Forget Iraq....Pull Out of Washington DC.

[SASless]

If you consider that there has been an average of 160,000 troops in the Iraq theater of operations during the last 22 months, that gives a firearm death rate of 60 per 100,000. The rate in Washington D.C. is 80.6 per 100,000. That means that you are 25% more likely to be shot and killed in our Nation's Capitol, which has some of the strictest gun control laws in the nation, than you are in Iraq.
Conclusion: We should immediately pull out of Washington, D.C
;)

[BEagle]

Or perhaps just ban hand guns altogether?

[ORAC]

The trouble is the Pentagon just doesn´t have a Washington exit strategy. Been bogged down in that quagmire for decades......

[Selac66]

If you worked on an innocent person death rate you'd probably that find your much better off in D.C. - Unless you're in a newly renovatd part of the Pentagon.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Ban hand guns? That should do it. I can see the criminal classes falling over each other to hand in their weapons.

This is a first for me, Beags. Normally I'm in full agreement with you but this doesn't make sense. Washington already has the strictest gun control legislation in the US. Banning handguns won't make much difference in this case.:(

All it does is remove the ability to make life difficult for the criminal from the law abiding.

[MrBernoulli]

Yeah, but "strictest gun control legislation" does NOT equate to safety OR physical control. In this case all it means is you have a huge list and supposedly know who has ownership of all those millions of guns around. Thats not control, that is just knowledge of a huge, deadly and very real problem.

[BEagle]

It was a cynical comment. After one lunatic went nuts with an illegal gun in the UK, all hand guns were allegedly banned. Seems to have worked quite well....













:confused:












Has it bolleaux! Gun related crime has increased ever since that stupid over reaction to one criminal. If he'd battered his innocent victims to death with a golf bat, would golf have been banned as a result?

[incubus]

If he'd battered his innocent victims to death with a golf bat, would golf have been banned as a result?
It is worth a try - I'll get my clubs.....

[Mad_Mark]

There is currently the same knee-jerk reaction over air guns at the moment. Rather than impose stricter control many want them banned completely because some nutter shot and killed a poor wee boy in Glasgow recently with an air rifle.

What next? More children are killed by cars than air guns or hand guns, will there be a major campaign to ban all road vehicles next?

My sympathies go out whole-heartedly to the parents of those children sadly killed, by any means, BUT I am getting totally fed up with this pathetic knee-jerk, namby-pamby state we are living in :yuk: Stop punishing the rest of society for the actions of the sick few!. Stop rewarding bad behaviour and punish it properly instead!

MadMark!!! :mad:

[Impiger]

Ban road vehicles?

Gets my vote - bring back the hay eating cr@p producing mode of transport I say coupled with decent trains and the old omnibus. I guess bicycles are OK too.

Until of course someone loses control of their nag and it runs amok amongst a crocodile of schoolchildren waiting to cross the road. Government instantly bans nags, crocodiles, schools, gatherings of children numbering more than 3, roads and any other contributing factors to this discraceful waste of life.

Of course smoking cigarettes is still OK they don't do any harm at all.

Life is dangerous if not handled with care - so take care out there!

[Solid Rust Twotter]

*Whew*

Thought you were losing your touch for a while there, Beags.

As an aside, in SA all schools have been declared Gun Free Zones (Sound familiar?). Just last week an irate parent pistol whipped a teacher and gang violence using illegal weapons is now rife in some schools.

All they've achieved is a safe place for the criminally inclined to ply their brand of fun.:rolleyes:

[SASless]

Is it the act or the implement that requires banning? My state enacted a mandatory seven year prison sentence....no plea bargain, no probation, no parole...for Armed Robbery....and the armed robbery rate declined by 60%. The state also enacted the "Concealed Carry Law" for citizens....surprise....the robbery rate declined again.

Bandits do not like being shot by their victims..nor do they like the prospect of doing a minimum of seven full years in Nick if convicted.

Our Liberals are having a hard time accepting these concepts.

Definition....Neo-Conservative: A recently mugged Liberal.

http://www.utahshootingsports.com/usscstudy.htm

The link reports a study done in Utah following enactment of that state's CCW law. One might note that Gang Activity increased dramatically during the period of the study which skews the crime rate for younger men.

Utah also has a very unique make up of people and terrain with only a few large urban areas amidst its very large and oft times very sparsley populated rural areas.

http://www.beast-enterprises.com/ccw.html

This a an NRA summary of CCW laws and their effect upon crime rates.

[BEagle]

"Concealed Carry Law"

What exactly is that, please?

The only firearm we're allowed to carry in the UK is a water pistol. As long as it isn't a powerful one, of course.....:rolleyes:

[JessTheDog]

Strictly license bullets and their component parts!

The "right to bear arms" should be proportionate. There is a self-defence argument, but why would someone would need more than a dozen rounds to defend themselves in a single incident?

If every gun owner has a handgun (or rifle) with only a magazine's worth then they will not waste them by profligately putting "caps" in anyone's "ass"!

[SASless]

BEagle....

In some of our states, ordinary citizens upon completion of Police approved training courses, police criminal record background checks, and approval by law enforcement agencies, may carry concealed weapons. There are strict laws regarding when and where the weapons may be carried and those laws are strictly enforced.

These approved persons are not police officers, have no special authority in that regard, but are just like you and me.....regular people entitled to pack a concealed gun if they wish.

In most states, carrying a gun openly displayed is quite legal, subject to various restrictions.

Needless to say....there are mountains of laws about how, when, where, and why one can discharge a firearm....and they vary by city, county, state, and time of the year (hunting season for example).

The anti-gun crowd is an interesting bunch....a very active ban the gun columnist a few years ago....shot a teenager who was trespassing on the writer's property....doing a midnight swim in the old boy's swimming pool. Funny how he was ready to own his own gun and then use it illegally while demanding others surrender their guns.

Then, we have Fat Rosie ODonnell, who wants all guns destroyed...except her bodyguard's.

The latest hot button for the Ban the gun crowd is the .50 Caliber rifle, it used to be assault weapons (by their definition....my skeet gun)...and all handguns.

They leap upon the drive by shooting death of a three year old child as being a reason to destroy all guns....and ignore the facts surrounding the event. The guy doing the shooting was a drug dealer, driving a stolen car, had an illegal weapon, was high on drugs at the time, and was out of prison on parole for an earlier murder where he stabbed a fellow drug dealer to death.

They see the evil in all that as being the gun........now go figger!

[PileUp Officer]

Please don’t ban guns – I’d have real difficulty getting to work.
You can ban cars though – I only use mine to mess about and have fun killing stuff.


Hmmm…:confused:



Edited to add:I understand there are legitimate uses for firearms but my point is simply that guns are designed solely to kill whereas cars are designed to transport people and things around.
I understand the “a gun (or car) is a tool, it’s the mind that is the weapon” argument but some ‘tools’ are inherently more dangerous than others.

[Dan Winterland]

A lovely story from a mate who was touring the west of the good ol' USA by car wis his wife. They stopped for dinner in Utah, a normally dry state except that the county they chose to eat in allowed a one glass of wine with your meal provided you were from out of state. Said friend's wife finishes her glass of wine and asks the waiter for another. The waiter looks at her in horror exclaiming

"You've already had one glass, you can't hace another!"

This story is funny, because he was wearing a six gun at the time!

Different values.

[BEagle]

Thanks for the explanation, SASless....

Apart from having wars with their own loathsome kind, are thieves and other ne'er do wells in the US really deterred from breaking in to someone's property knowing that Mr Smith and Mr Wesson or Mr Colt might be ready to give them a .38 welcome?

Or are they too dumb to think twice and just get blown away anyway?

I can see no excuse for not permitting the use of lethal force against burglars!

[SASless]

BEagle,

As to deterring breaking and entering crimes....probably not a lot of deterrence due to most of those crimes being done by stealth while people are not in the home.

I can assure you, if the burglars know there are guns there, and the resident is protected by law if he were to use deadly force.....then I can assure you gun ownership has a deterrent effect.

In my home state....if a burglar during the hours of darkness enters your dwelling place....and you put a great big hole through his body....with your trusty 12 gauge shotgun....44 magnum handgun....or your 30/06 deer hunting rifle....the only thing the law will do, is take a burglarly report and investigate the circumstances to confirm that it was just that. The law also allows for night shift workers to have the same protection if they are attacked while sleeping in the daytime.

We are allowed by our law...to protect our home and family from criminals that enter our homes. Under the law, citizens are not required to give ground whereas police officers are. Police officers are allowed to use deadly force only as the very last resort but citizens inside their own home have no such obligation.

The differences between US and UK law in this situation are quite different. We are not allowed to set traps or rig up guns to shoot people if they open windows or doors.....but standing up to a burglar is well within our rights.

Here is an excerpt from the State of Tennessee law...

Tennessee Code Annoated 39-11-611(a) provides:

(a) A person is justified in threatening or using force against another person when and to the degree the person reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful force. The person must have a reasonable belief that there is imminent danger of death or serious bodily injury. The danger creating the belief of imminent death or serious bodily injury must be real, or honestly believed to be real at the time, and must be founded upon reasonable grounds. There is no duty to retreat before a person threatens or uses force.

[Navaleye]

Speaking as a former active member of my pistol club who can no longer carry out his sport and a ex-colleage of mine was on the Olympic team. He can no longer carry out his sport at an Olympic level!

Why don't they ban Javelins? They can kill you just as easily, thereagain so can a cricket bat. This country has gone down the toilet and Mr Blair has pulled the handle.

[Onan the Clumsy]

Oh come on now. It would be a lot more difficult to kill someone with a javelin. First of all, they'd have to be at least a block away from you.

[SASless]

From the way England bats in cricket....the bad guy would have to stand perfectly still to get hit.

Head down and low running for the exit.....

[Ian Corrigible]

SASless,

At least one US state does not require training for a CWP - all I went through was the background checks.

And as a .50Cal owner, even I have to say the thing is ludicrous. Fun but ludicrous, esp. in semi-auto form. The concerns being raised by authorities over with this weapon relate its stand-off anti-material capabilities. If nothing else, a good system of registration would surely be appropriate - I'd personally have no problem with this being enforced.

I/C

[[email protected]]

And now in UK - the ludicrous suggestion that kitchen knives should be banned unless they have the point removed/rounded. This is due to a statistic that claims that most domestic violence incidents resulting in death/serious injury involve kitchen knives. Some to**er of a chef has agreed saying that kitchen knives do not need a sharp point, just a sharp blade and suddenly the nanny state goes up another gear - Prescott meanwhile is suggesting that all our bath taps should be fitted with a thermostat so that one cannot make the bath too hot and scald oneself - the world has gone mad!
Back to guns - in the US this year I wandered through Bass Pro Sports, an outdoor pursuits outlet in Florida - in amongst all the fishing and camping stuff were more weapons than you could shake a shi**y stick at, ranging from crossbows and muzzle loading rifles to a Smith and Wesson 0.50 calibre revolver!!! Why would anyone need a pistol that fires the size of round usually associated with a sniper rifle or a heavy machine gun?
Sadly, from the look of some of those purchasing the aforesaid weapons your problem is that weapons are just too freely available. If you could just let 'reasonable people' own weapons to protect themselves from ne'er do wells then things might be OK but even those with IQ in single figures are allowed to buy guns with no control or supervision.
Strange that the Canadians don't have the same gun problems (in numbers of deaths) despite having the same liberal attitude to their availability.

[ZH875]

Why would anyone need a pistol that fires the size of round usually associated with a sniper rifle or a heavy machine gun?
Stand still [email protected] and maybe (hopefully) you will find out!

[L1A2 discharged]

Crab@ etc,


Back to guns - in the US this year I wandered through Bass Pro Sports, an outdoor pursuits outlet in Florida - in amongst all the fishing and camping stuff were more weapons than you could shake a shi**y stick at, ranging from crossbows and muzzle loading rifles to a Smith and Wesson 0.50 calibre revolver!!!

I had a wander through it too, and the Levis shop next door. The shape of some of the bodies trying to get into Levis is more scary than any .5 :D

Did you enjoy IITSEC?

[SASless]

http://www.gunblast.com/SW_500.htm

In case you want to know what this .50 caliber revolver is all about.

No Saturday night special this thing.....I love the comment where the author says some experienced shooters declined to shoot the thing when given the chance.

[BEagle]

Ye gods - your own personal anti-tank revolver! I thought that the Desert Eagle 0.50 http://www.magnumresearch.com/Expand.asp?ProductCode=DE50
was intimidating - but this is something else.

What on earth do people hunt with it - tyrannosaurus rex?

[[email protected]]

Sasless - yep that's the baby - his comment about poking copper sausages into stovepipes shows the ridiculous size of this pistol. I suppose it could be a safety device at rodeos as I reckon it would stop a charging bull from 25 yards. As to personal protection - this wouldn't deter a burglar - it would atomise him, especially with the softnose round. What happened to reasonable force?
I got the guy in the shop to let me handle the 0.5 so I could show my kids, hoping to educate them about real guns killing real people, but in reality I've probably just added it to their Christmas wish list.

L1A2 - the really scary thing is that most of those in the Levis shop were Brit tourists!! Not sure what IITSEC is - I was on holiday (a proper one not paid for by the Queen).

ZH 785 - oh dear, you're not another Tiger mate still smarting from the other thread are you?

[Ignition Override]

A few years ago, two of our pilots were walking back to their layover hotel, which is maybe two miles from the Pentagon, very near DCA airport. The First Officer saw a guy walking towards him. The pilot was curving to stay out of his way. As the oncoming attacker, at the last second raised a pistol, the pilot luckily chopped down with his hand-the pistol went off and the bullet, which was meant for his stomach, got him in the foot. I heard that he finally got back to work-but as to how well he can use his foot, dont know. Hopefully he does his "V1 cuts" in the Airbus.

The low-life was supposed to shoot a (white?) guy in the stomach, as part of a gang initiation test. According to a modern deifinition, the attacker was a rascist. So much for gun control in certain states or districts. At least in our capitol, no law-abiding citizen is burdened with the possibility of realistic self-defense, until it is too late. I don't know if there is an ideal solution, except in theory. But this theory (from the popular play "Peter Pan"?) could have cost this guy his life, possibly a husband and father.:ouch:

My question is, what does the laws there accomplish when criminal can always break into a house, steal guns and find the right ammunition, or pay someone to legally buy it?

Just some helpful info here, I hope. When our house was broken into, the pros somehow figured out that nobody was inside, after they yanked the power cable from the house, waiting for the police to show up. There were numerous cars parked in front, by the way, but we have thick, wide bushes in front of an air cond. compressor and the now-destroyed power cable. But the old security system did not work so well...when we returned (from a 1-hour errand), it was the only dark house-so we went to the neighbors. Then the sliding glass door had no bar to block it-they might have punched a hole anyway. What if you live far from neighbors out in the country and return to a very dark house (rural Georgia or rural England)? Don't ever leave valuable videotapes in a camera bag's pockets-the whole bag gets taken, plus a lady's jewelry (hers is always in the master bedroom..clever place to hide it..rolleyes...). Neighbors lost tapes of young children.

[SASless]

Ignition,

You describe the situation we are facing in the USA very well. We have law upon law about criminal use of firearms....and very lax enforcement of those laws except in a few locales. Finally, in some places, the Federal and local law enforcement agencies are banding together to prosecute perpetrators of gun violence in a coordinated effort.

Street Gangs and the violence associated with them has been the greatest problem in our society of late. As you correctly stated, initiation rights in some of the gangs requires killing, raping, and other violent crimes. Home invasions involving young female gang members as a means to gain entrance to the home is not uncommon.

Despite the media portrayal of the situation (please do remember their left wing liberal bias) the National Rifle Association (NRA) has been a very vocal proponent of the strict enforcement of all gun laws that punish perpetrators of gun violence. I would also suggest that Hollywood and its production of so much violence in its films and programs are in part to blame for the problem. Include the liberalizing of laws, sentencing, and restrictions placed upon the police and we can understand why the situation is getting worse.

The rate of violent crime is finally decreasing as indicated by the FBI Uniform Crime Reports but the random nature of it seems to be increasing. Used to be, if you got murdered...it was someone you knew. Not so these days.

I have a radical idea on how to curb gun violence. Display or possess a firearm during the commission of a crime.....20 years in prison without parole, probation, or early release. Hurt someone with a firearm during the commission of a crime....life in prison without parole, probation, or early release. Kill someone....mandatory death.

I believe in punishing those who harm others.....and not in depriving honest law abiding citizens of the ability to defend themselves.

[BEagle]

"I have a radical idea on how to curb gun violence. Display or possess a firearm during the commission of a crime.....20 years in prison without parole, probation, or early release. Hurt someone with a firearm during the commission of a crime....life in prison without parole, probation, or early release. Kill someone....mandatory death.

I believe in punishing those who harm others.....and not in depriving honest law abiding citizens of the ability to defend themselves."

Hear hear! And the same sentence to be handed out to the perpetrators' slimeball lawyers who attempt to defend such gun violence - because they would be clearly guilty of conspiring with others to pervert the course of justice!

Bring back Judge Roy Bean! Or rather, the legendary version - the truth is not quite as colourful!

[con-pilot]

For you who are unfamiliar with Oklahoma, where I am based, the areas outside of the two main cities, Oklahoma City and Tulsa, are mostly rural in nature and are composed of mostly farm land and ranches. It not unusual to see pickups on city streets with rifle rack on the back window with one or more rifle and or shotgun on the rack, including AR-16 the civilian version of the M-16. New Mexico, Nevada, Colorado and Kansas are just a few other States that allow this display of weapons. There is no special law allowing one to have a rifle on a gun rack displayed in the back window of a truck because it not concealed from sight.

Now a true story. A few years back two inmates from a Federal Prison about 50 miles west of Oklahoma City escaped after beating a guard and stealing his sidearm, after hiding in farm fields for two days they stumbled onto a farm house and stole one of the farmer’s trucks. As our two desperados were speeding away from the farmer’s home the farmer passed them going the other way. Recognizing the truck as his and realizing that it had been stolen the farmer stops, pulls his 30.06 rifle off of the gun rack and starts shooting at his own truck (the farmer later being interviewed on TV stated that it was just an old truck that he used around the farm and that a few bullet holes wouldn’t hurt the thing.).

Our two escapees drive out of range of the farmer’s rifle with only a few bullet holes in the tail gate. Upon reaching the outskirts of Oklahoma City, a suburb called Bethany, our two geniuses decide that they need some cash. Lo and behold they spy a small bank and pull into the back parking lot; they back into a parking space and prepare to commit a bank robbery. The parking lot is surrounded by an 8 foot stockade fence; this becomes very important later in the story.

The two latter-day Jesse James want-a-bes get out of the truck still dressed in their prison clothes and one of the them, the smart one, has the guard’s pistol in plain sight in his hand. Unfortunately for our two heroes the bank’s president/owner’s office faces the back parking lot.

The bank president and a good friend, both of who were former US Marine Corps officers and Korean War veterans, were in the president’s office looking out at the parking lot. They realizes that something was up when the crooks backed into the parking space (it was discovered later that the two crooks wanted to hide the bullet holes in the tail gate), which is unusual for most people to do when going to the bank. When the two bank robbers got out of the truck covered in mud and dirt with a pistol in hand it was obvious to the bank president and his friend that these two guys where not at the bank to open a new saving account for the free toaster.

The bank president’s friend just happen to have his old service side arm, the good old Colt .45, in his brief case and the bank president also had his old side arm, the Colt .45, in his desk. The two ran out of the office with their service weapons, grabbed the bank guard and told someone to call the police. The three people from the bank come out of the back door of the bank as our want-to –be robbers are walking toward the bank. The guard calls for the two men to drop their weapon and lay down on the ground. The robber with the gun looks at the three old gray headed farts (his words later) that have come out of the bank and decides to fire off a round at them to scare them off. Bad mistake, a real bad mistake.

All three men from the bank instantly return fire and our young punks turn around and run straight into the afore mentioned 8 foot stockade fence. Realizing that they cannot climb over the fence or run around the fence without being shot they jump into the bed of the pick up occasionally firing off a round at the bank. The three men from the bank find cover on three sides of the truck and fire at the truck totally disabling the truck. An interesting footnote is that in following police investigation no rounds are found anywhere except in the truck, no rounds from the bank president, his friend or the guard hit the fence or any other parked car, well except for the round from the bad guy in the back door of the bank.

By the time the police arrived, about five minutes, our tough guy prisoner escapees where crying and yelling for help, begging to be taken back to prison. Their wish was granted, in fact they are probably still there.

Oh yes, the farmer’s pickup; the farmer said on TV that he didn’t want it back, it was time to buy a new pickup anyway.

[BEagle]

Semper fi!

:ok: