Trafalgar 200

[portwait]

Came across the following in today's Sunday Times...............

ADMIRAL NELSON saw off the mighty Franco-Spanish fleet at the battle of Trafalgar but 200 years on, he has been sunk by a wave of political correctness.
Organisers of a re-enactment to mark the bicentenary of the battle next month have decided it should be between “a Red Fleet and a Blue Fleet” not British and French/Spanish forces.

Otherwise they fear visiting dignitaries, particularly the French, would be embarrassed at seeing their side routed.

Even the official literature has been toned down. It describes the re-enactment not as the battle of Trafalgar but simply as “an early 19th-century sea battle”.

A host of French dignitaries will attend the event, which will take place off Southsea near Portsmouth, the home of Nelson’s fleet.

The aim is to create a spectacular “son et lumière” re-enactment with pyrotechnics, lights and effects from barges in the Solent. Tall ships will create the illusion of a real battle.

But the organisers of the event confirmed last week that there would be no national “sides”, a fact that has surprised some of the event’s sponsors.

One said: “It seems remarkable that we are not saying this is Britain versus France in this re-enactment. Surely 200 years on, we can afford to gloat a bit. Not even the French can try and get snooty about this.”

In the 1805 sea battle off the coast of Spain, Nelson’s 27 ships destroyed a combined French and Spanish fleet of 33 ships. The British lost no ships but sank or captured 22 of their opponents’ vessels.

Although Nelson died in the battle, his victory paved the way for Britain’s naval supremacy, which lasted a century.

A spokeswoman for the Royal Navy said: “This is an illustration and theatre on water. Nelson is featured, but we are not billing it as Britain versus France . . . This will not be a French-bashing opportunity.”

The battle will be staged in the evening of the international fleet review on June 28. The Queen and senior royals will attend the day’s events and government leaders from 73 countries have been invited.

--------------------------

I draw your attention to the facts that we did NOT fight the French at the Battle of Trafalgar but the "Reds" (not sure how the old Warsaw Pact countries will take to that, they too may get upset) at "an early 19th-century sea battle”.

WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I suppose World War 1 and 2 never happened and we wouldn't want to talk about GW1 or 2 as it might upset those involved.

Imagine no Battle of Britain day for the RAF (might upset the Germans) - No flying of Regimental colours as the past battles may offend those the Army beat!! Good G-D no more Taranto Night!!!!!!!!!!

The Lunatics have taken over the asylum.
If as a Naval Officer and aviator I can't celebrate the history of a once great organisation then whats the point? In the words of the immortal song "I got to get out of this place if its the last thing I ever do"
Anyone got the number for the Tongan Navy or anywhere else it seriously can't be as bad as this outfit.

"Upset the French" pah we've been doing it for years and it won't stop now.

That's it rant over

Portwait

[ZH875]

Have the French won a fight since 1066?

[FEBA]

- Gallic Wars
- Lost. In a war whose ending foreshadows the next 2000 years of French history, France is conquered by of all things, an Italian.

- Hundred Years War
- Mostly lost, saved at last by female schizophrenic who inadvertently creates The First Rule of French Warfare; "France's armies are victorious only when not led by a Frenchman." Sainted.

- Italian Wars
- Lost. France becomes the first and only country to ever lose two wars when fighting Italians.

- Wars of Religion
- France goes 0-5-4 against the Huguenots

- Thirty Years War
- France is technically not a participant, but manages to get invaded anyway. Claims a tie on the basis that eventually the other participants started ignoring her.

- War of Revolution
- Tied. Frenchmen take to wearing red flowerpots as chapeaux.

- The Dutch War
- Tied

- War of the Augsburg League/King William's War/French and Indian War
- Lost, but claimed as a tie. Three ties in a row induces deluded Frogophiles the world over to label the period as the height of French military power.

- War of the Spanish Succession
- Lost. The War also gave the French their first taste of a Marlborough, which they have loved every since.

- American Revolution
- In a move that will become quite familiar to future Americans, France claims a win even though the English colonists saw far more action. This is later known as "de Gaulle Syndrome", and leads to the Second Rule of French Warfare; "France only wins when America does most of the fighting."

- French Revolution
- Won, primarily due the fact that the opponent was also French.

- The Napoleonic Wars
- Lost. Temporary victories (remember the First Rule!) due to leadership of a Corsican, who ended up being no match for a British footwear designer.

- The Franco-Prussian War
- Lost. Germany first plays the role of drunk Frat boy to France's ugly girl home alone on a Saturday night.

- World War I
- Tied and on the way to losing, France is saved by the United States. Thousands of French women find out what it's like to not only sleep with a winner, but one who doesn't call her "Fraulein." Sadly, widespread use of condoms by American forces forestalls any improvement in the French bloodline.

- World War II
- Lost. Conquered French liberated by the United States and Britain just as they finish learning the Horst Wessel Song.

- War in Indochina
- Lost. French forces plead sickness; take to bed with the Dien Bien Flu

- Algerian Rebellion
- Lost. Loss marks the first defeat of a western army by a Non-Turkic Muslim force since the Crusades, and produces the First Rule of Muslim Warfare; "We can always beat the French." This rule is identical to the First Rules of the Italians, Russians, Germans, English, Dutch, Spanish, Vietnamese and Esquimaux.

- War on Terrorism
- France, keeping in mind its recent history, surrenders to Germans and Muslims just to be safe. Attempts to surrender to Vietnamese ambassador fail after he takes refuge in a McDonald's.

The question for any country silly enough to count on the French should not be "Can we count on the French?", but rather "How long until France collapses?"

"Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without an accordion. All you do is leave behind a lot of noisy baggage."

Or, better still, the quote from last week's Wall Street Journal: "They're there when they need you."



With only an hour and a half of research, Jonathan Duczkowski provided the following losses:

Norse invasions, 841-911.
After having their way with the French for 70 years, the Norse are bribed by a French King named Charles the Simple (really!) who gave them Normandy in return for peace. Normans proceed to become just about the only positive military bonus in France's [favour] for next 500 years.

Mexico, 1863-1864.
France attempts to take advantage of Mexico's weakness following its thorough thrashing by the U.S. 20 years earlier ("Halls of Montezuma"). Not surprisingly, the only unit to distinguish itself is the French Foreign Legion (consisting of, by definition, non-Frenchmen). Booted out of the country a little over a year after arrival.

Panama jungles 1881-1890.
No one but nature to fight, France still loses; canal is eventually built by the U.S. 1904-1914.

Napoleonic Wars.
Should be noted that the Grand Armee was largely (~%50) composed of non-Frenchmen after 1804 or so. Mainly disgruntled minorities and anti-monarchists. Not surprisingly, these performed better than the French on many occasions.

Haiti, 1791-1804.
French defeated by rebellion after sacrificing 4,000 Poles to yellow fever. Shows another rule of French warfare; when in doubt, send an ally.

India, 1673-1813.
British were far more charming then French, ended up victors. Therefore the British are well known for their tea, and the French for their whine (er, wine...). Ensures 200 years of bad teeth in England.

Barbary Wars, middle ages-1830.
Pirates in North Africa continually harass European shipping in Meditteranean. France's solution: pay them to leave us alone. America's solution: kick their asses ("the Shores of Tripoli"). [America's] first overseas victories, won 1801-1815.

1798-1801, Quasi-War with U.S.
French privateers (semi-legal pirates) attack U.S. shipping. U.S. fights France at sea for 3 years; French eventually cave; sets precedent for next 200 years of Franco-American relations.

Moors in Spain, late 700s-early 800s.
Even with Charlemagne leading them against an enemy living in a hostile land, French are unable to make much progress. Hide behind Pyrennes until the modern day.

French-on-French losses (probably should be counted as victories too, just to be fair):

1208: Albigenses Crusade, French massacared by French.
When asked how to differentiate a heretic from the faithful, response was "Kill them all. God will know His own." Lesson: French are badasses when fighting unarmed men, women and children.

St. Bartholomew Day Massacre, August 24, 1572.
Once again, French-on-French slaughter.

Third Crusade.
Philip Augustus of France throws hissy-fit, leaves Crusade for Richard the Lion Heart to finish.

Seventh Crusade.
St. Louis of France leads Crusade to Egypt. Resoundingly crushed.

[Eighth] Crusade.
St. Louis back in action, this time in Tunis. See Seventh Crusade.

Also should be noted that France attempted to hide behind the Maginot line, sticking their head in the sand and pretending that the Germans would enter France that way. By doing so, the Germans would have been breaking with their traditional route of invading France, entering through Belgium (Napoleonic Wars, Franco-Prussian War, World War I, etc.). French ignored this though, and put all their effort into these defenses.

Thomas Whiteley has submitted this addition to me:

Seven year War 1756-1763
Lost: after getting hammered by Frederick the Great of Prussia (yep, the Germans again) at Rossbach, the French were held off for the remainder of the War by Frederick of Brunswick and a hodge-podge army including some Brits. War also saw France kicked out of Canada (Wolfe at Quebec) and India (Clive at Plassey).

The French consider the departure of the French from Algeria in 1962-63, after 130 years on colonialism, as a French victory and especially consider C. de Gaulle as a hero for 'leading' said victory over the unwilling French public who were very much against the departure. This ended their colonialism. About 2 million ungrateful Algerians lost their lives in this shoddy affair.

[tmmorris]

Well, we're planning to celebrate in style at our school... a dinner, a concert (Haydn's Nelson Mass, of course) &c &c

Anyone fancy a fly-past?

Tim

[Titan Locked]

It's an old one I know but go to www.google.co.uk and type in "french military victories" into the search box (without the " ") and then select 'I'm Feeling Lucky' .....

:}

TL

[AllTrimDoubt]

Why did Nelson alter course to "cross the tee"at Trafalgar? He was coming to a flying course, obviously!!!

:O

[fatobs]

As discussed at length on another thread the RN is having great difficulty recruiting at the moment.

Of course this type of media coverage will help!

If we can't celebrate a battle which helped to shape the course of history then how are we supposed to inspire the sailors of the future?

I am sure our three recruiting caravans (or whatever they are) will do a roaring business during the feely touchy "celebrations" (the army will have big tanks and guns the RAF lots of zoomy things) and we will be talking about an early 19th Century sea battle! course I'm sure there will be no discussion of hanging from the yard arm or keel hauling but I bet there will be some poor sailor dancing the Hornpipe.

The whole thing reminds me of a Monty python sketch only its not funny. What a pathetic age we live in.

PortWait if you find the number for the Tongan Navy or wherever let me know and I will come and join you.

[Pontius Navigator]

FEBA wrote:

- World War I
- Tied and on the way to losing, France is saved by the United States. Thousands of French women find out what it's like to not only sleep with a winner, but one who doesn't call her "Fraulein." Sadly, widespread use of condoms by American forces forestalls any improvement in the French bloodline

From my studies Papa Jofre almost lost the war at the outset. As the Germans swept in from Belgium he attacked the Germans to the East.

So successful was this that the Germans almost made Paris. Joffre, against all odds, managed to stabilise the French line which gave us a chance to join in and that was it for the next 4 years.

Joffre almost lost the war in the beginning and caused the war to drag on for four years.

[C130 Techie]

Political correctness at its worst!!

You cannot change history it is FACT it happened!!

Rule Britannia!!

[FEBA]

PN
Actually FEBA didn't write it. I merely did a c&p from an american web site. Well done for spotting that USA won every battle for us, excepting 1066 of course; or maybe William the conqueror was from Holywood?
Any way the jist of the quote is in line with the majority opinion of our perfidious mates across the channel.

[Pontius Navigator]

FEBA, I didn't realise you did a c&p. I certainly didn't say anything about the spams. Joffre was French.

I think the Americans have been suffering ever since the Civil War where they were horrified by warfare and the casulaties. Ever after I believe that have tried to minimise casualties by use of technology. In WW1 they helped . In WW2 they helped. True, once the Japanese had attacked things changed but they still brought technology to play.

In the 60-73 war they used all sorts of technology to try and get the war winning weapon.

In GW1 and GW2 they had it hacked.

Next, personal reactive armour?

[DaveyBoy]

ZH875... you give the French too much credit! As FEBA pointed out, the Normans were settlers from Scandinavia who were given the North Coast of France in 911 after a battle which the French, er, lost :-)

Worth remembering that at Hastings they were led by the bloke who was heir to the throne of England right up to the time the Edward the Confessor allegedly changed his mind on his deathbed and gave it to Harold instead.

Whether you consider William a bona fide Englishman or a descendent of Vikings, he weren't no Frog :-)

[Blacksheep]

The Bastard conversed in Ffrench though... ;)

[buoy15]

Garcon! - une grand cafe-au-laite si vous plait

Are you Eengleesh?

No, I'm the King of Europe mate! pour the bloody coffee - Ha!

[speedbirdzerozeroone]

Reminds me of (about 8 years ago) when Hollywood considered a modern remake of “The Dambusters.” They later dropped the project because of a range of niggling problems they couldn’t remedy; one casting issue was that of Gibson’s dog…

001 (History BA)

[rafloo]

Portsmouth MP Mike Hancock said an event which did not acknowledge who the enemy was is "absolute twaddle".

The Lib Dem MP said: "If we are going to re-enact it we should do it properly. I am sure the French do not pull any punches when they celebrate Napoleon's victories

The French will be there - let's not rub it in but at least be accurate. I see no reason why we should not be out there proud as punch proclaiming it."

He said it was unlikely the decision was made by a serving naval officer and concluded it must have been "a faceless bureaucrat somewhere who thinks their next posting might be in Paris."

One event sponsor said: "Surely 200 years on we can afford to gloat a bit."

"Not even the French can try and get snooty about this."

Official literature for the event refers to "an early 19th-century sea battle" instead of the Battle of Trafalgar, The Sunday Times said.

Organisers have confirmed there will be no "sides" at the Trafalgar 200 event on 28 June, which is taking place off Southsea, near Portsmouth, it added.

The Ministry of Defence said: "This is not a historical re-enactment. It is a piece of theatre, and not supposed to be historically accurate."

The spectacle will involve tall ships in a mock battle alongside fireworks, lights and music.

Lord Admiral Horatio Nelson, whose fleet was based at Portsmouth, famously led his sailors to victory in 1805.

His 27 ships defeated the combined French and Spanish fleet of 33 ships, sinking or capturing 22 vessels off Spain.

Nelson died during the battle but his victory paved the way for a century of British naval supremacy.

A spokeswoman for the Royal Navy said of the event: "This is an illustration and theatre on water.

Nelson is featured, but we are not billing it as Britain versus France. This will not be a French-bashing opportunity."

[portwait]

Ah must have missed the bit about

"spokeswoman"

Suppose in thes new fluffy times Nelson was female too.

[FEBA]

Why not re-enact the battle for French TV but this time they win it.
Who would play villenueve?

[pr00ne]

portwait,

A "spokeswoman," do you have a problem with women? How on earth does the fact that the MOD spokesperson was female enter into this AT ALL?

Where on earth do you get that this somehow makes Nelson female? Life on your planet must be rather different from ours..........


I do find all of this rather odd, we don't have any of this nonsense every Sept with the Battle of Britain, some dullard who would make a good local councillor with special reponsibility for traffic calming and speed restrictions just HAS to be resonsible for this.

[goffer hopper]

just a quickie...... can we still bash the italians over taranto or is that now frowned upon aswell?

[I_stood_in_the_door]

prOOne,

Surely you mean the 'Battle over the coast, somewhere down south'?

Don't want to upset our Bosch friends, what?

The french, now and always will be the real enemy!

Je suis un loser!!

lfogootfw

ISITD

:}

[Gainesy]

Nelson must be spinning so fast we may have found the replacement for nuclear power.:mad:

[ORAC]

Ever visited the battlefield at Waterloo? You come away with the distinct impression the little fella won. Thank god the battle of Trafalgar was sea....... :rolleyes:

Are we allowed to mention Mers el Kebir and Oran? :E

[[email protected]]

How many Frenchmen does it take to defend Paris?.........






They don't know, they've never tried....

[cazatou]

Some French know how to fight.

On 1 February 1943 General LeClerc brought his meagre forces,under constant attack by German forces, from Lake Chad to join Montgomery at Tripoli. He was handed over to a Supply Officer (later General Sir Charles Richardson) who sought to ascertain the re-equipment necessary to enable the French to continue fighting.

Quote

"And he produced the tiniest piece of paper,notepaper, I've ever seen - the only bit he'd been able to keep for 2000 miles or whatever.

He looked at this and said "Deux Camions / Cinq Mitrailleuses" and so it went on - very modest indeed"

[Widger]

Maybe the Dutch would like us to attend Medway 350 next year.

We can then celebrate the achievements of Tromp and DeRuyter!

[Zuma Zuma]

Quite witty...

Google Search (http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/text/victories.html)

[Scud-U-Like]

Same old jingoistic bull$hit this sort of thread always attracts. In fact, I think most of the comments here have been cut and pasted from previous threads. We spend far too much time in this country dwelling on our past glories. History is, of course, important, but I'm not sure a war, 200 years ago, with a country that is now our ally, is worth making such a song and dance about.

[FEBA]

Scud
Take it your a Frenchie then; eh!

[Safety_Helmut]

Scud
with a country that is now our ally
Hmmmm ?

Safety_Helmut:confused: