Flying Pay

[mattdog]

I know several people have posted threads concerning flying pay but I don't think people realise just how many this might effect.

NCA who were commissioned in Branch and have had their NCA time served taken into account for progression up the Officers Pay Scales may be in for a shock.

I have recently been approached by PSF looking to reclaim £53k in "over issue". £20k was attributed to the above, whilst the other £33k was when I transferred to Pilot.

The RAF dropped me down to the lower rate of flying pay straight away, without warning, and I'll stay there until the case is resolved.

Is there anyone else in a similar situation or has taken the matter further, ie redress, Gilbert Blades or MPs?

[BootFlap]

Bl**by 'ell mattdog!

That is some over-issue. I have heard something before about the fact that you can not 'reasonably' be expected to pay that sort of amount back. I also assume you were not aware of the fact that you were being overpaid. It sounds like this needs a letter to AMP! Good luck mate.

Bootflap

[SidHolding]

If you look in the AP3392 under flying pay, it clearly states that:

b. NCA Commissioned as Pilot or WSO

(1). With effect from 1 Apr 03, NCA who began IOT on or before 31 Mar 03, will continue to receive their NCA rate of FP during IOT. On commissioning and during Pilot or WSO training, they will continue to receive their NCA rate of FP until such time as they have completed a 72 week QP, or are suspended from such training. They will then transfer to the Initial Rate of FP for officers and will remain at this rate for 4 years. However, time spent in receipt of NCA rates of FP is to be counted towards progression up the officer rates of FP.

(2). With effect from 1 Apr 03, NCA who begin IOT on or after 1 Apr 03 will continue to receive their NCA rate of FP during IOT. On commissioning and during Pilot or WSO training, they will continue to receive their NCA rate of FP until such time as they successfully complete Operational Conversion Unit (OCU) training or are suspended from training. Following successful completion of OCU training, they will transfer to the Initial Rate of FP for officers and will remain at this rate for 4 years. Time spent in receipt of NCA rates of FP is not counted towards progression up the officer rate of FP.

c. NCA Commissioned in the Same Aircrew Category.

(1). With effect from 1 Apr 03, NCA who began IOT on or before 31 Mar 03 will continue to receive their NCA rate of FP until the date of their commissioning, if commissioned in the same aircrew category. On appointment to commission, they will transfer from NCA rates of FP to equivalent commissioned rates of FP. NCA in receipt of the Initial Rate of NCA FP on commissioning will transfer to the Initial Rate of FP for officers and NCA in receipt of the Middle Rate of NCA FP will transfer to the Middle Rate of FP for officers. Time spent in receipt of NCA rates of FP is to be counted towards progression up the officer rates of FP.

(2). With effect from 1 Apr 03, NCA who began IOT on or after 1 Apr 03 will continue to receive their NCA rate of FP until the date of their commissioning, if commissioned in the same aircrew category. On appointment to commission, they will transfer from NCA rates of FP to the equivalent commissioned rates of FP. NCA in receipt of the Initial Rate of NCA FP on commissioning will transfer to the Initial Rate of FP for officers and NCA in receipt of the Middle Rate of NCA FP will transfer to the Middle Rate of FP of FP for officers. Following transfer to the officer rates of FP, they will remain at either the Initial or Middle Rate, as appropriate, for 4 years. Time spent in receipt of NCA rates of FP is not counted towards progression up the officers rates of FP.

[vecvechookattack]

How on earth did you manage to get Over paid to the tune of £53k without noticing something was wrong????

[LPD]

mattdog, check your PMs

[mattdog]

Thanks for the replies, AP3392 is how I'm trying to fight it at the moment but I have to try and get hold of the versions that were extant at that time ie 1997 and 2000. The version qouted there was written 2003 unfortunately otherwise it would be clear cut.

I didn't notice the supposed over issue because it was a common sense pay increase, I'd done 8 years as NCA therefore went on to the middle rate of Officers flying pay, they think I should have started again. And the same when I transferred to pilot 3 years later.

Haven't heard of PMs before??

[LPD]

mattdog,

I have sent you a private massage with some information.

[Dave Allen]

Matt,
hit the user cp icon at the top of the page to check for personal messages.....:ok: (I sound like an expert but only found it the other day which is why I haven't replied to JP and the like)! I would question them dipping your flying pay at the mo by the way; 'specially if you've got a mortgage riding on the strength of it. See ya soon buddy, and I'm sure things will come good.

Laters
Dave

[Bigtop]

Mattdog,

I'm sure under FOI that the back copies will be available.
If you have snags PM me as some of the RN guys had snags with changes to flying pay during training back in the early 90's and they won with the threat of court action.

Basically there is a law (its old but a good un) that states if you were genuinely paid , ie you didn't have any concerns that you were being overpaid because you believed you were entitled to it and then spent the money in good faith - tough MOD, their checks and balances should be more robust and the responsibility lies with the administrator!

Additionally thay are not entitled to 'dock' the money from your pay until a case has been proven against you or you agree for it to happen.

Good luck - take 'em down with you!

[Max Contingency]

Mattdog
I was commissioned as a pilot in 1990 after having served 6 years as NCA. My flying pay was kept at the NCA rate until I was re-winged as a pilot when it then went onto the officers' rate with the NCA time fully credited. My oppo who was commissioned in branch had his flying pay put onto the officers' rate on the day he was commisioned, again with full credit for his NCA time. I know of many others who were paid in the same way.
One anomaly of this system was that if I had been chopped as a pilot I would have had an instant increase in flying pay as I would have become commissioned in my old branch!!!

[mattdog]

Cheers Dave, unfortunately they've taken me good stlye on QR8 which states that whilst a dispute over flying pay is reconciled they can pretty much do what they want...... I can see lawyers getting involved though as I wasn't given any warning of the approaching poverty!

Max, sounds like you're fairly similar in the route you took. I'd keep a low profile if I was you or the Stazi Adminers might hunt you down, I'll keep posting updates.

[FL575]

I was overpaid flying pay by about £600, and I assumed I would have to pay it back. However, someone in SHQ new of a 'letter' in which the RAF legal people said that in any court case the RAF would lose, and that the matter would be quietly 'dropped'

[mattdog]

FL575

Thanks for that, I've taken legal advice and they say pretty much the same thing, the biggest fight will be trying to get put back on to the level of flying pay I was on before this all happened!

[Max Contingency]

Thanks Mattdog

I will be keeping my head down on this one and would appreciate knowing what your final outcome is.

How you asked your P staffs just how many people they think that this might apply to across the RAF? I think it will probably run into the hundreds.

The other thing that you may have on your side is that this will also apply to quite a few senior officers (who were commissioned from NCA). Including a couple of Wg Cdr's presently serving at PMA and at least one Gp Capt.

I am also fairly sure that the flying pay we received on commissioning WAS correct in accordance with the AP on issue at the time.

[mattdog]

Max

Dont blame you there at all, watch this space for updates.

I'm sure as well about the flying pay at the time and the current 3392 confirms that as well, I can't see the new version being LESS restrictive.

Apparantly the investigation is looking at about 150 people with a ruling coming out next week.

[Filthy]

MD,

The issue effects around 170 people in the entire RAF around a dozen are at the secret RAF Base near Swindon. The DLS and PMA staffs are reviewing every persons record who may be involved and as you say are to issue individuals with "letters" by the end of next week.

I believe this entire problem has been highlighted to the PMA by a problem at ISK. They will not issue the letters until they have resolved the problem at ISK. It is my understanding that this problem was highlighted in the PMA some years ago and it was ruled on then. A change of post holder and the policy gets reviewed as it is costimg money. Another REMF gets promoted after F****ing some Aircrew.

I am aslo involved in this debarkle awaiting my "bill" next week. Please spread the word as ALL NCA who commissioned into aircrew branches will be effected. This uproar that this may cause may make it go away.

Matt as you changed branch whilst commissioned does this also apply to Navs who become Pilots, if not then you have a good case based on parity of treatment.

MAX, methinks in this case think trying to keep low is not an option.

Bring it on!

[uncle peter]

mattdog cx pm's

[Sandy Parts]

For those of us ex-NCA not currently at home to receive this 'letter', any detail on what exactly PMA's problem is? Is it that no NCA flying time should ever have counted towards O's flying pay, or that it doesn't count if you went Pilot or Nav instead of AEO/Eng Ldr/Loadie Ldr ? As Mattdog says, an old copy of the AP3392 in force at the time would surely back us up - anyone got a copy??

[FJJP]

Might be worth a visit to pubs and forms store [or whatever it is called these days]. You may find old copies of the AP gathering dust in a box in the corner [did that myself a few years ago]...

[mattdog]

As far as I'm aware, this is going to affect ALL NCA who were commissioned into any flying branch where their time served recieving NCA flying pay counted towards any increments in their officer flying pay scale, no matter the branch!

As far as back copies, all stores were told to return or destroy old pubs but I'm sure I'm going to be able to get hold of one, they must be basing their argument on a copy otherwise the case wouldn't stand.

[ProfessionalStudent]

MattDog

I commissioned as a nav in 2000 and went through the same thing as you seem to be going through. I wasn't sure about the Officers' rates they were paying me and questioned the P staff and Innsworth. They confirmed I should go on to the O's rates and have my NCA time taken into account. I then got a bill for £8K around 12 months later. When I went back to stamp my feet, they effectively said "tough", cough up sunshine.

I pleaded I had spent all of the money and had received it in "good faith". However, it would seem "good faith" has no legal grounding... The Chief Clerk sent me a bunch of paperwork laying down the ground rules for a fight that they would work under. Effectively I had to show all of my income and out-goings and prove that any reduction in pay either through the cut in my flying pay or pay-back of said monies would cripple me financially. I did and I won... There is hope out there. Good info from the Chief Clerk. Try yours and he might help.

Isn't it funny (peculiar that is...) that even though the AP states that NCA time will count towards O's time, this document is wrong....? This is the only doc we have at our disposal. I'm sure any lawyer worth their salt in the contract law/HR side of things would take them to the cleaners. Not a comfortable route to take though.

Good luck me old cock-a-leekie. PM me if you can't get the regs from your chief clerk and I'll see if I 've still got the paperwork around....:ok:

[mattdog]

PS

Sounds the same doesn't it?

There is a definite legal grounding about paid monies and estoppels which is the route you went down. You do have to prove that you've spent the money and would be financially disadvantaged if you had to pay it back, or if it's outside of 6 years then you don't have to pay it back.

The PSF guys have been spot on where I am and have backed me up with letters up the chain, just waiting for a reply.

[Drygeezer]

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA, This makes me soooooooooo happy, I am so sorry but I may need to get another set of blues free, as the purple piss has stained them sooooooooo badly!!!!!!!!!!!!
Does anybody remember the betts report, they have finally applying his advice and are bringing you btards down to our level, what does it feel like to be acknowledged for what you do!

You aint seen me right:D

[bighead]

Well then drygeezer, the reason we get more flying pay than you is because we are educated to a much higher level and have a great deal more responsibility than you knockers. For example, when could you ever have the responsibility of aircraft captain, you rarely have to think beyond the galley.


YOU OIK, should have tried harder at school.

:E

[ProfessionalStudent]

Drygeezer

If you're after a bite, then switch to receive...

You bitter and twisted little runt. Left school wanting to be an AEOp did we? I didn't think so. If can't keep your petty thoughts on this subject to yourself then kindly refrain from posting on this topic.

The people who this affects are all hard-working self-improvers (of course you wouldn't see being ac captain as a step up but work with me here). This isn't about disparity in Officer and NCA flying pay (let's not go there). I'm sure if you were an AEO, you wouldn't be handing back the additional pay... I've been aircrew for 13 years and was NCA for 8 years. I feel you do your NCA brethren a great deal of injustice posting immature comments such as yours. Comments like that can only help to widen the (ill-?)perceived gulf between commissioned and non-commissioned aircrew

This affects people on a very serious level in terms of being able to afford mortgages (or pay for our third sports car as you probably think). Being handed a bill for several thousand quid is enough to keep people awake at night and perhaps even affect them in the air. Dont' suppose you thought it affected you, did you? Based on your last post, I wouldn't expect you to be so intelligent or broad minded.

If I am guilty of the crime of descending this topic into a back-biting contest (as is the sad case of so many other topics) then I'm truly sorry to everyone. I just felt very strongly that this isn't a case of Os vs ORs, but an "Us" vs "Them"(ie the MoD).

Rant complete. Don't let me get dragged into any further comment.

[BEagle]

Drygeezer, your clearly evident schadenfreude is thoroughly reprehensible. Your colleagues face very worrying financial uncertainty and to learn that others in their 'team', such as you, take malicious enjoyment from their misfortune is quite unacceptable.

If I were you I would either withdraw your post and apologise -or watch your back for the forseeable....

[Filthy]

I believe that the admin staff at ISK have the definative in whats occurring. When the rest of us will find out is a variable feast.

Should this come to pass then I will go from Enhanced (Pilot) rate to Initial rate. This will put me in serious financial difficulty whilst I fight my corner. The comments of DryGeezer are wholly innappropriate.

To say this doesn't effect NCA is untrue, PMA are also reviewing any NCA who have had previous service (non-aircrew) taken into account against the NCA flying pay scales, as these are now based on years served not years as NCA. This also is apparently an error that has gone unnoticed like the one highlighted in this thread. So not only ex-NCA are going to get shafted it looks like this is only the thin end of the wedge.

ALL NCA and ex-NCA whom have received "credits" towards any type of Flying Pay are in the firing line on this one. Beware of comments, like the ones from Drygeezer, that may come and bite you on the arse when you are looking for support from the very people you have just ridiculed.


It may be Filthy but it's not Fun............


BEagle - Here here!

[engineer(retard)]

I've never recieved flying pay and do not have an issue with those that do. Personally, I think drygeezer needs to get his bumps read as he does not appear to be playing with a full deck. Incontinence is probably a medical downgrading in any trade or branch.

However, I think bigheads education response was shortsighted, becoming aircrew is not the highest educational hurdle to jump to get in the mob and should not be used as a defence of flying pay.

Regards

Retard

[SidHolding]

Maybe I'm really missing something here.... All the old editions of AP3392 are surely replaced by the current edition, and that states:

(1). With effect from 1 Apr 03, NCA who began IOT on or before 31 Mar 03, will continue to receive their NCA rate of FP during IOT. On commissioning and during Pilot or WSO training, they will continue to receive their NCA rate of FP until such time as they have completed a 72 week QP, or are suspended from such training. They will then transfer to the Initial Rate of FP for officers and will remain at this rate for 4 years. However, time spent in receipt of NCA rates of FP is to be counted towards progression up the officer rates of FP.

So, if you started IOT before 1 Apr 03, then these are your terms?!?

[Avtur]

It seems that those affected believed that the rules have altered from the previous version of AP3392, which was in force at the time of their commissioning, as compared to the current version.

Does this not constitute a change to their Terms of Service, and entitle them to reserve rights of some kind?

[vascodegama]

Unfortunately there is nothing new in any of this. 20 years ago the interpretation of the rules for ex AeOps undergoing Nav training was a hit and miss affair. In those days there were only 2 rates for NCOs and 2 rates for Officers. That still did not prevent problems though.

[Filthy]

Gents,

I think we all realise what the rules are now. The point they are making is that the current regs are S**t and are open to interpretation. Some have and some have not had the so called "credit" for previous service.

I believe someone who has not had credits has instigated a redress at ISK. This has opened a can of worms for those who have, here and elsewhere.

It looks like Messers Blades will be getting some revenue in the coming weeks.

It is Filthy and now fun...........

[JessTheDog]

Surely there must be some journos watching this thread who can spot a nice Sunday story along the line of "tight fisted MoD claws back cash from our heroes"? :E

[mattdog]

As an Ex Dry man myself, I felt that this thread may not have been open to abuse by those down the back, there's always one!
I'm expecting an apology soon dryman!
Remember the network!

On an up beat note, it seems that the number of people that this has affected unknowingly may actually be making a difference. I hear that those up top are now listening due to the number of enquiries.

[day1-week1]

I don't see how this effects NCA in the same way. Even in this years armed forces pay review it states the qualifing period for going to middle rate FP is 'nines years reckonable service, three of which as aircrew'. It has even reconmended reducing the qual period for higher rate to eighteen years reconable.

[Judge Rembrandt]

Matt et al,
Firstly I'd like to say how delighted the vast majority of rearcrew were/are that a few of the good guys get a chance to do what we would all like to - ie FLY. For you 'drygeezar' who appears to take a delight in others discomfort - firkin well GROW UP you muppet. I don't know YET who you are but as Matt alludes.... you will be found out. I don't get mad but in your case will make it my business to get even! Check your six, remove your vitriolic and ill-advised post. The rest of these guys require support here, not some envious and ill-timed smug pish. Understood?
For those, and there are many I know of, that have had this letter I imagine there will be a great deal of support and hope that the shinies sort this out PDQ.
Adminers and bean-counters - get a grip and resolve this fairly.
Rant over.
JR

[JessTheDog]

Perhaps the rationale behind this ruling is that it takes time to get accustomed to the officer lifestyle - the fine wines, trips to the opera, guns and dogs - and to leave the beer and sandwiches of the Sgt's Mess behind. Therefore, the expenditure is not incurred immediately and the extra dosh is not required!

BTW, before I am bombarded with hate mail, this is a joke. Probably not to PTC though!

[ORAC]

So that´s what they mean about going to the dogs.......

[Hoots]

Although I have taken the mick with our officer brothers and sisters in the past, this post does not warrant dryman's response. As a dry man myself I feel disgusted at the comments made by this individual. If his identity becomes known then please feel free to pass it around. As for those fighting this injustice I wish you good fortune in the pursuit of a satisfactory settlement, i.e. the bean counters holding their hands up and saying we got it wrong and write off the costs. After all the recent cutbacks, sorry restructuring their must be some money left in the pot to write off what is a small amount to the air force in the overall great scheme of things, but a considerable amount to those concerned.

Doesn't the MOD state that people are its most important assets, well time for them to prove it.

Good luck people.

[mattdog]

Well, it seems that the good work from all the PSF guys helping us around the bazaars and all the pressure from those who didn't know they were being investigated has paid off!

Case dropped about the NCA to Officer time not counting towards flying pay if you were commissioned pre Apr 03. And for 10 of you out there it means a nice little pay out that you might have been fighting for..... or weren't expecting!! Don't know any names but I'm sure you'll find out soon.

[Prop-Ed]

First round in Brno on you then geezer!


:ok:

[sargod]

On a slightly different subject, has anyone ever heard of a case where an aviator fought and won the drop in flying pay once you have submitted your notice to leave the service. After all we keep doing the same job and they pay us less money... logic?? :confused:

[P-T-Gamekeeper]

No - its contractual, as laid down in PamAir###?.

We are not all entitled to equal pay, or I would be on top whack PA money, & I ain't!

[Max Contingency]

Mattdog - Great news for all 170 of us involved in this and thank you for raising the profile of the issue.

PMA - Thank you for placing such massive and unreasonable pressures on 170 aviators in current flying practise. I wonder have you ever even seen the "Distractions" video?

Dry Geezer - You are an embarrassment to your profession, get rid of your post.

[mattdog]

Sargod

Unfortunately it's quite a wide spread problem and totally unjustified as well in my opinion, check your personal messages!

[A D ENUFF]

sargod

Friend of mine PVR'd and left last year. Never took a drop in FP, think he said he'd found a loophole. I still have his number tucked away so if you'd like me to pursue it for you i'll give him a ring. If your handle is anything to go by you will probably know him anyway. Left to set up a sheep farm in Wales !!

Dry Geezer

I echo the remarks of those before me although I probably have less patience and tolerance than them for abhorrent little t***s like you. Your comments were totally un-called for. Do yourself a favour..........GET A LIFE............ AND APOLOGISE. :

[BEagle]

A D ENUFF, 'Drygeezer' won't be able to apologise as he has now been banned from PPRuNe.

Good riddance!

[A D ENUFF]

Thanks Beags..............and rightly so.

[Non-PC Plod]

mattdog,

I was in a similar situation a few years back, when I was given a resttlement allowance I shouldnt have had on transfer between services. Despite questioning whether I was entitled to the payment, I was assured by the pay office that it was 100% legit. I then spent said money, and 3 years later, out of the blue I had the treasury solicitor demanding that I list my valuables and threatening to send the bailiffs round (just what I needed 10 days before going to NI on a 3 month tour).

I fought this case over about 12 monrths on the basis of "estoppel". From what I remember, the essential arguments are: If you have accepted the money in good faith; if you have taken all reasonable measures to ensure that you were entitled to it; and you have in the meantime spent the money on items you would not otherwise have bought; the mob is "estopped" from taking the money back.

The problem you will encounter is: I managed during my legal battle to get hold of a directive which was not designed for public consumption, which instructs public bodies and pay offices in cases like this to get the money back first (as possession is a large part of the law), and dont worry too much about whether they are entitled to or not. They will do what they can to intimidate and threaten you to give it back.

If you think you have a watertight moral & legal case, stick with it. My complaint went up through the chain of command, with the bean counters throwing it back at me with spurious legal challenges and accusations of lying etc, which hacked me off massively, until it finally got to the navy board, who backed me up and told the b******s to wind their necks in. Just as well - next appeal would have been to Her Maj, who I doubt as though would have been to interested .

It will take a lot of detective work - I had to get hold of my telephone records from 3 years before at a different address to prove on the itemised bill that I had telephoned the pensions office with a query on the day I had received the payment. They will be ruthless in pursuing you for the money, but eventually your case will come before someone who will look at it objectively.

Good Luck!

[Scale 21]

It was good to see Mattdog beating the pen pushers at city hall- especially as he's a colleague of mine. Good on ya fella!
Reading about the old RAF chestnut on flyingpay reduction and handing in our notice, if anyone has contacts, knows of any loop-holes, people who have done it and won, or can suggest a way forward PLEASE can you help me? My notice is in and I've just had the poke in the eye that says "you're still working for us BOY!"
My Mp is doing a grand job, but one of Reidy's undersecretaries has just regurgetated (sp?) AP3392 to him and me. And my point was exactly that- I've read it and don't beleive it to be lawful.
As one disgruntled aviator to many others, I hope you can help me.
Many Thanks in anticipation.

[The Gorilla]

The legal advice I received and paid handsomely for in 2001 (concerning reduction of pay under pay 2000) was this:

If your employer fundamentally changes your terms of conditions or employment, then you have a period of three months maximum to register your complaint. If you go outside the three months then you are deemed to have accepted the changes.

If you decide not to accept the said changes then you are ENTITLED to leave under the normal notice period that the law allows. For those of you in HM Armed Farces that equates to between 3 months and 6 months depending on your circumstances. MOD and PMA can say what they like to contradict it, and they will but it is the law.

I eventually left for different reasons, was quoted 12 months by PMA as a PVR waiting time and was out in less than 5 months!! If you have another job to go to then they have to prove their operational reasons for keeping you on.

I suggest any reputable solicitor specialising in employment law would be a good starting point, but they do not come cheap and the MOD/PMA believe they are above the law of the land..

:ok:

[BATS]

Having just looked at AP3392, the reduction in FP for officers on PVR/Redundancy apparently only applies before 38/16; apparently, it does not apply if you are passed the 38/16 point. Also, in the redundancy DCI it appears that if you apply you will take a cut in FP and if you are 'selected' you do not.

It also appears that you do not take the cut in FP if you decide to leave at at a recognised break point (38 or 44). As I have applied for redundancy and have an option at 44 in the none to distant future, can anyone tell me how the rules have been applied in tranche 1 ? grateful for the good/bad news....

BT

[ProfessionalStudent]

Mattdog

Just a quick note to say thanks to you and all the others that have brought this issue to light with PMA and PMA Legal. I have just received £3500 back-pay for under-issued flying pay and been put on to the enhanced pilot's rate of flying pay. And I have a letter from PMA naming me specifically for receipt of such, so I can go and spend it without fear of them wanting it all back next month!

Gentlemen, a small battle has been won, but the war still rages on unrelenting...

Oh, and for the benefit of Drygeezer (whom though banned must still read pprune), I think it'll go towards upgrading my sports car (not my saloon or motorbike), but only after I return to my massive house in Hampshire from my mahoosively expensive holiday to Africa. Chiseller.

[Filthy]

Mattdog and other ex-NCA another battle with the to***rs at PMA won by the few. Is it any wonder they are all being moved to HYC!!!!! May get rid of some of the dead wood!

A nice payout of 7.5K

Thank you to all who gave advice on this matter