Pat Malone at it again..... promoting the helicopter industry

[TheFlyingSquirrel]

Anyone who doubts what Pat looks like can confirm their suspicions with the purchase of the Sunday Times today.

Another pro-heli article from PM in the driving magazine.

I'd have gone for the R44 too !!

[helicopter-redeye]

TFS, why do you always tell us then when the shop is shut and there are no papers left.

Pat malone, why dont you tell us so we can buy the paper.

The Times, are you on-line ???

[Pat Malone]

Personally I think the motorcycle correspondent has it in every regard bar speed.
Once again, decent publicity for helicopters, though, and without the sort of "Bandits at 12-o-clock" drivel we got from one of the UK broadsheets this week...

[flyer43]

You should be able to locate the Times article as follows:

Click here (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/)
Then type "Pat Malone" in the Search box at top left hand side
This will open another search page with contents boxes already filled in.
Sellect the left hand one "Search this site" and you should be presented with three choices - all are the same "Bank holiday beach dash: the tortoise v the hares"

Any one of them should lead you to the article

Happy searching......

[helicopter-redeye]

Tusan Tak! Flyer 43. For anybody who lacks the time, here is the text of the article downloaded.

(£185,000 for an Astro ???????)
and the insurance looks a bit steep too

From the Sunday Times Bank holiday beach dash: the tortoise v the hares
Which machine gets you to the deckchair first?
Driving writers take up the challenge by motorbike, helicopter ... and camper van

Picture the scene: hampers and travel rugs, deckchairs and donkey rides and a long bank holiday weekend bathed — with a bit of luck — in early summer sun.
But first you have to get there. However strong the allure of a long weekend break in the country or on the coast, the British motorist knows that for every hour spent in the sun there is another to be spent in the car stuck in a jam.

Is there a better way to get to your destination under your own steam? Last month on the Friday afternoon before the May Day bank holiday we tested the options.

The destination was Rock, Cornwall, and the three modes of transport from London were a helicopter, a motorbike and a VW camper van. On paper it should have been no contest. The helicopter can cruise at 140mph in congestion-free sky, but first the pilot had to get to the airfield using public transport. The bike can weave through traffic jams but must stop for rest and fuel. So would the camper van win?

http://images.thetimes.co.uk/TGD/picture/0,,202813,00.jpg


Nicholas Rufford: VW Caravelle
Climbing into my camper van I prayed that a weather front moving in from Scandinavia would force helicopter pilot Pat Malone to postpone take-off, possibly indefinitely. It would also reduce Janie Omorogbe’s speed and give me a shot at winning the race. And despite the odds, Aesop’s fable about the hare and the tortoise kept springing to mind. Maybe, just maybe . . .

Heading out of London, a few spots of rain hit the windscreen and I found myself smiling. With a bit of luck Malone would be preparing to throw in the towel, fearing he might get lost in low cloud. Omorogbe would be weaving through the traffic somewhere in front of me, but I didn’t envy her. Having been a biker myself, I know a five-hour slog is no fun. I was still in the running, I reckoned, until I received a call from Malone — he was at the airfield. “The sky’s clear here,” he breezed.

But the weather has to be clear at both ends of a helicopter journey. There was still a chance Malone might run into cloud, forcing him to divert from the helipad at Rock and land at another airfield such as Exeter — or Moscow.

I was just easing onto the M3 when the phone rang again. I didn’t bother to answer. I had been driving for three hours and had completed only a quarter of the distance. The smug-sounding voice was clear enough when I picked up the voicemail at the next service station. “Are you anywhere nearby? Time for a quick brew here at Rock before we head back.”

The rain finally started coming down hard in Okehampton, Devon.

I was still an hour from my destination, Malone was safely back in London and Omorogbe well on her way back home to Portsmouth.

But that hare and tortoise parable wasn’t completely wrong. A tortoise carries its home on its back, right? Well I was in a VW Caravelle, equipped with everything I needed for a weekend away. In a helicopter and on a bike there is room only for a small holdall. I had body boards, folding chairs, picnic hamper, food for a small army and I could stretch out and sleep in the back. Just as well, really.


Janie Omorogbe: Honda VFR800
Filtering through traffic-clogged London, it was glaringly obvious that I had a distinct advantage over Rufford’s VW. But the helicopter . . . well I wasn’t so sure about that.

Once on the motorway I could pick up the pace but it wasn’t until I turned onto the twistier A303 that I started to have some fun. When planning my route, fun was as high on my list as beating Rufford, so I chose to go cross country rather than take the faster M4 and M5 three-lanes-all-the-way option. On a bike, the journey should be as much of an adventure as the destination.

There were still jams but I sailed through them, frequently catching the jealous eyes of motorists tapping their steering wheels. I am always amazed there are not more bikes on the road — and it seems odd that most folk would rather sit stationary in a car than have a bit of fun and make progress at the same time.

Then, abruptly, I was reminded of one of the reasons. One of the jams led directly to an accident. A motorcycle lay in an unrecognisable heap. A car was resting on the central reservation and as the police taped around the accident, I reminded myself that I wasn’t taking part in a race, just an experiment.

With two hours to go, I’d filled up with fuel once, the sunshine was a distant memory and the weather was closing in. I was tempted to stop, have a bite to eat and put a warmer jacket on, but images of Rufford in his mile-munching, bottomless pit of a petrol tank on wheels spurred me on.

All of a sudden out of the gloom rose the unmistakable silhouette of a helicopter, perched neatly on its pad. There, too, was Malone looking refreshed and slightly impatient. After a five-hour high-speed ride I was shattered. No matter how good the bike, riding for so long takes complete concentration and no matter how good the leathers you can’t help but seek the cosy comfort of shelter.

Malone showed little sympathy.

He said he had to make it back to London before tea time, and took off for the return journey. My heart sank. I’d come second, but it was 5pm, foggy and cold, and I was hungry. Portsmouth was a four-hour ride away.


Pat Malone: Robinson R44

Either I win this race or I don’t finish. That’s not petulance on my part — not this time, anyway. That’s the way of it with helicopters. Nothing that crawls on four wheels or two can stick with a vehicle that flies at 140mph in a straight line — once you get off the ground.

Bad weather is the biggest killer of pilots. Pressing on in cloud and rain, groping around in mist and fog among treetops and power lines, losing control when you can no longer work out which way is up — every helicopter pilot knows the risks.

So a pilot watches the weather like a mongoose watches a cobra. I’d been following the detailed forecasts on the Met Office’s aviation website for three days — and guess what? It being a bank holiday, there was a front coming in from the west, bearing all sorts of filth. And so, on the gorgeous sunny morning we left London the forecast for St Mawgan airfield, five miles from Rock, was for relentless deterioration. By 4pm there would be drizzle, low cloud and poor visibility; by 6pm the fog would be as thick as your arm.

Never mind outrunning my fellow racers — could I outrun the front? My secret weapon was Quentin Smith, one of Britain’s most experienced helicopter pilots, a dauntless chap who has flown a helicopter twice around the world and to both Poles and whose skill and judgment far exceed my own. Smith agreed to come along, but he was in charge of his three-year-old son Maximus for the day and he would have to come too.

First I had to get from Wapping, east London, to Denham airfield, west London, where Smith’s HeliAir company has its base. As part of some arbitrary handicapping exercise I had to take public transport, so while Omorogbe shot off on the bike and Rufford disappeared with the VW, I trudged off flapping at taxis.

Thanks to the congestion zone we made the airport in 70 minutes flat, where our Robinson R44 was ready for the off.

Flying a helicopter is a lot easier than driving a car. It has no brakes or gears, there are no bends, traffic lights, speed limits, contraflows, middle-lane hoggers or caravans. With a helicopter you just push the stick in whichever direction you want to go and look out the window. You never have as far to go, either. The straight-line distance from Denham to Rock is 191 miles, compared with 238 by road.

After lift-off, Heathrow refused us a direct track through its airspace — too busy — so I flew up to High Wycombe to get around it, then cut across to Marlow, where a farmer had carved the words “Vote Tory” in 50ft letters in his oilseed rape. According to the GPS, Rock was 160 nautical miles distant, bearing 254 degrees, but wisps of cirrus warned of the coming front.

Our track took us close to the edge of the military exclusion zone on Salisbury Plain, where soldiers rush about shooting things and the air is filled with lead. We could see a great gout of flame and smoke on the ranges to our left, and out to the right was the sinister profile of an Apache helicopter gunship. We were worried. Flying between an Apache and its target is like stepping between a rabid wolverine and its dinner. Nervously we radioed the military airfield at Boscombe Down, confirmed that they had us on radar, and knew that we came in peace.

By now it was a grey day, with lowering cloud and a marked decrease in visibility. Smith suggested we could fly to the coast where the weather would be more manageable, but we never came to the decision point; after 95 minutes in the air the twin peaks of Bodmin Moor swam out of the gloom, and seven minutes later we were on the ground at estate agent John Bray’s helipad overlooking the Camel Estuary at Rock.

It was 2.52pm. Elapsed time from Wapping was 2hr 52min; from Denham, 1hr 42min. Now we just had to wait for Omorogbe, get our picture taken and get back to London. I was busy in London the next day, but more importantly, on the orders of his mother, Maximus Smith absolutely had to be home by his bedtime.

But Omorogbe did not come. Gloomier and gloomier became the day. Could she have met with a mishap? The air ambulance had been called to a motorcycle accident on the A30 . . . it couldn’t be . . .

And it wasn’t. At 4.47pm, five minutes short of two hours after we’d landed, she roared up, chilly, tired and traffic-weary. We stayed only long enough for a brief gloat, then fired up and ran like rabbits. Back in London, with Maximus tucked up in bed, I called Rufford. He was at a petrol station in Okehampton. It was getting a bit foggy.



WINNING AT ALL COSTS

The helicopter: Robinson R44 Astro
Time to Rock: 2hr 52min. To buy: £185,000. To insure: £8,000-£9,000 p/a. To service: £2,500. Cost to Rock: £100 in fuel plus £15 landing fee

The bike: Honda VFR 800 VTEC with ABS
Time to Rock: 5hr. To buy: £8,499. Insurance: £693. Servicing: £90. Cost to Rock: £29.07 (fuel economy: 33mpg @ 84p per litre)

The camper: VW Caravelle 2.5 SE TDI
Time to Rock: 8hr. To buy: £27,250. To insure: £630. To service: £195.52. Cost to Rock £29.21 (Fuel economy: 34.4mpg @ 88p per litre diesel)


Copyright 2005 Times Newspapers Ltd.

[Bravo73]

Great article but I'm not so sure that:Flying a helicopter is a lot easier than driving a car.

:confused:

[Tony Chambers]

great article but why depart from denham, 70 mins in a cab? Should have departed from battersea maybe that would have been better.

[BossEyed]

great article but why depart from denham, 70 mins in a cab?
Explained by:

As part of some arbitrary handicapping exercise I had to take public transport
However, Pat - I'm not sure you have too much altitude above the moral high ground about another broadsheet's "Bandits at 12 O'Clock" spin with lines like:

We could see a great gout of flame and smoke on the ranges to our left,
and out to the right was the sinister profile of an Apache helicopter gunship.
We were worried. Flying between an Apache and its
target is like stepping between a rabid wolverine and its dinner. :O

Of course, in the spirit of 'Yes, Minister' we understand that:

I simplify things for the reader;

whilst:

YOU inject dramatic colour;

whilst:

HE misprepresents reality to exaggerate for journalistic effect :}

[chopperchav]

Flying between an Apache and its target is like stepping between a rabid wolverine and its dinner.

Wow. How low were you flying?

I flew similar route on Friday down to Devon and had to swerve a few sams on the way. Man that area is hot!

[Pat Malone]

I apologise. Some of my best friends are rabid wolverines.

[Tony Chambers]

Could taking a cab to battersea be seen as using public transport, rather than the much longer public transport journey to Denham? That was my angle sorry if not clear.
The smoke on SP was probably a BBQ and the apache was probably a cardboard cut out lol.

[thecontroller]

This looks like another advert for HeliAir to me.

[Thomas coupling]

£2500/annum running costs - what?

What planet are you on?

It's all very well giving joe average the impression that taking to helos is a piece of p**s, but it isn't. We all know what happens when Joe average flies helos, don't we?
Joe/Joanne above average flies helos doesnt he/she?
They are more conscientious, more thorough, more astute than joe average:ooh:
You have to remain very focused when flying one of these machines and joanne average doesn't. It's too much like hard work, isn't it?

Helos bite - big time.

Pat, I'm all for you pushing the helo as an alternative means of transport, but tell people the truth the whole truth and blah blah blah......
They are NOT easy to fly - safely.
They are VERY expensive to maintain and insure and run. [Unless you are a millionaire].
They are not as versatile as land transport in the UK for getting from A to B throughout the year - IF you have to guarantee getting there?

Is any of the above an exageration?

[Pat Malone]

Thomas Coupling:
I know that we helicopter pilots like to consider ourselves to be superhuman, but unfortunately we're not. Flying a helicopter calls for skills on a par with riding a bicycle. In terms of motor functions, any average Joe or Jane can fly a helicopter.
Safety has a little to do with skill and a lot to do with judgement. There's very little to stop people with poor judgement progressing through the ranks of helicopter pilots. I wouldn't have trusted some of the commercial pilots or instructors I've known with anything more dangerous than a plastic spoon. Didn't stop them making a living.
I don't want to burst your bubble or let the cat out of the bag with the public, but we're no better than the next guy.

As to the expense, it's all relative. Here in the UK we have never in history bought more yachts, Porsches and Ferraris, more exotic holidays, more second homes, and we've never had more leisure time.
There are hundreds of thousands of very rich people out there, and we're not attracting enough of them into this industry.

[212man]

Maybe we could merge this thread with the one about gold bars, as that seems to have gone down the 'taxi driver' avenue. Maybe with my bicycling skill levels I could become a Rickshaw driver!

[DBChopper]

Pat,

Surely you must have at least offered Janie a lift back in the '44?

:E

[Pat Malone]

DB:
You're on the right track. Regrettably she was loth to dump the bike in the hedge.

[DBChopper]

Opportunity missed mate - I'd have picked the bike up for you (least I could do ;)

DB

[Thomas coupling]

Pat - you 'smear' right across this industry with your broad brush response and insult the intelligence of those who fly helicopters in general.
Flying a helicopter is NOT, repeat, NOT easy. Unless you want to describe getting from A to B as a basic means of propulsion.
To fly the thing PROPERLY, requires co-ordination / spatial awareness / responsiveness / logical application / problem solving / spacial awareness / application / spatial awareness.
I believe the only common ground with a bicycle is:
co-ordination?

And all of this just to fly a hughes 269 perhaps. The most basic of all helos?

How many 'normal' members of the public are able to apply all of these SKILLS simultaneously?

I would grant that physically poling the machine once you've been taught the basics - is relatively easy, but flying it in anger, planning the flight, naving cross country trying to DR, talking to ATC, complying with the rules, catering for the weather, day and night - requires somthing a little more than riding your f**king push bike to work and back!

Now comes the crunch - even IF this could be comfortably absorbed by all your neighbours.....
what sorts the men out from the boys (or in your analogy: pilots from the pushbikers), is when something goes wrong.
Don't tell me Mrs Dalgleish, the chaplains wife can cater for a donk stop in the climb out from her vicarage helipad in piddle trenthide at 200' 40kts in her R22:{
Or a hydraulic failure in an AS350, with suspected fire on board...

Of course, a week earlier she did suffer a front wheel blow out whilst braking hard entering her parish on her bicycle - and stayed upright :ooh:

'Most' normally adjusted folk could survive a PPL(H), but thats just the entry ticket to a much bigger challenge - and dont tell me otherwise, sunshine.
If it was that easy, everybody with a moderate income would group together and be acting out one of their fantasies - flying helos! They don' t because they can't! And the evidence supports it: If it was that 'easy' we'd have every crappy motorist having a stab at flying and the AAIB would be busier than IKEA on a promotion day!

Moving on: I read a previous article you'd edited and again you misled the general public on running costs. £2500 wouldnt buy you a bloody set of manuals for any decent helo, never mind a years worth of servicing??? Try adding a zero eh?

I say again - promote the industry by all means, but don't UNDERSELL it. Tell it as it is.

[I've got 2000hrs mil instructor under my belt. I 've chopped more students than I care to remember. These were the best civvy street could offer and many of them didn't even get thru basic flying training on the helo...what does that say about your theory?]

there's very little to stop those with poor judgement working their way thru the ranks of helicopter pilot

Really? In all honesty, Pat, where are they now then...I don't see them. They never made it Pat. They either fail the course, rarely get airborne, or die shortly thereafter.

[Head Bolt]

TC is right on the money with his comments.

Whilst Pat has a point that most people have the basic motor skills to physically manipulate the controls, this is only part of 'flying' a helicopter, and TC's comments are quite right.

Not everyone can 'operate' a helicopter in an environment with other people around, and get from A to B, and be a good boy while they are at it.

The article is misleading in the extreme with regard to costs, and does seem to be a bit of a promotion for Heli-Air; Pat is even wearing their cap for the photo shoot. Has this influenced the figures given, perhaps?

If anyone is promoting helicopters, which we all do in one way or another, then all the facts must be given correctly, cos if it's in the paper, it must be right, mustn't it?

[Bravo73]

Hear, hear, TC.

[DBChopper]

My God , guys - when did PPRuNe get so bloody angry ?

An article appears in the press which shows general aviation and, in particular helicopters, in a good light. It is obviously meant as a light read - entertainment. It glosses over the details. It is light-hearted. It was written in a newspaper and not a technical publication, least of all a flying magazine.

Yes, it is simple in its approach, but clearly by design. It is not aimed at helicopter pilots, however many thousands of hours they have, whether civil or military, however many would-be's they have "chopped."

If it makes one person think, "that sounds like fun" and pop in to enquire about lessons, at Heliair or Harry's Helis - and forgive me for sticking my neck out - isn't that a good thing? If the costs of running and maintaining a helicopter are more than quoted then I'm sure the Times reader in question will find out about that before handing over the dosh for their new helicopter, or simply head back home on their bicycle. If the skills needed are greater in fact than those needed to ride a bicycle (which I suspect was an example of the acquisistion of motor skills, rather than a direct comparison), then I'm sure he or she will discover this during the very early stages of training, as does every other PPL(H) student.

Last of all guys, if you are going to get angry, insulting, personal, and going to sit hammering vitriol into your keyboards, make it at something (with respect, Pat) a little more important than an article in Sunday paper, about a leisure activity.

[Heliport]

An article appears in the press which shows general aviation and, in particular helicopters, in a good light. It is obviously meant as a light read - entertainment. It glosses over the details. It is light-hearted. It was written in a newspaper and not a technical publication, least of all a flying magazine.

Yes, it is simple in its approach, but clearly by design. It is not aimed at helicopter pilots .......

If it makes one person think, "that sounds like fun" and pop in to enquire about lessons, at Heliair or Harry's Helis - and forgive me for sticking my neck out - isn't that a good thing?Well put and yes, IMHO, it is.

And, while we discuss the issues, let's bear in mind that Pat Malone is on our side. He's a talented journo who uses every opportunity he gets to promote general aviation, and the helicopter industry in particular.

[ThomasTheTankEngine]

I think some of you under extimate the skill which is involved in rideing a bike.

I have nearly 30 hours with my cycling instructor and he tells me as soon as I have done my cycling prof test theory and completed my medical I will be going solo. With stabalizers of course.

[Whirlybird]

Don't tell me Mrs Dalgleish, the chaplains wife can cater for a donk stop in the climb out from her vicarage helipad in piddle trenthide at 200' 40kts in her R22

But who's to say she can't LEARN to?

I learned to fly helicopters. I'm nothing special. I probably have above average intelligence (so they tell me), but my coordination's never been that great, and although I now joke about how untechnically-minded I was, it wasn't without some truth. I didn't find flying easy, but then, I didn't find driving or learning to ride a bike that easy either...yes, I DO remember both those. But it wasn't that difficult either. It required work, study, practice, and determination...and still does. And most people can have those, if they want to.

TC, I refuse to add to the overblown mystique of helicopter pilots. Too many people think we're all gods or super-people anyway...and we're not. It really is not all that difficult to learn to fly a helicopter. Getting out of some of the situations that people doing your sort of job could find themselves in may be. But that wasn't what Pat was talking about. Learning to fly well enough to get from A to B, in reasonable weather, at a safe height, and stand a good chance of coping with an unlikely emergency, is what is required for what he was talking about. And that requires the skills learned in a PPL(H) course. And what's stopping everyone doing one? Money. And lack of interest. And the belief that they need to be a god or a super-person. That's all.

[ShyTorque]

All I can say is, that given a choice between flying a Robbo and spending five hours each way on Janie Omorogbe's pillion there's simply no contest.

Hey, Janie..... :E

I'd even offer to ride the bike back as long as she held on tightly :cool:

I'd even drive her back in the VW Camper.....

[Pat Malone]

Don't some of you guys worry about sounding pompous? Not to mention silly?
Sorry if you can't deal with it, Thomas Coupling, but you're not Superman. If I had a student with your mindset I'd sit him (or her) down and have a long chat about attitude - about how arrogance leads to accidents. I'd try to beat a little humility into him, get him to realise his shortcomings. Get off your high horse. You're not a brain surgeon or a concert pianist, you're a pilot, and any average joe can be taught to do what you do.
Anybody who believes to the contrary needs to address some self-esteem issues.

[thecontroller]

Hear hear, I know plenty of idiots who have PPLs and CPLs, that I wouldn't trust to drive me anywhere, let alone fly me.

[Hughes500]

Pat

You need to be better informed about mil flying, if any Joe can make it why do the mil have a 700 to 1 success rate. That is for every 700 people who apply to be an army pilot only one makes it ! That is a higher drop out rate than the SAS. As for your figures if that is what you have been told then you are very very nieve or never owned a machine. Rectifying some of the AD's would use up your £ 2500 - thought about your 12 year / 2200 hour rebuild at about £ 150000. Hm that is £12500 a year plus depreciation. If you are unlucky enough to have an R22 you will be spending a fortune changing blades due to corrosion !
Are you hoping to br Heliair sales rep ?

Nice one TC although you did go a bit OTT

[DBChopper]

Hughes500,

Did we read the same article?

What the hell has the military helicopter pilot dropout rate got to do with an item about enjoyable ways to travel during your leisure time? :confused:

It referred to normal, everyday people, flying simple helicopters, for pleasure. Nothing more. And at every helicopter school, at every airfield, on nice sunny days, you will see us nice, normal people doing exactly that :ok:

[Heliport]

Hughes500

By all means disagree as strongly as you like with Pat Malone's views, but there was no call for the offensive snide comment at the end.

Pat is a successful journalist and publisher - aviation being only one of the areas he covers. He used to instruct part-time (not at HeliAir, as far as I know) until he gave it up because of the demands of his main job, so I doubt if he'd want to give up his current business to become a helicopter salesman.

I can understand you not liking someone promoting Robinsons but, if features like his attract more people to learn to fly, instructors like yourself benefit - some will learn on a Hughes, and may even come to you. If affluent people read his feature and decide to charter a helicopter for their next long trip, professional pilots and operators benefit.

I don't suppose your animosity to PM has anything to do with him writing an article criticising the CAA for prosecuting an instructor who has an ongoing dispute with a customer of yours? (The customer whose arrogant and selfish disregard for his neighbours generated such adverse publicity for helicopters in the national press.)

_________________

It seems some people here would have been happier if the Sunday Times feature had pointed out to potential students that flying helicopters might seem like fun, but it's difficult, expensive and a potentially dangerous hobby.

Or that every single aspect of helicopter flying, starting with instruction, is fantastically expensive in the UK?

Or told potential charter customers of the old adage 'Time to spare, go by air'?

:confused:



(I happen to disagree with much of what Pat Malone has said in this discussion, but that's irrelevant.)

[Say again s l o w l y]

My, my what a load of ego's there seem to be here.

As has been said before, this is a good article that puts Heli's in a positive light in a major newspaper. How can that be a bad thing?

We may all have differing opinions about parts of it, but for god's sake get off your high horses.

Thomas Coupling, you seem to make a habit of producing angry and in my view non-sensical postings. This article was not about sky gods or however else you may wish to describe yourself, but about normal folk who may wish to use a heli for their own purposes, or do you want to keep this industry totally to yourself?

To be totally honest, speaking as a CFI, CPL(H), ATPL(A) and all round superhero (in my own mind admittedly) this flying lark is not as difficult as you are trying to make out. Maybe it is for you, but I really quite enjoy it. It's challenging certainly, but there are other things that I find harder, such as trying to plaster a wall properly.

One last thing, Mil pilots are usually good handling pilots, but if they all had an ego like yours they would be the last people I'd want to sit next to. Luckily all the best crews I've worked with have never had this issue. Something about letting their actions do the talking I believe.

[headsethair]

Ah, DB. You are naive. Don't you know that you can ONLY be a heli pilot if you've been trained at the taxpayer's expense ?

Here's Pat Malone doing a bit of PR for the industry. (And by "industry" I mean funded on a commercial basis or with private money.) And, just like motoring journos and others, he has to remember that he is writing for a wide audience. He has to use general terms.
Out here in the real world (where people like TC hardly ever venture) there's a whole GA heli industry struggling to survive against increasing regulation, higher expenses and tw*ts like TC who preach that light singles (and particularly Robinsons) are not safe. Take a look at the CAA CHIRP and find the true story about light single safety and reliability.
I wonder if TC has ever wondered why the failure rate in mil training is so high ? Could it be the quality of instruction ? Could it be the time/budget pressure ? Could it possibly be bad filtering of applicants ?
In the real world a potential student turns up and is told how much the process will cost THEM in minimum terms. That immediately clears out all those who are not totally dedicated. Then, when they've gone past 20 hrs and still can't hold a hover, there's another weeding out.
However, if you're prepared to stick at it and keep handing over your money, you will reach the correct standard and you will become a helicopter pilot. That applies to about 98% of the able-bodied, clear thinking population.
Of course the likes of TC have a vested interest in protecting the mystique of helicopter pilots. Take a trip around The Derby this weekend and count the shoulder stripes, the shades and the swagger.
Don't get me wrong - I do believe that good helicopter pilots are hard working, multi-skilled, intelligent and very well trained. But whether the licence says PPL or CPL or ATPL is irrelevant. Whether privately or taxpayer funded is irrelevant. It's the training, experience and character that matters - to fly well in our airspace you have to remain open-minded and have an ability to consider those around you.
The worry about TC is he just seems too blinkered to be a good pilot. Do you think he really exists or is he on here just to wind up other ppruners ?;)

[ThomasTheTankEngine]

Put simply flying a helicopter is a motorized skill, Which most people can learn. All it take's is money, practice, hard work and experiance, The more experiance the better it get's, ie judgement and recogniseing your limit's get's better with expeiance.

You don't have to be superman or superwoman.

For TC you say you've failed lots of students over the years, In eight years of instruction I've only had to tell 3 or 4 people that flying wasn't for them. Maybe that's the differance with the mil & the civil side of thing's or maybe you need to address your method's of instruction.

[Vfrpilotpb]

I read the article in the ST with great interest, it was a bit glossy and skipped some of the possible importants bits, like cots and time to train for the PPL(H) and then the need to have many hours of NavEx and handling in order to be able to be confidente and GOOD enough to take a pax.

Normally most people who take the route of PPL(H) are the better off , or at least have the ability to get hold of funds which arent really required to be spent on new shoes and dress's, however that is where the difference is between PPL(H) and some of you more SUPER types who always seem to look on and make disdainful comments about the lower ranks of the Helicopter Pilots, One thing that we all have is the ability and training to be called a HELICOPTER PILOT, some of us do it purely for fun, some of us are lucky enough to use it daily or weekly in connection with our business's, some of US are paid to fly a helicopter much like a Bus Driver who travell's up and down the A6 or Edgeware Road.

What binds us all together whether you like it of not is the word PILOT,

Some of you were trained totally free courtesy of US, the TAX payer's, you have benefitted through the free training to now have a reasonablty secure job, paid quiet possibly for not even flying some time's.

We lowley pilots who occupy the lower perches in the Helicopter Tree have the same basic knowledge of what you SUPER men do, like it or not that is why the CAA set a basic test for new pilots to take part in.

What seperates us all, is EXPERIENCE, you super dooper CPLs have loads of hours that equates to experience, we lower hour jockeys have our enthusiasm and the will to carry on learning from every flight and indeed from every conversation on forums such as this one.

To any one of you multi thousand hour pilots I doff my cap to you, but I bet your weekly wage I can beat any of you driving a landrover over unmade terrain, I have 35 years of this experience , so if you really want to be Super Hero types and have the respect that you rightfully deserve learn about Humility, it is one attribute that cannot be taught in any class room>

I hope Pat Malone write many more pieces about Helicopters, It will not sway me one jot that he may be doing it for Harrys Helicopter INC Plc, what it means is us the pilots lower down the ladder will see that Helicopters may be more acceptable in our back fields!!

Certain people made comment about the AAC drop out rate, if TC was one of their instructors, the Student could fail by not bowing before entering said cab, TC I feel your comment about "CHOPPING" stands as a good indicator of your level of understanding, added to that the AAC have only certain hours allowable to train and normal grunt to fly something that initially is very demanding, so sitting with God bellowing in the ear cups is bound to have a deliterious effect on the Student pilots nerve!

Call me old fashioned, but patience is a Virtue always found in women, Never found in men, so perhaps the AAC should have female instructers!

Peter R-B
Vfr

Pat, I look forward to your next Sunday Times Flight Story

[Hughes500]

Heliport Etc

My reply was in defence of TC and Pat Malones very OTT comments about him. Tc was only teling the truth. I have no problem with Robinson products providing they are used for what they were designed to do.
What I do have a problem with is Pat's typical jorno half truths. The running costs on these things are far far greater than he portrays.

As for an ongoing dispute one of my customers is having it did not even cross my mind.

Three cheers for Pat Malone in bring helis to everyones attention, but do not mislead people in how much these things cost. I m sure none of us want to have the same reputation as second hand car salesmen or estate agents, which ios where we will ultimately go !

I had no intended to be too OTT, Heliport if I have please accept my apologies to both you and Pat

H500

[ShyTorque]

There are a number of differences between military flying training and that found in the civilian world, and in the "chop rate" simply because the requirements are quite different.

I'm not claiming that military pilots are superheroes. However, there is a large difference in the ability and capacity levels required to fly for recreation in a simple, single engined helicopter and those required of a military pilot flying a large, complicated helicopter full of troops or weapons, at extremely low altitude and high speed, into a tactical situation - especially so in poor weather conditions or by night. Similar for those abilities required to operate an Anti-submarine or Search and Rescue helicopter.

It should be remembered that even to get selected for a military flying training scheme, a candidate will have undergone close scrutiny during a highly competitive selection process. Not everyone has the mix of abilities required, it's a plain fact, or there would be a NIL drop out rate and no need for a selection process.

Someone has pointed out that military training is at the taxpayer's expense. Because of this, the training system HAS to provide the best pilot product for the money and it is very much geared to avoid failure at a late stage, when the training becomes considerably more expensive per hour (and a very large amount of public money will have been invested). Military students are only given a small amount of flex hours, especially in the very early stages of training, before their continuation on the course is put under formal review.

Certainly in my time, a student was immediately considered for review if a trip was failed (i.e. didn't perform to the required levels of the syllabus, which is laid out for the instructor in writing). He would refly the trip, probably with a different instructor or flight commander. If this was also not up to the standard required, he would be formally interviewed, told why he was on review and given a small number of hours (5?) while his overall performance was reviewed. If it was unsatisfactory, he would be required to fly with the Chief Instructor, which was sometimes the student's last trip in the system (the dreaded "Chop Ride").

Civilian flying schools operate under a quite different regime to this. While the instruction given at most is very good indeed, it has to be borne in mind that they do exist to make money by providing a service to a paying customer. They therefore have the flexibility to accommodate the requirements of a much wider spectrum of abilities.

[Pat Malone]

Hughes500:
My own cost analysis is based on Robinson ownership and I was lucky enough to make a profit on my last one, without creative accounting.
As to my "typical jorno half truths", the costs panel in the ST story was actually written by a sub-editor who did his own research; nonetheless I agree with his figures. If there's an unused Astro out there it would probably sell for £185,000. Insurance is between £8 and £9K, and servicing runs around £2,500 a year - obviously depending on level of usage, star annuals and luck. The cost of fuel for the flight was what I paid, plus the landing fee at Bodmin.
There is no claim that this represents the entire cost of helicopter ownership, any more than the figures for the Honda or the VW represent the full cost of bike or car ownership. It's merely a guide, and a good one at that.

[Thomas coupling]

Let's just agree to disagree Pat?

I can't be bothered to respond to some of these comments - it's too late in the day, I've just come away (relatively unscathed) from a CAA audit and it's been a long week.

It's certainly stimulated the conversation.

Each to their own.:hmm:

[Vfrpilotpb]

Hey TC, do I smell broken glass:p

PR-B
Vfr

[Arkroyal]

Tc

And while you're away perhaps you could try to retrieve your head from another part of your anatomy.

Such arrogant twaddle.

****e'awk's view is somewhat more balanced.

The military requirement is far greater than the civvie's wish to fly a robbie for fun (not that I'd ever want to....bloody horrid things).

Perhaps I shouldn't own a motor bike because I'll never be able to ride it as well as Valentino Rossi.

But I'm sure he doesn't find his manhood threatened by every bloke who buys a bike.

[Whirlybird]

Just for the record guys, I've met TC, and he's a pussycat! And a pussycat with a brain too; he talks a lot of sense about most things, and has given me good advice in the past. :ok: I dunno just what happens to him when he gets on Rotorheads. :confused: :confused: :confused:

TC, now you don't mind my spilling the beans, do you? ;) And calling you a pussycat was meant as a compliment, honest!!!!

[headsethair]

Oh Whirly. You've gone and spoilt his whole brand. :O

[ThomasTheTankEngine]

There are differance between civil and mil helicopter training requirements.

But I would say Pat's article (Although inacurate) was not aimed at recruiting pilot for Her Magesty The Queen.

A few other people said he was just recruiting for Heliair. This is normal buisness if I can recruit for my company in the paper (Free advertising) I would. Wouldn't you?

[Flying Lawyer]

Someone writes an article for a national circulation Sunday newspaper in which he promotes the helicopter industry - and he get's criticised for not concentrating enough on the negatives!

In his piece for the Sunday Times feature, Pat Malone wrote: Flying a helicopter is a lot easier than driving a car.
He gave as his reasons: “It has no brakes or gears, there are no bends, traffic lights, speed limits, contraflows, middle-lane hoggers or caravans. With a helicopter you just push the stick in whichever direction you want to go and look out the window. “
Could it be he assumed people who buy the Sunday Times would realise he didn't mean his assertion to be taken literally? He wasn’t writing for the Sun or the Mirror.
In any event, he started off with the down-sides: See his opening paragraphs. Do they really give the impression that flying helicopters is something any Jack or Jill could do? Would his description of the reality of flying around the UK tempt someone not even comfortable driving in bad conditions to take up helicopter flying?

TC says: “They are not as versatile as land transport in the UK for getting from A to B throughout the year - IF you have to guarantee getting there?”
True. But wasn't that clear from PM's opening words: “Either I win this race or I don’t finish …….. Nothing on four wheels or two can stick with a vehicle that flies at 140mph in a straight line — once you get off the ground.”
He then described the weather problems with which anyone who flies in the UK without an IR is all to familiar and, having looked at the forecast, persuaded a more experienced professional pilot to go with him as a precaution.
And then pointed out that, having got to the destination, they couldn’t wait there very long because of the weather - QS had to get home that evening, and PM in time for work the next day.

TC and PM, both of whose posts I always enjoy reading, have been a little extreme here – but both enjoy provoking a discussion.
IMHO, TC misses the point. The standard needed even to earn your basic military ‘wings’ is in a completely different league from that required to pass a PPL - but military standards aren’t necessary to fly safely as a recreational pilot.
PPLs fly helicopters; professional pilots (military and civvy) operate them. IMHO, there’s an enormous difference between the two.
Maybe TC has overstated his argument but, on the other hand, anyone who suggests someone good enough to get a PPL could necessarily achieve the standard required to get his/her military wings, even with extra training from a patient instructor, is IMHO very mistaken.

I read the article and assumed HeliAir provided the aircraft and got mentioned in return. Even if that's true, so what? There’s nothing unusual about that.
I read Headbolt's post and assumed it was sour grapes by someone with a financial interest, ownership or instructor, in another helicopter school. (If he's not, he can correct me.)
Anyone promoting helicopters must give all the facts correctly
Really? That would be a first for anyone promoting anything.
People selling, or hoping to, should of course give the facts truthfully. Just like all flying schools tell all potential students about all the little ‘extras’ they’ll have to pay during their training, ;)

Maintenance Costs
I assumed from the layout that the ‘competitors’ didn’t write that part. PM says he didn't; the other two might have because there were references to their car and bike reviews.
However, accurate figures or not, would anyone really go out and buy a helicopter on the strength of a few lines in a light-hearted, non-specialist, feature in a weekend paper? Without doing any further research?

PM says (on this thread) “As to the expense, it's all relative. Here in the UK we have never in history bought more yachts, Porsches and Ferraris, more exotic holidays, more second homes, and we've never had more leisure time. There are hundreds of thousands of very rich people out there, and we're not attracting enough of them into this industry.”
Isn’t that the point?
Isn’t that where such features in the non-aviation media help the helicopter industry by promoting public awareness? If the article encourages even one ST reader to look into learning or buying, people somewhere in the industry may benefit.

In stark contrast to the Sunday Times article, if I didn't already fly helicopters and came across this thread while looking into the idea, I think I might be tempted to take up sailing instead.

(Edit)

TTTE
Pat Malone is a journalist and helicopter enthusiast.
I think he instructed years ago at one of the Redhill schools. To the best of my knowledge, he's never work for HeliAir.

[Thomas coupling]

Having found the time to review all these latest entries, I will put my hand up and accept that I was OTT with my response.
The mil bit certainly clouded the issue.
I certainly didnt wish to convey that there was a link between mil pilots and the great unwashed - God forbid:ooh:
What I was trying to convey there albeit badly, was that even before these mil ab initio pilots even progressed to the stage where they had to use the helo in anger (advance flying training) they were still crumbling at a stage where basic helo flying was being taught.

Nor was I establishing a link between helicopter pilots (who fly for social reasons only) and 'professional' pilots (in the true sense of the word).

I firmly remain convinced that anyone who can master a chunk of complicated heavy metal, capable of killing you, steer it in the right direction with a map in one hand (ooops!) whilst talking to others, time after time - is better equipped (mentally) than jo average. Nothing (in my experience) will change that view.

[Whirlybird]

anyone who can master a chunk of complicated heavy metal, capable of killing you, steer it in the right direction with a map in one hand (ooops!) whilst talking to others, time after time - is better equipped (mentally) than jo average.

Millions do it every day of the week; have a look at any motorway!

OK, before you say it, there are a few differences. Car drivers can stop to look at their maps. If the engine or some other essential bit quits, they simply roll to a halt. And if they don't like the weather, they carry on regardless, or stop for a cup of tea.

OTOH, your helicopter pilot doesn't have zillions of other people zooming along at 70+ mph, inches away from him/her. If he's lost, he can ask a nice person on the radio to tell him where to go. If he really doesn't like the weather, he can plonk his machine in a field...which is probably safer than the motorway hard shoulder.

All of that is pretty much what Pat said in his article, so I won't bother going on.

[Flying Lawyer]

"have a look at any motorway!"
Yes indeed. (Or any other road for that matter.) :eek:
The majority of drivers lack the ability to think outside the box even when doing something as simple as driving a car.
"OK ..... there are a few differences."
Yes, just a few.

Do you really believe that flying a helicopter, even in ideal conditions, is no more difficult than drivng a car?
That anyone who can learn to do one can necessarily learn to do the other?
That anyone with sufficient coordination to drive a car has sufficient coordination to fly a helicopter?

I appreciate you were using your writer's flair to make your point, but many drivers do actually see motorway driving as some death-defying experience with "zillions of other people zooming along at 70+ mph, inches away from him/her". Just like those, or the same people as, who 'hate all those big lorries' on motorways - so lacking in confidence and competence they fail to realise that drivers of the big artics are amongst the safest and most skilled drivers on the road.

Do you really believe that sort of person would be up to flying a helicopter safely - and coping with a problem while still remembering to fly the helicopter - even if they could be taught by some patient instructor just enough to get through a PPL course?
I'd have some reservations about flying in a fixed-wing with someone like that, but I certainly wouldn't feel safe in a helicopter flown by one of them - just in case we had a problem which they'd promptly turn into an emergency, and I'd end up as 'The Passenger' in the AAIB's fatal accident report.

I'm not suggesting people who can fly helicopters, whether operationally or otherwise, are some superhuman breed who could do anything they chose to do better than ordinary mortals. Far from it. But we do have certain characteristics/skills which others with different characteristics/skills may not. (And vice versa, obviously.)

It's true that not many people fail a PPL course, but I suspect that's only because those who would fail don't even consider learning to fly. We tend to enjoy the things we're good at, and to be good at the things we enjoy. If we know we wouldn't be good at and/or enjoy some activity, we tend not to do it - unless we have to for some reason.

Arguing that anyone could be taught to fly helicopters is like saying anyone could be taught to be an artist. We might be able to learn to use some elementary techniques but, if we don't have at least some natural flair in our make-up, we could never be an artist.

[attackattackattack]

All the points about the difference between the Military and civilian environments that have been made so far are valid. But the key point in the military system (particularly the UK) is one of budget.

In the military system one of the key questions that is asked about any trainee pilot is not whether he/she will be able to operate the aircraft safely and effectively in the demanding environment of war but whether he/she can be taught to do so in a (very) restricted timescale. If I recall correctly the slack available to a pilot in the training system (UK Army) was no more than 7 hours in a total schedule of 200. If the trainee had issues that would take longer than that to solve he would be binned. I bel;ieve a great deal of the 'military flying is hard' ethos comes directly from this time/budget pressure in the training system. Although I confess I wouldn't be happy doing a Cat III NVG sortie (formation, night, low level) with a journeyman PPL>