Mobile plane ban protects us from terrorists - FBI

[dwshimoda]

Anyone have any views on this:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/06/01/fbi_opposes_air_mobiles

Mobile plane ban protects us from terrorists - FBI
By John Leyden
Published Wednesday 1st June 2005 16:33 GMT
The FBI is objecting to plans to relax the current ban on the use of mobile phones on planes. In a joint submission with the Department of Homeland Security, the FBI says that unless carriers set up systems to allow law enforcement to wiretap phones owned by designated people then the proposals open up a loophole that might be exploited by terrorists.

Concerns about interference with avionic systems have meant cell phones have been banned on US commercial flights for over a decade. Recent advances in technology have allowed the use of Wi-Fi networks on airlines prompting air regulators to look ahead to a time when tight rules governing the use of cellular telephones and other wireless devices can be relaxed. One approach would be to house a "pico cell" inside airlines to allow access to voice calls using a regular mobile instead of only through satellite phones.

The Feds strenuously oppose any such plan. "The proposal raises not only regulatory and technical/operational issues, but also important public safety and national security issues, their submission argues. The Feds want airlines to satisfy a lengthy list of eavesdropping requirements as stipulated in the 1994 Communications Assistance for Law Enforcement Act (CALEA) to satisfy their objections.

Kurt Opsahl, a staff attorney at the Electronic Frontier Foundation, told C/Net that the Feds had come up with a "wish list" that exceeds rules established by CALEA. "If the FBI succeeds in this context, what's to stop them from getting more wiretapping powers than they currently do in other contexts?" ®

[Ranger One]

I'll comment. Another report I've read gives some of the detail of what the FBI actually wants from the system. This includes the ability to:

- eavesdrop on any conversation within 10 minutes of it taking place.

- obtain the seat number of the passenger making any call.

- "expeditiously interrupt" any call in progress

- cut off service to all passengers except government agents (!)

All seems a bit OTT to me, especially the last - not aware of anything in the GSM system that allows it to identify a phone belonging to a 'government agent'.

Read another report that the only system currently close to approval/deployment is OnAir - which is European. American electronic companies are allegedly lobbying their regulators to procrastinate and delay approval until a competing American system is ready to roll...

R1

[ragamuffin]

Seems reasonable to me.

Would you want to be in the cabin of an aircraft at night when all around you is asleep when some amoeba starts shouting down his mobile phone to his grandma "YES, I REALLY AM ON A PLANE"
Keep the ban on mobiles on aeroplanes.

:zzz:

[RevMan2]

OK, so the FBI wants to restrict (passenger) ground-to-air communications via mobile phone.
It might not have occurred to them that there are other means of direct communication - WLAN, for instance - currently being rolled out across various airline fleets.
Keep up with the times, chaps.
But if a ban on mobiles keeps the amoeba quiet at 35000 feet, I'm all for it....

[Someone Else]

"- cut off service to all passengers except government agents (!)

All seems a bit OTT to me, especially the last - not aware of anything in the GSM system that allows it to identify a phone belonging to a 'government agent'."

Current GSM phones, and its the phones, can read the access control class from the SIM. Defined classes are:
Joe public,
Security services,
utilities (gas water etc),
Emergency services,
and phone company staff.
(See GSM spec 02.11)

On command from from the network the phone will simply not attempt to place a call for certain classes.

In the UK chief constables can instruct the mobile phone companies to disable mobile coverage for Joe Public over all or part of their forces area.

[dwshimoda]

From my humble point of view, there's any number of other methods pf communications they can use, and to be honest, if they've managed to get on the flight, it's probably already too late.

As at the minute I'm humble SLF (but working through my ATPL exams) I enjoy the fact that mobiles are not allowed - travel on trains regularly, and you'll know how annoying it is everytime someone's latest crap ringtone chimes through the air, followed by "Hello... yeah, I'm on the train..."

[Ranger One]

Someone Else - many thanks, had no idea - I sit corrected.

Amoeba comments - oh sure, I don't disagree - by no means in favour of phones on planes, I was commenting on the FBI issues.

FBI issues - as other posters have commented, there are other means of communication. WLAN means instant messaging, even IP telephony. What tapping/control abilities have FBI over seatback phones? And a number of folks on 9/11 and other occasions managed to connect from aircraft with conventional cellphones... a Bad Guy determined to make a call will just sneak into the lavs with his phone and with luck he'll manage to connect... don't really see a major security issue with cellphones here.

R1

[steamchicken]

What's the betting this will "magically" not be an issue for a competing CDMA system that sends lots of lovely lolly to big corporate donor Qualcomm?

[PsychedelicGoat]

I agree with dwshimoda- that if they are already on board, then it's too late anyway and we all gonna die. I say ban mobile phones on planes. It will make communication just a bit "more" difficult for any wierdos out there.

Or you can let everyone have mobiles on board on condition they agree to being cuffed to their seats for the entire journey :}

[Avman]

The use of mobiles in the air will be the catalyst to a new wave of air rage and I'll be one of them! I plead now to all airlines, DON'T ALLOW IT! It's bad enough at airports already.

It's not so much the use of them (hey I have one too) but it's the "look I'm important" ar$e$ who speak loudly for all to hear that really irritates me.

[sammypilot]

Is it me or is there something really sad about people you see shopping in supermarkets and who have Blue Tooth earpieces sticking out of the side of their heads. The image of someone who must always be available never seems to sit right with them pushing a trolley whilst their wives fill it with the weekly shopping. When the call comes would they simply abandon the trolley and their wife as they make a dive for the door.

[PAXboy]

In the UK chief constables can instruct the mobile phone companies to disable mobile coverage for Joe Public over all or part of their forces area. This already happens. When GB II visited tyhe UK last year, there was a comms blackout around the motorcade. So your phone might be off the air for several minutes without any warning, apology or compensation.

Certainly this is all @rse covering stuff by the FBI and if they are on, it's over.

When the call comes would they simply abandon the trolley and their wife as they make a dive for the door. Yes! Last year, I was in a crematorium and someone's mobile phone rang - right in the middle of the funeral ceremony. He just stood up and answered it, as he was walking back down the aisle to leave the hall. Obviously his friend meant a great deal to him.

--------------------
"I tell you, we are here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you any different." Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.

[MarkD]

this is nothing. the other day the US Securitate (okay, LA County Sheriffs Dept) were making out that if you buy a knockoff DVD the money goes to Hezbullah or summat. That's real comedy.

Slashdot coverage (http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/05/29/1742236&tid=155&tid=103&tid=219)

[gofer]

Seeing as the NSA monitors mobile calls anyway - I'm not sur that I understand why the FBI would get so up tight - but if one of the calls was a badie I suppose they would like to know the seat location. Keep them banned is my call - there is a phone in many of the seats if you need it in most planes - and it will probably cost the same as yours anyway.... In fact why not let you put your chip in the airlines phone and then just cahrge it to your operator in stead of messing around with a CC anyway - then everybody whould know where you are !

[Desertia]

I'm surprised the airlines are up for this, considering the 10 bucks a minutes phones in the backs of seats makes them so much money. And what stops the amoebae using them? (apart from the cost maybe...)

As for the Feds, well they can stick it up their jacksies anyway.

I always make a point of dropping keywords into phone conversations just so that Echelon gets totally confused ;)

Cheers
Desertia

[MarkD]

Desertia

I suspect the cost of accessing the microcell won't be much short of the satcom system, can be billed via their phone co. rather than credit card and will save the airlines the weight of phones in every third seat!