View Full Version : North/South divide

24th May 2005, 07:42
There yer go yer Southern softies we've been vindicated (http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-13354961,00.html)...it's better up here than dahn in the smoke.
Also a guide (http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-13354962,00.html) to other places in this lovely island.:ok:

24th May 2005, 07:48
Leeds, the Knightsbridge of the north?????

Hahahahahaahahaaheheheheheh! :rolleyes:

24th May 2005, 07:54
Leeds...Knightsbridge of the ......hhheeeeehhhaaaaa
Stop it ! !...I'm laughing so much I'm almost crying....

I've said it before... The only thing that the Romans got wrong.... Hadrians wall....

Too far north....

Should have built it between St Johns Wood and Bath.... or since they closed down the Rossetti Bar you can forget St Johns Wood....north end of Regents Park to Bath...

24th May 2005, 07:58
So Lonely Planet says that the North-South divide is a thing of the past. How come then, that when Sky News gives a list of places to visit it mentions four in the South of England, two in the North, two in Scotland and only one in Wales?

Does this reflect the Lonely Planet, or is it Sky News showing a Metropolitain bias.

Plus ca change...

tony draper
24th May 2005, 08:07
One misses the pit heaps cobbled streets the ice cream man in his horse and cart, the place has no character now every town center looks the same,and whats worse the southeners will be looking to come up here to live, they will ruin the place and turn all our young chaps into sissies like themselves with their southern ways.

Krystal n chips
24th May 2005, 08:12
Leeds ?????? Hmmmmm !!!! the perfect place for Jerricho to be exiled to :ok:

tony draper
24th May 2005, 08:23
Leeds is not bad, if yer want to see bad visit Bradford.

24th May 2005, 08:26
London can feel "dirty, polluted and overcrowded",

Probably because it is.

24th May 2005, 09:02
Nothing wrong with the shopping areas of Leeds, probably what the guide is comparing. But then, I speak having been there.

Krystal n chips
24th May 2005, 09:10
Aberdeen has some good street theatre as well---was there on the last B/ Hol Monday---and, along with a few hundred others, was "entertained" by a lovers tiff--sort of. The key words in this 30mins saga were "do it here, do it right f$$king now"--followed by "I am on my knees begging you"--then a repeat of the above--plus the sound of head meeting granite at one point--and little moments of tranquil bliss as well. The lovers in question were two gentlemen--one imploring the other to throw him over the bridge on Union Street onto either the railway / A90 --take your pick---below---large crowd watching and at one point he was actually over the parapet--after which they sort of kissed and made up--and strolled off into the night. Different I suppose.

24th May 2005, 09:55
As someone who grew up half in London and half in Yorkshire I think I am entitled to comment both the north and the south.

If your idea of a good thing is dry stone walls, people who speak something that occasionally resembles English and MMFM then the north is for you. If you like to be surrounded by people who have to change hands every time they reach a hundred and who don't actually speak English at all then darn sarf is where you should be.

A wise person once said "no gentleman lives north of Watford and all foreigners start at Calais" (not quite what he actually said but I don't want to start a riot)

I love London and I love York (jury is still out on Leeds........ah no, it aint) but these days I love Sydney better - at least here the beer is not hot and the weather is not cold.

(covers head and other soft parts and waits for slagging to commence)


24th May 2005, 09:58
Aberdeen is like most Scottish urban centres that are not called Glasgow or Edinburgh, in that as soon as 5pm arrives their centres die.

That is my experience anyway!

24th May 2005, 10:16
"Leeds is the knightsbridge of the north"

I've never been to knightsbridge, but it's good to know where to avoid if I have to move to London.

Still, if I ever develop a drugs habit I will know where to go.

If you think Bradford is bad, visit wakefield/Normanton/castleford/pontefract

And before anybody makes any assumptions about my place of birth....

In my mams front bedroom in wakefield in Yorkshire.

24th May 2005, 10:20
Knightsbridge is a dump, a wasteland of chelsea tractors & vacuous bag collectors. It has an egyptian shopkeeper & **** all else. As for Leeds...

24th May 2005, 10:26
as someone from Manchester, Leeds hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
please....oxygen...can't breath for laughing.....

as for London being dirty, polluted, etc, etc, I would say yep right on the money.

Manchester is fantastic!

24th May 2005, 10:26
All this north v south is a bit like all the women are from venus and men are from a small planet somewhere in the vicinity of Betelgeuse cobblers we hear from time to time.

I'm a Yorkshireman. Mrs Balix is from Essex. We live in Scotland. There are good aspects about southern England, northern England AND Scotland. There are bad aspects about all three as well. Which you prefer is purely subjective. I'll go for Northern England out of those three as that is where I was brung up and we tend to look through rose tinted spectacles at the places we grew up in. However, I could quite happily live in the South of England when the time comes to leave Ayrshire...

24th May 2005, 10:52
ORAC has had, as his profile says, a peripatetic life.

Born in London, schooled in Ireland, then joined the RAF. Lived 5 years in Norfolk, 5 in Northumberland, 7 in Scotland (5 in near Peterhead, 2 at Leuchars/St Andrews), 3 in Yorkshire (Staxton Wold living in a cottage on Flamborough Head and 2 in Oxfordshire. (Not mentioning the overseas locations).

Got to say I loved the coastline and hills of the borders and could live there easily. I also loved the Norfolk broads and St Andrews and Edinburgh are great. My present home (when I can get there :( ) is near Stansted and London is great for visits.

But the only good view of Aberdeenshire is in the rear view mirror.........

tony draper
24th May 2005, 11:12
Harrogate is a posh place,yer can always tell, posh places, they have more antique shops than places to buy a bacon sarnie.
Patrolled all those places in the course of one duties Mr Yorks.
One hated Keithley though,would get six jobs for little places south side of the M62 then alway one feckin call in Keithley,bloody miles out the way it was.

Richard Taylor
24th May 2005, 16:09
Just as weel Aiberdeen's nae in Aiberdeenshire then! ;)

Think most Aiberdonians wid say the same about Peterheed/the Broch etc...

24th May 2005, 21:03
Nowt wrong wi Leeds.
Lived more of my life down south.
Cannot abide London.
Detest Manchester and Sheffield.

25th May 2005, 01:47
I kind of like the south, especialy the west of the south. Although winter is coming on , its a lovely day today.:= := :E

25th May 2005, 02:56
Call that south??? 41S is proper south, so it is......

25th May 2005, 03:07
Leeds is in the North? Good gracious me, NO.

My mother has a brother, William. Good old Uncle Bill's name is never mentioned in the family pile these days. He became persona non grata after slinging his hook and moving down south to Leeds

The Blacksheep himself is, of course, not only never mentioned, but has been entirely erased from the family history as though he had never been born...

25th May 2005, 03:42
So, Orac an ex-fighter controller eh? Since when was the opinion of a scope dope worth anything!!

Back into yer hole young man!

25th May 2005, 04:13
41 south??? thats not some where, thats the end of the world, or Tasmania.:E :E

25th May 2005, 07:27
Allan:ok: :)

Funny ol thing, was born & bred just outside Doncaster but I've never been to Leeds.

Just thinking about it, I've been to Chile more than Leeds. And to Moscow more than Manchester.

25th May 2005, 07:52
A recent guide to the best naturist beaches showed that none of them were up here......
Guide's top five naturist beaches
Studland Beach, Dorset
Morfa Dyffryn, Gwynedd, Wales
Slapton, Devon
Holkham, Norfolk
Pednevounder beach, Cornwall

When posted down at the gunnery school at Lulworth always were told that Studland was a place for yer perves and pooofters.Don't get them on yer beach at Blackpool.:ok:

tony draper
25th May 2005, 07:54
Well as someone who was obliged to visit both Leeds and Doncaster on a regular basis , one advises Doncaster folks not to throw verbal stones Leedswards
Someone let me tyres down in Doncaster,so when one takes over this country Doncaster can expect a 100 killoton one, one is not a forgiving type person.

Loose rivets
25th May 2005, 08:08
One and oneess, will be traveling from Edinburg to Edinburgh this summer.

Now that's gonna be confusing...only just learnt to leave the h' orf.

25th May 2005, 09:58
Doncaster can expect a 100 killoton one

That'd cause about 50 bob's worth of damage Mr D.:)

PS Can yer keep one for Crawley please?:suspect:

flaps to 60
25th May 2005, 10:03
What was that phrase in the legendary Lock Stock and Two Smoking Barrels by the hardest man in the land.......ah yes "Phucking Northern Monkies". Well put Guvonor.

Actually i have to be careful as im up Norf at the moment and generally people are friendlier than us Soft Southern Cream Puffs.

29th May 2005, 03:35
50 bob's worth Gainsey? Balby and Hexthorpe combined might make 25 bob's worth but the rest of it won't make up the difference.

Anyway, what is it about Donny that changed it from being a solid Tory seat in the 50's (Anthony Barber) to the Communist Republic of South Yorkshire that it is today?

The Desert Ferret
29th May 2005, 21:37
Doncaster has always had a 50 kiloton weapon pointing at it courtesy of nearby Finningley and the well armed heavy metal that once resided there.

I spent the first 18 years of my life trying to survive in West Leeds during grim times - after much intellectual endeavour I finally crafted a good sales pitch for my homeland:

"West Leeds, its not as bad as East Leeds"

Still a cracking place though.

30th May 2005, 03:51
Finningley was the target not Donny (at least while they had the tin triangle). All Donny could expect was a quick increase in temperature and the soot blown off a few tall buildings. Mind you, most of the inhabitants would probably have thought that summer had come early and have stripped off to their vests for a quick taste of Cleethorpes on a sunny day:ok:

30th May 2005, 08:16
A 50 KT on Finningley would not include Doncaster into the 'glass circle' certainly, but it would blow away much more than the soot, I fear.

I quite liked Doncaster in the old days. You were guaranteed a score in the Mecca. Admittedly, the average RAF erk wasn't too particular about what he pulled in those days before the "Military Salary" was introduced, but on a Saturday night a dead cert is a dead cert when all's said and done. :ok:

Nottingham was always overrated. :bored:

30th May 2005, 09:17
Anything north of the M4 is definite 'Dodgyland' peopled by absurd accents. In a tight space you have Brum, Geordie and Scouser. Makes me want to run! It's bad enough down here, you only have to go the other side of Southampton for it to start. The real 'England' seems to be getting smaller and smaller- there are still outposts of hope north of the M4, but they are all surrounded-Oxfordshire, Cambridge- the rest is Injun territory.

I don't understand it- in this age of national television/radio, it seems that regional accents are getting more pronounced and worse than ever. Look what has happened to Essex and its Estuary English!

30th May 2005, 11:15
I've lived in both London and Manchester for 15 years each. I would, in complete honesty, rather die than live back down south. I still have difficulty understanding the level of aggresiveness, xenephobia and just general plain nastiness that i find down there. And as for accents, don't make me laugh, southerners sound absurd, especially the mockneys and the glass breaking high pitched squealy women.
Anyway must be off, popping to the Beautiful lake district for Lunch.:ok:

30th May 2005, 14:48
Some cracking generalisations on this thread... that's what Jet Blast is all about I s'pose! :D

Frankly, you can go into two different PUBS in Manchester, Leeds, London, Southampton etc, and get two completely different vibes, within the same town. Good people and bad people in every city, etc, etc, you know the score.

IMO, I have found northern cities generally to be more welcoming, in that a higher proportion of people seem to have time for you and be willing to talk/help etc, etc.

But I love living down south and the kind of person I am, I tend to look for the good things in people and places, so I can go virtually anywhere and enjoy what it has to offer...

Anyway, apologies if that answer was too boring. :p

The Desert Ferret
30th May 2005, 14:59
I'm with you on your rationale ForestFlyer but be warned - I once floated a moderate and positive opinion on JetBlast once and got a severe pummelling for not, erm, giving other people a severe pummelling.

Anyhow - are folk in the south more nationalistic than we provincials? I sometimes get that vibe though I can't make sense of it - for example - folk back home (Yorkshire) don't seem to have any problems with Welsh folk (apart from crude gags) whereas my current neighbours (I live in Surrey - sorry Grandad) can spend an entire evening in a pub slandering the Welsh.

Though I've got to admit - we can do without Charlotte Church.

30th May 2005, 15:02
No, they spend all their time slandering southerners instead..... ;)

The Desert Ferret
30th May 2005, 15:07
LOL - you might have a point there ORAC.

When I was immediately post-pubescent firing them down on the strip I xenopohbically snarled away at anything foreign (particularly southerners) before rounding the night off at an Indian restaurant. Erm....

I eventually grew out of and my teenage insecure angst and moderated my opinions when I finally actually met some southerners and discovered they didn't all attend public school, wore tweed, drove range rovers and shot peasants for sport.

cessna l plate
30th May 2005, 20:00
Manchester is "one of Britain's most exciting and interesting cities",

Dont make me laugh. The city centre is nothing short of a building site, and the airport isn't a million miles behind it either.

I formed my views on Manchester City Centre in the early 90 whilst serving with Greater Manchester Police. A secondment to the City Centre for Christmas made me realise that it is nothing more than a huge melting pot for the scum for 30 miles about.

Have a night out in Manchester? Would sooner place my geitalia in close proxinity to a bacon slicer! My wife cannot fathom how I can drive through London, Newcastle, in fact most major UK cities no prolem, but haven't got a cluse about Manchester. Thats because I only go near the place when I have to, and not after dark.

I am sure that these accusations could be levelled at any UK city, but for me Manchester is a cess pit to end all cess pits.

30th May 2005, 20:39
We used to have to day stop in Manchester....:yuk:
On one of our first stops we went into the 'center' by train..:{
Walked from the station..the entire length of the main street looking for a restaurant...NOT ONE ! ....any of the side roads we tried petered out within 50 mtrs into a derelict wharehouse environment.... came across a huge shopping mall called the Arndale center...modelled on a tiled Victorian Public Loo.....walked all the way back to the station in despair....finally walked into the Avis car rental office (thinking that anyone working at Avis might have some idea on what was available locally.. ) spoke to a 17 year old retard who suggested a burgher bar...

That was the center of the worst city in the UK... AND THEY HAD THE BLOODY NERVE TO TRY FOR THE OLYMPICS... :} :rolleyes: :{ :*

The Desert Ferret
30th May 2005, 21:44
I'm sure Manchester was a shocking place in the 1990s though to be fair to it (and Liverpool, Leeds) things have picked up a lot in the centres. The scum are still there - but mercifully less obviously so in the central areas.

Its worth going back Cessna l Plates - you might find (as I do in Leeds) that alleys once upon a time no-go areas are now festooned with tables and (fools) braving force nine gales drinking expensive coffee as if on the Rialto.

You used to know where you were in the old days - the demarcation line between scum and yuppies has become rather blurry.

Krystal n chips
31st May 2005, 08:33
Some "interesting" perceptions of Manchester here it seems. The City has been desribed as a "building site"--true--up to a point--but how else can you regenerate pray tell ?.

Poorwanderingwun. Sorry, but you really didn't show much initiative here did you ?. OK, if you walk down London Road and into Market Street, and turn right, you will still encounter the warehouse's etc. And yes, the Arndale is / was an eyesore----however, at the end of Market Street is Exchange Square, The Royal Exchange and, if you had bought a map for example and turned left off Market St, you may well have discovered St. Annes Square, Chinatown, the Gay Village--and numerous eateries as a result--and Manchester City centre is compact enough to walk round comfortably without getting lost---next time you visit, try these suggestions--and I think you will find you can enjoy a very pleasant meal--any time of the day.

Cessna l plate---your perceptions are true--up to a point. I agree that in the 80's and 90's the centre was a wasteland at night--by the same token GMP were still suffering the legacy of Sunny Jim, who felt we should all be in bed for 2200 wearing a horse-hair shirt :mad: --times, and GMP, have changed for the better and I think you will find the centre is now very well Policed. Credit where it is due here. Having said that, I wouldn't suggest driving down Oxford Street or Deansgate at 0200 on a Sunday morning is a good idea--and the experience dispels the Manchester City Council "myth" that the City is "family orientated--to put it mildly.
Now at one point, we wouldn't go to the theatre / for a meal in Manchester at night--but we do now. However, you still pick your routes in and out of course.

Overall, I feel safe in Manchester centre now--but only in the centre--I wouldn't dream of driving up Rochdale Rd at night or going anywhere near North / East Manchester at night either.

The City has changed--considerably--over the last 10 years and continues to do so----unlike Liverpool for example which is still a good place to avoid at night--despite all the hype about the city of culture and rejuvenation.

31st May 2005, 08:52
Well .... there we go... I lack initiative....

I'm in the center of Englands 2nd largest city and I'm supposed to buy a map to find a restaurant....


On a later trip we did discover the China town area... quite picturesque but hardly what one would consider the pinnacle of international cuisine... As for 'discovering' the Gay village...oh please ...:yuk:

Krystal n chips
31st May 2005, 09:00
So rent a car, drive into the Cheshire suburbs--like Wilmslow, Hale, Altrincham etc---and even the most jaded international cuisine palates can be satisfied----for a price of course.

Er, you don't have to change your sexual orientation to eat in and around the Gay Village area btw. :rolleyes:

And then there is "Curry Alley" in Rusholme---.

The Desert Ferret
31st May 2005, 12:07
Against all odds I may have to step in and defend Liverpool - whatever you think of the city of culture the rejuvination is actually happening. Believe it or not unemployment has fallen to 5%.

Who'd have believed that 15 years ago?

Cue deluge of witty and original theiving scouser one-liners.....

There is even evidence that Newcastle is getting its act togther - there are a fair few cranes dotting the horizon up there now.

Bradford still anchored in the doldrums - the once proud city still feels like a dying one.

31st May 2005, 12:12
there are a fair few cranes dotting the horizon up there now

A lot less than there used to be, eh Mr Draper......

31st May 2005, 12:14
Anyone in doubt re North V South need only read the last few posts...


31st May 2005, 12:21
North/south divide? Unbelievable! The north and south are separated by a few measly hundred miles. Any differences are self-made.

I'd like to suggest moving to Australia and finding out that it's possible to live two thousand miles away from fellow aussies and talk and think exactly the same, but I don't think we really want your petty jealousies over here. The lack of them is what makes our country better. :rolleyes:

The Desert Ferret
31st May 2005, 12:24
I think I'm at fault for the digression into city vs city debate. Sorry about that.

However, any inter-city debate doesn't prove or disprove the question that started this thread so I can't quite see what your QED is poorwanderinwun - isn't that a bit of a non-sequiter?

Anyhow - I'm sure theres plenty of punters out there who want to have a poke at the urban fabric of the south.

Any policeman out there who used to walk the beat in Barking, Walthamstow, Tower Hamlets, Romford, Ilford etc?

Anybody our there wish to defend the perennial 'least desirable places to live' winners of Basingstoke, Bracknell, Slough, Milton Keynes etc?

The Desert Ferret
31st May 2005, 12:44
PS: I forgot to mention Peckham - deary me. Heaven help them.

tony draper
31st May 2005, 12:47
Mosside was rough place in the sixties, one first experienced of racism occured there, one was thrown out of a drinking club for being a white man.

31st May 2005, 13:01
Nearly every country I go to has a north side divide, I usually discover when I visit. You find it in Germany, Britain & Italy for starters & of course unwillingly, Ireland. :ugh: I'm sure alot more could be added to the list.

If they can't find anyone to 'hate' and slag off in their own country, people tend to look to their neighbouring country/s. I think its part of the human mentality & harks back to the tribal mentality of our ancestors, a way of trying to feel superior over the 'other lot' be it justified or not & identifying & coagulating with their own kind.

31st May 2005, 13:01
Although a true Lancashire man must admit that although Bradford is in the doldrums it does have some v good eateries.The Karachi tho basic,(think they actually have tablecloths now)is the best value and authentic Indian/Pakistani food.
Manchester Chinese restaurants are rated in the top of the country.
Also if any of you have been wathing Simon Rimmer's 'Grubs up' on ITV will see that we do have a very good selection of both local produce and restaurants.It makes a pleasant change from reading for instance AA Gill's reviews that never venture out of London.

tony draper
31st May 2005, 13:06
Quite true Omaha,although saying that we are definatly superior to folks from Sunderland, well I mean its almost impossible not to be init.

The Desert Ferret
31st May 2005, 13:09
I was thinking of Bradford in economic terms - you are quite right Lancastran man - it is still a place worth visting for the eateries, photo museums, Saltaire, converted mills etc. West side of it is classic green and grey Yorkshire.

However, you still feel you're looking at a ghost - the average terrace in Bradford is a splendid affair but it all looks and feel so run down and lifeless. Theres no heartbeat.

cessna l plate
31st May 2005, 18:23
Manchester is no better policed than it was in my time, although the advent of mass cctv means the lazy sods can get to a problem quicker. Still doesn't help if being stabbed in a side street though. You might notice that used the past tense when describing my service.

I agree that the regeneration has proceeded, proving wrong the old maxim that "you can't polish a turd". Yes Manchester is highly polished these days, but underneath all the facade lies the basic problem of the turd.

The whole city is a mish0mash of converted warehouses and gloomy corners. Where if you aren't a known face, all your problems will begin.

I am sure that there are some good nights out to be had in Manchester, but I for one don't fancy trying to find them. Chinatown, although pletiful of restraunts can offer nothing more than any local take-away. The curry mile is fascinating to look at, but I rarely eat there. Far too commercialised, and again, no different from the local curry house.

And why-oh-why do some cafe owners try to re-invent thier cafes as cosmopolitain venues al-la costa del whatever. Get back to planet earth you cretins, this is not the riviera, where the OAT is 25 degrees nil wind, this is Manchester, where its always raining, bloody filthy, and windy enough to make someone from Chicago feel right at home.

The place does have many good points, but for someone who grew up 8 miles away, I feel that the bad outweighs the good too much.

31st May 2005, 22:11
Very succint Mr Cessna, couldn't agree more. Trouble is I have just moved back to eight miles away and regretted it..... my appointment with the shrink is next week :{

1st Jun 2005, 01:48
Have just returned from Newcastle after a very pleasant weekend seeing some friends from uni who've stayed up there.

I challenge anyone to:

1. Walk across the Millenium Bridge and along the Quayside;
2. Eat at Treacle Moon, Fisherman's Lodge or Cafe 21;
3. Sip espresso sitting outside Intermezzo;
4. Shop for haute couture at Cruise and streetwear at Union;
5. Experience high culture at BALTIC or The Sage;
6. Experience low culture at Foundation or The Stage Door;
7. Sip cocktails at Tokyo, Stereo, Apartment, Living Room or the P&P and finally
8. Escape to the country for sunday lunch at the Angler's Arms at Weldon Bridge...

...and then talk about "it's grim up north."

As far as I'm concerned, you can eat, drink, shop, sleep and be entertained in Newcastle just as well as in London, for much less stress, much less hassle, much less trudging miles between places and for much less money.

There's even a Pret a Manger.

(PS - You can keep the Bigg Market though. It's horrible.)

1st Jun 2005, 02:46
Binos That was a joke - right?? As a committed citizen of the west (and looking at it through the eyes of a Brit) I am constantly annoyed/frustrated at the attitude of Eastern Staters towards the west. We definitely appear to be the 'poor backward country cousins' despite our riches and toil keeping the eastern states in the manner to which they have become accustomed.

I have lost count of the number of times I have been called at 0600 by some feckwit from the eastern states who either does not realise or does not care that there is a time difference.

Thank God for the Nullabor and the Great Sandy - stops most of you buggers from discovering our well kept secret!

North South divide - not here in Oz. It's an East West divide:}

1st Jun 2005, 10:35
Ah, the famous East-West divide. The difference, Allan, is that it exists only in the minds of you westerners. Anybody who claims a conspiracy based on the fact that you have to fit in with eastern time zones is the one with the problem!

Nobody I've met on this side of the country would ever give a moment's thought to westerners being different.

Well, almost. We certainly know not to invest in companies based in WA, because they're all run by crooks and cowboys, but apart from that......


Krystal n chips
1st Jun 2005, 16:32
Ah, the succinct response from Mr Cessna--erm sorry, but I too grew up about 10miles from the City Centre---and recall the dereliction around Knott Mill for example--then I left the area and returned a few years hence--and could not believe my eyes.

I also have a customer who requires that, once a month, I am in the City centre at an unholy hour and at a w/end. I can assure you the place is very well Policed---thankfully. As for eating, well non of my local Chinese / Asian establishments can offer the range in the locations mentioned. However, the obvious question is, if you don't go there or to the City, how do you know ?.

Give it a shot one night ( no pun intended ! ) you might even enjoy it :eek:

cessna l plate
1st Jun 2005, 19:47
Give it a shot one night ( no pun intended ! ) you might even enjoy it

And for that very reason I will avoid the place. Before joining the plod I socialised in Moss Side for a while, during which time I taught martial arts to the local kids. Things are much different now, and a lot more dangerous. Habitual knife carrying by 14 year olds was not the norm in those days, it would appear so now.

As for an experience of the place, Mrs L PLate works in the city, and just occasionally we have to socialise with clients, and this generally means the City Centre. We go for an average meal, get ripped off at paying time and come out into a world that has transformed itself from a horrible and grotesque shopping area into the cosmoplitain metropolis that exudes fun and party going (as long as you are either A "On the other bus" or B prepared to fight your way out) If I go there at all, I beat a hasty retreat as quick as possible.

About the only saving grace is down the student quarter where things appear to be more sedate, but It doesn't float my boat in any way.

Now however much I malign Manchester, I am sure that all major cities have similar problems, no-go areas, and back streets that look like a public toilet users convention, but I am sick of Manchester promoting itself world-wide as this fantastic place, when the reality is a lot different, and doing so at the local tax payers expense.

As I said earlier, yes re-generation has been effective, and has attracted new investment and so-on, but until the root cause of Manchesters problems is removed, namely the over the top number of scrotes that you can encounter there at any time of the day or night, but mainly at night, and especially on Giro day, then Manchester City Centre will remain a highly polished turd, and nothing more!