PDA

View Full Version : EU Constitution.


ORAC
26th May 2005, 10:45
The Times: French in disarray as they admit EU treaty vote is lost

THE leader of France’s ruling party has privately admitted that Sunday’s referendum on the European constitution will result in a “no” vote, throwing Europe into turmoil.

“The thing is lost,” Nicolas Sarkozy told French ministers during an ill-tempered meeting. “It will be a little ‘no’ or a big ‘no’,” he was quoted as telling Jean-Pierre Raffarin, the Prime Minister, whom he accused of leading a feeble campaign........

The mood of pessimism that descended on the French Government after ten successive polls showing the “no” camp leading was echoed by Valéry Giscard d’Estaing, the former French President, who drafted the constitution. He blamed the failures of the “yes” campaign on the half-heartedness of France’s leaders. “Our current leaders are of course believers in the idea of Europe but in their heart of hearts they are not men and women who are inspired by a European feeling,” he told a French newspaper.

President Chirac will go on television tonight to deliver a last-ditch appeal to his country to resist the temptation to vote “no” and trigger a crisis for the whole European Union. But the President, who called the referendum in July last year but has done little campaigning, was reported to be pessimistic and telling visitors to the Elysée Palace that he expected a “no”.

M Sarkozy’s outburst came after M Raffarin, who is expected to lose his job in the event of a defeat, told ministers and the leadership of M Chirac’s UMP party that they should avoid defeatism but be prepared to limit the damage from the crisis from a “no”, party sources said.

After Philippe Douste-Blazy, the Health Minister, insisted that “we should trust the head of state”, M Sarkozy retorted: “Everything has to change — our way of doing politics . . . the labour law.” He said that the UMP would demand changes after the referendum and that “the Government had better follow the party”, the sources said.

M Sarkozy wants to be President and is locked in a bitter rivalry with M Chirac. The leaking of the row by M Sarkozy’s camp was a sign of the rising bad blood between the party leader and M Chirac’s team......

Paterbrat
26th May 2005, 11:14
All is surely not yet lost. If they say no this time round surely they can just wait a bit and then have another referendum, and another, and...

tony draper
26th May 2005, 11:23
One suspects that the reason Tone still wants our referendum to be held, even if France and Holland vote no, because when they fiddle a bit with the constitution change a word here a sentence there, the French and Dutch will be ordered to take referendums untill they dammwell vote yes, Tone will be able to claim we have had our referendum, we voted yes/no for the old constitution, but this is a new constitution and he did not promise a referendum on this one.
You just watch.
:suspect:

Paterbrat
26th May 2005, 11:32
Mr D your deviosity and/or insight into the mind of our 'glorious leader' is positively spooky. There again he always did say he is an open book, one wonders just which book he had in mind. I once picked up a cracker by Richard Head titled 'All I Know About Women'. It was a quick read!:)

Flip Flop Flyer
26th May 2005, 11:50
Read a fascinating piece about France and the referendum, which gave opposing views along these lines.

Pro

The French love to scare themselves shyteless, and this is what they are doing at the moment. However, they usually emerge from paranoia mode when push comes to shove. Furthermore, let's not forget that the French do suffer from delusions of grandeour and thinks of France as the Great European Leader. It will not do for the Great European Leader not to lead by example.


Contra

Unemployment, unemployment, unemployment. Some areas of France are experiencing 2nd generation unemployment; that is unemployed youngsters who have never seen their parents work. Both the ultra-left and right are appealing to the French national pride, urging people not to relinguish what they say is French soveringty to "Brussels". The ultra-right is also throwing in a fair bit of xenophobia, particularly directed against Turkey's succession to the EU. The ultra-left is advocating that forign workers (the example was Polish truck drivers) should only be allowed to work in the EU (read France) unless they are unionised and paid to local (French) standards.


In either case, the Spanish population have voted yes as have the German Bundestag. The Dutch presently seemes tied, and the newsies are presently keeping themselves fairly busy reporting on France, so haven't had much information about the Kloggers. Trust the Danes to vote no the first time around, as is their tradition. The UK - could this be the reason Blair has saved that'll allow him to step down, following the inevitable no vote?

Yes, no, yes, no, no, yes, no, no. All for the better, if you ask me. The draft constitution needs a re-write, one that is less focused on expansion and additional political integration and more about making Europe a better, safer and more prosperous place for its citizens.

tony draper
26th May 2005, 11:53
Tiz simple Mr P, its what I would do.
:E

The thing that I find absoluely baffling about this whole episode,why in the name of all thats holy did the French arrange to hold a referendum before we held ours? it flys in the face of Gallic shrewdness, they must have a fair idea that the Brits would kick the constitution it into touch, they could have waited a bit, then jumped up and down and howled at us as sabatoures who work for the great satan USA.

Frinstance ,were I Dubya, I would be preparing a diplomatic telegram to Chirac congratulating him on the French excercise in applied democracy and the No vote.
What a bastard you are Drapes,hee hee
:rolleyes:

Paterbrat
26th May 2005, 11:56
That's not spooky. That's frightening Mr D.:uhoh:

Capt.KAOS
26th May 2005, 12:38
My guess Holland votes No as well. No problem, the EU just continues under the Nice treaty.

Politicians will see that the EU people are fed up with hollow promises. If a basic agreement such as the Stability Pact can be treated like a piece of wet newspaper, how do politician think people think about this proposal?

There's an enormous gap between EU politics and reality. Too much promises and too much scaring with wild tales when voting no. Sweden voted no, Denmark voted no, so what happened to them? Did they disappear from the globe? This poll is an excellent opportunity to ventilate the peoples discontent with the EU.


It only takes a politician believing in what he says for the others to stop believing him ~Jean Baudrillard

One suspects that the reason Tone still wants our referendum to be held In case the result is "No" he can retreat politics and save face...

Send Clowns
26th May 2005, 12:43
FFF - what is your source? I understood that the Dutch were even more certain of a "no" vote than the French, with similar margin but fewer undecided.

Why, by the way, do you describe the French public concern as "paranoia"? Or is it a case of "just because your paranoid it doesn't mean they're not out to get you"?

lasernigel
26th May 2005, 13:00
Wouldn't suprise me in the least,that at the last minute there was a miraculous 100 % turnout in the French colonies and all the inhabitants also miraculously voted 100% in favour on the constitution.
Not implying any vote rigging at all.surely the French government wouldn't stoop that low OR would they.:hmm:

BillHicksRules
26th May 2005, 13:18
TD,

My understanding is that the French were never overly happy with the consitution as it was set out. Too many concessions to the UK and smaller nations etc.

They knew exactly how to get round this. Get the country to vote no.

I mean look at the lacklustre campaigning done by the yes camp. It is almost as if they did not want to win.

Why would so many politicos take such risks with their career's you may ask?

Well the real power in France is that which happens behind the scenes, business and the unions.

Now I could be reading too much into all of this or some mad conspiracy nut but then again......?

Cheers

BHR

BenThere
26th May 2005, 13:47
EU should have adopted the US constitution. It isn't copyrighted.

IFTB
26th May 2005, 13:51
Tough decision for a Dutchman living in France.

And NEE , it's not double Dutch!

Curious Pax
26th May 2005, 14:00
A poll by one of the Dutch TV channels last week put No at 54% and Yes at 27%, so looks like No will get it on June 1st. I was surprised to see that this is the first referendum that the Dutch have had. Interestingly the poll isn't binding, but the main parties have said they will abide by it if turn out is more than 30%.

Bloke on the radio yesterday said that the French don't like it because it will mean the EU becoming more like the UK; whilst the UK don't like it because it will mean the EU becoming more like France!

ORAC
26th May 2005, 14:05
Netherlands - How would you vote in the referendum on the European Constitution? (Decided Voters)

Apr. 2005: Yes 48%, No 52%
May 2005: Yes 43%, No 57%

Source: Maurice de Hond
Methodology: Interviews to 2,200 Dutch adults, conducted in May 2005.

Farrell
26th May 2005, 14:24
Everybody I have spoken too this week is voting no!

Grandpa
26th May 2005, 14:35
At least , we were lucky in France to be allowed the right to vote about our future and the future of Europe.

It seems lot of people around didn't get any chance to express their opinion about such an important problem.

So, we had and still have a debate here, everywhere, at work, at home, at the café...........

The campaign was impressive,(and I think it's not realistic to say the OUI leaders didn't try any mean to push us in their directiion, because they monopolised TV Channels, Radio and media in the same direction............without any profit.)

For the moment the polls show an advantage to the NON (54%) and I hope the vote get higher on May 29th.

Why?

THIS ISN'T A CONSTITUTION ?
Having just finished to re-read it and coloured the important negative parts, I can tell you it's an arcane text (French: grimoîre") which would build an inextricable Europe (French: "Usine à gaz").

I wondered why FFF insisted on the extreme.
I heard many arguments in this discussion, from all sides, and the main one which made a majority to lean toward the NON was as follow:

This treaty is leading us in a no-return way.
On economics it's only the transcription of preceeding Europe treaties, which led Europe to more and more unemployment, with a stupid management of Europe Central Bank and €uro's rate.
The splendid quotes about human, social rights are only cosmetics, because the prevailing point is always "free market's values".

These are the points which influenced French ordinary citizens, who are preoccupied by their jobs, their children's future employment, and you don't need to follow Trotskist or Far Right to consider them...........

Should I say "Thank you!" to Mr Barroso, Bolkestein ....et al....because they made it clear this project is good only to the tycoons while Europe workforce will only be considered as a tool to make money and get paid as low as possible, while they compete for the jobs.

Capt.KAOS
26th May 2005, 15:01
Disagree Gramps, (business) tycoons are happy as it is now; Euro (well...ok...more or less...), borderless trade, borderless travel. With the globalisation they can make money how and where ever they want. Politics have failed to explain why the EU is good for us. The EU is/was always a perfect vehicle for France (politics) to get more influence/power in the EU. See the frantic attemps of Chirac to block new members or to limit their power.

People vote No, because they consider it as a law/constitution which is imposed upon them against their will by politician. Now they have the chance to say no. It's like the Titanic approaching an iceberg on full speed...

It is not so much about the new constitution or treaty, but how the EU is perceived by the man in the street. Until now they have been patronized by the politicians who have greatly underestimated the intelligence and power of the people. 2 No's will certainly influence on the future of the EU.
Source: Maurice de Hond Well...he's the last I would refer to. Not very reliable.

Farrell
26th May 2005, 16:20
Or you could do it like the Irish Government did for the Nice Referendum......

They asked us to vote....the result was a flat 'No'....... so they made us vote again until we got the right answer!!

Two weeks after that, I left Ireland vowing never to return! :rolleyes:

West Coast
26th May 2005, 17:36
I guess this will show where business ends and politics starts. Its one thing to allow free trade, quite another to give up a larger part of your identity in an attempt to cultivate a homogeneous society


Long live nationalism?.

ORAC
26th May 2005, 17:44
If the French and the Dutch reject the EU Constitution on Sunday and Wednesday, they should re-run the referendums, the current president of the EU, Jean-Claude Juncker, has said.

"If at the end of the ratification process, we do not manage to solve the problems, the countries that would have said No, would have to ask themselves the question again", Mr Juncker said in an interview with Belgian daily Le Soir........

Until they get it right of course.......

reynoldsno1
26th May 2005, 21:14
Always amazes me that the US constitution allows individual states far more autonomy than the EU constitution gives individual States ....

It's the consitution that needs fixing, not the referenda ... the proles are cleverer than the politicians....

Grandpa
26th May 2005, 21:38
At least on this point: this Constitution wouldn't change the economic policies we had to endure.

In fact, using a term which is now unpronounceable after it has been used so often: it would be "engraved on marble" (I don't know if you use this for "gravé dans le marbre" which means you can't get rid of it here).

Then, even if the NON wins (which I hope), or the OUI (which I fear), the margin will not be so large -according to the polls- that you could tell there is an overwhelming approval or reject.

The situation is very different from the rejection of Le Pen at second round of Presidential election by 80% of the voters.

The rejection comes mainly from the working men, who have learned by experience about social relations and the influence of Europe treaties on their day to day life, about the trend for high profits for managers and owners even when they close shops while wages are in stagnation (when you are lucky enough to keep your job!)

Globalisation is now showing where it leads, ljust as we have seen where deregulation has led Air Transport, and this Constitution isn't the right response to it.

Astrodome
26th May 2005, 21:43
Deafening silence from the Europhiles !

Several months ago, one couldn't move for the criticism by the Europhiles about how good Europe was and how well France was doing.

I think Grandpa has finally proved us Europhobes right after all?

He does represent a French view and clearly his opinion is that all is not well.

Couldn't agree more.

airship
26th May 2005, 22:05
Don't get your hopes up too high Astrodome! Maybe us Europhiles are just more discerning than your average Europhobe? :D We know that politicians, even well-meaning ones, often distort the truth and we don't appreciate having stuff thrust down our gobs anymore...! But perhaps where you come from, politicians are of a different calibre?! :}

Voting NO won't change the way Europe functions. When they get the Constitution right and finally take the time and effort to communicate with Europhiles instead of treating us as mere fungus to be kept in the dark until they think we're ready to be harvested... :yuk:

BTW, I think the EU should make some provisions in order to accommodate all the Europhobes. Perhaps we could ask for the establishment of a few Europhobe reservations? The UK one could be somewhere up in Scotland, how's the outer Hebrides suit you...?! :E

Grandpa
27th May 2005, 07:18
May I add the majority of NON voters here are Europhile........but they know building Europe isn't a fairy tale, because heavy interests are at stake, and we only want the best for it .....or at least avoid the worst!

shack
27th May 2005, 08:25
I agree with Grandpa ---and I am going to vote NON

Flip Flop Flyer
27th May 2005, 08:35
Not my words, but those of a Spanish reporter who's been living in France for the past 20+ years.

Capt.KAOS
27th May 2005, 08:37
Long live nationalism?. Not quite that simple, Westie. The Dutch are actually pro EU, but this legislation is all going a bit too fast. Things are arranged over their head by politicians with their own agenda and it has never been asked or explained what exactly is going on to the people. A "No" is not exactly a No against Europe, it's a No against the politicians and a warning to take the people serious.

Second a Dutch "No" is also inspired by the disastrous introduction of the € which has triggered inflation and price increases and the story about the undervaluation of the Guilder against the Deutschmark at the time the € was fixed. Another sign that small countries are crushed by the bigger states like Germany and France.

Interesting fact is that the so called "Yes" campagne of the Dutch government actually increased the number of "No" voters and where 85% of the Dutch Parliament is "Yes", 60% of the Dutch population is "No". Talking about a gap between politics and the population...

According this slimy creep Barroso Holland will loose influence in the EU when voting "Nee", now this is utter blackmail and more reason to suspect Brussels.

West Coast
27th May 2005, 18:17
"The Dutch are actually pro EU"

At arms length?

I recently bought a new house and sold the other. I was jazzed about the big pool, the large lot and the general improvement in living conditions it provided. That is till the actual move came about and the reality of the much larger mortgage payment loomed. Find any parallels? I do.
One can be pro EU, pro Europe (not always the same) but still not desire to be assimilited.

Paterbrat
27th May 2005, 18:23
It will result in simply waiting untill the next referendum and the next and...:zzz:

BenThere
27th May 2005, 19:19
It's like the .45 Kimber Pro Carry I keep in my house to blow away anyone foolish enough to invade my premises. I constantly do battle with votes and argument to keep my right to have it. But the pressure to take it from me never goes away.

So it is with Euro state sovereignty.

Capt.KAOS
27th May 2005, 20:29
Find any parallels? Bollox as usual, Westie. Nobody wants to be assimilated, especially the Brits, who have benefitted from the EU the most thanks to Maggie ('I want my money back'), but that doesn't seem to bother you.

That's not all, did you know the Dutch pay the most contribution to the EU? Of course you didn't know. Better get your facts right, before you start comparising. We owe that big pool because we pay the rent (3 Billion Euro/year, unlike other inhabitants). :rolleyes:

Grandpa
28th May 2005, 00:13
...The way we are "informed" by media about this referendum.

I had the opportunity to take part in the last meeting for NON in Paris tonight, it lasted from the late afternoon till the campaign closure at midnight.
Apart from French speakers (coming from all the Left spectrum, from José Bové to Clémentine Autain) we had the pleasure to hear Trade Union leaders and Socialist from all Europe who told us:
"You French are lucky enough because your advice is required.
Please say NON! For yourself, for France, for Europe.....and for us who are allready deprived from our democratic rights!"

Then I drove back home, and suffered two bulletins from France Info, repeating the same message:

"Last meetings in France tonight with Schröder and Zapatero appeals for the OUI, with Hollande and Strauss-Kahn!!!!!"

I discoverd the thousands who were applauding the NON speakers one hour ago didn't exist.

We had been erased like old fashioned members of the Politburo in Stalin era...........

"The people isn't good! Change the people!"

Pilgrim101
28th May 2005, 08:29
No debate on the rebate - until France comes clean on the rigged CAP price freezing policy until 2013 which, surprise surprise, keeps French Agricultural reform in the dark, fuedal ages.

40% of EU's inflated, corrupted budget is spent on agriculture which in fact represents only around 5% of EU GDP.

Viva Brittania ! :E

tony draper
28th May 2005, 08:41
Just heard a interesting snippet on the news,apparently the Dutch referendum is not tying on the Government,apparently the Dutch government has given itself the option of disregarding the result.?
Whats the point of the referendum?

West Coast
29th May 2005, 01:25
"Dutch pay the most contribution to the EU?"

Didn't know, don't care, don't dispute. Whether the Brits embrace the new and improved EU is yet to be seen, same with the Dutch.
Actually it doesn't really matter if you embrace it in its proposed form if the French don't. Is that BS as well?

Grandpa
29th May 2005, 10:27
For sure as soon as she has got a better look!

Then:

"Don't ask for what Europe is doing for YOU.....

.......ask for what you are doing for Europe!"

airship
29th May 2005, 20:04
At the close of voting at 2200 local time, the IPSOS exit poll results give...

NON 55%

Turnout was between 65 to 70%.

So...back to the drawing board? :ok:

tony draper
29th May 2005, 21:46
Well done those French peeps!! the first brick is out the wall,hopefully the whole edifice will tumble soon.
:ok:

Earl
29th May 2005, 21:55
Turkish TV is reporting that because of this the dollar to the Turkish Lirasi rate will increase by up to 75%.
This because the Euro becomes more unstable and very unreliable!
And the dollar more dependable.
Good for us with USD accounts here in Turkey.
Bad for the Euro .
Not really sure what is going on here but most Turks have a USD account and this news is good to them.
If true really good for all.
The dollars has dropped way too low for those of us paid in USD.

Davaar
29th May 2005, 21:58
But why is the title:"French hope dies"? Surely it must be "French hope soars".

Astrodome
29th May 2005, 22:08
So...back to the drawing board? No just back to referendum after referendum until they achieve the 'right' answer !

tart1
29th May 2005, 22:17
Hear, Hear!! Monsieur Draper! :cool:

OneWorld22
29th May 2005, 22:24
Yes an excellent post Draper, individual European countries will find it far easier to compete against the might of the US/NAFTA and the Asian Bloc......:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Tonic Please
29th May 2005, 22:50
Listenin to the channel 2 here, the little marker in the corner says 55.1 % no.

:)

Nil nos tremefacit
29th May 2005, 23:01
Tony Blair promised me a referendum. If I don't get a referendum because the French have voted Non then I will know what I believed when the promise was made - Tony Blair is a liar! I have already e-mailed my MP calling for a referendum now. It would be advisable for everyone to start hammering the point home. Blair ducked the EU issue for the whole general election campaign aided and abetted by the UK media, he must be called to account.

Read the constitution - read the following link http://www.seechange.org/what's%20new/article52briefingreport.htm


It frightens me.

mbga9pgf
29th May 2005, 23:17
All I can say is well done you fromage mangeing surrender monkeys!


For god knows how long I have been a sworn hater of those tossers across the channel. But tonight, I drink a £20 of your finest rouge as a mark of respect for your nationaltwo finger salute to Brussels and their 7 inch bananas! well done Garcons et Filles!

Blair would never allow a free vote now. He will claim no point, cost etc, fact is the coward could never face a crushing 80% defeat so short to the UK picking up control of the EU in 6 months time. And you wonder why Blair is sticking round? Not content with royaly F**king things up in the UK, he plans to go whole hog with the 20 to 30 odd member nations of the EU, turning them all into Hoodie ganged, illiterate mothered socialist scum.

:mad: :mad: :mad:

pom
30th May 2005, 01:02
Whoopee! The French said NON.

I hope Mr Bliar gives us the chance to reinforce this, but I'm sure he'll wriggle out of it.

:ok:

Little Blue
30th May 2005, 05:01
Hey.......don't hold back.....?!!!
Say what you REALLY think?
For this day, alone, I love all things Frog......Gerard Depardieu, Patrick Vieira (ok,....he's really Senegalese, but hey..), Brie, ...hell, even their damned Truckers.....
But, I draw the line at Pissoirs...
Bring it on, Blair, you coward !
:O

Pilgrim101
30th May 2005, 06:20
Merci Beaucoup La Belle France !!!! (And Grandpa, Airship et al :ok: )

Now, about that long promised drink - anyone going to Le Bourget ?

Our arrogant and out of touch "Ruling Classes" now have a bloody nose from the little people at last. Perhaps a sign of more to come for our incompetent, vain and self aggrandising "leaders" ?

ORAC
30th May 2005, 06:49
Come on you Cloggies, can´t let the French outdo you with 54%, how about 60%?... ;)

IFTB
30th May 2005, 07:16
Woha ORAC ! Waita minute, I can only vote in one country at the time! :}

Grandpa
30th May 2005, 07:19
If you don't mind, my opinion may be different from many here, but I think it gives you some clues about the French vote.

This NON cames mainly from these categories who suffer the most from unemployment, and this is the hardest of sufferings : so while plush areas in Paris expressed their OUI, the NON came overwhelmingly from the poor outskirt of the big cities.

What does it say?

This is a mark of defiance against the ruling class, not only in France but in many European countries, against their support in the media..............and above all a rejection of the policies followed since years as regard economics and social in these countries and by Europe itself.

Please note that while the Constitution project was approved by many Parliaments abroad, it could have been the case in France, and our distinguished MP puppet would have approved it with 90% majority.

It means a lot of our politicians will have to retire, and political structures to reform in order to serve people interests and not to comply anymore with the bureaucrats and the bankers.

I hope we can NOW build Europe we all dream of, on Solidarity instead of "free market competition", with enhanced situation for salarymen and women, better public and social services, this allowing the popular support needed to reach a powerfull expression of people feeling and political advices inside and outside this Continent.

We French appreciated much the support from leaders of European mobilised against this Constitution.

I personnally enjoyed the messages from UK MPs, from Germany, from Belgium, from Sweden, Italy, Poland, Netherland, Denmark, Greece, Romania, Austria...... who came at the NON meeting to support OUR ideas which are THEIRS too.

( I'm waiting for next Giscard's speach at Académie Française....)

Capt.KAOS
30th May 2005, 08:11
Don't think so ORAC, it'll be in the region between 52-55% "Nee".

It'll teach the arrogant political elite in future will stop arranging everything behind the back of the European voter.

Still, at the end I think a United Europe is imperative to survive in the current globalisation. Hopefully the politician will find a way to motivate the population and stop using it for their own agenda. Clearly everything went much to fast and in the usual political backrooms, without proper explanation/consultation to the voters.

It's like sitting in a speeding car, finally we found the brake...

ORAC
30th May 2005, 08:23
Every one in Europe doesn´t want the same thing. The French voted no for different reasons to why the Dutch will - and almost diametrically opposed reasons as to why the UK would. We get along with our differences, it is the politicians trying to homogenise us which is the problem.

The Euro has many of the same problems, the differing needs of each country are such that the one rate is causing explosive inflation in house and other prices in some nations and depression in others. I wonder how lomg it can last.....

Blacksheep
30th May 2005, 08:42
Don't get too delighted. The French said "Non" for all the wrong reasons.

Without a proper constitution, the future is simply more unconstitutional action by that bunch of corrupt, unelected political has-beens sitting in their sinecures at the EU Commission.

CargoMatatu
30th May 2005, 08:58
I'm half with Blacksheep on this one.

Unfortunately, so many populations these days take important votes/referendums as an opportunity to excercise a vote of no confidence in some other issues they may have with their governments; and I'm pretty sure this is a large percentage of what happened here.

However; speaking as someone who is pro-Europe, I feel that a lot of the population is saying that they like Europe as it is and don't really want to see any further change, or steps towards a Federal set-up.

Most of my friends and neighbours here in the Green Heart of Europe are pro-Europe, but are also fiercely proud of who they are - French, German, Belgian, Luxembourgish, Portuguese, etc. We all maintain and defend our individual identities/Nationalities, yet enjoy living, working and socialising together and sharing our traditions.

What most people don't realise is that just about all of the proposed Constitution is already in existance in the Treaty of Rome that the original members signed up to in 1958.

Maybe it's time for Europe to just take a bit of a breather and take some time out for a while.

May the Matatu be with you.

Matatu Man:cool:

Baron rouge
30th May 2005, 08:58
Don't get too delighted. The French said "Non" for all the wrong reasons.

Is it a wrong reason to refuse the anglosaxon model of society where like in England you have:
- no proper Health Care , people waiting more than two years before having medical teatment.
-no decent salaries people having to work 60 hours a week just to survive.
-no proper pension system , people aged 75/85 having to continue to work again just to survive.

All that in a country where companies are making more and more profit.

if this is your choice of society, then you are right we French don't want it for our children !

ORAC
30th May 2005, 09:15
Apart, of course, from the 10%+ unemployed in France who have no salary at all - and had their allowances slashed last year.

In spite of the problems caused by Gordon Brown, I believe the funding of UK pensions is in a far far better position than that of any other country in Europe.

There may be problems with the NHS, but if there are they are not caused by it being part of the "anglo saxon model". It is more socialist in structure and funding than that of France........

panda-k-bear
30th May 2005, 09:36
ORAC - you are right about the health system being far more socialist in the U.K. but in my (limited) experience the French system is far, far superior. Unemployment is a very serious issue, though.

tony draper
30th May 2005, 09:45
I thought the constiution was dead in the water if one country did not ratify it?,I see the they are already starting to hum and har "well mebbee this mebbee that squirm and try to wriggle out of that.
Go back to being Common Market, bollix to US of E.
:suspect:
PS As I said earlier it is in Tones interest to go ahead with our referendum,even though the result is immaterial, he will try and push for it, then, when they try and push the next lot of Brussels bullshite on to us ,he can say we have had the referendum, I did not promise you a referendum on this.
Don't think we will see many more referendums in Europe somehow.

ORAC
30th May 2005, 09:58
Indeed no Mr Draper. The timetable says that the parliament of each nation must ratify it by, I believe, November 2006. Plenty of time yet to put things right.

The mistake, of course, was allowing any of the nations to use these referenda thingies. In the states where the decision was kept in the hands of politicians who could be bought - sorry, who could be replied upon to act in their nation´s best interests - no such problems arise.

So, play this down as much as possible, let it all tide over and explain it as a protest vote against the government over other issues etc. Then, at the next election, get the manifesto of each main party to give a, vague, principal of support for a united europe - and then, whoever wins, get the parliament to vote it through on the basis of their "mandate" from the people.

At that stage, Tony having cancelled the UK referendum as "unnecessary", the decision will be left to a rushed vote in the House due to the deadline

It´ll all work out according to plan in the long run, you´ll see. :E

Capt.KAOS
30th May 2005, 10:05
Money talks, bullshite walks. Spain, which has very much benefitted from the EU, voted yes (77%) in a referendum in February. France and Holland only got the low cards in the EU flop, at least that's how it's perceived by the population. How far can solidarity go? Germany's parliament has cleared the EU constitution, but I'm sure a referendum will show a different result in view of the unemployement there.

effortless
30th May 2005, 10:20
I didn't like the constitution because it was too long, too hard to read and never explained properly. I think that, since the EU is expanding so (too) rapidly, we need a sensible piece of paper to use as a reference to run and keep track of the show. This piece of paper should not be abstruse or occluded by verbiage. The US constitution is a much simpler document in essence but it has bred a peculiar class of lawyer which has an inordinate power in that system. This is with a constirution started simple but which has grown over the years with ammendments. What on earth would an EU constitution be like in a hundred years having started so complicated?

airship
30th May 2005, 12:15
The EU constitution is not yet dead. I realise that this will come as a disappointment to Drapes and fellow Europhobes.

But it has caught a bad flu and the EU specialists are waiting for the test results to come back before further serious comment. The test results, in the form of the Dutch referendum this Wednesday, will confirm whether or not this flu is a variant of the SARS H5N1 virus. That will pretty much determine whether it is merely an isolated case of French foul play or more generalised fowl play. The EU probably has only a limited stock of the required vaccine at hand. If the virus is contained, I'm sure that the EU has the necessary facilities in order to ensure a speedy recovery of the patient after a period of intensive care. The danger of course, is the very real possibility that the virus spreads and mutates. :O

Every EU nation out there still to ratify the Constitution, should have the opportunity to do so (shame on all the countries who didn't have referendums BTW...?!) in order to determine the true extent of any eventual flu pandemic.

Any attempt at a new French referendum will have to wait for a new French President and government. Unless Jacques Chirac resigns, this won't happen until 2007 at the earliest. In the present political climate, the French NON is doomed to be repeated otherwise.

A reflection regarding the €URO which so many appear to criticise: The USA manages very well with a single currency. Do the people who finger the €URO, naively think that growth or economic outlook is spread evenly across the whole of the USA? There are other mechanisms that states (and even sovereign EU ones) have available. One day, oil won't be priced in dollars anymore. Of course, that could mean that it might be priced in Yuan or Rupees, not necessarily €uros... :(

Grandpa
30th May 2005, 13:22
.............Hey!............This was the Titanic no-return cruise!
"Not in our name!" said the French...............

Then I'm not sure about soccer players nationality, but I have to pass the information: Gérard Depardieu made himself ridiculous a few weeks ago, reading a page from Victor Hugo (who could not forbid it.....) in defense of the late Constitution project.

Nick Riviera
30th May 2005, 13:46
Airship

Comparing the euro to the dollar is such a bad analogy that even the most rabid euro proponents no longer use it. Seriously, think about why it is comparing apples and oranges.

ORAC
30th May 2005, 14:06
Capt KAOS,

CNN: Polls in the Netherlands, which holds its own referendum on the constitution on Wednesday, suggest the "No" camp there is leading by 60-40 percent, and the momentum is likely to gain with the defeat in France.... :ok:

Capt.KAOS
30th May 2005, 14:38
We'll see ORAC, one can't deny the boost from France. For sure our PM Harry Potter is relieved by the French Non ;)

airship
30th May 2005, 15:11
Nick Riviera said: Comparing the euro to the dollar is such a bad analogy that even the most rabid euro proponents no longer use it. Seriously, think about why it is comparing apples and oranges. I can only express the following:

Anytime...

...anyone buys an (imperial) gallon or litre of fuel for their car, they're actually buying US dollars first,

...an American airline or any other buys an Airbus, they're buying US dollars first,

...the only time an American has to buy another currency is when they want to buy French wine or salami ;) ,

...the drugs cartels or other International crime syndicates start shifting their funds, they tend to use US dollars :uhoh: ,

The US dollar is almost beyond laundering by now. I don't want to appear biased - I would pose the question of whether or not any paper money these days really reflects the value of a day's labour, it appears that any savvy investor or chief executive would be hard put to do better if he was printing the stuff on his own HP printer. And in order to facilitate the free movement of legal capital (whether or not it's merely evading or avoiding legitimate taxes), we've turned a blind eye to all the nasty money flooding certain economies...

Yes, I became paranoid once I learned that some individuals had accumulated sufficient wealth in order to be able to give more of it away that it makes a mockery of many countries' efforts... :sad:

corrected for ze speling errors... :O

Pilgrim101
30th May 2005, 16:27
Sorry Airship,

You're just making too much sense in that posting, for this forum !;)

Or am I just soaking up the euphoria of seeing Blair and all the other pompous [email protected] finally get a well deserved smacking from a long suffering public ?

No matter what the motives for voting "Non", it was more a put down for the political leeches we all suffer than any real debate on Europe - wherever that is ! (Is it anywhere near my apartment in Strasbourg ? Do you think anyone might pop in and clean it up a bit before my girlfriend gets back from Dubai ? (I should have finished my tour here last week but got delayed - !) :}

Baron rouge
30th May 2005, 17:21
In spite of the problems caused by Gordon Brown, I believe the funding of UK pensions is in a far far better position than that of any other country in Europe.

ORAC, I am not speaking about your big fat BA pension, which if I am right will be fat as long as BA exist and pays for it . Otherwise you could find yourself in the same scheme as all the ENRON employees...

No I just ask you to open your eyes next time you are walking in a BAA terminal or in london streets and look at all these people who could be your grandfather or grand mother and are still forced to do little low paid jobs just to survive...
Do you really think this a amodel of society for Europe.?

and that's just what the Europeean constitution promise us and you find it too social !!! you must be very angry at your parents sending you away in college at the age of six, to think it is the right way to treat old folks.

Paterbrat
30th May 2005, 17:58
It's quite cheering to discover so many who fondly imagine what we says is heard or even acted upon. Having become become far more cynical recently about such utopian ideals was for instance recently amused to see the mayor of London pushing out yet another 'poll' on the congestion charges and it's enlargement. Surely the last one turned up the fact that it wasn't popular and had been largely rejected. It seems that when an 'incorrect' decision has been reached by the masses the proposal is either reworded or simply rescheduled for a later date when the 'right' decision can hopefully be reached.

The EU constitution is of course not quite so straightforward an issue as Red Kens money making schemes, however was it not incredibly wordy and a nightmare to wade through let alone make sense of? The number of countries involved and the negotiations gone through of course would have been nightmarishly complex to put together and to try and do it all again quite apart from the cost and time is probably out of the question.

As some have suggested less is sometimes more and although it is a complicated subject are we not being strangled by the ammount of legislation and documentation coming from Brussels. People may feel that the ever increasing flow of red tape, not only from their home government which was hard enough to keep up with anyway, is getting too much with what they now must additionaly start taking heed of. Yet another layer of do's and dont's much of which seems to be getting increasingly detailed and restrictive.

They probably are simply getting fed up with trying to cope with that and all the changes they are trying to adapt to many of which they are not particularly keen on anyway. A lot of the perceptions may well not be entirely correct but there does seem to be a huge mass of people out there who are saying that too much too soon of what we aren't being allowed to understand before it is forced down our throats is a step too far. For the time being that NON might just have been a 'whoah hold it right here for a bit!'

Or then again maybe they were just saying 'Up yours!' to the French political establishment.

Earl
30th May 2005, 18:12
Turkish TV reporting that Euro to dollar changes may have big impact tomorrow.
Reason is that today is Memorial day in the USA and the markets are closed.
Lets see what happens.
About time the Turkish Liarasi improved to the USD.
Many in Turkey will make a small fortune if this happens!
As even most locals here carry USD accounts in the banks.
Talking with the banks today on the phone the bank manager said they believe the Euro is too unstable to rely on.

ORAC
30th May 2005, 18:48
Never worked for an airline. Haven't got a big pension. Also realise that pensions are not paid out of a magic pot of gold, but out of the wages of the present generation of workers. Europe has an aging population due to a falling birthrate and extended lifespans. The ratio of workers to pensioners in 2030 will make the UK level, let alone the French or Italian, of pension unaffordable, with around 1 pensioner per worker.

The only solutions are to either lower the pensions or delay the age at which it is given, or a mixture of both. Governments recognise this but are unable to persuade the voters to agree to it, so they are slowly walking towards a cliff...

Strangely, the UK seems to have a solution which incorporates both of the above, plus a third - bringing in a large number of immigrant workers to expand the work force. Exactly what the French are worried about and voted down.

Fear for your grandchildren, not your grandparents....

tony draper
30th May 2005, 18:58
Isn't another reason for this pension shortfall that successive governments instead of investing national insurance monies taken off the citizenry when they were working, promply up and spent the buggah?
:rolleyes:

ORAC
30th May 2005, 19:02
If so, at least they got something for their money. Otherwise it would have been invested in British Coal, British Steel, British Leyland etc etc. The return being in the order of 0.00001p in the pound........

Oh! Sorry, just remembered, that's what they did do......

IB4138
30th May 2005, 19:45
Please remember that the state retirement age in Spain is already 70 for both men and women.

The health service is far superior to the UK.

Spain has a lot going for it. Life is good here and we still make our own laws. The rest of Europe does not like the amnisty given to illegals to become legitimate residents, again for all the wrong reasons.

Bringing all these jobs in from the black economy will raise up to 1.5 billion euro in social security contributions. Get tough after, but solving the present problem was the way to go, not to ignore it and deport a few who are caught each year to be replaced by more illegals, as in the UK.

How many illegals are working in the black economy in the UK and other northern European States?

IMO referendums on this scale never work and are used for the wrong reasons by the public to protest against their present government. If the people are happy with their elected representatives, you are more likey to get a view that concurs with the governments view, as has happened here in Spain.

Reading between the lines, the French have until November to "correct" their vote to what their President wants!

The populus will be subject to large doses of bird food, on the basis of "If at first you don't suck seed, try, try again!"

Bliars "time for reflection", is more along the lines...think before you say "No", especially as the UK is about to take over the EU presidency and I don't want to have all this sh1t on my hands!

If he were supporting a "No" vote, would the electorate be more likely to bring in a "Yes" verdict?

Baron rouge
30th May 2005, 19:53
The only solutions are to either lower the pensions or delay the age at which it is given, or a mixture of both. Governments recognise this but are unable to persuade the voters to agree to it, so they are slowly walking towards a cliff...

What about taking the money where it is ?

Industry and services have never produced as much wealth as nowaday, just getting the rich, I mean the filthy rich a little less rich would suffice to pay the pensions.

Astrodome
30th May 2005, 20:18
Industry and services have never produced as much wealth as nowaday, just getting the rich, I mean the filthy rich a little less rich would suffice to pay the pensions In the UK pension funds make their wealth (i.e. the money required to pay for their members pensions) by guess what ??

Investing the members contributions in the stockmarket.

Practically every large Company or Company of any consequence has as a large proportion of its shareholders, the pension funds.

So to argue that wealth is going straight to the pockets of one or two 'fat cats' is to seriously misunderstand modern economics.

Economics at least as practiced in the UK.

As a member a Country who is one of the largest exporters of arms, I think that you need to take a closer look at your own economic set up in France.

France has never been much concerned about the morals of its deals or the purpose to which they are put.

I note also that the recent involvement of Total (the French national oil company) with a number of questionable regimes requires one to have a certain knack of closing ones eyes to how France plc actually makes its money.

Its not all cheese and wine you know.

Let us all be quite clear that the ONLY reason that France voted against the Constitution was that for once France would not be a winner.

The EU was welcome as long as France plc did not lose out economically. Now that it may not be then France is ready to pull the plug.

By the way I speak as one who works with a lot of French people, for a very large French company, and who visits France quite regularly for work.

I don't dislike the French, merely the double standards that are applied to ensure that France plc is not disadvantaged.

IB4138
30th May 2005, 20:26
What has this to do with currency rates?

I have been puzzled all day.

Just another set of crooks masquerading as ligitimate dealers making a turn out of news that is perceived to be bad, at the expense of Joe Public. Suppose the stock markets will be similarly effected.

I will not hijack this thread on dealers and markets, as I could go on at length.

Suffice to say that heavy new legislation is required in these greatly abused areas to protect peoples investments....for pension purposes or other.

BenThere
30th May 2005, 20:28
The only way to secure your pension is to live within your means, save a good portion, and either buy gold coins or invest it in a diversified portfolio of well-managed companies proven over time. Vote for politicians who express a view that your money not be taken away from you.

The grasshoppers working into their seventies must share the biggest part of the blame themselves. You might query of them what they would do differently.

To pertain to the thread: Can anyone tell me where to read what the European equivalents of the 'Blue' states write about how could the French people be so stupid in their free election?

reynoldsno1
30th May 2005, 21:18
The current EU constitution is 428 pages long. I am sure it will be redrafted and simplified and come in at around 800 pages....

Grandpa
30th May 2005, 22:15
....then I realised he is flying in an unusual path in order to see part of it.

NON was voted mainly by the working class in France after hard debates and as you know 70% of French citizens took part in the vote, and among them 55% voted NON.

In Spain, as far as I know ( IB4318 correct me if this is not accurate please) only 30% of the electorate came to vote, so you can't tell anything about Spaniards opinion about this Constitution.............a part that they were not interested in it.

Now come on my friends, the problem ISN'T for a country to gain or lose in future Europe, it's to make sure we ALL gain.

Our point here was the Constitution would have made all of us losers, because we should have had to work more for less money to make a living, and social and tax dumping was organised in this text.

The alternative proposal is to create minimum salary and manage for it to converge toward upper level according to state of economy in each country( while the text FORBIDS "social harmonisation") and use Europe's Central Bank funds to help the countries in the need.

pom
31st May 2005, 00:54
The UK used to have the best funded pensions in the EU. After 7 years of Gordon Brown taking £5bn a year out of the system, we are now number 5. At least when the constitution is forced on us one way or another, we will no longer have to top up the pesions for every other country.

2R
31st May 2005, 00:55
Vive La France Libre

Vive La France Libre


I would like to congradulate them on exercising their democratic rights to vote.After all so many young people fought so hard and some paid the highest price for the freedom in europe that some would remove as a inconvienence to totalitarian rule .
Vox Dei Vox Populari

Onewordanswer
31st May 2005, 08:41
EU ? US ?..........Your al screwed China will kick ass the rots already set HEHEHEHEHEHEHEHE:O

zed3
31st May 2005, 09:57
Surely the logical thing for the Brussels bosses to do now , is to say , OK , HQ is Brussels for all meetings , we don't need Strasbourg anymore , you can have it . Thus saving us taxpayers millions every month in document removal costs and travel expenses .
Oh what justice ! But they won't .

Gouabafla
31st May 2005, 10:27
The French voted against Chirac, so Jacques has got his revenge by appointing as Prime minister a man who has never been voted for by anyone for anything. Seems a strange way to reply to a referendum.

tony draper
31st May 2005, 11:23
I have a idea, why don't we throw France out of the EU?, well its a start.
:E

paulc
31st May 2005, 11:27
perhaps it has dawned on the french that they are no longer a big fish in a small pond or perhaps the constitution did not have a "we can ignore this bit if we do not like it without any censure" clause as most of the other treaties have done :)

Baron rouge
31st May 2005, 16:21
I have a idea, why don't we throw France out of the EU?, well its a start.

Draper, before England think about throwing anybody out of Europe, why don't you first try to join the Euro .

Of course it would be very very difficult for a country with two third of the population so much relying on credit than to join Euro would mean devaluating the pound by nearly 50%.:cool:

tony draper
31st May 2005, 16:27
Once we gain complete control Baron,(and the plan is going well) the Euro will be scrapped and the pound will be the new Euro currency,
Well chaps thats France isolated, just Germany to go,
:rolleyes:

Baron rouge
31st May 2005, 17:00
As a member a Country who is one of the largest exporters of arms, I think that you need to take a closer look at your own economic set up in France.

France has never been much concerned about the morals of its deals or the purpose to which they are put.

I note also that the recent involvement of Total (the French national oil company) with a number of questionable regimes requires one to have a certain knack of closing ones eyes to how France plc actually makes its money.


ASTRODROME, it is so sweet to receive lessons from an English whose anscestors have had no rest until they exterminated the local population, be it in America, Australia or New Zealand , who submitted coutries like Wales, Scotland or Ireland to terrible deprivations and are still imposing their laws on these countries.

Speaking about arms sales, do you know that on the exocet the Argentinians used during the Falkland war it was written "made in England".

The French sell arms and so do Americans your heroes and yourself and in much greater quantities and no allways to very nice people.. :cool:

In your dream Tony Draper:p how do you think your country on the verge of implosion, be it Economical or social will ever be able to take control of Europe.

The british empire died a long time ago it is about time you realise that.

Do you think british people will continue working 60 hours a week to survive because their T&C\'s are so bad .

Margie may have crushed the minors in 83 but be aware..the street will wake up soon.

tony draper
31st May 2005, 17:20
Its all true!!:( :{

"Its dammed cold in here Carruthers, throw another native on the fire"

:E
French Arms are alus a good buy, they never been used.
:rolleyes:

zed3
31st May 2005, 17:57
Baron rouge ..... pardon me but it's the French who think and firmly believe that they still have an empire ( Europe ) and as for working the hours you wish to work , according to circumstances , THAT is freedom and democracy . Why is the , so called , European Community (!) against this ? France , maybe ? When will the UK get out of and rid of this pest ?

BenThere
31st May 2005, 18:08
The French will be all right for another few years, but if you are French and under 40, you are totally screwed. I live to watch reality dawn on them, but will also mourn the passing of a great nation.

airship
31st May 2005, 18:57
As Gouabafla has pointed out in the other thread, the French President Jacques Chirac has replaced Prime Minister M. Raffarin with the Foreign minister De Villepin. Such arrogance. The appointment of an unelected career diplomat to such an important post is a kick in the teeth for the French, especially considering De Villepin's very strong opinions expressed during campaigning for the OUI side most recently.

Would the last person to leave please turn out the lights... :yuk:


:zzz: :zzz: :zzz:


Oh, but wait a moment. Nicolas Sarkozy is back in the government again as Interior Minister and gets to keep his position as leader of Jacques Chirac's own ruling UMP party. All is forgiven then, or is this a last ditch effort on the part of the President?! I have a theory, the ball-game has already moved on from the battle over the EU Constitution...it is now about the very survival of the French centre-right:

Calling a snap general election right now would definitely see the socialists coming back in even though there is no really credible leader on the left at present, unless Lionel Jospin deigns to return from the political wilderness perhaps. Together with another period of very uncomfortable co-habitation (a centre-right President with socialist government). In 2007, France must have both a general and Presidential election. Unless France experiences a miraculous economic recovery before then, this might allow a new leader to emerge on the French left. Therefore, I surmise that Jacques Chirac's intention may well be to resign as President in the near future, perhaps later this year or early 2006, whilst the left is still in disarray and cannot produce a respectable Presidential candidate. Nicolas Sarkozy will then emerge as the new French President...?! :O

Hehe...there's really someone up there after all. It makes sense to merge common interests...we don't necessarily need a new treaty everytime though! :)

Baron rouge
31st May 2005, 19:26
The French will be all right for another few years, but if you are French and under 40, you are totally screwed. I live to watch reality dawn on them, but will also mourn the passing of a great nation.

At least we are not already screwed the way you yanks are...

No welfare, no social security, Pensions unpaid by the companies (ENRON, US AIRWAYS, etc...) Half the population so Obese that they can't even mouve...

Really a wonderful country and a President lying as his friend Bliar to the delight of all the electors...

as for working the hours you wish to work , according to circumstances , THAT is freedom and democracy . Why is the , so called , European Community (!) against this ? France , maybe ? When will the UK get out of and rid of this pest ?

Not so long ago it was called slavery !

I understand the restrictions imposed by EU to salarial work is not to the taste of these 18th century bosses who seem to be the rule in England.

When you NEED to work 60 hours a day just to survive, it is not freedom, it is slavery... and that\'s exactly what you have now in England... Dickens is back

FLEXJET
31st May 2005, 19:53
French said NO to the constitution.
Why?
Because many of them understood Raffarindum instead of referendum...

More seriously, I'm sure millions of europeans say "thank you France" at this time!

And I say, thank you Chirac because he had this unique sincerity to show such lack of conviction during the campaign!

Capt.KAOS
31st May 2005, 20:22
The French will be all right for another few years, but if you are French and under 40, you are totally screwed. I live to watch reality dawn on them, but will also mourn the passing of a great nation. France (and Europe) has survived a lot more (and heavier) storms than your nation BenThere. In the scale of passed storms this is a 3 Beaufort, max...

Grandpa
31st May 2005, 20:35
....while battle goes on between Tony and the Reds.

My feeling is Chirac chose Vilepin for 4 reasons:

- 1 - He is sure to receive applause from French women aged 15 to 80, and from abroad too.

- 2 - Being known around the world as the man who ignored US pressure and refused Iraq war, applauded by UNO General Assembly, he is to be welcomed in 90% of world states when traveling abroad.

- 3 - For same reason, even if his policy isn't approved in France, French people will allways hesitate to sack such an illustrious fellow citizen.

- 4 - While Vilepin is Prime Minister, his worst ennemy Sarkozy is supposed to become Interior Minister, and I guess they will spend their time marking each other...............and Chirac hopes this will ruin Sarko's hope to run for presidency in 2007.

Now let us speak of Mandelsohn please, and Barroso......all that bunch....

con-pilot
31st May 2005, 20:35
Being a self-centered, egotistical, euro-bashing, anglophile, yank who single-handedly won WW I and WWII (just me, not the US) I would like to make a statement about currency regarding the Euro versus the US dollar.

Having just completed a trip around the world I can tell you for a fact that in China they will take US dollars over Euros all the time, as a matter of fact except for banks and money changers one cannot spend Euros. At least I couldn’t use Euros.

Merchants in Turkey will take US dollars faster than Euros.

Merchants in Italy will take US dollars, no problems, and their currency is Euros. Most Italians I talked to hate the Euro.

So I think soon you’ll see the artificial high rate of the Euro to the Dollar soon reverse.

The first good thing the French has done in a long time, maybe they are coming around.

I sure hope so, because I really like French,,,,,,hummm,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,French,,,,,,,,,,er,,, ,,,,.

I know that there has got to be something!

I’m just kidding, I fly a Dassault Falcon 50EX and really like it a lot, it’s a great airplane and having been to the factory in France twice I have meet some really nice people. And the French custom of having a 2 hour lunch with lots of wine doesn’t suck! (Unless you have to fly that day.)
:ok:

BenThere
31st May 2005, 21:16
Baron Rouge,

No offense intended, I'm not anti-French, I was simply pointing out my vision of the future. In your reply you forgot to add low unemployment and steady economic growth as characteristics we Yanks suffer.

And contrary to your post, we do have social security, such as it is, which provides a retirement greater than the per capita GDP of 80 per cent of the world's people. Whether it will last is debatable, but we do have it.

Our diverse population is also so much better assimilated than yours, which has given you a ticking bomb in your midst about which you haven't a clue as to what to do.

And Kaos, my friend, I wasn't addressing the challenges our nations have faced, but what France faces in the next generation. Only time will prove me right or wrong.

airship
31st May 2005, 21:45
...we do have social security, such as it is, which provides a retirement greater than the per capita GDP of 80 per cent of the world's people. You know, if you were to look at that claim more closely, you might find that 80% of the world's retired do in fact still rely...on their family ties in order to survive, which may not be such a bad thing. I don't think that's quite what you had in mind though BenThere?! ;) Time eventually proves everyone right or wrong too...now, what exactly did Alexander the Great have to say?! I forgot. :rolleyes: Anyway, this thread appears to be deteriorating into another France Vs. USA debacle...?! Life goes on...

tony draper
31st May 2005, 21:49
Lets hope the Dutch pull another brick from the wall tomorrow,hmmm lots of Dutch folk want to return to the good old Guilder,nice coin yer guilder was.
:rolleyes:

PorcoRosso
1st Jun 2005, 00:05
paulc

perhaps it has dawned on the french that they are no longer a big fish in a small pond or perhaps the constitution did not have a "we can ignore this bit if we do not like it without any censure" clause as most of the other treaties have done

You mean like : not going to Euro when nearly everybody did ?

ORAC
1st Jun 2005, 04:50
Not joining the Euro was not only legal and moral, but sensible after our previous debacle. Not that we didn't trust everyone to keep to the rules, but it pays to be cautious.

The subsequent breaking of the agreed rule book by France and Germany was reprehensible, the browbeating of others to accept it and change the rules to legitimise it was immoral and economically, to say the least, imprudent.

Now, of course, the nations on the southern flank feel free to do the same. Greece, Italy etc, I believe Portugal's deficit this year will be between 6-8%.

You made this bed, now lie in it.......

paulc
1st Jun 2005, 06:18
PorcoRosso,

and whose economy is in a better state now because of not joining the euro?. The UK was bitten badly by the ERM and the fiddling necessary to meet the entry criteria would not have been in our best interests so we did not join - any government should / would put the country's best interest first after all the rest of the eu members do it all the time.

Nearly everybody is not everybody - Sweden rejected the euro and seem do be doing ok.

ORAC
1st Jun 2005, 06:26
CNN:

A new poll in the Netherlands shows 60 percent of voters oppose the charter, five percentage points more than the number who rejected the constitution in France. One poll even showed 65 percent of voters plan to vote against.....

tony draper
1st Jun 2005, 09:17
News person on Sky news getting her knickers in a twist,she is interviewing Dutch spokesperson, and is getting her knickers in a right twist, she apparently understand the Dutch people saying no despite Government encouragment to vote yes, but she cannot understand them voting no when the media has been telling them to vote yes, how dare they.
:E

PorcoRosso
1st Jun 2005, 12:04
the fiddling necessary to meet the entry criteria would not have been in our best interests so we did not join

So you can't blame the french for rejecting something they feared not in their interest


Nearly everybody is not everybody - Sweden rejected the euro and seem do be doing ok.

That's why I mentionned "Nearly"

I don't discuss the issue of Euro or Constitution, but the fact France, UK or Germany is free to reject or accept whatever they consider dangerous, inappropriate or compliant with their interest . You did with Euro, we do it with this constitution , at least with this draft .


I was personnally in favour of it, but the complexity of its understanding, the ambiguous aspects of various points played a large role in tis demise . Most of the french are lost at reading it and trying to get the picture ... Since it's a blurr picture, they don't accept it .
Now, if in some ways our brussells technocrats are able to draft an "EU Constitution for dummies" which lay out in simple and clear word its purpose, we may end up with a different vote .

ORAC
1st Jun 2005, 12:09
So you can't blame the french for rejecting something they feared not in their interest

I don´t thinking anyone here has been complaining PorcoRosso. ;)

PorcoRosso
1st Jun 2005, 12:11
Hello Orac

Well, am anticipating ;)

ORAC
1st Jun 2005, 12:14
I presume, on the same basis, there will be no valid grounds for complaint from anyone if the UK rejects any change to the British rebate? :E

tony draper
1st Jun 2005, 12:14
Indeed not, one has nought but a warm fuzzy feeling for the French over this result,we might even concider slying you a few quid from our three billion rebate this year if things get rough.
:E

flapsforty
1st Jun 2005, 13:30
In France, the population at least has tried to understand what they had to vote on. According to various reports, books on the EU constitution (that's not what it is but what has come to be called anyway) were sold in great numbers and many bookstores in France ran out. Which says a great deal about the people of that nation. :ok:

The same problem has not arisen in Holland. My compatriots will vote it down because they are pissed off about the fact that the guilder was undervalued when we converted to the Euro and for no other reason. :rolleyes: The fact that the Euro-effect has nothing to do with the proposed streamlining of the drafts and treaties that govern the functioning of the EU is happily ignored by the great unwashed.

---- when it comes to the right to vote, I lean towards meritocracy ----

Paterbrat
1st Jun 2005, 14:57
It is interesting that the the almalgamation of States in the early days of North America were viewed with at least as much suspicion of the Big Brother motives of the Federal Government then as now. The numbers however were smaller and the ideals and identities of those seeking to get together more similar, their traditions younger and more flexible to change.
In Europe the attempts to weld together the individual countries with centuries of tradition and evolved goverment and legislation is proving much harder. Throw into the mix the altruistic acceptance into tolerant and caring societies of millions of strangers who perhaps come from less developed less tolerant less caring societies and less willing to assimilate into the countries into which they have arrived.
They not only sometimes do not even wish to assimilate but create blocks or areas and maintain strong links with their countries of origin simply acting as counduits back to those countries of revenue and expertise and into the country of yet more of their kin and fellow countrymen. This itself while not neccesarily being a bad thing in terms of being a way of raising standards in those poorer countries, can cause some resentment amongst the host country particularly when the intolerant attitudes of the newly arrived clashes and conflicts with their hosts.
It is being seen that fear of being swamped has been quoted by many of those who did vot NON, althought it would seem to be only one small facet of the issue it should nevertheless be acknowledged by those politicians who espouse the cause of the EU.

airship
1st Jun 2005, 19:32
"The man from Den Helder - he say NEEEEEEEEEEEE!"
"What a rotter, damn!" :(

An exit poll puts the 'no' vote at over 60%.

Do you remember that bit in the 1st Alien movie? Sigourney is making a last supreme effort to rid the Universe of the supreme menace by blowing up the Nostradamus. The ship will auto-destruct in 3 minutes!

I do believe I can hear a loud klaxoning... ;)

Grandpa
1st Jun 2005, 19:55
I heard one minute ago the NEEEEEE!!!! made 63%, they have beaten us but I'm so happy.

Now that this dirty project has been thrown to the dustbin, there are many different ways to build the kind of Europe we want.

€uro could be the best of things, had not the Europe Central Bank been unable to maintain a normal rate (not only UNABLE but REFUSING to do it).

Loans for Europe countries which need it, and credit for Europe's industrial projects.

Stop the trend for Euro-bureaucrats to victimise salarymen and women , with this YES-parliament whose members are not interested in their fellow citizens hard situation.

Enhance Public Services instead of offering it to private owners who only want to make money and don't care for safety.

.......

ORAC
1st Jun 2005, 20:47
Well, if that's what you want in belle Paris, go for it. But it is not what is wanted in the UK, or Holland, etc. That's why this constitution failed, they tried to impose a total uniformity across the EU in everything, and it won't work.

v1r8
1st Jun 2005, 21:48
I'm proud to be Dutch today!

I'm also proud at my French 'neighbrs'

Europe is not the US, I't wont work.

oscarh
1st Jun 2005, 21:50
The Dutch PM seems to feel that the Brits and others should go ahead with referenda.

The rules are clear. NO CONSTITUTION should one nation say no.

Why waste the long millions of pounds that it would cost for others to vote?

When will the power hungry, sometimes unelected rabble understand that the people have spoken and the ratification of this treaty is now DEAD.

Is it too much to hope that we will finish up with a Common Market?

tony draper
1st Jun 2005, 21:53
That EU Presidend (one doesn't even know the chaps name) is wriggling and squirming on newsnight still saying this treaty can be ratified, the mans a feckin idiot.
This will probably be the last referendum Brussels will ever allow us, as we obviously cannot be trusted to do what we are told.
:E

One hopes we are not going to see our Tone standing in the doorway of a aeroplane waving a sheef of papers and saying

"I have in my hand 380 pieces of paper"

There is a precedent yer know.
;)

ORAC
2nd Jun 2005, 04:56
Indpendent:
Germany prepares for unthinkable? Not yet, but it may have to if attitudes don't change.

The euro was unnerved yesterday by a magazine report that the German finance ministry and the Bundesbank are already contemplating how to respond to the previously unthinkable - the collapse of monetary union. The report was immediately denied, but it is indicative of the fragility that exists in currency markets post the French "non" that for a while it was taken quite seriously, and it certainly makes my own hitherto sanguine view of the likely market fall-out from the death of the European constitution seem open to question.......... The more concerning aspect of the Stern magazine story, again denied, is that the German government is planning to blame the euro for Germany's economic malaise.........

Would Germany be better off without the single currency? According to the polls, that's what a growing number of Germans believe, for they look back to a supposedly golden age of economic prowess that existed before the euro was introduced and draw a connection.....
------------------------------------------------------------------

The Dutch hate it, the Germans don't like it. Whither the Euro?

atyourcervix73
2nd Jun 2005, 09:20
An Opinion from the other side of the world (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/index.cfm?c_id=466&ObjectID=10328555)

lasernigel
2nd Jun 2005, 09:31
Why Europe will self-destruct just like the Soviet Union

We can only hope and pray.Best thing the UK could do now is to get out .:ok:

Oh before all the doom and gloom soothsayers say we will lose jobs.....Bullshi*.

tony draper
2nd Jun 2005, 09:34
The man speaks a lot of sense then ruins it with his closing feckwit line.
:cool:

Taildragger55
2nd Jun 2005, 09:49
What a [email protected]

The EU has two streams; free trade which is fantastic and socialist political crap which is doomed anyway, (eventually) since all the new members, the UK and we Micks are economic right wingers who prefer getting rich to screwing with markets.

My prognosis is; constitution will suffer more rejection and be quietly shelved, France and Germany will start economic reforms sooner or later and get back to real sconomic growth.

(edited for term of abuse)

ORAC
2nd Jun 2005, 09:58
Taildragger,

Entitled to your opinion of course, but the French have the opposite point of view. With the present veto rules we are probably in for a decade of impasse and stagnation as each side refuses the others vision.

Serge Halimi (Le Monde Diplomatique) (http://www.guardian.co.uk/eu/story/0,7369,1497191,00.html)

"In the last 20 years, the project dreamed up by the European commission and most governing coalitions of the member states has appeared obsessed only with economic reform, an ever-expanding free-market zone, the dismantling of the welfare state, lower corporate taxes and business-friendly legislation - such as a proposal to liberalise Europe's market for service industries.

France's landslide rejection of the treaty is likely to embolden many of the progressive forces of the EU, bringing about the rethinking of a once-worthy ideal that gradually became distorted into a single market and a military junior partner for the US. Such a reappraisal bears no resemblance to the "federation of fear" that European commission president José Manuel Barroso saw unfolding after Sunday's vote.

All along, "Europe" has been an elite process with shallow roots. In France, a large turnout (70%) has tackled the constitutional project with seriousness and passion. Many politicians in Paris and Brussels probably regret this surge of democracy and will look for ways to pressure the French to hold another vote. But it is unlikely that an informed electorate will change its mind now that it has understood the links between the social devastation at home and the neoliberal policies that spread under the cover of European unification."

Taildragger55
2nd Jun 2005, 10:06
Orac, (Unlikely in a prooner I admit), but I admire practically everything about France-culture, food, health system, liberal aviation regulation..you name it.

But, their anti-business and over -centralised and nationalised economy is making them poorer than they should be. A small number of pro-business changes would do it. Globalisation is not something to complain about, it is something to manage.

paulc
2nd Jun 2005, 11:53
PorcoRosso,

hopefully the french and dutch no votes will be the final nails in the coffin of an eu superstate. perhaps those unelected, unaccountable politico's in brussels will realise that this treaty is a dead duck or will it take others to also vote no.

the eu should go back to its roots as a group of trading nations rather than what its leaders feel it ought to become.

airship
2nd Jun 2005, 12:22
Regarding the link by atyourcervix73 to Garth GEORGE's article in the New Zeeland Herald: is that a paper in Zeebruge? But I thought that was in Belgium? :confused: Oh sorry, New Zealand, that tiny speck out in the Southern ocean?! The ramblings of this GEORGE fellow might be representative of those who have a great big chip on their shoulder over French resistance to their lamb exports. But that's also the place where visitors have to ditch all fresh and frozen foods not of NZ origin before accosting. Or risk having them confiscated and taken home (whoops, I mean't destroyed) by the NZ agricultural authorities. A xenophobic (if I may use his own term) diatribe from a journalist light years away from Europe but who curiously enough, shares the French custom of writing his byline with first name normally and surname all in CAPITALS...?! It can't be helped that the last time New Zealand attracted world attention it was also due to the French. I mean, Rainbow Warrior was a long time ago, it wasn't even a NZ boat...?! ;)

Uhmmm, back to the topic... :O

Grandpa
2nd Jun 2005, 19:52
This question isn't reserved for ORAC, because he knows everything.............

I don't think the majority of Euroland citizens is regretting their old money.....Francs, Marks, Pesetas, Lira.......

No!

The problems were how €uro rate was managed by Europe Central Bank.....

They never made any intervention to prevent €uros from flying at such high altitude compared to $, that it was degrading our industries competitivity, thus pushing unemployment to the worst figures.
I understand the only gain for us was to pay oil cheaper.

This bad management was one of the reasons to vote NON against the Constitution project which allowed this Bank to stay for an undefinite duration, without any control, and which only task was fighting inflation.......

This was my first point.
What is your opinion about €uro?

BenThere
2nd Jun 2005, 21:32
Bon soir, Grand Pere,

As a frequent traveller to Europe, I'm ecstatic about the convenience of the common currency.

As an expatriate living in France 1999-2003 I loved the undervalued Euro as I was paid in US$. As an expatriate living in Italy 2004-2005, I was miserable about the overvalued Euro as I was paid in US$.

I think in terms of buying power, the equilibrium exchange rate should be $1.00-1.10=1 Euro.

European, and in fact, world trade, benefits from the common currency in that it facilitates that trade.

The rub is in how fiscal discipline imposed by the Euro bank takes away a nation's ability to manage its own economy. Also problematic was France and Germany's rigid enforcement of the monetary rules until they wanted to break them for their own national economic purposes. Then the rules weren't so important.

Common trans-European economic policy won't be possible until nations within the community, like yours, dropkick the socialist thinking that continues to enervate their prosperity, and join UK and Eastern components who have seen the ravages of socialism and repented. Then we'll have an EU I can salute, which will yet have a positive impact on the world.

henry crun
2nd Jun 2005, 22:02
airship: Never let the truth get in the way of a good rant, eh ?
Your remarks about NZ's agricultural border checks show how little you know about the situation.

As you say, the Rainbow Warrior was a long time ago.
However, many of us have not forgotten how France threatened NZ with severe economic sanctions if we did not release the two convicted French terrorists into their care.

Then in no time at all they were back home being promoted and given medals.

ORAC
3rd Jun 2005, 06:28
Alice in Wonderland (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-1639055,00.html)

Wingswinger
3rd Jun 2005, 06:57
If ever anyone undecided needed proof that we should leave this shambles, that's it.

Grandpa
3rd Jun 2005, 17:06
I could agree with everything you wrote...........except your last paragraph.

In fact what is asked to the citizens of western Europe, is to degrade their way of life.
Eastern countries joining Europe are in decay : people there are ready to do anything, work after hours, without social protection and for 1/3rd of our salaries.

The gross mistake (if mistake there was.....) was to allow the entry of these countries, without any proper management.

It was evident this entry, based on the free trade principle of the intended Constitution should have led to a crisis, and the destruction of our society.

Jacques Chirac told "France would be the blacksheep of Europe if we vote NON!"
During the campaign we wore stickers with a nice black sheep holding a NON poster.......and now the Dutch are also black sheep.

In Frenspanish, it gives:

"El troupeau
Unido
Jamas sera vencido!"

ORAC
3rd Jun 2005, 17:35
Reference my earlier post about the Euro and Germany see the following. They may only be following this line for election purposes, but with the mood in Germany they are playing with fire, and now the Italians are joining in......
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Daily Telegraph:

Euro is strangling our industry, says German minister

Germany's economy minister, Wolfgang Clement, yesterday lashed out at the single currency, claiming that the perverse effects of monetary union were strangling German industry.

"We're exporting stability within monetary union, and for the good of monetary union. We're paying for that, and it has to be said that the price is not negligible since we're losing comparative advantage of lower real interest rates," he said. "The European-wide interest rate does not take enough account for my taste of Germany's contribution to the rest of Europe," he said, adding to concerns that Berlin is losing patience with the euro.

Mr Clement said Germany was being punished for its success in cutting costs and capping prices since the topsy-turvy result under EMU was ever higher interest rates (once adjusted for inflation) - a penalty rather than a reward. Unemployment has been hovering around the five million mark, the highest since the war......

His attack on the eurozone system echoed the wording of an internal finance ministry document leaked to the German media this week arguing that EMU was driving high inflation economies into further over-heating while at the same driving Germany deeper into slump......

Italy's Lega Nord, part of the ruling coalition, is now openly discussing a possible return to the Italian lira. Andrea Gibelli, chief of the party's parliamentary group, said the moment had come for a powerful uprising against the euro after French and Dutch voters had "smashed the bureaucratic, technocratic, bankers' Europe".

BenThere
3rd Jun 2005, 21:02
Grandpa,

How long will you continue in your thinking as your world slowly falls apart?

Cheers,

Grandpa
3rd Jun 2005, 21:37
If my world falls apart.......then yours too!

Sorry, this isn't said in a revenge tone, but as an evidence.

We can see now that the way things are aranged in this global world, a crisis is to come sooner or later...............and nobody will be safe.

Now the truth about Europe Central Bank is known: they did the worst job possible, but untill we voted NON, nobody cared.

At least THIS has to be reformed.

Then, what about a Democracy for Europe, you know.....when MP votes same as the people who elected them.

With this, there is no doubt the so called oppositions between Europe's citizens could be alleviated. and instead of allowing money to get lifted in tax free paradise, why not invest it in usefull enterprises HERE......

For sure it isn't what the media are repeating (who's paying them after all?).

They allways insist on the countradiction between UK and France citizens.......................and never spoke of the UK MPs and Union Delegates who came here during this campaign to support our NON (with the same arguments we had).

I guess if a referendum was held in UK people will discover we have more in common than TV is saying everyday.

BenThere
3rd Jun 2005, 22:14
Granpa,

My world is not falling apart, it is growing. Growing because capital does not flee the American economy, but seeks it.

Because we can layoff workers, we are willing to hire them. Because we can change the way we apply capital, we can adapt to a changing world. Because we reward risk, we have risk-takers.

Your unemployment is 10% and rising. Your economy does not grow. Your population is aging and you can't support the benefits you provide. You can't defend yourself. Your leadership is inept. The allies you haven't alienated are losing their grip on political power.

Maybe all this works for you. I like France, but I don't pretend to understand her.

tony draper
3rd Jun 2005, 22:19
I think the vast majority of European citizens would be happy to see the EU,going back to what was intended in the first place a "Common Market" including me incidently, thats what we in the UK were taken into thats what I voted to stay in,when we did eventually get a say, a Common Market,not a bleeding United States of Europe, seems to me it is only the Eu politicians fluffy Interlectuals and Eurocrats that have been pushing this, and have finaly pushed this US of E up to the point when the citizenry have told em to go piss up a rope.

Astrodome
3rd Jun 2005, 22:32
If my world falls apart.......then yours too! The only falling apart of the UK economy will come from the mismanagement of our latest Labour Government.

Many months ago I, amongst many others, who got seriously criticised by the Europhiles for suggesting the things which you now so readily admit are true.

Simply breathtaking that these same people are now nowhere to be seen on here.

Still I suppose that there is nothing like a shattered fantasy to bring stark reality into sharp focus.

airship
4th Jun 2005, 11:52
Oh cruns! Regarding my previous post... But that's also the place where visitors have to ditch all fresh and frozen foods not of NZ origin before accosting. Or risk having them confiscated and taken home (whoops, I mean't destroyed) by the NZ agricultural authorities. Well, I have to admit that the last time I entered NZ was by sea back in the mid '80s so I might not be completely up to date on the current practices regarding food imports. A quick visit to today's NZ MAF website leaves me little doubt that it would still be unwise to risk bringing in anymore than say, a few cans of corned beef. Unless anyone knows where one can get a hold of EU Origin "shelf-stable" ovenready leg of lamb...?! ;)

I suppose one could always try a work-around using a diplomatic bag, but that wouldn't be kosher... would it?! :O

Capt.KAOS
4th Jun 2005, 11:58
The Euro can only be a succes if it's based on a united European political system. In fact, the introduction of the Euro was based on the idea that Europe will be united not only economically but also political. Seems that idea can be put on ice for a (long) while after the 2 referenda. Italia is now badly missing it's own Lira to face the current recession.

Some idealogic ideas have been shattered the last coupla weeks and back to the Guilder?

BenThere
4th Jun 2005, 12:57
It's a pity a better constitution wasn't framed to put to the voters. One that simply states the rights of man and limits government's reach.

What was offered was an encyclopedic and bureaucratic anchor incorporating some questionable ideology and politically correct platitudes. I admit I could only suffer to read about 10 % of it.

The EU does, I think, have a role to play. But that role shouldn't be to force the more dynamic quarters of Europe to adopt the failing model of France, Germany, and Belgium.

Part of me wants to gloat at the denouement of Chirac and Shroeder for their gratuitous anti-American actions of the past, but that is the less admirable side of my nature. What I really want is for Europe to step up and support the values that have made our civilization great - freedom, human rights, rule of law, democracy and opposition to tyranny.

CUNIM
4th Jun 2005, 13:09
Do you mean Liberte, egalite et fraternite?

Didn't forget the accents but I had a CBA moment (Couldn't Be A**sed.

Capt.KAOS
4th Jun 2005, 15:15
Re my remark about the Italian Lira, just reading this article:

"The cause of European unification yesterday suffered another swingeing blow when one of the parties in Silvio Berlusconi's governing coalition threw its weight behind a campaign to pull Italy out of the euro."

LINK (http://www.guardian.co.uk/italy/story/0,12576,1499165,00.html)

BenThere, US and Europe used to be on good terms, until the Bush goverment came and decided to split it in Old and New Europe and ditch the old timers...

airship
4th Jun 2005, 15:39
Echoing BenThere's thoughts, I too might have preferred something altogether different and simpler for a European Constitution, akin to the USA's own Constitution (and amendments) from over 200 years ago.

Except for a few simple but crucial points:

1) The EEC was not founded, nor acceded to on the basis that it would one day automatically evolve into the United States of Europe. At some stage, the EEC became known as the EU which should have raised everyone's suspicions of the ulterior intentions of our European 'crats. (Unfortunetly, I have to include our popularly-elected MEPs who very graciously choose more efficient and cost-effective means of transport and accommodation, ensuring that only the best available causes pocket the difference). Unknowingly, the process was camouflaged by the rapid introduction of the CE mark, which Europeans understood to continue to signify the European Community but in fact only mean't that stuff was made to Conformité Européenne standards.

2) If the objective of the EU member States had simply been the amalgamation of previous European treaties into a single, clearer and more homogenous new treaty, then it should have simply been named after the city in which it was conceived, just like all the other previous treaties...

3) Even if Europeans had been swayed into a gentle torpor by certain of their governments into the quasi-acceptance of an ever-growing centralised-European dimension to their lives recently, there are quite a few reasons why a European Constitution could never resemble that of the USA's:

One is that just about all of Europe's inhabitants from the past 500 years or so are still very much in evidence and are accountable to - that may not be for want of effort on some past European governments' efforts but there we are.

Secondly, most if not all of the values that enshrine the US Constitution have been implemented if not exactly continuously upheld here in Europe for much longer than there was a USA. That these values may have been unwritten is not to say that they did not exist. Europeans have also had a far longer period than 200 years in which to write laws. So one cannot simply start off with a blank whiteboard as it were.

Thirdly, everything that is written is not necessarily what comes to pass in reality. I don't believe it was ever the case that coloured people had to use special lavatories anywhere in Europe, even in the southern parts. They might have been shipped off to concentration camps, but they were never told to sit at the back of the bus.

It would be nice if we could concentrate on what the EU means for Europeans, whether it should be considered a panacea for all of the world's ills or even just Europe's?! Instead of having to argue about whether or not Europe should become the 51st US State...

As far as Germany being a failing model representing the Jurassic parts of Europe together with France and Belgium, "who shouldn't hold behind the more dynamic parts of Europe" is concerned: Germany is second only to the USA in global trading of goods and services. And guess what, backward old-Europe Germany exports more in absolute $ terms than even the good ole USA?!

Next, I want to talk about the Euro and free movement of capital, but I'm feeling a little drained right now...hasta mañana :ok:

Grandpa
5th Jun 2005, 10:37
Your last words could lead to a new Europe Constitution that could be approved by an over whelming majority!

My hopes are this goal will be reached from people action and not from bureaucrat, lobbyist and disgraced politician.

Davaar
5th Jun 2005, 17:03
The Voice of the People has spoken in France and The Netherlands, but not so loudly elsewhere. It seems likely that the Brits will not be asked for their view after the latest debacle, and there never were plans to ask the Germans.

That last nugget is interesting. I hear from Germany that Das Bild ran an unofficial vote.

Results?

92% for Nein!

Can anyone confirm this?

Grandpa
6th Jun 2005, 07:06
Asked about what would have happened here if the OUI had won in french vote on May 29th, a journalist Helen Jouan replied:

"The day after President Jacques Chirac would have appeared on TV screens and affirmed he would respect the citizens's decision.

Prime Minister Raffarin would have resigned.

Dominique de Vilepin would have been appointed Prime Minister and confirm his first task will be to reduce unemployment.

Nicolas Sarkozy would have entered Vilepin government.

François Hollande - Socialist leader - would have had Laurent Fabius -Second in ranks who supported the NON -expelled from his job.

So, our leaders would have done exactly the same thing whatever our votes.....

French will have to say NON louder and louder to make sure the ruling class hears them."

Capt.KAOS
6th Jun 2005, 08:33
Can anyone confirm this? I belief this refers to a poll in the Bild Zeitung. The question was about whether the EU was moving to fast on which more than 90% responded with yes.

I talked to many Germans and Austrians after the Dutch/French vote and most agreed with the outcome. They told me if a referendum was held it would have been Nein all the same. But of course, it was ratified by the politicians in a "Nacht und Nebel" vote.

Grandpa
7th Jun 2005, 06:43
NON and NEE won allready in two European countries.
For fear of a strong NO Tony Bliar is withdrawing intended referendum in UK ( last poll is showing a 73% NO intention.........among which a lot of Left-NO on the same basis as their counterpart in Netherland and France.

The facts is that nationalist opposed to the very idea of Europe CAN'T unite, while the Europhiles opposed to this Constitution and asking for a better Europe CAN