Did You Fly The Valiant?

[Art Field]

It has been suggested that there might be some mileage in running a Valiant theme along the lines of the Vulcan blockbuster. Unfortunately the Valiant fell to metal fatigue quite quickly but it was an interesting aircraft and there must be some out there who can pass on their memories.

As a starter I offer a story which connects the Valiant and the Vulcan together.Being a fairly primitive aircraft the Valiant was able to revert to direct manual control in spite of having power assistance. It was extremely heavy to fly without the power assist and almost impossible above 250kts. Prior to one of the Vulcan non-stops to Australia a Flat Iron pilot came down to Marham and flew a look see receiver sortie with Mick Meadows, the 214 Sqn QFI. Mick showed him a smooth demo of prodding and then handed over to him for a go whilst quietly tripping the power assist. The Vulcan guy struggled for a few minutes, sweat pouring off his brow and then gave up. He turned to Mick with obvious admiration as the Valiant slipped back into contact marvelling at his skill, Mick had of course put the PCU's back on. Being the gentleman joker that he was Mick did put the Vulcan guy out of his misery and he was subsequently able to make a few contacts though still having to cope with an aircraft that even with the PCU's on(not PFCU's in the Valiant) was quite a bit heavier to fly than the one he was used to.

[BEagle]

Here's a question for everyone:

What was the last RAF use of the Valiant?

[Tiger_mate]

"What was the last RAF use of the Valiant?"

Bomber
Photo Recce
Tanker

B(PR)K

Gate guard at Marham

RAF Museum Hendon

Cold War display at Cosford (desig)

[BEagle]

None of the above!

[diginagain]

Come on then, BEagle, let's have it!
I enjoyed your words on the Vulcan, lets continue with the Valiant thread.

[spekesoftly]

Taking part in the flypast on the 29th of April 1968 to mark the disbandment of RAF Bomber Command (which was now becoming Strike Command) ?

[BOAC]

I'll add to ss's ?correct? answer:

Gate guard at RAF Marham - since gone away - (rusted/
disintegrated or gorn to the RAF Museum?:D

[BEagle]

OK - XD818 at Marham was used to play the part of the Tu-16 Badger intercepted in that QRA movie. It didn't fly, of course, but a few blokes in old-style LSJs and leather helmets pretended to be Russians flying it and to look out at the F-4 which had intercepted them. Quite a convincing effort!

XD818 didn't rust away - it was moved to the RAF Museum at Hendon and was re-painted in original anti-flash white.

[Tiger_mate]

XD818 didn't rust away - it was moved to the RAF Museum at Hendon and was re-painted in original anti-flash white.

......and is about to join a Victor and Vulcan under cover at Cosford.

[diginagain]

I don't suppose anyone can recall the names on the display board in front of '818, when it was at Marham?
Our ATC Squadron went to Marham on summer camp one year, our OC was a Nav called Derek Hood - a Flt Lt (I think) D. Hood was listed on the board as having been a member of the crew commemorated on the board, something to do with live drops of the weapon in Oz.

[BEagle]

XD818 dropped the test devices on or near Christmas Island, not on Oz!

Anyway, here is a piccie of the crew, including F/O Hood:

http://www.christmas-island.org/hubbard/book_photos/photo_pages/page_22.html

[Smoketoomuch]

Any of the A-bomb test aircrew still around? Any here? Would be fascinating to hear some accounts of those events - not technical stuff, more an impression of what it was like to be involved in doing such extraordinary things. A mere picture of a live A-bomb fills me with awe - god only knows what it must be like to actually set one off.

Probably a forlorn hope, the recent Cold War TV prog revealed the sort of secrecy involved, with the aircraft surrounded by screens as it was loaded so the aircrew never saw the bomb at all. Probably all had their tongues cut out after landing.

It's a real disservice to history IMO if there isn't to be a well written account, I'm sure all the technical stuff is well documented but that will obviously never be released. One of the great shames of the moon program is that we *still* don't know what it actually felt like to go there - those astronaughts were very bright chaps but none of them were blessed with great powers of description. The moon-shots and the Manhattan project are often referred to as the two biggest industrial projects ever, hopefully we can get better accounts of what must be one of Britain's greatest endeavours.

[Art Field]

I missed most of the TV programme but I saw a definitely alive Alan Pringle whom I believe was involved.

The Valiant systems were mainly electrical and DC at that. The undercarriage legs had individual large electric motors for normal raise and lower plus smaller ones for emergency lower. This did not normally cause any problems however, on one particular sortie, it nearly resulted in the loss of an aircraft. Ted Longdon and his crew were recovering to Marham and selected undercarriage down, all was fine until the legs got fully down when a short across the selector caused the legs to retract again. Because each leg was independently powered the legs got completely out of sequence shaking the aircraft violently to the point were it seemed the aircraft might break up. Finally the crew managed to catch an instant when all three lights were green and the AEO tripped a vital fuse. A very pale faced crew returned to the squadron, somewhat shaken in every sense.

[Milt]

First Valiant prototype had some sort of fire in the air and took out its crew. Anyone know the details.

[BossEyed]

Milt,

As ever, Derek Collier-Wood's "UK Flight Testing Accidents 1940-1971" comes up trumps:

"12 January 1952 Valiant(P) WB210

Mr G.R. 'Jock' Bryce (Chief Test Pilot), Sqn Ldr B.H.D. Foster DSO DFC and bar (RAF Liaison and Co-Pilot) plus Mr G.R. Holland, Mr J.N. Montgomery and Mr J. Protheroe-Thomas (Flight Test Observers), Vickers-Armstrong Wisley, based at Hurn during runway construction at Wisley. Engine shutdown and relight tests, in connection with the noise measurement trials for the V1000, a projected military transport derivative of the Valiant. Fuel spillage from three previously unsuccessful re-lights leaking into the wing structure caught fire and burnt through the starboard wing. After the three Flight Test Observers had bailed out, both pilots ejected at 6,000ft and 200 knots over Holmsley South airfield, five miles northeast of Christchurch, Hampshire, in a steeply banked dive. Foster jettisoned the canopy and ejected first but was killed after striking the fin; the blast from an explosion in one of the fuel tanks may have reduced his escape velocity to a fatal level. However, it had been previously recognised that the Martin Baker Mk.3a prototype seats with an ejection velocity of 60ft/sec gave rise to a risk of collision with the fin and instructions were issued to fit 80 ft/sec guns. These guns arrived at Vickers two days after the accident. [Foster was recorded as the 12th Martin Baker live ejection and Bryce as the 13th. Modifications to the BPC cured the fault but extensive modifications to the protection of the fuel system were also made.] 1 killed, Cat 5. [Foster (30 years of age) had been a pathfinder bomber pilot with a distinguished war record and was a war substantive Wing Commander] "

The book has a picture of the aircraft, too , in natural metal finish.

[Blacksheep]

A nice atmospheric photo Beags, the typical crew chief's beret style and upside down stripes bring back some old memories...

Them were the days ar'reet ...

[Milt]

Thanks BossEyed.

I should have known as I ended up sitting many hours on those 80 ft/sec guns and came close to trying to use one in the second prototype WD215 during its absolutely last flight, barely surviving a wing main spar failure at AUW following a launch using two Super Sprite rocket assist take off units.

At Boscombe Down in the late 50s we had 373 - can't remember the letters - in which I endeavoured to marry together the multiple boxes of the Navigation Bombing System NBS and the Mk 10 autopilot. Each box had in/out specifications and trying to sort out a string of them was a challenge to any TP. Then one had to test the protective devices to cater for full rate runaways of the autopilot throughout the flight envelope. Very exciting flights close to many manoeuvre limits.

Then we had a couple of Valiant bomb trucks which were employed extensively for weapon carriage and release clearances. Lyme bay must have thousands of inert bombs lining its bottom. That testing for the Valiant drove me to distraction because of the way the cg drifted around with fuel useage. How was it - use of wing tanks took the cg rearwards and fus tanks forwards? The cg slide rule ran hot trying to achieve conditions which would not over run the cg limits following a release of bomb clusters from forward or rear stations. Forced me to design a cg calculator using a centre reading micro-ammeter and a multitude of knobs.

We couldn't rely too much on whatever pilot we could find for the right seat, often enlisted from nearby bases with the question "Any pilots over there like a ride in a Valiant/Vulcan/Victor tomorrow?" This was all because TPs tried to avoid the right seats like the plague and we didn't have any regular right seaters.

Any of those one time right seaters care to come out of the woodwork with a description of the experience?

[Samuel]

The very first trials unit of four B2 Victors was C Squadron which operated from the far side of the airfield at Cottesmore circa 1961, the CO of which was a very nice Sqn Ldr who's name I forget, but who came over to the crash-bay one day to introduce himself.

He was the Captain of the Valiant which had a serious in-flight fire and landed with a huge hole in a wing and a few seconds left on the main spar.

[Milt]

Samuel

What is a "crash-bay"? And what were you doing in it?

[Samuel]

The crash-bay was where the airfield fire section was located, next to the Tower, and I was at that time a member of the crash crew.

The CO at the time was a Gp Capt Martin, who took over from the late Johnny Johnson.

[speedbirdzerozeroone]

quote: Tiger

***
XD818 didn't rust away - it was moved to the RAF Museum at Hendon and was re-painted in original anti-flash white.

......and is about to join a Victor and Vulcan under cover at Cosford.

***

Whats all this about a move...? That Valiant has a great little spot in the corner behind the Halifax remains. You winding me up?

001

[Gainesy]

Not just Lyme Bay full of Valiant detritus. The sea bed off the eastern end of Akrotiri's runway has a fair few rusty JATO/RATO (whatever they used?) bottles from Valiants. Only about 20-30ft down.

Remember at least one "silver" Valiant at Finningley in late 1950s/early 60s, I think it was with Bomber Command Development Unit but may have been 18Sqn.

[GeeRam]

Whats all this about a move...? That Valiant has a great little spot in the corner behind the Halifax remains. You winding me up?

No he's not.

'818 will be moved to Cosford, to be displayed alongside the Vulcan and Victor already there, as part of the new Cold War exhibition to be housed in the new building that's currently or about to be built.

[speedbirdzerozeroone]

Cheers for the headsup GeeRam!

Are they taking the old Blue Steel lorry and police Zepher as well, to fully complete the diorama?

I suppose the B.2 won’t miss her consort @ Hendon, (she’s got her back turned…!)

[Gainesy]

Couple of pics, The one tanking the Javelin is an 18Sqn aircraft, taken November 1960. Nothing to indicate what the other is about, PR role perhaps?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v167/Gainesy/Valiantcanberra.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v167/Gainesy/ValJaveAAR.jpg

[Skylark4]

The "top" Canberra is definitely a PR 9.
(Wing chord inboard of engines and tips extend beyond tip-tanks).

Mike W

[Art Field]

Sorry to contradict you Gainesy but by the time the Javelin pic was taken XD816 was a 214 Sqn aircraft being by then a BK1 with the extra fuel pipery needed for the tanker role. Indeed I have the selfsame photo in my ancient logbook.

[passpartout]

Regarding the bottom picture,

Was the Valiant a small bomber, or was the Javelin a huge fighter?

The two almost seem out of proportion.

[Gainesy]

No problem Art, just going by a scribbled pencil caption on the back of the print.

[Art Field]

Passpartout, Yes x 2. The Javelin was a bit of a brute, in the climb and in the cruise, transit fit, the two aircraft had a pretty comparable performance. We would send the Jav on when a couple of hundred miles out from destination and they might be half a mile ahead after 20 minutes or so but when the descent clearance came they disappeared within seconds, the best descent performance you would ever see. The Valiant was the smallest of the V's and the slowest, cruising around mach 0.76 rather than the mach 0.86 of the other two.

[Beeayeate]

Nothing to indicate what the other is about, PR role perhaps?

The top photo was taken for RAF Wyton's "Welcome" booklet which was issued to you when you arrived at the station. I still have mine, received it when I was posted in to 51 Sqn in 1965. The picture appears on page 5 of the booklet and shows the main aircraft that were then based at Wyton - a 543 Sqn Valiant, a 58 Sqn Canberra PR.9 and a 51 Sqn Canberra B.6(R) (bottom aircraft).

[Milt]

Valiant flight control feel system.

The Valiant had a rare feature providing the pilot with an ability to close down the flight control feel system which I recall was "Q feel". This indicated a lack of confidence by the designer in the long term viability of the system.

Were there any failures or bugs in service attributed to the feel systems? I think that I would rather have relied on Martin Baker to get me back down than my ability to land with an inoperative elvator feel system. Trying to land in manual was bad enough!!

I doubt whether squadron pilots would have been permitted to close down any of the three systems as without feel the forward weight of the yoke, if let go, would have been enough to pitch the aircraft over to a negative g value high enough to clap the wings together. This would spoil your day!.

[reynoldsno1]

Wasn't the Javelin (FAW 8?) the only aircraft designed that went slower in reheat - or at least engaging reheat actually reduced thrust?

[henry crun]

That was true, the thrust did reduce at low level.

The fuel system was such that engaging reheat diverted fuel from the engine which would lose about 3% rpm.

For this reason it was recommended the reheat only be used above 20,000ft.

[BEagle]

And wasn't the Jav also the world's first non-aerobatic fighter?

Didn't realise the Valiant cruised at only around M0.76. Was that due to the low sweepback angle?

But I learn that the Valiant B2 once cracked up 480 KIAS at low level! That would have been a truly impressive sight! I guess it was pretty heavy on the controls at those speeds though?

[Milt]

Henry crun

Did you fly the Valiant has diverted to Did you fly the Javelin for a bit !!

For my only ride in a Javelin, my logic told me I should shut down reheat/afterburner after take off. It then became a lead sled and the climb out was almost interminable.

After flight advice was "oh but you should have climbed in reheat".

Now you are saying my logic was right !!!.

[Art Field]

Milt, re the Valiant feel system. I have vague recollections (after all we are going a long way back) of punctures in the bellows causing the controls to lose "Q feel" but I think there were some springs in there to retain a modicum of force.

Beags, I guess you have to remember that the Valiant design was of the middle of the century and Mach 0.76 was pretty good for an aircraft that size, the wing was certainly not greatly swept and was rather thick, bit like the Javelin. It has just occured to me that I started my operational flying on the Vickers Valiant and finished it 35 years later on the Vickers VC10, a very different aircraft.

[Navaleye]

And wasn't the Jav also the world's first non-aerobatic fighter?

It's memory and tradition lives on in the Tornado F3.

[Zoom]

One or more Valiant attended the Nigerian Independence celebrations in Oct 1960 and my father, who lived there, got hold of some excellent 6x8 photos of the aircraft and whatever else was on display - some TU-104s and/or TU-124s at least, I seem to remember. As a new teenager I drooled over these for hours on end; the Valiant(s) just looked the bee's knees. Anyone here involved in that jolly?

[BEagle]

M0.76 was indeed pretty good for a middle of the 20th Century jet. Coming as it did straight after the Lincoln/Washington era.

In your career you must have operated all the V-bombers* and every RAF variant of VC10, I guess, Art Field. That must be an unique accomplishment indeed!



*except the Vimy? :p

[Milt]

Valiant Highlights

Extract from memoirs.

I flew on a few of the contractor flights with Vicker's pilots. Their chief test pilot was then Brian Trubshaw and we got to know each other very well. He later went on to be the Chief British Test pilot on Concord.

We test pilots used to attend various meetings at the aircraft contractor's works for discussions on testing progress and to give feedback from the sharp end. It was during a meeting at Vickers, at Weighbridge, one day during the Suez crisis, that the meeting was interrupted by someone entering and speaking in a low voice to the chairman. He went pale and some of us jumped to the conclusion that a Valiant must have been lost in the previous night attacks on Cairo targets.

He recovered his composure and announced to the meeting that he had just received grave news. He said, "Last night Vickers Valiants of RAF Bomber Command dropped bombs on Cairo airport. Two Vickers Viscounts on the ground were destroyed during the attacks."

Brian Trubshaw and I could not refrain from a burst of laughter at the irony of the situation, this causing the chairman to remark that Vickers could hardly accept that there was any humour in the situation.

[pr00ne]

Navaleye,

Clearly you have never seen a display by the 56 Squadron display guys, I think you'll find it indeed rather aerobatic.

[Samuel]

I'm reminded by the posts on this thread by Milt, Beags, Henry and others, of how fortunate we are to have so much entertaining talent and experience to draw on.:ok:

Keep it up!

I didn't have a lot to do around the Valiant, though I do recall going to the Officers Mess at Eastleigh once to advise the captain of a visiting Valiant that his aircraft was leaving indentations in the tarmac and it might be a good idea to move it as there was nothing to tow it with at Eastleigh!

I was nosy around aircraft you see!

[Milt]

OK Samuel - a bit more then.

More Valiant Adventures from memoirs

February 1957 at Boscombe Down was a busy month with Beverleys and Valiants, autopilot trials for the Beverley and rocket assist take-off trials for the Valiant. On 28 February I took the NBS trials Valiant 373 to Idris in Libya for some bombing trials on the El Adem range. I had with us a big red headed Scottish Flight Sergeant as crew chief. This fellow was known to like a binge now and then. The day before we were to leave Idris, he had a session in the NCO's mess and then decided to go into Tripoli.

Unable to find any suitable transport to Tripoli, which was about 30 miles away he walked into the village at Idris and attempted to take over a truck from one of the locals. This caused so much consternation and yelling that the local constabulary were soon alerted. The crew chief was promptly arrested and thrown into a police cell. Some hours later, after a sleep and now somewhat less inebriated, he realised his predicament and thought it was about time to leave. Feigning illness, he somehow persuaded his jailer to enter his cell, whereupon the hapless fellow found himself rapidly changing places by dint of heavy physical persuasion.

At breakfast the next morning, I learned that our crew chief had the aircraft ready to leave early and could we do that as soon as possible as the local police were demanding, through the base commander, an identification parade of all base personnel. Not wanting to leave my crew chief behind in Libya, I gathered the rest of the flight crew together and we expedited our departure, after getting the nod from the base commander.

The concerned Flight Sergeant had filled our fuel tanks with more fuel than I had planned. On take-off we had an LCN (Load Classification Number) which exceeded the rated strength of the runway at Idris for landings. Soon after take-off, the entrance door seal blew out with a bang. I had a perfectly good excuse for not going back to Idris and instead diverted to the big USAF base at Wheelus Field about 50 miles away.

No one on Wheelus had ever seen a Valiant before, let alone one captained by an Australian. The USAF was able to help with repairs to the door seal, but not before I committed to staying overnight. After a meal in the Officers' Club that evening, we found some one-armed bandits and clubbed together to try our luck. Sqn Ldr Ackerman, the Nav trials officer, was feeding quarters into a machine whilst I had my turn at pulling the handle. A resultant jackpot had piles of money pouring out of the machine on to the floor. This more than covered our personal trip expenses including those for the remainder of an enjoyable evening. Needless to say, the identification parade at Idris had not come up with a culprit so international relations did not suffer unduly.

The airfield at Idris had an avenue of large Eucalyptus trees which had produced a lot of gum tips. I had picked a large bunch which I had secured in the weapons bay. They were a bit droopy by the time we landed at Boscombe and were promptly seized upon by the Customs officer whose job it was to clear us back into England. Imagine trying to explain that the bunch of leaves were not some exotic new drug and were just a bit of nostalgia for an Australian family. He insisted on taking a sample with him and an intention to call someone in Australia House in London. I heard no more of the matter.

[Samuel]

As I mentioned, I didn't have a lot to do with the Valiant, but I was a bit surprised they landed at Eastleigh at which only the touchdown on 09 was concrete, the rest of the runway being hard-packed 'murrum' earth, not dissimilar to some roads in Australia, so you would have been at home there.

When the runway was dry, a Beverley on reverse thrust could disappear in a red cloud of its own making, and when wet that dust became a thin veneer of mud. I once watched a Beverly doing a gentle four-wheel drift!

They used to land Comets also and you could see and hear mud hitting the flaps on landing. Remember, that until the new airport at Embakasi was opened, Eastleigh was Nairobi Airport, and all sorts of long range civil air traffic such as the mighty Constellation landed on what was essentially a dirt strip.

There was little in the way of hardstanding for anything of the weight of a "V", and after the Valiant, all Victors and Vulcans, and eventually 208 Sqn Hunters, went to the new airport. We kept all the visiting Canberras on lone rangers however! Mud and dust didn't seem to worry them too much.