A380/Emirates grizzles!

[1279shp]

Air NZ is owned by govt!!! :hmm:

Dubai-based Emirates came under concerted attack by rival airline CEOs at an industry forum held during the IATA AGM in Tokyo earlier this week. The extraordinary debate, which lasted more than an hour Monday, started when British Airways CEO Rod Eddington posed a question about whether airlines should or should not be government-owned or protected. T

hat set the scene for an all-out assault from the assembled CEOs, who called into question the transparency of Emirates' balance sheet and also wanted to know how the airline was going to finance its huge orders for 45 555-seat A380s and 50 A340-600s and 777-300ERs. "Where are you going to get the money?" Air France-KLM Group Vice Chairman Leo van Wijk asked bluntly.

In a terse reply, Emirates President Tim Clark, who maintains that the carrier does not get a cent from the government, said the books are transparent and there are no "shady bits or pages missing." The airline will acquire the A380s on operating leases that will be financed through cash flow, he added. Subsequently, Clark told ATWOnline, "When we started in the mid-'80s, we looked at the industry mistakes and legacy problems and started with a clean sheet of paper--we are the long-haul, low-cost airline."

Qantas CEO Geoff Dixon, a speaker at the forum along with Clark and Air Canada Chairman Robert Milton, also took a swipe at Emirates, claiming that it enjoys the luxury of being owned by the government, which also owns the airport and sets aviation policy.

"Any airline CEO that can control the airport and the government would be making a lot more money," said Dixon. "You can't be the owner and the regulator--it is inherently wrong." Milton, who succeeded Air France-KLM Group Chairman Jean-Cyril Spinetta as chairman of the IATA board of governors at the AGM, accused Emirates of capacity dumping, declaring that "what Emirates was doing in Australia was outrageous." Clark riposted that "while Emirates is flying into Australia six times a day, Qantas is making record profits."

[wayne_krr]

Finally, the penny has dropped that EKs relationship with its regulator has placed it on an uneven field with its competitors. The CEOs worries stem from the financial aspects of such a relationship but the real worry is the degradation of flight safety that occurs under such cicrumstances.

The question still has to be asked as to why CASA has allowed such an arrangement to exist for so long. Possibly this financial dawn might awaken our sleepy authority to the malaise that are the EK FTL scheme.

[ratpoison]

Yes, well, I believe the German CAA is starting to keep a very close eye on this outfit and I can certainly say that they blo##y well should be as well. I find it appalling that CASA continue to ignore ASR's and phone calls about their shonky duty times. Maybe it's all in the money eh.

Keep Discovering. !!!!

[Enema Bandit's Dad]

One day they'll probably have an accident with pilot fatigue as a causal factor. I believe that if they operate two crew they get 100% pay, three crew is 75% and drops to 66% for four crew. So an Emirates pilot tells me.

[sandpit]

Dixon has his "facts" wrong. Emirates is owned by the Government of Dubai. The UAE regulator is the Government of the UAE, an altogether different thing believe it or not.

The confusion comes from the EK Chairman also being the Chairman of Dubai Civil Aviation department. This runs the airport, it is NOT the Civil Aviation regulator.

Sure EK has influence with the regulator, but don't try and tell me Qantas doesn't have the same with CASA. EK has its skeletons, but this ain't one of them.

[330 Man]

Enema Bandit's Dad
That is totally incorrect. We get paid for every minute we fly. The percentages you refer to are for counting the time for flight time limits. In that regard your percentages are correct, to a point. It was called flight time factoring, and it evidently no longer is the policy. We are limited to 100 hours in 28 days and 100 hours in 12 months.

Your lifestyle varies depending on the fleet. I am 340 and for April I flew 94 hours with while working 16 days, and for May it was 96 hours for 17 days of work. Two of those days did not start until 10 pm and 3 ended at 6 am. A JFK trip is 27 hours and works 3 days. Sydney is 28 hours for 4 days so the time adds up very fast. The 330 flies much shorter trips and works more days, and I can not tell you about the 777.

Our financial report is certified and audited just like any other airline. It clearly states our expense for fuel, landing fees, lease expenses and aircraft payments. This is no different than any other airline. The expense that is obvious is labor. Emirates like Dubai pays lower wages. We import labor from other countries for a low wage compared to Austrailia, but the workers make many times more than they could have in their own countries. If Geoff Dixon wants to compete, he better import workers, or negotiate lower wages from the workers he has.

I have worked for union airlines my entire career (23 years) and seen the "cost" of high wages and silly work rules that are not efficient. I have also benefited from those work rules, and I can tell you that I much prefer this system.

The government of Dubai has not put any money in this company since the original start up money in 1985. The policy here is totally open skies. We pay the same for fuel as any other airline. If other airlines can not compete than instead of blaming the Government of Dubai, they should look within and get CEO's who can manage in todays environment whithout blaming others for their shortfalls.

Regards,

330 Man

[Metro Boy]

Wow. 100 hours every 12 months. I wish we were limited to that.

[White Knight]

Now that factoring of hours doesn't happen there are far fewer ASR's being put in regards fatigue.
Much like 330 Man - my next month is 91 hours on four trips, and loads of time off, (so you can relax a bit aussie chums in CASA.)

If you think EK is subsidised (which it isn't)- try looking at the yanks playing field with all of their chapter 11 kind of malarky:yuk:

[1279shp]

330 Man> "...instead of blaming the Government of Dubai, they should look within and get CEO's who can manage in todays environment whithout blaming others for their shortfalls."

Bl@@dy ah!

Though one has to wonder about also about the amount of muddy goings on out of places like the Beehive/Canberra too.

Look at the history of both countries airline competitors, and its plain to see absolute favouritism. Either for the airline with the country's name on the side of its planes, or the one with decades of history.

Cue 'The Matrix' soundtrack about now.

[Going Boeing]

330 Man

Our financial report is certified and audited just like any other airline. It clearly states our expense for fuel, landing fees, lease expenses and aircraft payments. This is no different than any other airline.

One major difference to other airlines is that EK pay no tax - this leaves a lot more cash available to purchase aircraft and dump capacity to the detriment of the competition. This is the real issue that the other CEO's have with EK.

[Obiwan]

We import labor from other countries for a low wage compared to Austrailia America also imported cheap labour once upon a time :p

[journeyman]

Ratpoison,

Just a small comment on your assertion that the German CAA is 'keeping a very close eye' on EK.
On the pushback recently in MUC, we almost hit a local German carrier who was temporarily unsure of his position at the time, i.e. lost.
They would do well to keep a very close eye on their own people.

[RAD_ALT_ALIVE]

Journeyman,

The assertion that serious cultural/organisation flaws exist within your company is so vastly different from the human flaw you referred to that it makes your post laughable at best!

And, it was (in your own words) your aircraft which nearly hit the other poor lost soul! So one has to ask...what was your dispatch engineer doing at the time?

Everytime I've taxied close to an EK airplane, I'm sure I've smelled something fishy. Well now it seems that the rest of the world is starting to see scales and flippers on them too.

If it smells fishy, and looks fishy - well, I guess it's probably fishy.:confused:

[Backwater]

A330man. The 12 month limit is 900hrs. Period. No paperwork exists allowing a pilot to exceed this figure, but there are plenty of EK pilots over 900 hrs.
Go figure.

[journeyman]

Rad Alt,

I was actually responding to Ratpoison's allegation re the German CAA with a small anecdote, the point being that nobody is infallible/innocent of any wrongdoing (QF being the obvious exception). So just for your benefit (not mine), I'll elaborate: that would be the German dispatch engineer conveying the message to stop to the German tug driver trying to avoid the lost German aircraft - understand?

And the assertion that there are 'serious cultural/organisational flaws' within EK remains just that - an assertion. You obviously suffer from bouts of severe xenophobia - that's my assertion.

[cnsnz]

RAD ALT ALIVE
Sure that is not a Rat smell coming from your plane?
It is amazing when a Company can be successful and profitable all people can do is slag them off.
Both QF and NZ have in the past dumped capacity especially on the Tasman when ever another carrier enters the market Even if this means starting or introducing another airline that they own thus affecting there own profits by lowering the prices.What the hell has it got to do with anyone else how a company pays for there aircraft? is it pure jealously that these CEOs are showing because they can not replicate EKs success.
CEOs of both QF and NZ have slowly driven down the terms and conditions of there staff long before EK entered the seen in AUS and NZ.
OK they dont pay tax in DXB that is a benefit, they are still liable for tax in every country that they operate to I am sure if the boot was on the other foot and AUS or NZ had the same tax benefits you would sit back and enjoy the benefits and say nothing.

[donpizmeov]

1279shp made a very interesting statement that Air NZ is owned by a government. This would be the same government that saved it from going under.
I would also think that anyone who had worked for the former AN or Compass airlines would have ideas of what government intervention can and can not do for the airline industry. And then there is the question of what happened in 1989.
Mention has been made of the fact that EK benefits from slave labour, and being based in a place with favourable tax laws. This is true, and is why it can spend more of the punters money than others.
EK is not alone. Anyone who has a pair of NIKE trainers is also supporting the slave trade, just as EK pax are. Everything you buy that was not made in OZ is also hurting a OZ producer of some type. Anyone who deals with a company in a tax haven, or an account for raining days in the Isle of Man or Cayman islands, or bought trees or donated to the OZ film industry, also benefits from tax rules (perhaps the QF brothers don't know of these things, but the fellas from CX or KA will help you out). I think this is called real life. It happens.
All the players in this industry are as dirty as the others. Be it chapter 11 protection, a tax free base, monopoly of routes, or whatever. The players will grab whatever they can to get an edge.
But this is all bean counter BS. This is the only excitement these low life slime get out life. They crave the oportunity to grumble and moan that someone has it easier than themselves, creating excuses to cut, disembowel and pilage all those beneath them in
campaign of leveling the playing field. And all the while they have all recorded record profits, pocketed huge bonuses whilst crying poor because of high oil prices, and that EKs bike has more gears than their own etc.
My 2 year old child can argue a more convincing case.
My job is to fly the aeroplane from one point to the other, and try to do it within a set time frame. Not really rocket science. I would not have the scantest idea of the bottom line of the carriers parked to the left or right of me at the stand. I would not give a toss to where they flew or how often. If I were to smell fish on the flight deck whenever I went pass a certain carrier I would be more concerned with the personal hygiene of their cabin crew (no chic pilots with us I am afraid) than question their motives for being somewhere, or how their books are cooked. You see the rumours and chat on the flight deck, sealed in that tube are just rumours and chat. None of us have a clue of the true finiancial state of any of the players. Nor do they want us to. But they do want us to blame each other for the constant errosion of our terms and conditions.
Rather than worrying about how EK can buy or lease a new aeroplane, why not concentrate on why after making yet another record profit from your hard work, GD is still taking the bonuses and talking doom and gloom.
I would probably see a doctor if the fish smell does not go away.

Don

[Global Nomad]

:D

Well Don, that has to be your best piece of prose yet. It takes at least two glasses of vin rouge before my vitriolic dialogue flows as elouquently.

No red herrings about it being written by your two year old child though.

[donpizmeov]

Too right Global. Just wish who ever taught the little bugga to type would also teach him how to spell.
Don
Note to self. Remember to log off from hotel computer.

[Ghostflyer]

Goeing Boeing,

If paying money to the government is tax; EK paid US$100million last year. The reason they made money is because the employees have worked harder; just like at BA and Virgin. EK is a low cost airline unencumbered by unionistion. This can suck for the employees but it is the true reason we are at a competitive advantage.

Our revenue/employee has increased from US$220,000 to $300,000 over the last 5 years. If you want a right riveting read check out the full report on the EK website. Before you slag the auditors, they are Price-Waterhouse-Coopers. Then try and find Quantas' financial stats on the web. It might be interesting to see how they would do with the same open skies policy in Oz as exists in Dubai.

As to the yanks, since 2001 they have received 'US$7billion in direct assistance and many billions more in indirect aid' according to the US Goverment Accounting Office.

Shame we didn't get the $7 billion in aid coz the profit share would have been worth about 5 years. So the old joke is true 'about airline CEOs being the whining noise when the engines have been turned off.' I always thought it was the APU!

Ghost:zzz:

Out of interest, this came from a US Magazine, interviewing the EK chiefs:

“A couple of comparisons on costs: our figures show that Emirates’ operating costs in 2004, excluding our freighter operation, were 8.5 cents per seat mile.

In comparison, Continental and American Airlines unit costs were 9.7 cents per seat mile. United Airlines was marginally higher, and Delta was way up at 12.1 cents per seat mile. All were significantly higher than Emirates.

Emirates’ unit costs are more akin to a low cost carrier Southwest Airlines, whose unit costs were 7.8 cents per seat mile. So, how to explain our low cost base? Well, compared to U.S. carriers, one key difference appears to be in our payroll costs. In 2004, Emirates’ payroll costs were 1.6 cents per seat mile. In comparison, major carriers in the United States, including Southwest, spent roughly twice that amount on staff, at around 3.2 to 3.4 cents per seat mile"

As to open skies the Economist said:

'Emirates Airline has played a crucial part in Dubai's development. From the start, Dubai has run an open-skies approach, welcoming any foreign airline that wants to fly in competition with Emirates.' They left out coz if they get open access to your market they'll kill you!'

[druglord]

ghostflyer,
wouldn't those low seat/mile costs be attributed to the fact that they are primarily international long haul?
I don't know, but I'm guessing that may have a significant impact on operating costs. I'm open to being corrected though.

[turtleneck]

druglord
just check EK routes vs equippment, it's easy on the net, and you'll see how many short + medhaul flights are done with 330/777. that's definetely no factor.
y'alls should stop bashing and pointing at EK, looking for any kind of loopholes. your profit is in your own airline ops and leave the EK-bashing to EK staff. at least they know where the big profits originate and why.