Illawarra Regional Airport Two

[AVateher]

Sunfish,

I disagree with you

Who else in this country has more to gain by attacking the labour party?
& has instant access to the media

John Brodgen!!!!!!

[YIPYIO]

The catalina took off this afternoon from 08 at YWOL and suffered a partial engine failure. The aircraft returned for an immediate landing where both engines were shut down on the runway (which it fouled for 40 minutes with 16/34 closed) and had to be towed back to the hangar!:mad: Should this be a timely warning about these old pieces of crap flying over built-up areas or do we just wait blindly until the inevitable happens?:\

[Ultra]

Dear Woomera,

With due respect to Mssrs Aerowasp - enough is enough! Please close down this thread and block any similar, in future.

First, the "Wollongong" post, then "Illawarra Regional Airport", now "....Two." I estimate more than 250 posts have been expended on this topic.

While I'm sure there are many who feel for his/her/their plight in their personal battles with Council, they've had more than their fair go on this topic and surely enough public exposure has now been had?

In the last 4(?) months, this group have exploited this public, anonymous forum to the full, having mounted a well-orchestrated and relentless program to keep this topic close to the top of the page. No "Sticky" label was ever needed and the labour/liberal/democrat propaganda teams would be proud to add them to their incumbents!

Adding that such a plan of attack may have been prompted and executed by more than just one organisation with a personal axe to grind.
The interests of a significant anti-noise lobby in the local area may have also been served.

The quandary for PPRuNe and its projected audience (as I see it), is that while one operator and its group of professional pilots is disenfranchised by a particular set of events, a major regional area will have a new air route serviced by a regional airline employing another group of professional pilots. So whose interests should PPRuNe serve in this case?

Adding that to prolong this thread may be aiding another interest group opposed to the fundamentals which PPruNe serves.

The new Qantaslink service is only days from commencing, surely it would now be in the greater interest (in the context of what PPruNe is about) to close down all related threads on this topic and for the Aerowasp team to air their concerns in another manner.

Messrs Aerowasp, I mean you no malice, but surely even you can understand that a bi-partisan 'fair go' has now been exhausted on you?

Regards,
Ultra.

[Sunfish]

With the greatest of respect Ultra, I fail to understand the connection between Qantas and Aerowasp. Are you seriously saying that it is ethical to sacrifice Aerowasp's apparently legitimate complaints on the basis that it could compromise Qantas flights, perhaps flights being flown by you?

Either the council behaviour is or isn't corrupt.

Either the runways are or aren't acceptable for QF.

There are or are not apparent safety breaches connected with the operation of the airport.

I live in Melbourne and have not the slightest connection with Wollongong or Aerowasp, but I am learning heaps from the previous thread about airport management, aviation business management practices, old warbirds and permit indexes, and of course pavement strengths.

I would have also thought the thread was an opportunity, if the facts are to be believed, to offer moral support to an aviation business fighting for its existence.

To put it another way Ultra mate, what are you going to do when the local council decides they have had enough of your favourite flying club?

I can't wait to read the next episode. Please keep the thread running.:ok:

[jokova]

Please Woomera, do not be influenced by sectarian malice and the one-eyed appeal of 'Ultra' to you to apply the gag. As others have just said, this topic is a valuable one for those able to discern the valid concerns from the highly emotive rabble at the back of the hall. There are many object lessons to be deduced and when the history comes to be reviewed and maybe documented then, (should the author knows his onions), it will deserve to be a best seller.

Please YIPYIO, do not refer to the Catalina as "an old piece of crap". You may, by dint of such an inflammatory insult, put yourself at risk of being drawn into the investigation of the recent desecration of several Australian war memorials. Will you send me a PM so that I may post off to you copies of the books 'Catalina Chronicle' and 'Catalina Dreaming', so that you may perhaps gain some appreciation of what this aeroplane signifies to those of us imbued with a sense of enormous sacrifices past? (Ones that in comparison make some of the petty wrangles aired here seem at times not just pathetic and churlish but insane.) I speak of course of the defence of Australia and of the lives that were lost to this end.

[Malfunction Junction]

Hey Ultra.....if you've had enough of the thread; don't read it!;)
The way I see it, this thread wouldn't have started again if there weren't some real issues worthy of posting....it is a reality that it has encompassed several spheres of concern within the local community; not just the demise of one aviation organisation. Pretty arrogant of you to think that our industry is being best served by liars, cheats and corrupt public servants! I reckon anything that can expose some of the rorts, some of the back-handed deals and some of the blatant ripping off of the public purse can only be a good thing so keep it flowing! :ok:

[YIPYIO]

Nobody is suggesting that the contribution of the Catalina (and her crews) in wartime was anything but heroic and worthwhile. They were a marvellous piece of kit in their day and must be remembered as part of our war history - couldn't agree more! Might come as no surprise, but some of us know the history of this fine machine only too well and have taken the time to visit some of the special places associated with these machines, like Husskinson in NSW etc but, that does not stop this example being a piece of crap! To remain in a safe flying condition, these machines require very rigorous maintenance schedules and special care and I don't see this happening in this case!:mad: When our old folk get past their use by date, we put them in a nursing home and all the grandkids and friends come avisiting once a week....we don't pull them out of their beds and expect them to run the 4 minute mile every other Sunday! Asking them to continue to perform every week would be commiting them to the grave sooner rather than later. I suggest the same is the case for the Catalina and its mates of the same ilk. Put them where everyone can see them but stop asking them to perform because sooner or later, like last Sunday, they will stop! And then we will really only have memories and pics to relate to!:\
Let them Rest In Peace! and stop subjecting the public to unnecessary risk for the sake of a few show ponies, who never flew ANYTHING in action, getting their cheap jollys!

[Wheeler]

Yippy, Its a shame to see all this political crap going on at WOL - its a great field with a lot of potential and some great operators. Must admit though, it does seem a bit scary to think of some of those antiques with engine failures over those lovely new houses they keep building right up to the perimeter. The again, are they really any more likely to have an EFATO than some of those scruffy old crappy singles we see hanging around there?

[YIPYIO]

Wheeler, great come back mate BUT I'd rather have 1 ton of 152 coming through my lounge room window than 50 tons of constellation anyday!:\
As mentioned many times previously; it's all about risk management, common sense and public safety.
:ok:

[Binoculars]

As somebody with absolutely no direct involvement in this matter, I firmly believe that this thread not only should not, but must not be closed. If only half the accusations here are accurate, the implications go way beyond the fate of one operator.

I trust that a journalist with a nose for a story is following this all the way, for on the evidence presented here, the population of the third largest (?) city in our largest state should be up in arms. I know that crikey.com.au is aware of the situation, and I hope this turns out to be a case where even having friends in the highest places is not enough to protect the corrupt.

I would be extremely interested to hear Ultra's justification for his pleading that the thread be shut down, apart from the rather weak one that we've heard it all and everybody's had a fair go. I'm glad Woodward and Bernstein weren't dissuaded by that sort of argument. What's your interest, Ultra?

To the other participants, please don't get sidetracked by romantic aviation history. In this case, that is irrelevant to the subject at hand. This is one of the best threads in Dunnunda's history; let's follow it through to the end.

[Wheeler]

Your right Yippy, It would make a bloodly big hole in your roof. Seem to recall seeing it at Bundy a couple of years back, when it had to be moved from one piece of 'pavement' in a hurry because it was apparently sinking. I bet they dont hang around too long on some parts of the 'pavement' at Wollongong either, which if I'm not mistaken, looks very much like the 'pavement' at Bundy. Then again, the Dashes don't seem to have any trouble there at all!

[Ultra]

I think the point has been missed...

The request I made (and I thought it was fairly clear) is not about the rights of individuals to voice their opinion. If it were, I wouldn't have limited my responses to only 3 posts - but how much air time is enough? This matter has received a lot of exposure already, without any impediment from the moderator or others with an opposing view. It's been permitted to re-generate beyond the normal 100 post limit in many forms by PPRuNE - all for the right, commendable reasons, but is a fair go on the soapbox, the great Aussie ideal, limitless and limited to only one point of view?

There are others in the aviation community equally entitled to coverage within these pages, within the representative scope provided by PPRuNE, who will be disadvantaged by the claims made here.

I repeat.... the plight of the affected operator in what appears to be a 'David and Goliath' battle is not lost on me, but on the face of it, in my attempt to take a balanced, un-emotive view of the topic, I ask why has this all occurred when other airport operators continue to co-exist with Council?
Further, if these pages are now being used by others who wish to promote greater social issues in the WOL area, then I suggest other forums should be used to do so.

Binoculars...My Interest? Unfortunately, you're about to be disappointed in your quest for conspiratorial gratification... it's not as sinister as you or others would probably like to hear.

Think about this 'hypothetical' ... the matter continues to be aired - the community decides to vote with their feet and to boycott all business associated with WOL airport and there are many, including new entrants who now exist as a result of the upgrade works along with others external to the airport supporting the expansion.
If crikey.com has uptaken this issue, as one other has stated - fine. Please continue it there and remove it from the pages of PPRuNE, where it now appears to live more to provide entertainment value, judging by some of the comments, than to promote any satisfactory conclusion.

The continuation of this topic certainly isn't promoting the interests of all those connected with the airport or our industry in general.

In case it hasn't been noticed, this topic has diverted at times from the affairs of an average battler, to one which is driven by a well-organised and focussed group of people who have continued to place obstacles at the promotion of the upgraded airport's capabilities - the anti-noise lobby comes to mind.
It's an irony that PPRuNe may now be condoning this.

[PPRuNe Towers]

New server 7 weeks ago - well, a second one in fact. No 100 post limits unless we are very bored.

Regards
Rob

[THREEGREENS]

The Wollongong, Illawarra Regional Airport and now IRA2 threads are most definately about aviation. Not just the demise of one local operator due to an obvious vendetta and people interferring with the tendering processes, but about fair play, public rights, public safety et all! This is also about 1 or 2 council OFFICERS, not councillors (the elected reps of the community) who have taken it upon themselves to dictate to the community what will or will not happen. As to the anit noise lobby group contributing, I cannot see any clear indication where this has happened but if it has, then that too is about aviation is it not?
I will take you to task about one point specifically though.....about only one operator affected out of a whole heap...WRONG! There are 4 operators on this airport (there were 6 in recent times). This council, through their divide and conquer mentality, have set one against the other and have done so for years. Out of those operators left, council is only supportive of 1 whilst the others match witts with this mob on an almost daily basis. The two other operators who have left the area have done so because of the interferrence of council and have proof of that interferrence. The airport upgrade opposition was all about corruption and due process. Its about the proper use of community assets and community money. Its about jobs in aviation. It covers the whole gamit and quite frankly, what has happened down there is absolutely disgusting. With the problems in Bankstown (30 minutes away) you would expect a council who built 4 brand new hangars would fill them all in 10 minutes.......no! two will remain vacant because there were no takers and why, because people are reluctant to do business with this shaky mob.
On a lighter note....the Mayor of Shellharbour was on television last night complaining that over the weekend, someone had put a dead rat in his letter box! Now, even I think enough is enough!!!:( How dare anybody have the audacity to sully the image of such a fine animal by using it in such a manner! Perhaps we'll start a thread and call it THE RATS REVENGE!;) There'd certainly be no shortage of RATS out there who might like to contribute! (hehe)

[wishtobflying]

Just in case any of you missed it the first time around, here is an online petition you can put your name to and show your support:

http://www.ipetitions.com/campaigns/AEROWASP/

[Sunfish]

Ultra, with the greatest of respect, are you simply promoting apathy as a great aviation strategy?

Bullying seeems to be a frequent tactic in the aviation industry, and pilots are often the main victims.

It is therefore bizarre for a pilot to suggest that the bullying of an operator (by CASA, Council, or anyone else) should be tolerated for any reason whatsoever.

To put it another way, if you would like to see regional aviation die like GA, just keep putting up with the status quo.

To put it yet another way, exactly how many hundreds of people are going to have to die before the Government, regulators, industry and pilots realise that rules and regulations are there for a reason and must not be selectively enforced?

I will now go out on a very long limb and say that I wonder if Qantas is reviewing its decision to operate into WOL on the grounds of safety?

[Binoculars]

In light of Pprune Towers' post, can we have this thread merged with the original, please, Woomera?

[the end]

It does not matter who is right. The best option might be the press, it might be the politicians, it might be the courts, what we have to do is whatever we can to assist Aerowasp.

I suggest all of the above. If you have friends in the press contact them, if you have contacts with politicians contact them. Even some in the labor party will be concerned that this is going to blow up in their face. Tonight everybody should e-mail this and the last thread to anybody and everybody.

As to Qantas they should be concerned. The runway is poor, the security a joke. When you are secured behind the pool fence people are able to pass you things through the fence from the car park??:bored: If jeff is serious about Qantas security he should take a serious look at what is happening at AP.

I am personally very happy about the coming of Qantas, I do however feel they have been used by the council management as a justification for some of their back door deals.



Has the runway been upgraded to 20 tonnes yet?:8

[Aquaboy]

Consume the following and decide on how you would deal with these actions……
You are at work on a Sunday afternoon after a days flying, completing the paperwork. A council airport manager turns up at your door after an afternoon drinking at the airport restaurant, and in front of your staff starts abusing you and threatening you with withdrawal of your DA because he feels that you are in breech of it. THIS is what happened to the operator of Aerowasp some six years ago after he completed an Iskra check flight with another accredited pilot. In his inebriated state, the airport manager got very vocal with threats till he was ejected from the office. He then stood outside the premises making threats that the operator doesn’t know who he is dealing with and as long as his (the airport managers) a**e points to the ground there will be no renewal of the lease……… and the saga has been going on since then!
This council officer has been integral in trying to place his glowing red nose into everyone’s business on the airport, as he believes that all business decisions should go before him. This chap wouldn’t last five minutes in private enterprise!

Can anyone confirm the rumors that are doing the rounds, that the only person to be taken to task from the car and helicopter incident the other week is the car operator? Seems CASA is very interested in why a car was parked on an active taxiway, and why didn’t it move for an airborne aircraft.

[fullflaps]

Page 5...Illawarra Mercury of today!
Our bleeding heart Mayor and his trusty sidekick are again (still) bleating about how all the locals are complaining about their (lack of) administration. They are now off to see the Minister tomorrow to see if he can bring pressure to bear on the Director General (of Local Government) to see what they can do about all the accusations about the airport, aviation operators etc etc.
Fellas, how about do us all a favour? How about asking the Minister or the Director General to launch a Commission of Enquiry into all the complaints aired here and elsewhere and invite ALL the complainants along to state their case and let's help the GM clear his name!
I am willing to be $1 against $1,000 TO ANYONE that Larry, Curly and Moe won't have the guts to make that suggestion to Mr Kelly?

:ok:

[MR BATOR]

Mr Aquaboy,

Are you serious,Your telling us that some six years back,after Mr Aerowasp had a checkride in a jet, the airport manager come up to Mr Aerowasp in a drunken state after drinking at the airport restaurant and started to abuse him and his staff, for WHAT breaching his D.A (HOW?),
Obviously Aerowasp's staff are witnesses to this?
Then you say the airport manager after being evicted from Aerowasps office stood outside yelling you don't know who your dealing with and while his a##e points to the ground
he will never let Mr aerowasp renew his hanger lease again!

(CHARMING), Was this on the managers day off too?,using
his so called authority in a druken state!

If all of this is true people this is nothing more than a
PERSONAL VANDETTA!!

MR BATOR........

[Ultra]

Dear Mr PPruNe Towers,

So you're able to make a better-informed assessment of this topic's promotion within the pages of this forum and its continuation, please consider this...

Wollongong, until recently, was a small (almost community) airport which needed improvement work and serviced a fortunate group of people operating ultralight, light aircraft and more recently, the Historical Aircraft Restoration Society. Over the years, like many, the airport has also been encroached by residential development.

It would be fair to say that a good cross-section and all age groups within the aviation community are having their interests well-served by the airport's existence.
Unfortunately, it would also be obvious (to me at least) that this particular group of people would not be capable, on their own, to support and justify the continuation of this airport (purely at a business level) when the pressure on the administering authority to make greater financial gain by closing the airport in favour of urban re-development, would be significant.

I have no actual information to base this statement on, but it's fair speculation as the concept of airport closures in this environment is not new - within our same geographical area, this recently occurred at Swansea (with plenty of coverage in this forum) and pressure would exist on similar closures through population growth rates.

The single point giving me the greatest amount of difficulty about this topic, is that the airport's administering organisation has moved away from all recent trends and supported the continuation of the airport through capital investment and a significant upgrade in its efforts to sustain the airport's viability.

This topic, rather than providing any recognition of the positive aspects of this, has continually criticised the authority and the airport in, it would seem, the pursuit of a small group of people's interpretation of justice at any cost.

Should I be questioning the methods or mistakes of the authority? Do issues as significant as this one, ever exist in 'black and white' terms? I'd suggest it falls into that category and if some interpret this as apathy, I accept the criticism. I continue to add though, that beliefs in my apparent apathy might be more credible had I jumped in after 5 posts rather than 250. The affected people have received fair and resonable coverage of their case.

I've speculated that many of the contributors to this forum would exist within the group opposed to the airport's continuation and I maintain that belief on the basis of the contentious arguments put here about safety, security and inadequacy. To those contributors who are not opposed to the airport, but are endeavouring to bring about justice through this forum, you may achieve your result at the ultimate price of airport closure.

If the topic is to focus on the behaviour of the SCC, rather than the merits of the Illawarra Regional Airport, then please give it a new, more appropriate title.
If the new title would (accurately) decribe personal accounts of dealings with local government, why does it belong in a forum connected with aviation and the professional pilots supporting it?

Rob, please take the time to give this due consideration and make a qualified call on its merits. "Too bored" is an over-simplified view.

[Maverrick]

Hey Ultra,
Please don't waste our time and your negative mentallity here,
A person like you would do well at Shellharbour City Council, I hear their looking for a new mayor and general manager real SOON!!

Mav..........:E

[doesn't look good]

Ultra,
You really are starting to sound desperate. What is your problem? The exposure of the victimization of Aerowasp? I suspect 95% of the industry deplores what has is happening to Aerowasp, it could happen to anyone at AP. The accounts of the poor quality of the runway upgrade? Are these not true? The reporting of the breaches of air safety? The reporting of the poor state of security at the air field? Not true? This should be a major concern. The reporting of the serious incident on Sunday? Why are these not aviation matters. Why are all these subjects not worthy of discussion? Why do you think you have the right to call time?

If you don’t like it stop reading the thread. At worse there are 20 people in Shellharbour reading this outside the aviation industry. It appears the person who reads it most is the GM who keeps referring to it as a concerted internet attack. Pprune must have hit the big time up there compared with Google. Rob please put up your advertising rates.

You seem obsessed with closing this down mainly because of the Aerowasp complaint but I sense another reason. Pleases tell us why? Does the truth hurt that much? I have seen few posts stating that anything posted here is not mostly correct.

You now attempt the blackmail approach. If you keep complaining the airport might have to close. Sounds pretty desperate to me sounds like you might me Larry, Curly or Barney or at least a close associate. If you believe the people who are not behaving responsibly at the air field should be protected then I think most people in the industry would welcome your departure from it.

Finally another point that might upset you. The council has never got a proper approval to upgrade the runway. This seems to be the rat bags biggest objection. Instead of cheering a pro airport council everybody reading this should shudder. This means that at any time the rat bags (if they get the money) can appeal the upgrade to the courts and potentially get it deemed unlawful. What happens then to all the operators who move into the airport in good faith? They find they cannot run their business if they have aircraft over say 12 tonnes. This is a possible outcome and legal advice when i looked at getting a hanger there. Beware. And ultra please do not complain, the unsuspecting victims of the council deserve to know.

[asac]

The road rage incident is still not reported officially.

Any more details on the Catalina incident.

[Sunfish]

Ultra, I suggest that what you are saying has a certain surface of rationality, however there are deeper issues here.

No one is arguing against the idea of developing a sustainable airport at Illawarra, nor the idea of an aerospace cluster of businesses or whatever. These are noble objectives.

Now lets cut to reality.

Point one: There are plans to develop Archerfield, Moorabbin, Point Cook, Essendon, Bankstown, Illawarra, Jandakot and Parafield and any other signifigant airport.

These plans sit in the drawers of municiple authorities, property developers, State Governments and merchant banks. The persons concerned can tell you to the nearest thousand dollars what the land is worth in an undeveloped, semi developed and fully developed state.

They can also tell you what enabling legislation, regulation and zoning changes are required. Together with an outline project plan and timeline.

All of these plans, and there are multiple ones for each airport, are there on a "what if" basis against the day that the political climate would allow the closure of any of these airports.

All airport charges are related to the return on investment required to match the returns that would be generated by property development less a discount for community perceptions of the utility of the airport

No, I'm not joking and I'm not paranoid either. Its the job of property developers to do these plans so they are not caught flat footed.

Now if there is a major accident at any of these airports involving loss of life to people underneath the flightpath, then there is going to be an immediate push for any or all of these airports to be closed "as a danger to the community".

To put it another way mate, one more Partenavia through the fence at Essendon, a lighty crashing on a brand new house near Point Cook, let alone a Connie going through the fence at Illawarra and your airport will go.

Against this background, one has to expect that airports will be managed professionally else they will disappear.

It is alleged that the management of Illawarra airport is both unsafe and unprofessional. Examples include:

1) Alleged safety violations by HARS and a failure to meet its supposed community and financial projections.

2) Alleged promotion of fast jet thrill rides that may be not be legally possible from this airport.

3) An alleged vendetta against an apparently profitable and sustainable operator.

4) An alleged botched runway upgrade, and understrength pavement for the aircraft using it that is regularly damaged by operations. (One wonders, if it really has not been approved whethe Qantas can legally fly to it?0

5) Alleged safety violations involving a car and a helicopter.

6) Apparent replacement of viable operators with non viable or trivial operators.

Given these matters, one has to wonder if Illawarra regional airport is actually being set up to fail financially so that there is community support for its closure and conversion to more "profitable" uses.

So yes, Ultra, we are concerend because the alleged activities (or lack of them) threatens the viability of the airport itself. Sitting around watching the slow motion train wreck is one option, but it is not the best one from an aviators point of view.

On a final note, I will bet $5 to the charity of your choice that the desired outcome of the mayor's visit to Sydney is an inquiry into the airport. The purpose of the inquiry of course is to blunt and suppress criticism. The terms will be narrow, it will be conducted by a Labor "Mate" in private with no public scrutiny or participation possible and the outcome will be a predetermined whitewash. The results will be announced on a "suitable" day - (good friday, boxing day, Anzac day, Christmas, any time when the public is not looking) and the culprits will be long gone by then anyway.

I suspect Mr. Aerowasp's only hope is a very quick injunction to prevent his eviction.

[Pitch and Break]

Ultra,

Just a couple of points you might like to consider before employing your scare tactics to have this thread shut down:
Airport Closure
Shellharbour City Circus ARE NOT the owners of the airport - they are meerly the custodians. Under the provisions where these airports were handed to local governments for administration, sale of the airports CANNOT be affected without permission from the Minister. As with the case of Goulburn, this is not that easy to achieve and any sale MUST be proved to benefit the community.
Airport Income
Might come as a surprise, but council has just ditched THE ONLY COMMERCIAL OPERATOR on the airport paying full commercial rates! HARS is fully discounted with cheap rent and even cheaper landing fees. The AAP receives their rent back annually as a grant from council. The truth is the airport has been a charity basket case for years and through mismanagement and maladministration, has been a huge impass on the community for years.
Airport Upgrade
The community has been questioning the council for ages about how the upgrade was done in the manner it was - that's all. In this community, not unlike heaps of others in this state, that are so over-regulated by local councils, that you can't f**t without undertaking an EIS first, the upgrade seemed to circumvent all the normal processes applied by council. No tender, no EIS, very limited consultation etc etc etc. People want answers why this was allowed to happen and that's all. Anyone who questions the requirement for an EIS needs to understand that the upgrade has significantly changed (potentially) the fundamental role of the airport. The upgrade, had it been properly done, would have allowed significantly larger aircraft to operate from the airport thereby changing significantly the use and role of the airport without community consultation or consideration.
Council Administration
SCC is run like a mini empire with the King and Queen sitting at the head dictating to their subjects........and quite frankly, the community (including the aviation community) have had a gutfull! We have a GM and Mayor continually on the television, radio and in the papers whinging about all the bullies picking on them.......and seem totally oblivious to the bullying tactics employed by them for the past 10 years! They will employ any tactic to return to the slippery tactics of the past....including putting dead rats in their own letter boxes! As with Miss Corby, the evidence conveniently disappeared without finger printing, DNA testing or video evidence!!!
Please stop trying to scare the community with your absurd claims!

[jokova]

Applause for 'Pitch and Break'. . . . there speaks a voice of reason and moderation . . . .

. . . . . . but for all that and all that, where will reform come from ? Who can suggest a course that will lead to the investigation and overturning of deeply entrenched favour and privilege?

For without that, this thread may as well be themed with Bob Dylan -

****ing in the wind.

[doesn't look good]

One subject that I did not mention in my last post that I think is worthy of mention as Sunfish brought it up is Top Gun. How dumb are the management at the Circus. If there is one thing that is going to get the community screaming it is noise.

Now this is dumb enough but to do this and spend $30,000 of public money defending the decision at court whilst being full aware that there was a pending AAT decision that would effectively shut them down at Bankstown and AP must be an act of complete incompetence. I wonder if Barney told the Mayor about this before the mayor spent the money.

Noise levels recorded at the nearest homes were over 90 decibels. Ultra this is an example of the management incompetence actually bring the airfield into focus for all the wrong reasons and hastening its demise.

As for the encroachment of houses around the airfield who has been responsible for most of this encroachment in the past decade. Answer Larry, Curly and Barney at the circus. Are these people really our saviors or are they trying to close the place down. They spent the minimum possible on the upgrade. They have brought the place into disrepute. They will be the cause of an Inquiry that will expose the big problems. Do you think the Catalina on the weekend helped us? 200 feet over peoples house with an engine failing. The airfield probably was 200 feet from closure.

[Aquaboy]

Why would the airport manager that I mentioned in an earlier post threaten to evict a “recreational jet pilot” and commercial operator over jet noise, and around three years later welcome a commercial jet operator onto the airport with open arms??? Both jets have AROUND the same DB with the earlier marginally louder, but the effects upon the community is the same?
Maybe, just maybe the present operator should have donated some green to the cause and this would have curbed his political problems!

:E :E

[COLLIE]

A friend mentioned this site to me last night suggesting i should have a read; and I must say I am shocked! A few years back, I learned to fly with the guys at Wollongong and I have got to say, I find everything written here to be not possible. I have now worked with 4 operators and have never seen a more stringent application of the rules and concern for safety than when I was learning with the guys at Wollongong. I know the CFI takes great pride in their flawless safety record and have watched as he has torn strips off others for doing something stupid or dangerous, and not just people from his own organisation either!
I cannot believe that he has done the thing with the car and doubt very much that the story has any thruth to it at all. On the other side of the coin, if it had been me, I would have landed, shutdown and reefed the fool out of the car by the shirt collar and busted his snout!:E

[Darth Vadar]

Collie,

I too learned at Wollongong with Aerowasp and agree with you entirely. Peter and Gavin run one of the most professional training organisations at least on a par with the best in the country. I remember Peter firing an instructor on the spot when he decided to take a few libertys with the training syllabus that he considered unsafe. At the time, I thought he was a bit harsh with the guy but with hindsight and a few years flying under my belt, I now consider his actions were very justified on this occasion and an indication that he would not accept anything short of professionalism from anyone associated with his school, and that includes students as well. Can you recall how often he mentioned the "A" word during your training?

Does this really sound like the type of person who would chase the airport manager with a helicopter? I doubt it very much (and I agree with you; I would have decked the clot!):ok:

[doesn't look good]

Everybody seems to agree about who was at fault with the car incident. Why did the Connie pilot give the version he did and why did he report it to the GM not CASA?

The Iskra incident is interesting. Since the Comming of Top Gun the council has been denying there ever was an incident. I wonder why. The files have gone. Is this part of the document shredding Cardia spoke about.



:O :O :yuk:

[the end]

Is it really suggested here that about three years ago the Airport Manager threw a military jet fighter off the airport because it was too loud and disturbed his dinner and three years later he puts his support behind another military jet fighter coming to the airport and says there is no noise problem? Is this for real. I hope the DLG and ICAC are monitoring this because this is contrary to what everybody has been told.

:rolleyes:

[Malfunction Junction]

A few years back, the owner of Aerowasp did an Iskara endorsement from the Illawarra Regional Airport. The airport manager turned up at his business drunk claiming that the pilot was in breach of his DA for flying the aircraft. It was pointed out the absurdity of the claims and the guy was ejected from the premises amoung threats of closure and physical threats as well. (The entire episode is well documented and was the initial catalyst for the break down of relations between these two people). The airport manager later claimed that he had received some noise complaints and that he had a responsibility to investigate such complaints and had decided that the interests of the public were to be vigorously defended. Funny how all of a sudden, the interests of the public don't appear to be a consideration any longer?
On a similar vane, appears the council is about to be taken to task about just this issue. Another operator using aircraft with a similar or better sound signature than the L39 (and same Permit Index) is about to submit a DA for operations from the airport as well. It will indeed be interesting to see how council handles this issue as to allow it would almost be suicidal (for council) yet to not-approve the proposal could end up in an expensive and long court battle over what could be seen as discrimination or protective trade practices. Interesting times ahead I think!:ok:

[Pitch and Break]

Doesn't Look Good There is a very good reason why the connie pilot supported council on the car/helicopter incident and why he now looks like a goose! HARS is dependent on the support of the airport manager for their very existence on the airport. It is only a matter of time before people start to question what happened to all the broken promises from HARS (these promises formed the very basis of HARS proposal to relocate to the airport over 3 years ago):
$21M museum/hangar/maintenance complex,
$15M per annum in generated income/turnover;
15 employees.
Reality:
$1M shed
2.5 acres of all-but free land presently used as a scrap yard
$450 landing fees per annum for all their aircraft (whilst the other operators pay $1650 p/a for each single and $3300 for a twin!)
A dsigraceful collection of demountables positioned hotpotch all over the outside of the airport.
Nil generated income/turnover
Nil employees.

The recent proponents for hangars on the airport had to prove their capability to meet their commitments/promises so what happened to HARS?
Anyone would have to question why the incident with the car drew a response from the connie pilot to council and not to the ATSB or CASA? I suggest that he was invited to respond to council in an attempt to shore up a case against the helo operator. Unfortunately, I think the whole episode might just blow up in their collective faces!

[AVateher]

COLLIE & Darth Vadar,

The emotional response you have suggested is exactly the reaction the Airport Manager was trying to provoke with his deliberate, unsafe and irresponsible actions, and which would have given him the ammunition he was after to close the business

Fortunately the Helo Operator used the self restraint he is noted for and acted in the professional manner you refer to and did not snot the SOAB

[doesn't look good]

I have received several PMs from people about the status of the runway and the advice I received. My advice to all those considering moving to AP is ask to see the approval for the upgrade. There isn’t one. You will be told it was not needed. Then decide if you believe it or get your own advice.

Pitch and brake.
You forgot to mention the $50 - $100k of rate payers money that was spent on repairing the runway after the Connie repeatedly crashed through it (free concessions). You forgot to mention that instead of HARS creating jobs the circus is actually creating them for HARS. You also forgot to mention that the upgrade was not supposed to cost the public 1cent. Sponsors were going to pay for it. Thus far $1,275,000 of expenditure has been admitted to. You may have noticed in the papers this week that there is more to be spent again. If you count the missed investment, the lack of job creation, the council investment and the lost revenues from the land, the projections of benefit from this project to the council and the area are about $10 million plus out at this point. Who at council has been held responsible? Just put the rates up.

Whilst I keep saying, and I mean it, that I support the upgrade I absolutely detest the lies and deceit, the threats and blackmail, the victimization and bullying that are surrounding this.

The Connie pilots untrue report to the GM about Aerowasp to assist eviction is probably the most white feather deed i have seen in my 35 years associated with this industry.


Cardia. They have worked out who you are. Or at least they think they have. If you think they will forgive and forget dont fool yourself. It took 5 years to get Aerowasp and the pursuit was relentless. Once this is over watch out.



:{ :{ :yuk:

[YIPYIO]

QantasLink on television last night - commence operations Monday and that IS a great thing for the community (about the only positive step out of this whole debarcle). BUT the boss did indicate that at present they were projecting about 50% capacity for the runs on all indicators and that is with a flurry of excitement for the newbee! Towards the end of Impulses excursion into the Illawarra, the numbers dropped off considerably to about 1 out of three flights empty.....how long does anyone expect that QantasLink will run empty machines around without revenue? Historically, I think the omens are not good!
Onto the three vacant hangars at the airport (brand new, one to be completed later). Appears council has been VERY selective in their venture with the hangars. The trike chap applied for a hangar proposing very similar money etc as everyone else and he did not even get a reply or response.....he has quite a big operation and has been in business on the airport for 8 years! You have to ask yourself WHY? Basically, if the hangars remain vacant without patronage, council will give one to HARS and one to TOPGUN.......will con the public into thinking they are doing the right thing by utilising the hangars and earning revenue as planned........but really its all smoke and mirrors!
The community should be calling for an immediate Commission of Enquiry into this scandalous council and demand the sacking of senior management and the Mayor.....nothing less is acceptable!
One final issue that seems to have slid past without comment...can anybody explain what gives with the CB hangar and facilities? How come one operator on the field was allowed to install his own personal fuel bowser thereby circumventing the need to purchase fuel commercially like everyone else...what does he pay to council and as his hangar has been there for over 20 years, did that revert to council ownership like the others?
:\ And isn't the owner the very same person responsible for the shoddy upgrade that he just got a cool $M for?

[asac]

Yipyio,
Let me assure you it is the same treatment for all. Council has told the DLG and ICAC that it is policy to put these types of council properties out to tender when the lease expires to ensure they maximize the returns for their ratepayers. I am sure you will find that this lease has also been put out to tender on several occasions as per the council procedures.
You certainly will not find that Aerowasp was the first and only company that this policy applied to. The fact that a council officer has used aircraft from this facility will also have no bearing on the treatment of the hanger.

[YIPYIO]

ASAC, let me assure you that you are wrong on this account. The hangar mentioned above HAS NEVER been out to tender nor have any otrher hangar on the airfield unless there were changes in the occupation. 3 of the existing hangars HAVE NOT been out to tender for over 25 years despite the occupants only having 5 year leases! I can assure you you are wrong!!!

Recently it was reported here that the labour councillors had been instructed to do whatever was necessary to get rid of the troublesome independents from council. Guess what? The deputy mayor (labour) has sworn out an AVO against one of the independents.....the chamber magistrate reckons the issue was so trivial that he refused to allow the criminal act to be used in such a manner and has refused the application. LET THE GAMES BEGIN!:mad:
For those interested, the Senior Labour Councillor who is himself subject to AVO action from a subject, will have the matter heard at Albion Park Local Court on the 8th June at 1000. Think the court might be packed so get a seat early!!!!:ok:

[Sqwark Standby]

ASAC,

Just confirmation. A report on the incident with the car on the taxiway was submitted to the ATSB and has been received by them. It is presently being processed FNA.

[the end]

The Labor councilors do not like G; too honest. The GM hates him. Pretty stupid of M though. You heard it here a few weeks ago the Labor councilors were out to get the independents. This pathetic attempt was probably something dreamt up by Larry, Curly and Moe. I thought M would have had more sense. Loyalty to the extreme. No rat for M?!!

How did this get out M? Who dobbed? Somebody deserves a rat. Insubordination in the ranks and the factions are off. I know who wants to be the next mayor.


:sad:

[Sunfish]

My guess is that this airport is being set up to fail commercially. If Qantaslink start - and then pull out later, whats the betting the Council will go cap in hand to the Minister and get it closed?

Filling the airport with trivial or discount operators would be a good tactic because then the Council can minimise the impact of closure.

For this conspiracy theory to have legs, one would have to look at who has been forced out and the financial viability of their replacements.

Can anyone comment?

[LewC]

Has anyone visited the wollongongairport.com webpage and taken advantage of the Feedback/Discussion Forum facility?



Link disabled by Woomera.

You of course can go there it's a simple cut and paste with the three w's but it may not be wise to do so direct from here.

[dijical]

There's a new website "WollongongAirport.com" dedicated to Illawarra Regional Airport so come take a look:

Link disabled by Woomera.

You of course can go there it's a simple cut and past but it may not be wise to do so direct from here

[PROPSWINGA]

Don't waste your time visiting the link above. It is a site set up by **** which is both self-serving and intended to only foster one opinion (and that is theirs). Earlier today someone posted the link to here on the forums page and within the hour, it had misteriously disappeared!:mad:

[dijical]

Hmmmmm.... the WollongongAirport.com website is mine... what makes you think i'm ****?

The site's done purely as a personal project. Until i came across this forum today, i wasn't even aware of this "controversy"!


Link disabled by Woomera.

You of course can go there it's a simple cut and past but it may not be wise to do so direct from here

[Sunfish]

(Woomera you might want to edit this post to a simple statement that a whois search and clicking on a few links shows, as a matter of public record, that the woolongong airport website owner has links to the Historic Aircraft Restoration Society. And that anything posted to that website can be tracked back to its poster)


WATCH IT! The wollongong airport website tracks your URL and time and datestamps who is looking at it. Click on the tiny box at the bottom and get taken to "extremetracking.com" to view the statistics for the site.

The gentleman who built the site has only just registered at pprune. A simple "whois" query indicates that a company by the name of Mercinvest is the owner of the domain name. Mercinvest's excellent website lists it's portfolio and community activities, one of which is : The Historical Aircraft Restoration Society. The contact is (do your own 'whois search!)

Anything you post on that discussion forum can be tracked back to you over time by a process of elimination.

Please understand that anything one posts to such a forum can eventually be correctly attributed to the poster.

With the greatest respect, methinks it might be wise for the more vocal of you to politely decline the invitation to post on that forum.


A simple whois query shows:

Registrant:
MercInvest
PO Box XXXX
Royal Exchange, NSW 1225
AU

Domain name: WOLLONGONGAIRPORT.COM

Administrative Contact:
xxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxx
PO Box XXXXX
Royal Exchange, NSW 1225
AU
+xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Technical Contact:
LLC, Fluid Hosting xxxxxxxxxxxx
PO BOX 453
Storrs, CT 06268-0453
US
+1.8606566191 Fax: +1.8606566192


example data from extreme tracking:

Last 20 Visitors Unique Visitors
03 Jun, Fri, 21:53:33 CPE-138-217-6-119.vic.bigpond.net.au MSIE 6 Windows XP
03 Jun, Fri, 21:56:59 222.68.70.78 MSIE 6 Windows XP
03 Jun, Fri, 21:57:07 c211-30-107-117.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au MSIE 6 Windows XP
03 Jun, Fri, 22:12:33 d220-236-132-90.dsl.nsw.optusnet.com.au MSIE 6 Windows 98
03 Jun, Fri, 22:27:26 dialup-117.110.220.203.acc02-mark-wlg.comindico.com.au MSIE 6 Windows 2000
03 Jun, Fri, 22:34:52 CPE-144-132-115-124.vic.bigpond.net.au MSIE 6 Windows XP
03 Jun, Fri, 22:42:30 CPE-203-51-9-238.nsw.bigpond.net.au Netscape 7 Windows 2000
03 Jun, Fri, 23:12:41 c211-30-128-209.blktn1.nsw.optusnet.com.au Firefox 1.x Windows XP
03 Jun, Fri, 23:27:07 host81-138-235-185.in-addr.btopenworld.com MSIE 6 Windows XP
03 Jun, Fri, 23:27:39 syd-pow-pr1.tpgi.com.au Firefox 1.x Windows XP
03 Jun, Fri, 23:28:10 cache-ntc-ab10.proxy.aol.com MSIE 6 Windows 98
03 Jun, Fri, 23:28:21 c220-237-150-138.brodm1.vic.optusnet.com.au MSIE 6 Windows XP

[Sunfish]

I would like to respectfully inform fellow PPruners that, as a matter of public record, the website mentioned above is owned by a company that lists one of its community activities as The Historic Aircraft Restoration Company. A simple whois search and clicking on a few links demonstrates the truth of this.

I therefore suggest that you be very polite on that very nice website's discussion forums, particularly about HARS, because its traffic is tracked by the that wonderful company extremetracking.com.

[YIPYIO]

The site is a trap designed to collect information about posters. They will not retain a link to Pprune.org and it is a collection point for ISP's and other information. Be very wary.:E
Nice try Brian!

[jokova]

sunfish: Hold out your hand for camel stamp - ace sleuthing.

dijical: Pull the other one, if you expect anyone to swallow your

utter tripe, that you've only this week learnt of the existence

of PPRuNe's forum so close to your clandestine interests,

[dijical]

Wow. I've set up a website about Wollongong Airport as a bit of a personal project and I've stepped into the middle of some kind of conspiracy theory to rival the assassination of John F Kennedy. :ooh: Which is rather more exciting than I anticipated when i set up the site. :\

For the record, I have no direct involvement with the airport in any way. I am a member of HARS, but only to the extent of signing an application form and posting it off. I've never been to a meeting or had any further involvement. I merely (innocently) considered it a method of supporting one of the developments at the airport.

So I have no vested interest or agenda.

I would really appreciate someone explaining to me what all this drama is about. The first time I heard anything about it was when i discovered this forum yesterday.

I innocently assumed that people basing new activities, building facilities etc was a good thing. What am i missing?

Thanks.

[Ultralights]

I innocently assumed that people basing new activities, building facilities etc was a good thing. What am i missing?

Take half an hour of your time, and read all the posts related to Illawarra airport! quite disturbing really!

[YIPYIO]

Dijical,
Please explain just one thing? When someone posted on your forum a link to this thread at Pprune, why did you remove the post. The way I read it, there was nothing in the post to your forum that was malicious or scandalous, just instructions to this website, so why was it removed? If you are genuine, and I very much doubt it, then reinstall the link on your own forum!:mad: And just as an aside, why would you want to make a website about the airport when EVERY operator on the field has their own website anyhow, all refering to this airport! Forgive me, but I smell one B I G rat......maybe one that has done the rounds of the local mail boxes even?:uhoh:

[dijical]

Hi yipyio

the only post to the WollongongAirport.com forum referring to this forum was this:

network54.com/Forum/message?forumid=232073&messageid=1117782000

Cut and paste and add the 3 W's - do not click and link from PPRuNe. Woomera

I have not deleted any posts; in fact i added to the posting above a follow-up with the link constructed properly so you can click through.

Why did i create the website? Well, every operator might have their own site, but mostly they're not much good, and they're very narrowly focussed. i wanted something independent and broadly focussed. If someone wants to send me an article, comment, photos, whatever, I'm keen to publish. I'm interested basically in the same way as everyone else here. The only difference is that i've got off my backside and forked out $30 for a web domain and tried to create something useful.

If anyone figures they can do better, then go for it! :ok:

[doesn't look good]

Looks like larry, curly and barney are getting desperate. They have got the keystone cops to track us down. You would have thought they would have had enough to do with the AVO and aborted AVO, the rate rise etc.:mad:

No surprise where they turn to for help hopeless antiquated rusty scrap. Perhaps somebody would like to speculate on why a certain party took out a long term lease on a terminal building when they were building their own facility. Then as luck has it suddenly it becomes a wounderful slice of good fortune as a RPT service starts up and guess what H### baggage handling service is born :uhoh: Maybe H### security and H### customer service. Nothing given to the community as promised now milking us. Don't up the ante you cannot afford to.

Do you think somebody got some inside running :sad:

I would ask the GM to demand a full investigation into all the allegation surrounding SC Circus. The purpose of which would be to expose the people who continual start these terrible rumours. But as i have said before this is only a rumour network.

What is it about smoke and fire:suspect: :suspect: :ouch:

[Woomera]

I think this topic has had a fair run and i'ts time for whoever to take whatever action they feel is necessary and get on with their lives.

We would be happy to revisit the subject when there is something new to report on the subject.