BA Crew Allowances in Willys Sights?

[VirginFSM]

Hi

Some guy over on anothern forum is saying that Willy Walsh is "cutting crew allowances right left and centre".

Is this true, whats happening? Cant see the unions having this.

Cheers

VirginFSM

[The Greaser]

Dont know how he can be doing it when he doesn't even take over til September!

[ozzy05]

:) Virgin, Mr Walsh is only 'shadowing' Mr rod at the moment so has no clout. However I have no doubt that we will have a fight on our hands when he does take over.

He has to drive down costs in order to prepare us for T5, and our employee costs are very high. We wait with nervous anticipation.

Of course he will not have encountered union power like ours before, we will simply not roll over and get shafted without a real fight when we feel he should look elswhere within Waterside first....................................................... .....................

[Anti-ice]

Indeed, in terms of productivity , all flying crew are worked to the max.........

I doubt this is mirrored in Waterside where all thats important is
'Macchiato is the new Latte' and
'Thursday is the new Friday' to many.......................

[apaddyinuk]

What has been noted is that he plans to first take the axe to Managerial positions in Waterside affecting up to 3500!!!! That will be a nice little bit of cost cutting. I doubt he will do much to the new contract crew as we are paid f-all as it is!
Having worked for him already I think there are other departments more at risk of Willie than the Cabin crew and flight crew!

[DarkStar]

As I'm led to believe, the way that WW will tackle the excess of CC allowances is rather subtle. New hotel contracts are being drawn up that will include Breakfast, Lunch and Dinner, thereby meaning Crew who slip in these 'new contract' hotels will not be able to claim the set allowances as 'BA have already paid for them'...... That will apply to all BA staff who stay at these hotels. The staff over in Waterside have been hit harder than most (...and to be honest, not before time) however, there is very little fat left in the HQ. Flight deck like myself will also have the 'new Contract hotac' to look forward to.... Where's that Draft ..... :)

[pips]

I have just done my oof day , and am sure they said that Willy Wonker was coming sooner than september. Could be wrong i was half asleep.

[Stirling]

Thank you Darkstar for pointing out that Waterside has already been hit harder than most, and that NO staff group within BA will be exempt from Mr Walsh and his axe...

I cannot, however, see a future without further cuts and renegotiating of contracts at Compass, Waterside, the Terminals and in the crew community. This may or may not have a detrimental effect to our business. I think we all need to wake up to this fact.

Now I'm off for a Latte at Compass.....

[redfred]

training ccourses drag on and on and im sure they cost the company a bomb, ive done 3 in 18 months totalling 18 weeks at cranebank...ive had 3 people on my course go for 3 other internal interviews whilst on our course which if succesful means they will be back at craners once this is over and that doesnt make sense.

[keeperboy]

I remember when Rod first arrived and everyone at compass were shaking in their boots. But not much happened!

I think cuts WILL be made and we all know where money could be saved. Saying that Willie Walsh gained his 'axe weilding' reputation from Aer Lingus, a VERY different beast to BA. He didn't need to be that clever at Aer Lingus to negotiate his new terms as the crews knew the company could go belly up at any given minute. As BA has offically became the 'World most profitable airline' I don't think the same threats will work at BA.

I don't reckon the meal in hotel thingly will work either. Firstly, he'd have to find hotels willing to open their restaurants to provide us with 3 course meals at the obscure hours we arrive and depart. And what restaurant would a crew doing London to Moscow and back eat in?

What I did hear though is that he will try and be sneaky and offer crew on the new contract a higher basic salary in order to try and 'scrap' the expensive old contracts as a majority vote by people on the new contract would ratify it. Don't know if that could happen tho...

I think it will have to be a case of NEGOTIATION if WW wants to get anywhere in BA.

[flybywire]

He might want to change CC allowances and bring them in line with EF LGW or something similar.
At the end of the day, on a Moscow there&back (and on all other flights) crews are provided with meals on board, no need of a restaurant. Crews could be paid hourly and meals provided by BA.
NOT that this is a good solution, I agree, but it's something I am sure he will look at.

He might make EF LGW a low-cost fleet (operations are already low-cost here, from crews to aircraft operations) eliminate club on certain routes and have a pay-bar on most flights.:(

These are just rumours that are going around at the moment, don't know myself if that is what is going to happen.

[flyer55]

Willie Walsh could do a number of things and Waterside will mainly be affected. For LGW who knows as it is going to change in the near future with Eurofleet LGW crew taking over the Longhaul flying as EF LGW have a lower cost base but do offer the same product as LHR even though up easyjet.
Wait and see...

[keeperboy]

To change us to an hourly rate or any other method of allowences our contracts would have to be changed which we would have to agree to.

Saying that, if the hourly rate offered was decent I wouldn't complain.....

[traveller5]

keeperboy - what planet are you on? Life is rosy and nothing will change. Keep dreaming! The next major change at BA is already slowly being implemented ie LGW 737/777 fleet for Cabin crews which will see an important change for all concerned. LHR EF barely breaks even and employee costs across the airline are sky high, notably within Cabin Services. The new crew card is being introduced for a reason matie.....A lot is already subtly changing, agreement or not.

PS. BA has announced huge profits, but decided not to announce their humungous pension deficit - which will eat away at an important % of profits.

[keeperboy]

traveller 5 you need to read my post again......the bit where I say "I think cuts WILL be made". We all know there will be cuts. But life will continue to be a hell of a lot rosier at LHR than LGW because LHR is where the money is being made.

Good point, LHR shorthaul barely breaks even on it's own. But when around 60% of passengers on those short haul flights are transiting to BA longhaul flights where do you think LHR longhaul would be without it?

Also, you have to look at how the fares are distributed. For example, if someone buys a Milan-JFK ticket via LHR the entire ticket value is off set to the longhaul profit centre even though that passenger would have to use a short-haul flight Milan-London-Milan.

What is happening at LGW or with crewcard has no bearing on what will happen with our conditions at LHR. LGW only has two aircraft types so it makes sense for everyone to be on both. At LHR we have 5 types.

[DarkStar]

Was chatting to some CC whilst nightstopping EWR and the CSD was convinced that LHR SH would be turned into a Lo-co if BMI's Lo-Co plan was actually put into place out of LHR. Pay bars and pay for meals are already being sounded out, as are certain 'all cattle class' into Europe!! I can't really see whats left to strip out of Waterside, I went to the dentist and I didn't see that many people having coffee, although it was after 16.00! No, the cuts sadly will be with the CC and us. The big target I'm sure will be sickness, I was told that with the May Bank Holiday CC Scheduling have to ramp up STBY crew simply due to a huge spike in casual sickness ....unless the weather is bad! Remember, you're dumping on your colleagues and one day that STBY crew could be you! :E

[Flying_Sarah747]

Yes, but we chose to join BA over the guys in orange because we knew the conditions were very good there. We wanted lots of night stops, we wanted to be paid well for what we did. Why do people always have a go at us for that? Everybody in any job or at any airline want to get as much as they possibly can! We've got used to the money we're paid and used to the life style it enables us to live. If Willy changes our conditions too much I would think he will loose a lot of crew.

[keeperboy]

The guy doesn't even start til September so let's wait and see. One thing for sure though, he ain't gonna want any industrial action at lhr on his hands.

My lodger who is on LHR SH flew with one of the BASSA guys yesterday and apparently it is being negotiated for the eurofleet cabin crew to take over all the 767 long haul flying. Guess that could save BA some dosh! And the crew are welcome to TLV ann ACC! :p

[sevenforeseven]

Keeperboy, go take your apron off, go out take deep breaths of fresh air. What makes you and your bunch of sky maids in need of a three course meal.
Get a life!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You and your bunch of skymaids have been paid far too much for far too long.
Adios.

[keeperboy]

Sevenforeseven...Cheers for the offer of going out to take some breaths of fresh air, but im paid enough by BA to hire someone else to do it for me. :p

[marlowe]

If you want to know about how the future terms and conditions might look at BA ,look no further than BA Citiexpress this will give you all a clue!!!!

[traveller5]

Keeperboy - I seem to keep having a go (nothing personal) but I must say your comment about SH crew being welcome to TLV and ACC is again naive. The 767 dusked a/c could do a whole array of LH routes......

At the end of the day people do knock BA crews, but the crews are only defensive because they know change is inevitable. The BOAC days are gone. I know for a fact what is on the cards (cannot reveal my source..yet) and the top issues are 1. Crew allowances (hotels are to provide meals which will do away with allowances), 2. CSD role (A321 CSDs being taken off was a trial) and 3. Worldwide crew agreements (disruption policy in particular).

[flyer55]

Lets all wait and see what Willie Walsh will do but one thing is for certain he is going after Waterside and other parts of the operation will be targeted so lets watch this space. Am not suprised that maybe Eurofleet Crew at LHR take over the 767 flying altogether , but the mixed flying will happen.

[cartexchange]

I normally don't get involved in other airline forums but I happen to be going past this one.
Anyway why is it that the low cost start up crew are always having a go at the established ones! I will tell you why, jealousy, and of course they applied for BA and just did not cut the mark! very petty indeed! they sit there and hope that BA conditions fall, this is nonsense, if BA conditions fall the so do the low cost carriers,
to the BA crew I'm with QF long haul, and we have the same problems, except they have taken the knife to us big time! we have these housing commission airline staff attacking us at all angles.

Who knows what willy will do, but if you all stick together he cant do anything.

Always remember they are jealous, they tried to get in, and they never made it, so in their rage and anger they take it out on existing crew,

Keeperboy, love the comments,,

Management love seeing the fighting among us, playing into their hands.

To all BA staff, I hope your conditions get better, as it will only improve mine in the long run.

[Stirling]

I dont understand...

BA crew are, in general and agreed to by a majority of posters on here, very well renumerated for what they do. As has been stated, a large proportion of crews from other airlines would probably jump at the chance to work under the same terms and conditions, and I'm guessing a large proportion would like to work for the company.

What I've never understood is, why all the vitriol towards those at Waterside and Compass? Have those that express this resentment spent any quality time working at either, and seeing how hard certain areas are being pushed? Has anyone recently witnessed the continued lack of investment in ALL areas (staff and systems) at both and the associated affects?

Headcount reductions have happened and will continue to happen at both, alongside workload increasing. This I believe needed to happen, but it has got to 'blood out of a stone' proportions. I am sick and tired of hearing the 'Latte' culture in Waterside levelled at my colleagues. Do we not deserve the occasional break? There are coffee areas at Compass and these are continually filled with crew - I will make it absolutely clear that I have no issues with this, but please stop the hypocrisy.

Some comments on here beggar belief. This company is completely divided and the in-fighting only happens when a lack of appreciation of what other departments contribute is failed to be realised.

I sincerely hope that WW does not erode your terms and conditions, as these have obviously been agreed to for your benefit, and this is what you have agreed to and expected when joining. If, however, these end up in his sights, be prepared to have the courage of your convictions, but dont forget the bigger picture and possible repercussions of your actions.

[keeperboy]

traveller5 you must be very well connected indeed! Especially considering Willie isn't even in charge yet, hasn't been in the airline for five minutes and despite all the other things he has to get a grasp of, he already knows the workings of cabin crew allowences and how he is going to change them. He may be the CEO but he still has the board to answer to as well.

Maybe you can use your connections to answer the following questions for us?

1). Firstly, what does he plan on doing about the small consequence of our contracts? If you read our Industrial Agreement (Allowences) it doesn't mention anything about being provided meals. It says we will be provided with an allowence equivalent to the cost of a meal in the hotel in local currency. So that would be the first hurdle for him. He would need to change our contract (all 13,000 odd of us).

2). The 'meal in hotel' system seems to be based on the scenario that we spend all our duty in a hotel. What about when we are on the aircraft and our meal allowence times are triggered? Are you saying that shorthaul crew operating there-and-backs will get no allowences as they won't have access to a restaurant?

Changes are ineviatable and some will even be welcome. But everything is relative. Crew from loads of other airlines would LOVE to see us fall flat on our face and lose our conditions. BA is not going to adopt CitiExpress conditions overnight, because the operation is totally different and they would have to seek the agreement of the 13,000 cabin crew to change their contracts. But that does not mean that we are not open to negotiation . At the end of the day we all want BA to be a success and to still have our jobs in 10, 20 or 30 years time.

I can remember when I first came to BA from BMI. I thought it was like a holiday camp and would nearly fall over in fits of laughter when the crew that had been there for years would say how much harder BA was working them. They didn't believe me when I would tell them about the days we had at BMI. Since then, things have slowly got a little harder at BA (but i'm still loving it) and I think will continue to slowly get more harder still. But as our days at BA slowly get harder the days at the likes of bmi or virgin or citiexpress will get harder still.

[itsinthebag]

keeperboy - WELL DONE for being one of the few people on here to talk any sense! The pure venom these people spit at BA crew is UNBELIEVEABLY immature. And do I smell...........sour grapes?
If these people want to see us suffer with regard to our terms and conditions, then they obviously want their T&C's slashed - like you said - their days will get harder and harder. Don't bmi have 5 or 6 sector days now?

[sevenforeseven]

Keeperboy, sour grapes not a chance, but what you get for pushing around a trolly cannot and will not continue. I want BA to do well and what I say is fair pay for a fair job, if other attendants like you greedy people continue to demand the type of salaries than that will be the downfall of a great airline then again perhaps you want that.
No matter what your response is, and I shall not even bother looking on this forum again so say what you like, the end of your over the top salary is near, very near.
Goodbye.

[keeperboy]

sevenforeseven, I just know you aren't going to be able to resist a peek to see how this thread is continuing, so I will reply....

You are very right, some of the cabin crew at BA earn a bloody fortune and many of them don't even push the cart anymore for that! I guess because they joined BA when they were essentially a civil servant and their contracts have continued on.

I am on the 'new contract' (post '97). I do earn more than the average trolley dolly, but not loads more. Sort of what I would expect for working for the flag carrier, and the 'worlds most profitable airline'. I guess it is akin to what a crew member for Lufthansa earns versus their collegues at Air Berlin, or Iberia crew earn versus their collegues at Air Europe.

This isn't a situation unique to BA. I'm sure in the banking or insurance industries that there are some companies that pay more and offer better conditions than others.

I like BA. I like the way they treat me and I think they do pay me well. And in return I give back 110%. For the first time ever, I feel I work for an airline that I can actually give some loyalty to. I don't call in sick unless I am sick and whatever my mood on the day I get on the aircraft and give my all to BA's customers. And most of my collegues have that same mentality. Perhaps it is this 'give and take' mentality and the good conditions we enjoy that helped propel BA to the profit levels it has just achieved.

[Flying_Sarah747]

Well said Keeperboy...In the end, these people wish they were at BA, and I'm sure that if they apply and are successful in the future, they too will want the same conditions that we enjoy now...SO GET OVER YOUR JEALOUSY!!!!!!!!!!!! :cool:

[ChewyTheWookie]

sevenforeseven, I think you fail to realise that not all BA crew are on the old contract. I joined a year ago and after tax take home enough to live comfortably (rented flat, average car, 1 holiday a year). Any less and it wouldn't be worth doing the job. Why shouldn't I earn enough to at least enjoy myself occasionally? I'm not saying BA should be giving me enough for several houses and a new Jag every year but I do a full time job and that is what counts.

There is no way BA will get away with providing meals in a hotel and taking away all allowances. That would mean all new contract crew would be on less than £10k. Would you work full time for that?

sevenforeseven, what is your job? It might say in your profile but I haven't looked. Have you noticed how much some of the pilots get paid for simply "sitting in a flight deck". Slightly more than the cabin crew get paid for "pushing a trolley" isn't it...

[DarkStar]

Chewy - I'll reply on behalf of the 'front office' by simply saying if there is an uncontained engine failure or engine fire or severe weather you'd be very grateful that they are 'sitting there'. Most jobs have their mundane moments, yes, cruising hour upon hour can be dull...then again, people often say that when things start going wrong thats when we earn the money. How can you justify an old contract CC member earning more than a P2? Also, it takes years on training and continual checks to attain a CPL, whereas CC can be interviewed virtually off the street and trained in six weeks - just look at the CC forums about recruitment!!!

Keeperboy, I know many of your comments are made with slight tongue in cheek, but I think you'll find 'Traveller 5' is very well connected, so just a word of caution.

There is very little, if any, fat left in Waterside. Compass also has little to offer in the way of easy hits. The days of those 'painless cuts' are gone. It WILL be expenses, like it or not and that applies to me too.

WW has already done the rounds and his network are already deep within, so don't think things aren't already being reported back :}

[Carnage Matey!]

Now far be it from me to defend our cabin crew (who frankly are paid more than the going rate for less than the average productivity) I feel I have to point out that, despite his claims to be 'well connected', traveller5 does spout a load of tosh on these forums. A quick look at his previous postings reveals lots of questions about subjects that he wouldn't need to ask if he was as well connected as he claims. The idea that hotels will provide meals to crew is truly comical and could only be floated by someone who has no idea of crew schedules, slip durations or service levels at the hotels BA chooses for its crews.

[traveller5]

Carnage Matey - what is it you would like me to say?? What has a crew 24hr slip in MIA, 48hr slip in NRT or 24hr stop in SYD/MEL got to do with hotels providing "all inclusive" meals for crews? These hotels already provide 24hr room service - which, I might add, a large % of crews already take full advantage of at all hours! Furthermore, a good % of the network's hotels also provide a significant discount for meals taken by crews, which flight and cabin crews are quick to ask for!

The proposed system (whether you accept it is being considered or not is a matter for yourself) would look to enhance such discounts by BA paying for breakfast, lunch and dinner for each crew member for the duration of the slip. Whether the crew member decides to use their "allowance" is a matter of personal choice, but the "B", "L" and "D" would be eliminated from your allowance slips as it has been provided!
Now, IF a meal is triggered outside the hotel, the proposal is to provide the meal on board. Again, whether you choose not to eat what has been provided is up to you.
A grey area is what constitutes or how large/small a "breakfast", "lunch" or "dinner" should be, but you can expect generous helpings whatever your appetite!


As for the service levels at each hotel, the majority would be able to provide the proposed service and on certain slips the crews don't even leave the hotel! In some ways the new system would help crews as the current unfair system is based on menu prices...

All in all, the new crew card is the beginning of discreet crew cost reductions, believe me.

[maxy101]

At the risk of firing from the hip here, Iberia and Singapore Airlines pay for hotel meals as part of the hotel contract. I can foresee a scenario where this could be pushed through, probably with a change to an hourly rate perhaps? Without reading the Employment Guide , I don't know exactly how the meal/allowance agreement is written, but for instance, nobody is entitled to claim allowances when at main base, or where there is a BA canteen.

[traveller5]

maxy101 - you're right about main base, but you've highlighted another area in that if a service arrives late the missed meals would have to be paid, but this would still equate to huge savings. BA crews are notorious for asking the flight crews to slow down after landing when they are near to the trigger point of another meal. However, the new proposal includes ideas for disallowing trigger times to dictate what is paid, especially as a delayed longhaul service can trigger between £30 - £70/hr per person in cabin crew overtime, depending on sector length!

At the end of the day, it has been established that inflight triggered meal allowances do not serve any particular purpose as crews do not starve when on board, the contrary! The current system, most importantly on longhaul, means crews are being paid meal allowances while in flight, as well as downroute, but the crews have sufficient access to food on board! The inflight triggered meal allowances are therefore redundant and it would cost pennies to provide 15 cabin crew and 3 flight crew world traveller trays for flight meals against what is currentl paid. (although BA flight crews are now on a different hourly rate system...another story).

[Carnage Matey!]

Unfortunately your system doesn't work quite so well on short haul though, does it? Its all well and good to say everyone will eat on board, but the nutritional quality of the food will mean everyone is both sick and hungry after four days. BA have recently refused to pay the crew caterer in protest at the low standard of the food, which I think speaks volumes about how much it has deteriorated. Providing World Traveller trays won't work either. Firstly safety dictates that there should be reasonable variety in the food so that the whole crew don't get poisoned at once. Secondly there is the issue of serving the same WT meal everytime people go to work. They don't change the menus very often you know.

Also, the idea that most hotels provide 24 hour room service is somewhat optimstic. Fine if you want to eat nothing other than pizza, burger or microwave pasta all year, because thats all thats usually on the room service menu (and don't forget the hefty delivery charge). If the company aren't going to pay the premium for that service then are you seriously suggesting the cabin crew would agree to being forced into eating at the hotel restaurant at a time of the hotels choosing? It simply isn't practical. We have 100+ crew at many hotels on any given night. Do you think the hotel restaurant could cope when they all turn up over a 1 hour interval to eat?

There are some good ideas in your post, particularly about removing trigger times, but the plan to include all meals downroute in the hotel contract is simply unworkable.

[keeperboy]

Let's not get too off the track here.....

Traveller5's suggestion would be fantastic for BA management and i'm sure it isn't something that hasn't already be considered before.

But why do you think it hasn't already been implemented in the past??? I mean you don't really have to be that sly to think of the meal-in-hotel scenario.

The reason it hasn't been introduced in the past is because of the stumbling block that BA management will continue to have. That we have a contract that includes the wording of our allowence structure.

And I repeat, it DOESN'T include anything along the lines of "you will be paid an allowence OR provided with meals etc etc".

I actually went into the BASSA office yesterday and was shown in black and white the wording of our allowence agreement, of our BINDING contract that BA has signed up to. And it reads:

"....mainline cabin crews will be paid an allowence in appropriate currency at negotiated trigger times an amount equal or greater than a three course meal in an approved hotel restaurant. This does not affect the provision of in-flight crew meals".

I don't doubt that the meal-in-hotel system HAS been looked at but there is no way in can be introduced without the changing of contracts of 13,000 mainline cabin crew.

[ChewyTheWookie]

The thing is meal allowances are basically our salary in disguise. What you lot seem to fail to understand is that without meal allowances the cabin crew would take home around £10k. When we are downroute we don't spend our entire meal allowance, if we did we'd have no money in our pockets back home. Meal allowances are not simply to pay for meals. Without them NO ONE on the new contract could afford to work for BA.

There is no way there will be any change in the way things are done. Meal allowances are here to stay and if BA try to force a new system they will be left with no airline at all.

I agree there are a lot of expensive old contract crew out there who get paid a massive salary, but there are also a lot of post-1997 crew who do not. Anyone who joined after 1997 takes home a little above the average salary for cabin crew.

[BrakesOff]

Darkstar exactly what do you think a cabin crew member should earn? It would be interesting to hear what value (if any) you place on the role of cabin crew?

[ChewyTheWookie]

Brakesoff, just what I was thinking.

Yes Darkstar it is good to know that there are 2 well trained people to deal with any problems at the pointy end, but when the sh*t hits the fan it's the guys and girls at the back who are ensuring the self loading freight stays safe and gets evacuated properly.

Oh, we also provide a full meal and bar service at any hour of the day or night, look after screaming kids, nervous passengers, elderly ladies who can't walk, recusitate people having heart attacks, deal with drunken idiots and save the pilots a*ses when the captain collapses over the controls (as you may know this happened recently). All this and more when jet lagged and in turbulence.

So yes, the guys/girls at the front do a great job and deserve paying for it, but so do the team at the back.

[Carnage Matey!]

Slightly over stating things there a bit Chewy. I don't recall anyone saving the pilots asses when the Captain collapsed over the controls. I remember an FO saving everyones asses when the Captain collapsed over the controls. When the s*** hits the fan its the two people at the pointy end who keep everybody safe, your job is to make sure the passengers keep their seat belts on and open the doors. BA trying to force in a new meal system won't break the airline, nor will they find people unable or unwilling to work for them. Remember people work for Virgin for much less money and they seem to cope adequately with the staff turnover levels. Bransons shown it can be done, I've no doubt Willie is watching and learning.

[ChewyTheWookie]

Carnage, assuming you work for BA, try looking at the BA intranet, in particular the section on the lower left which states that 86% of passengers are extremely satisfied with the cabin crew. Cap everyone's pay at the £10k basic and the only crew you'll get are the ones who are desperate and will work for anyone. At the moment, the pay is decent so BA have a lot of applicants so can choose those who have the right personality for the job.

Again, assuming you work for BA, you will have and OOF course rostered to you at some point. I remember a quote from the leadership team member we had talk to us: "cabin crew are the jewel in BAs crown". Says it all don't you think?

I seriously think that any attempt to change crew allowances will not be met well by BASSA. BA know it will lead to strikes and another total disaster for the airline. They simply won't risk it.

So, as I said before, the pilots are great at handling the emergency that comes round once in a blue moon, but the crew are equally great at handling the constant problems that occur every day. I was on a flight a few weeks ago that was delayed by a few hours. The passengers were fuming and the captains PA made no sense to anyone and just annoyed people. It was the people skills of the cabin crew (no myself I might add, I was positioning) who kept the situation under control.

Before anyone has a go at me for slagging off flight crew, I am not. I am currently trying to get sponsorship to do airline flight training and anyone who reads the private flight forum will notice the posts about my upcoming trip to the USA to fly. I just wish people would acknowledge the hard work and skill of the cabin crew once in a while and stop thinking that all the important stuff happens at the front and we are just there to serve tea.

[keeperboy]

Guys and gals I wouldn't even waste your energy getting emotive on this subject.

Firstly, take a look at how this thread started. By someone called Virginfsm (no offence to you virginfsm) based on a post s/he had read on yet another airline 'forum'. Hardly anything concrete.

Secondly, unlike many other airlines our allowances form part of our Contract of Employment and are worded in a way that just don't allow changes such as those suggested by traveller5.

There are many people, some who post on this thread, that would love to see us lose our conditions and try to stir things up. Don't rise to it.

Our contracts cannot be changed without our approval. When a new allowance system that is fair to both the crew and BA are negotiated then maybe we can adopt it.

[Capt Pit Bull]

The main point, as made above, is that a lot of the allowances are simply salary in disguise. God forbid the taxman ever takes a serious, aggressive, look at it - but it has to happen sooner or later.

The bottom line is that crew (be it cabin or flight - I am the latter) have a total ammount of cash they take home. But for cabin crew, because the basic is so low (for more recent arrivals anyway) the allowances are a very significant part of their income.

Most cabin crew are based in the south east - think of the cost of living versus the basic salary. The bean counters would love to take a bite out of allowances - the knock on effects are obvious:-

1.) People will no longer be able to afford to stay as cabin crew as a serious career.
2.) It'll be a 'do it for a year or two for a laugh' and then get a 'proper' job somewhere else.
3.) A small increase in initial training costs as staff retention drops, but...
4.) A long term decrease in employment costs as all the troublesome issues like pay increments and pensions become irrelevant.

In other words its a win/win scenario for management.

The only question is whether CC unions will let them get away with it. I mostly concur with what Chewy says, except the

Again, assuming you work for BA, you will have and OOF course rostered to you at some point. I remember a quote from the leadership team member we had talk to us: "cabin crew are the jewel in BAs crown". Says it all don't you think?

bit. You surely realise that management will tell you what you want to hear, whilst figuring out how to knife you.

My own OOF day was a steaming pile of excrement, sound bites and platitudes, with the usual, not very subtle 'you lot are costing us to much' message tossed in for good measure - the one constant feature of all recent management briefings, designed to condition us into acceptance of the ongoing assault on T&Cs.


CPB

[traveller5]

Chewy - BUT the cabin crew are merely there to serve tea and coffee. You talk about saving the day, doing this and that, but you are only justifying the job! Equally, the flight crew are only paid to get the airline's bus services from A to B and back on time and safely...

I don't doubt BA crews are "jewels", but your OOF course reps will say lovely things about the crews as they are paid to! VS, JAL, Singapore etc all say the same about their crews.

[VirginFSM]

Hello Keeperboy!

To quote you

"There are many people, some who post on this thread, that would love to see us lose our conditions and try to stir things up. Don't rise to it."

I am joining BA cabin crew soon so I am V interested in whats going on!

See you there at Compass

Cheers

[triple x]

Traveller 5,

Do you really belive that cabin crew are there to serve tea and coffee ? That's it ?
Wow I am so surprised with that little comment

[Carnage Matey!]

Chewy I do work for BA. I also fill out the GPMs when I pax anywhere being nice to the crew, even if there were barely above average. I also see the negative GPMs go in the bin.

"cabin crew are the jewel in BAs crown"? Perhaps, but the research seems to indicate you're fairly low down the list when it comes to customers priorities. Comfort of seat, ease of check in, service frequency, corporate policy, safety and, for economy pax, price rate far higher in the passengers choice of airline. Service on board is almost incidental. Which annoys the pax more, a lousy meal or no IFE?

"the pilots are great at handling the emergency that comes round once in a blue moon, but the crew are equally great at handling the constant problems that occur every day"

If you were serious about flying training then you'd have heard the phrase A superior pilot uses his superior knowledge to avoid using his superior skills. We have emergencies once in a blue moon because the guys at the front are continually staying on top of the situation. Potential problems are dealt with before they occur. You'll learn that in flying training. That level of management gives you the luxury of only having routine daily problems to deal with, like handling delayed passengers because you wouldn't come out of the CAT lounge. We just don't feel the need to be honourd in BA news every week just for doing our job.

I'm not suggesting capping peoples pay at £10K (although we'd still be inundated by applicants from bmi and Virgin who earn about the same), but the allowance system will change one way or another without a strike. What proportion of new crew are joining BASSA? How many new crew think the allowance system is daft and dislke the variability? How many new crew are annoyed at losing a three day trip because they're late by one minute, with all the associated allowances, then having to live off the basic pay cos they got standbys instead? How many new contract crew would strike to preserve the fortunes of the old contract crew? They can afford to live on their basic. You can't. I don't think there's the will now that almost 50% of crew are new contract. I don't think Willy will think so either. IFS management is weak, ineffective and has had rings run round it by the BASSA reps. I don't think the new Chief is going to let that situation continue, do you?

[keel beam]

"BUT the cabin crew are merely there to serve tea and coffee. You talk about saving the day, doing this and that, but you are only justifying the job!"

Traveller5 - whatever credibility you had has been shot down in flames with that statement.

If you could compare expenses with all staff within the airline that claim expenses as part of their job you will find there are alot of differences. How do I know? By discussing with those people, ie pilots, cabin crew, engineers etc.

Expenses should be uniform for everyone that needs to claim them, obviously taking into consideration the cost of living in the country concerned.

[keeperboy]

Virginfsm, all the best for your training course and hope to see you around compass!

Carnage, I agree whole heartedly on a number of your points. But a lot of what you talk about is changes to the processes than our allowences. I agree, when I was on shorthaul I used to get so pi**ed off at losing a 3 day trip because I didn't achieve the minumum 1.5 hour break etc etc. And you are right, I don't think many new contract crew would strike to protect the benefits of the 'old contract' crew.

Believe me, I do understand that some First Officers get upset about earning less than some of the Cabin Crew. But in reality, how many of cabin crew does that apply to? Not many.

But what we are talking about here is changes to the allowence system. In a lot of ways the system is unfair. I, as a mainline crew member would be well and truely open to different options of working processes and allowence system. What I would never accept though is being out of pocket. I am happy to be more flexible etc but I do not want to lose out on money. The idea of having meals provided in hotel in lieu of allowences would be laughable. That is something I wouldnt hesitate for a minute to strike over.

I think I am paid fairly for the work I do. Yup, more than Virgin or Bmi, probably not as much as JAL or ANA crew though.

BASSA claims that around 80% of new recruits coming on-line are joining them. And in a lot of ways it is us, the new crew, who are more determined to keep decents terms and conditions than the 'old' crew as it will be us, not them, doing the job in another 10 or 20 years time.

Saying that, I hope to see some changes at BASSA. I do believe that sometimes they are far too much in the business of protecting the benefits of old contract crew while neglecting what crew on the new contract want. This has not suprisingly been influenced by the BASSA reps, who were all on the old contract. Times are changing though, the latest rep to be elected is the first rep we have on 'new contract'.

[sevenforeseven]

Oh my god Keeperboy. yes I had to take a peek, why does this sort of thread never go away? I can tell you why, because a bunch of overpaid trolly pushers are afraid.so,so afraid that the end of B.O.A.C days are near, very VERY VERY near.

[ChewyTheWookie]

Some of the comments here certainly explain the flight/cabin crew them and us divide.

"cabin crew ARE just there to push a trolley"

This is a pathetic statement made by someone who is ignorant and blinded by jealousy.

[triple x]

Guys,
I am starting my training with BA in 3 weeks. I have been reading you posts and I see that you talk alot about BASSA. Is that the union ? How many different unions there are ? Which one is better ?

Thanks

[come on]

You sad load of BA bashers make me laugh. You are all so jealous and green with envy that you can't help yourselves. So you didn't make the grade, wake up, get a life, get out of the crap airline or job you're with and stop moaning, make the most of your life instead of letting it pass you by. Yes, BA crew get paid well and maybe they don't work as hard as a lot of you and yes things will probably change but hey, that's life, it's happening in every industry. Can you honestly tell me you would turn down a salary increase or better working conditions if they were offered, no of course you wouldn't so why begrudge others.

What you need to undersatnd is that the crew at BA were recruited and given a contract on a particular salary level and with certain benifits and working conditions. If those are about to change then of course they're going to protest, we all would, you included.

Good luck to all of the BA crew, new and old, I think the next few years will see some changes, at least it'll keep the BASSA and CC89 reps busy!!!! Seriously, all the best to all of you.

P.S No, I don't work for BA, I was crew for many many brilliant years but left a few years ago with a very generous package.

[miche2]

Oh darlings! All this bickering is raising my blood pressure...
What can I say? I worked as a gorgeous and very well paid BA 747 trolley dolly for many years and I loved it for the first few. It has to be said that the cabin crew community really do stick together - which is definitely coming across here. BUT I can vividly recall that the mentality among crew was that BA should be grateful to have me, especially being a member of BASSA. One of many examples was a LHR-MIA (a trip BA crews tut and roll their eyes at!) when the passengers had been delayed in the terminal for 2 hours because of a tech problem. 90% of the crew stood in the J class galley on the beautiful 747-200 with their car keys ready saying, "as soon as we go out of hours,I'm stepping off this thing! If BA want me to do it, they can offer us some decent money and I'll want an extra day off!" 50 seconds later we were informed the problem had been fixed and we were going to MIA. Well, the passengers were in for a very pi**ed off crew, especially in M class. "BA is lucky to have me!"

Anyone that's read my other posts will know that I gave the job up because I found it pretty scummy (collecting leftovers/headsets), but there is no offence intended in my opinions. Cabin crew will always stick together and will always want to protect the job, but I remember flying with characters who really had convinced themselves that they did the best job in the world! Some people keep talking about the jealousy factor, but having done the job this is far from true for me....(i've just had to lie down after having a momentary flashback of pushing endless dirty trays into a trolley...).

One vodka later and I'm back. Anyway, I think people need to remember that without all these divine crew members - whatever airline - how would one go on gorgeous holidays? Cheers! (Oh, is it not lunchtime yet...oh well, I've poured it now!)

[sevenforeseven]

Chewy the wookie
Please get on your spacecraft and fly away.
I am NOT one little bit jealous of cabin "attendants".

[DarkStar]

There is no need for a FC v CC match here, no one wins and its a pointless exercise. What is important is the actual thread title. We will have to expect WW will take a swipe, whether it be obvious or subtle, at our allowances and sadly michy2 comments about the MIA delay story is all too true. I've been on a much delayed BA207 and seen the CC dismay when the A/c becomes -S- just before FTL's.....:rolleyes:

[OzzieO]

Can I just say a very big thank you to all the people that have posted negative comments about BA cabin crew.

It has really given me a good laugh and raised my spirits. I can now walk through terminal buildings with my head held up high when I pass other crews knowing that we at BA are the envy of the airline industry.

You sad bunch of wankers. God that felt good.

[BYMONEK]

Envy of the Airline industry?

About 15 years ago, during those excellent ads and the ' BA theme tune' that used to make the hair on the back of my neck stand up. Yes, I wanted to work for the World's favourite then. Couldn't understand anyone who didn't. But now, well how times change. Still good, but perhaps not riding the same high wave as years gone by and begining to blend in with many others. For Pilots at least, just as good if not better career moves available at several UK Airlines now. For the Cabin Crew, almost same story.
Career well developed now, so not bitter nor green with envy. As a shareholder, however, with a significant number of shares I would like to see some of the old restrictive working practices changed. Increase your basic and get rid of needless payments for this, that and the other. Company needs to stay lean to survive in this day and age with the likes of Ryanair / Easy competing on shorthaul.
Am aware,also, that if Company are making record profits, you as staff should benefit,as well as shareholders, which many BA staff are anyway.
You may not be the envy you once were,however, you can still hold your heads high.
Just stop this pilot / Cabin Crew bickering eh?

[pollypocket36]

Why is everything on this site about BA always negative. Wheather it starts off postivie it always ends up negative. At the end of the day, I'm glad to be working for BA. No doubt things will have to change but be warned, not one member crew will accept a pay cut. I, along with many others are open minded with regards to new payments of allowancews but it needs to be done fairly and properly. Not like a few months ago where it was rushed and BA were feeding us with lies about the tax man. Conditions may change, which at the end of the day may be a good thing with regards to loosing trips, extra sectors etc. However, BASSA will put their foot down if things get out of hand. I've previously worked for two airlines where the unions have been absolutely useless. It's good to see a union with a bit of strength and teamwork.

I'm not one of there so called people who won't do anything for the company as it's "not part of my contract" as I definately would help them out. I'm sure the company recognise this and a situation will arise where both the crew and company are happy. It's always best not to pi@@ off your mainlie staff as this could have an awful affect in the long run. BA know this already as shown through their recent behaviour.

[keeperboy]

pollypocket you are so right......

people that put posts on here making out we are born with a silver spoon in our mouth and don't know what hard work is make me laugh.

I came from bmi, so believe me I KNOW what hard work is. Most of my collegues at BA have come from other airlines as well such as Easyjet, Virgin, Mytravel etc etc. We all know we have got it good and I believe give our worth back to BA in loyalty and hard work.

[Carnage Matey!]

We all know we have got it good and I believe give our worth back to BA in loyalty and hard work.

Sadly that view is a minority one keeper. You won't find many attitudes like that when the Windsor Witches are walking off the flight because its one minute beyond their industrial agreement, stranding a jumbo load of passengers in the process. And that is probably the root of the problem.

[pollypocket36]

Yes I agree, there are a few people out there with the
"industrial agreements" so far up their a@@e that they can recite it backwards. However, the majority are flexible and are willing to help the company if neccessary. I've seen this many times during my year at BA and rarely see the opposite. As peope say, it has changed alot and the majority know that further changes will be iminent. It's a fact of BA life that we, as crew, have known since I've been at BA. Perhaps even longer. I'm glad to have a job with BA, as I'm sure most are. When things happen we will let you know.