pilot in charge is an Aussie and guess what, his "buddies" are slowly but surely being drafted in to his department.

There are approximately 275 foreign captains in Korean Air, and a mere 650 Korean captains, so management take note, the foreign captains will not stand still this time!

Is this a threat, no, just a statement of fact.

[ 11 December 2001: Message edited by: PPRuNe Towers ]

Few Cloudy
11th Dec 2001, 21:18
It's one to avoid boys - always was....

allianceair
12th Dec 2001, 00:16
I recently had the pleasure of flying Korean Airlines form JFK to Seoul then on to Bangkok. It was a great flight and great value for money. I will definitely fly Korean again and bypass Singapore Airlines, which I think is totally overated.
Keep up the good work Korean and hope all the negative publicity gets left behind. I also really like Incheon International Airport in Seoul. The whole experience was unforgettable.

Thanks Korean.

I posted this earlier!

When I read threads like this it makes me sick. If you guys don't like Korean then leave and go somewhere else. Go to Singapore Airlines or better yet go fly for Ryan Air!

grange.guzzler
12th Dec 2001, 02:09
FC. Where is JJ? Hiding under a rock with all the other reptiles.

411A
12th Dec 2001, 03:41
Not all that unusual to find that the expat guys are notched down a step...if they don't like it they can always....ah, leave.
As in "bye-bye"
Of course this can backfire on the company as well....SV tried this in 1986 and found that they could not crew all of their flights, and had to put the pay back up.

[ 12 December 2001: Message edited by: 411A ]

G.Khan
12th Dec 2001, 15:00
Allianceair - from other threads it would seem that you are very upset by the fact that SIA would not give you air-miles on a heavily discounted ticket whereas KAL did?
Many other airlines don't give air miles for their discounted tickets, any more than many hotels, hire-car companies, etc. will give you airmiles/flybuys/etc. if you are seeking a discount. Did you know that?
I have many good friends working with KAL as pilots, so, perhaps for their and my benefit you could explain why, when making a legitimate complaint about a blatant abuse of their contract, you would suggest that they should chuck their hand in and go work elsewhere? They are, after all, on a legal and binding contract, are they not?
Regarding the SIA uniform, for those periods of flight where an evacuation is possible, since the Taipei accident, they now wear sensible footware to cope with an evacuation.

411a - nice edit! ;)

allianceair
12th Dec 2001, 17:28
Khan

Yes not getting the Air Miles was upsetting, :mad: but Singapore did not live up to my expectations about great inflight service. I have used them three times. I sensed arrogance all around. :o

I went to KAL with low expectations and I was pleasantly suprised. :)

As far as expats working for Korean and being made puppets, that is a risk of working in other countries. :(

I have dealt with expats in other industries. I have noticed they live like kings with all amenities in third world countries :cool: , while the local qualified managers who probably know more than the expats live like paupers. :(

If the expats at Korean do not like the conditions of the contract then they can pack up and leave and let Korean face the consequences.

Anyways what gives the right for Korean Management to mess around with the contract of expats? Aren't there laws against this?

ELAC
12th Dec 2001, 18:55
Kimchikal ....

I'm as unhappy about the 10% haircut as you are, but your remarks about the role of the assistant chief pilots are way out of line.

I know 3 of these guys quite well, and from that knowledge I do know that they were given little if no warning that this decision had been made. And, despite the lack of requested input from management, I also know that they were active in trying to build a case for other crewing efficiencies as remedy to prevent a paycut for the expat captains. That they were ignored by the Korean's was neither surprising nor due to any lack of effort on their part.

You owe them an apology. If you have any grace at all you'll do it here on this thread.

And while I'm at it, the inference that some of them being Canadian is somehow linked to any of this is an insult I take personally.

For the record only 2 of the assistant chief pilots are Canadian. Two others are American and one is Australian. I'm not sure if the B737-800 has an ACP but I'm sure that there are no Canucks on that fleet.

In any event your slur against Canadians is totally unacceptable. I suggest you either retract it or name the time at which we can meet on the 8th floor at OC and have a little warm discussion on the nature of your personal national biases.

Is any of the above anything less than perfectly clear?

[ 12 December 2001: Message edited by: ELAC ]

KALPilot
13th Dec 2001, 02:57
ELAC

I totally disagree with your comments.

kimchikal is right and many foreign pilots within KE support his feelings.

The ACP's have done nothing to help their crews and their standard response to any query or question is: "I'll look into that", so perhaps all the ACP.s should be called: Captain Mirror's.

Deadleg
13th Dec 2001, 03:02
Kimchikal, care to tell everyone your nationality?

TowerDog
13th Dec 2001, 03:33
Not with KAL (Yet) but been in the same boat as ex-pat with 2 other airlines.

If they are enforcing a paycut, they should at least negotiate, or give advance notice or sweeten the deal: (Sorry guys, we need to cut cost and have no choice, but if you hang in there and stay loyal, we will make it up to you once we return to profitability.)

Any of you KAL guys ex- Evergreen from late 80s, early 90s, B-747?

If so, my e-mail: [email protected]

Sherm Boy
13th Dec 2001, 03:36
KimchiKal and followers...

Please, please, please. Some of us earn our living by trying to be part of the solution to our employers needs (occasionally flawed though those employers might sometimes be..like all airlines). If you aren't part of our side of the fence then you must be, by definition, part of the problem.

And lecturing someone on English by using the word "who's" instead of the correct "whose" does little for your credibility. There are plenty of on-line guides to the correct use of the Queen's English and I suggest that since you are cyber-literate enough to author venomous posts you could usefully let your fingers do the walking to a little electronic education. Look up www.how (http://www.how) tobeamoresensitivexpat.com while you're at it.

There's probably not another airline in the world that has more aggressively approached the task of re-inventing itself over the last 5 years. It would have achieved more if not for the dead-weight of hateful attitudes such as yours. Please lighten up the load on us all and go someplace else!

Sherm

[ 12 December 2001: Message edited by: Sherm Boy ]

[ 12 December 2001: Message edited by: Sherm Boy ]

a319320
13th Dec 2001, 04:07
I think it is most unfair to blame Canadian
or any other expat pilots for not doing something about the pay cuts.
Any expat pilot who makes a suggestion to change or modify something will be given a polite lecture on Korean culture and how perfect it is and there ends the matter.
Expats are in Korea to serve a purpose,and whether you are an instructor or a line captain there is nothing you can do to change
the situation.
If you persist then you will end up without a job and in todays market I don't think anyone wants that,so give these guys a break.

ELAC
13th Dec 2001, 07:21
KALPilot ...

You're entitled to your opinion, however, I think you are placing the blame in the wrong place. I'd feel quite safe in betting that if you were doing the job that you'd have got no further along than any of these guys have.

As far as effort goes, I can personally vouch for the amount of time that the ACP on my fleet has put in on issues affecting me and my colleagues, up to and including dealings with Greenberg. That he hasn't always been successful has never been for a lack of trying and the frustration he has had on those occasions has been obvious to all of us who know the guy.

aiming point
13th Dec 2001, 12:58
So all the pilots should just be obsequious little sycophants and be grateful for the shafting.
Take it or leave it!!
Now there is an original, helpful thought, usually expressed by those with a healthy dose of jealousy and failure within themselves.
Always nice to know your management will go to the firewall for you when things start getting tough.

Well Whatever............

kimchikal
13th Dec 2001, 16:29
Gentlemen:

Korean Air's (Korean) Management in their wisdom has finally taken steps to rectify the terrible situation we have long suffered by terminating ALL the ACP's (assistant chief pilots) on December, 12th, 2001.

I believe the foreigners in Quality Assurance (QA) are now being looked at and we hope Management will make the same decision. Watch this space.......

Also, it's time that Korean Air reverted to having only Korean's in the training department and the sooner the foreign Line Check Pilots) LCP's and DLCP's are removed from these positions the better for us all.

Interesting times ahead and it is sincerely hoped that Greenberg and Snyder do not have their contracts renewed.

More breaking news to follow as and when it happens! :D :D :D :D

KALPilot
13th Dec 2001, 17:11
Dear: kimchikal

Brilliant news :)

We'll most certainly be watching this space!

Happy landings

:p

ilndflyer
14th Dec 2001, 00:08
In response to the arrogant Captain who decided to bite the hand thats feeds him and knock the QA KOREAN VP whose english is less than acceptable, I think I heard American Airlines was looking to hire him. You are in a foreign country flying their planes and taking their jobs and dont like their rules?In these times Any flying job should be relished.I may not like the paycut from my contract or the circumstances that it was administered but I sure as hell would not make condacending remarks about My foreign employers. Incidentally I fly in the US and know that non Americans or non residents cannot get a job here. The fact that I can go to another country,get a job that wasnt available at home, and live better than the natives and take their jobs would definitely make me try and understand and respect their culture...

KEiOnU
15th Dec 2001, 03:53
Hello Everyone -

I am very new to this site and since logging on I find contents interesting and very agreeable.

All foreign ACP's and all QA auditors are not wanted or respected or liked in Korean Airlines.

ACP's especially used there respected positions for their own immoral purposes in order to stay in Seoul for many days at a time and not be with families at home!

This is Korean airline, and Korean gentlemen can manage it very well.

Any new foreign captain who accepts senior or management post will be under our investigation and all dirty dealing will be opened to public.

Thank you for your time.

[ 15 December 2001: Message edited by: PPRuNe Towers ]

John Barnes
15th Dec 2001, 05:46
KEiONU I fully agree with you, you hit it right on the head. Korean could be very well managed by the "Korean Gentlemen". But there is only one little problem KEiONU: Where can we find a Korean Gentleman!!!!

411A
15th Dec 2001, 06:18
Is Korea still catagory 2, if not, why not? ;)

GlueBall
15th Dec 2001, 06:31
Been upgraded to Category 1 by FAA oversight team earlier this month!

Huck
15th Dec 2001, 07:14
Must take nerves of steel to lambast managers by name while hiding behind a cryptic username......

kimchikal
15th Dec 2001, 10:20
This is your "GENTLEMAN OF STEEL" :p

KEiOnU really has hit the nail on the head! Excellent comments and all so true!

Now that the Korean's are firmly at the helm, we are now back to a level one carrier and the sooner all the foreign managers are removed from their positions, we shall enter into SKYTEAM's consortium.

The Korean FCU (flight crew union) will take whatever steps they consider necessary to have all foreign managers removed, one by one. :D

KALPilot
15th Dec 2001, 10:25
Message For John Barnes:

If you are thew John Barnes from TBG - you are certainly no "GENTLEMAN".

Thank the lord you're not with Korean Air.

Message For kimchikal:

Lovely comments and I support you and the KAL FCU all the way.

yellow dust
15th Dec 2001, 17:39
I am on a layover in Seoul, and traveled on the subway. The people I met were wonderful, helpful and friendly. One guy got off the train to take me to the building I was headed for and then got back on the train to complete his journey. I could not have been made to feel more welcome.

Why then the vitriol from Kimchikal, Kalpilot and KEIonu? What rock did those guys crawl out from? Do they really expect anyone with half a brain or more to sympathise with them? When the pilots they support did run the airline, correct me if I am wrong, but it had an abysmal record of safety, this being one of the main reasons the foreigners were called in to help. If the assistance offered has not been successful, maybe it is due to a lack of cooperation from the locals, ever think of that, guys?

G.Khan
16th Dec 2001, 02:01
Yellow Dust - not certain about this but I suspect that KALpilot and KEIonu are either Koreans or on 'local' terms? Just my thoughts.

kimchikal
16th Dec 2001, 04:43
TO: YELLOW DUST

What rock did you crawl out of?

You're probably new to KAL (or Asiana) and you've got a lot to learn!

Please tell me one thing positive that any of the ACP's have done since their appointments 2 years ago?

Why haven't any of the ACP's or anyone else mentioned in my earlier postings defended themselves on this thread?

Why, I'll tell you.....because they all know I'm right, and you need only ask many of the foreign pilots if what I have been saying is right, and a large majority of them will agree with my comments and observations.

Dead weight is what they (the ACP's) were, and now they have been removed! Well done to KAL's management.

What have QA done since this department was established? Once again, why hasn't anyone from QA responded to my postings? QA comprises of a group of geriatric, semi-retired local and foreign captains who hop on an off various fleets checking line pilots and LCP's, but no reports are published and no action has been taken against any line captain or LCP if their performance has been found to be less than satisfactory. It's the "let's not rock the boat" syndrome, and another means of earning a little more salary!

The former B744 ACP has now been offered the position of Assistant to the VP Line Operations, and as his term as ACP on the 744 was an absolute farce, why has this same "gentleman" been selected for this new position? Ass-licking we all presume.

Another grey day in KAL, and the days will only become darker as time goes by!

So, if any ACP, LCP or QA Auditor wold like to defend themselves, please speak up and post a thread.

Hope that answers your questions "Yellow Dust"?

cisco
16th Dec 2001, 06:00
What a scary place to work.........speechless!!

bblank
16th Dec 2001, 06:30
Scary for potential SLF too!

411A, I imagine you know the answer to your question but the Wall Street Journal of Dec 7 ran a front page story suggesting that political pressure was behind the expedited FAA review of KAL.

KE Devil, take the trouble to look upthread at Huck's post.

Kaptin M
16th Dec 2001, 07:10
The postings by the Korean "gentlemen" on this thread indicate (to me) that KAL's run of accidents are a long way from over!

It now appears (from comments by the Koprean contributors) Korean Air has only "tolerated" the presence of foreigners to expedite their upgrade to Group 1, and with that achieved KAL will revert to its previous structure.
Time will tell.

Certainly NOT my choice of employer, and a carrier I'll avoid at ALL costs!

Mad Dog Driver
16th Dec 2001, 09:12
To Kimchikal,

What rock did you crawl out of?

I may not be a part of the infamous KAL, but there is a time and place to rant a rave. It is not "gentleman" like to post the internal problems of any company and especially expect someone to defend one's self in a forum like PPRuNe. I suggest that you go talk to the ACP is there is a problem. :D

Never bite the hand that feeds you. If it wasn't for the expats, I'm sure that KAL would be worse off. KAL has a long way to go. :)

Once a "ja-shiek" always a "ja-shiek" !!! :p

[ 16 December 2001: Message edited by: Mad Dog Driver ]

yellow dust
16th Dec 2001, 09:51
Kimchikal, my question was not in fact answered. I asked if the people you excoriate failed to change things for the better because of a lack of cooperation from the locals...but wait, I guess you did answer me.

KE Devil
16th Dec 2001, 14:36
Getting away from the subject of ACP’s ,QA Auditors and senior management, lets look at some of the B744 line captains and LCP’s from South Africa.

Many of these South African pilots came to Korean some years ago through their Australian contractor and they jointly and knowingly mislead management into believing they were experienced B744 captains with South African Airways. In fact, these pilots had no B744 command experience and the only command time they had was on the B737.

Some of these captains now hold senior line positions with Korean Air as LCP’s and DLCP’s on the B744. How would this look if there were to be another incident or accident involving one of these pilots? The Korean Air insurers would have a field day.

Korean Air management became aware of this several months into their (the South Africans) training, but were too embarrassed to do anything about it. Criminal don’t you think.

So, the next time you hear a South African accent over the PA, use the on-board satellite phone and make sure your insurance policies are up to date for the sake of your families.

Hope you all found this posting interesting!

[ 16 December 2001: Message edited by: PPRuNe Towers ]

KimLeePark
16th Dec 2001, 15:33
Foreign South African Captains are very terrible pilots with very little experience and knowledge of B744 operations. Many F/O's dislike operating with these Captains and wish they did not remain in Korea.

Bob Hawke
16th Dec 2001, 16:31
Cripes, it's a bloody nightmare waiting to re-happen. You guys make me so greatful to have never gone anywhere near KAL. I have a foreign devil friend who stayed about 4 months, couldn't handle the locals in KAL, particularly on the flight deck. Everything that involved discussion over issues with a decision, that had already been pre-empted by the local, but rolled by the foreign devil, was a lose of face. Like bloody school kids, he described it. Even bottom lips dropping in school kid fashion. I laughed when I heard it, but I can see by some of these postings, it’s highly probable.

Had no problem outside work. Sensitive prats comes to mind, but his description was more colourful. It surely comes through here by you local contributors. He sincerely regretted joining them, and was glad to leave them, and that was another story in its self.

Your SA Captain, if he was full of p.1.5.5., deserves all he gets, but look at the way you're talking. Shiet mate, your CRM is even worse, and will lead to another one of your famous accidents.(And you've had some doozies!!) It's only time, the way you are rabbit -ting on here, as Kaptin M says.

Your suggestion that Management should answer you on an open public forum is ludicrous. Are you sure you work for an airline, or an internet café chain store. Get real, and get practical, and do your own work. Go and see them, face to face, and sought it out. Or put pen to paper, with your real name, and spell out your story. %U$K the English, use Korean, but make it factual, not vindictive and venomous. It’s your airline, what have you got to lose. Ohhh yes, your anonymity.

Hope you guys get it soughted, but I am telling you, I won’t be recommending anyone to fly with your firm whilst this attitude is displayed. Incredible!

Wiley
16th Dec 2001, 19:06
I've heard people who've worked in Korea make some rather outrageous comments about the… err… I think the phrase was 'poisonous atmosphere' that exists between the expats and the local pilots/management and thought they simply had to be exaggerating. But if some of the posts on this thread supposedly written by Korean KAL pilots actually were written by Korean national pilots who fly the line for KAL, I now see that they were not exaggerating at all.

If I was an insurance assessor reading this thread, I'd be very, very worried if my company had any exposure to a KAL hull. Whatever premium you're charging, gents, it simply isn't enough. And the really scary part is that, judging from the tone of the posts that so concern me, the people involved can not see / will not see that there's anything to worry about in the attitude they display.

GlueBall
16th Dec 2001, 22:30
Most fascinating are Korean women: They are bundles of energy, and they complain about no one. :cool:

ELAC
16th Dec 2001, 22:45
John ....

What you see here is not indicative of the typical environment at Korean. I suspect that several of the "posters" to this thread are really a single "im-poster" who is deliberately trying to spread his poisonous viewpoint and make it appear more widespread than it is.

The real truth is that there are some very difficult and challenging individuals at KE, but there are also many very hard-working and capable Korean pilots, especially amongst the younger non-military group.

If the latter group is ever able to shake free from the traditions that have been passed along by 30 years of military cronyism the company has the potential for a bright future.

allianceair
16th Dec 2001, 23:10
Dammmm, so come guys should I continue flying with Korean Air as a passenger or not? Reading this thread has surely rattled my nerves once more. Disunity only leads to Disaster. As for the South African pilots....are you kidding me, are they really terrible imposter pilots????

smiths
17th Dec 2001, 00:51
The last time I posted my true feeling towards Korean women, I was banned from prrune. :mad: What Glueball said is quite true!! But be aware what you are getting yourself into, my last one took me to the cleaners. :mad:

KEiOnU
17th Dec 2001, 04:51
To answer your question, the SA Pilots really are terrible and most are imposters as you so mildly put it. They are also extremely arrogant and very racial. No Korean F/O enjoys their flights with a SA in the left seat!

The Aussies are just as bad, but on the positive side their credentials are at least real. The Aussie Captains who made it to the rank of Line Check Pilots (LCP's) were after a period of time, removed from their positions as management soon realized their mistake in appointing them LCP's in the first place.

Management does eventually listen, but it takes postings like this to bring certain matters to their attention.

Viastra
17th Dec 2001, 09:41
Gentlemen

Re: KIMCHIKAL, KEIONU, KALPILOT etc

Some important points for your consideration.

1. Be very careful if you have any direct e-mail contact with Mr. KEIONU. I am informed that he may well be being investigated by company and police (Korean and US) IT experts for sending malicious e-mails with a poisonous and threatening theme all too evident to observers of his posts. Don’t get tied up on his address list. As a fellow human being and not wishing this person any harm I must (though I am not legally trained) urge Mr KEIONU to not say anything that will make things tougher for himself or his defence lawyers when his identity is known.

2. To Mr. KEIONU and his supporters. It may be your personal tradition to say nasty things about foreigners behind an anonymous e-mail address but that style is not the case for the overwhelming proportion of your countrymen and those who are part of Korea’s drive to globalize. Korea is a wonderful, friendly country that is setting an example to the world in globalizing and exporting. If you want to go against this trend then don’t stop at getting rid of foreign pilots and management: get rid of foreign passengers and freight. Foreign kerosene. Airplanes. Destinations. Get rid of English. Tell all overseas Koreans (especially in “management positions”) to come home. And instead of your airline progressing rapidly into a “Top 10” genuine world class carrier it will go downhill as you seem to so earnestly desire. Seoul National University (did KEIONU go there?) is busy hiring all the “foreign” professors it can get to help build expertise. Maybe they’re wrong too. I’m sure KEIONU can find the SNU President’s e-mail address if he tries.

3. I am not an ACP so I can’t say for sure but I will bet that KIMCHIKAL and KEIONU never went to their offices with suggestions, ideas, complaints. I will promise Mr KEIONU this: if he contacts me with a genuine e-mail ([email protected]) I will keep his message totally confidential and undertake to ensure that his complaints ideas and suggestions get put on the KAL CEO’s desk if I have to take it there myself. If he will forward his signed resume (and this goes for KIMCHIKAL et al too) as a way of showing their level of expertise in knowing best how to run this fine airline I will personally donate US $500 per resume to the Korean charity of their choice.

4. As to the question: what have foreign management done? Not a relevant question. Management at Korean Air is a team. Not “them and us”. Not perfect. Not even near perfect. No airline is. But since Guam, that team has rebuilt this now great carrier from the ground up. AS A TEAM. If you can’t practice CRM outside the cockpit Mr KEIONU, you can’t practice it inside! If you insist on the practice of assessing management credentials based on genetic, racial and cultural traits then you are a bit late. Mr Milosovic is now in the Hague for practicing this sort of stuff and there were plenty before him. “Mein Kampf” was written while your grandparents’ generation was still being oppressed by the Japanese colonizers. I believe “foreign” managers like MacArthur and Truman etc had something to do with ending that war.

5. Mr KEIONU speaks with great authority as the “Voice of the FCU”. Is that an elected position? Funny, but most FCU members I’ve shown his writings to are as disgusted as I am. A number of FCU officials say that they have no knowledge of any FCU campaign against foreigners. If you claim to be speaking for all of the FCU members you’d better make sure because if it is indeed true that you going to be hunted by the authorities for your e-mails then you might need union support one day.

6. Finally, Mr KEIONU and KINCHIKAL etc, write to me so we can discuss this face to face, preferably after a walk through the Yongsan War Museum where we can review the history of foreigners working (and dying) alongside Koreans to keep this great country free. Where I come from we judge people by what they do, not their racial background. This airline has come a long, long way while you haven’t been watching and if you want to find out just how far it’s come then take up this offer of genuine communication NOW. If you come with an open mind you won’t be disappointed.

My Bible suggests that at this time of year "Peace and Goodwill" should be the themes we pursue. I think this has gone on long enough. Let's do something positive for a change.

Happy Christmas folks and safe flying.

Viastra

G.Khan
17th Dec 2001, 12:49
allianceair - so ther you have it, yes?

allianceair
17th Dec 2001, 17:18
G.Khan,

.....and I certainly will continue to fly Korean Airlines. I tell you Human Nature is hard to understand...nobody is really ever happy, they always seem to want want want..........

Has there ever been a fist fight in the cockpit or between the pilots at Korean? From all indications in this post it sure seems headed that way. :rolleyes:

Huck
20th Dec 2001, 19:44
To Mr. Viastra:

excellent reply!

Farside
21st Dec 2001, 04:51
Guys instead of making fools of ourselves in reacting to obvious very stupid statements, why don’t we celebrate a little bit of the Christmas spirit and think of our friends in Sabena and Swissair who are really out of a job, and all because of real bad management. I believe that the best reaction here to these aggressive and slanderous statements from these 2 or 3 local Korean pilots is to completely ignore them. I wish you all a merry Christmas and a happy New Year.