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Lost_luggage34
21st May 2005, 07:57
A hot topic of late - with the speeding/testing PC, speed cameras etc.

Some very interesting and informed views which I have enjoyed reading and taking semblance of.

So, OK induldge me a liitle. Many of you must work odd hours, commute distances and drive on UK roads.

As the thread title suggests ......

My history ;

- I was taught to drive 20 years ago by an ex-Police instructor.
- I own a current copy of the Highway Code and I have read it.
- I consider myself to be a good driver (- don't we all ?).
- I have been banned under UK laws ( not for speeding or drink
driving)

I personally believe that the quality of driving in the UK is so poor, at times, that it is a situation that has gone beyond a postion of redressing.

So, the test has come in line with the EU with the written test etc - That has changed nothing.

Is it because there are too many vehicles on the UK roads that the Police can't police like they did ? (I.e. pull people for 'bad' driving ?)

Is it a simple matter of Police doing other things ?

Are the Police just there to assist us Motorists in case of emergencies now ?

This is neither a 'lack of policing thread' or a 'have a go at the Police thread'

Wingswinger
21st May 2005, 09:00
It's the number of vehicles on the road coupled with - look away now if you are PC - the driving and ownership of vehicles having reached the bottom of the social pile. Years ago driving was largely confined to people with manners and consideration for others. Sadly this is no longer the case.

I observed a typical incident at traffic lights in Oxford yesterday. The vehicle in front of me was trying to move into the right-hand lane. The driver had indicated in good time, started to move across but, due to the traffic in front of him coming to a halt, his car straddled two lanes unable to move until every driver in front of it moved. Meanwhile, up comes a black cab. As the traffic moves, black-cab-man does not wait to let the other vehicle complete its lane-switch. A hooting of horn and flash of lights coupled with a simulated ram and flicking of V-sign is our black-cab man's chosen behaviour.

Cretins like this man need to be taken off the roads permanently.

acbus1
21st May 2005, 10:09
.....the driving and ownership of vehicles having reached the bottom of the social pile.
And in the UK, the thickening (in more ways than one) of the bottom layer of the pile. There are more Neanderthals than I can ever recall.


The problem isn't confined to road manners, though........

There's a deepening trend towards absolutely no manners whatsoever, in all walks of UK life.

Plus, the average IQ of UK citizens has, without doubt, fallen in the last few generations. We're the "thickoes"(sp) of Europe.......that requires a biological alteration/evolution........how can it be?

The solution? More Police presence. More severe punishment and penalties. That needs a decent government before any other element.

Dream on........

M.Mouse
21st May 2005, 10:21
- I consider myself to be a good driver (- don't we all ?).

- I have been banned under UK laws......

Fascinating apparent contradiction.

cosworth211
21st May 2005, 13:11
I think theres a huge difference between a "good" driver and a "safe" driver. A good driver is technically competant and skillful at handling the vehicle, whereas a safe driver doesnt take any risks. A volvo is a "safe" car, a ferrari is a "good" car.

Therefore you can be a good driver, yet be banned for excercising your supperior skills, perhaps through speeding (like our policeman pal ;) )

Back on point I think the driving test should include minimum hours of instruction in a dual control car (sound familiar? ) and motorway driving, which should be included in the test.

The amount of women I know who can happily pootle round town all day safetly, who fall to pieces and become a hazard the second their front right wheel enters an M road is astonishing....

tubthumper
21st May 2005, 13:30
A sound theory, Cossie, except the town where I grew up and learned to drive was over two hours' travel by car from the nearest motorway....

Cornish Jack
21st May 2005, 13:44
Not absolutely certain which 'cretin' wingswinger believes should be taken off the roads.
"The driver had indicated in good time, started to move across but, due to the traffic in front of him coming to a halt, his car straddled two lanes unable to move until every driver in front of it moved. " "in good time"???? "started to move across" etc.???
There appears to be a view, prevalent amongst British so-called drivers, that the initiation of indicators is some sort of legal licence to complete the indicated manoeuvre...... NOT SO!!!
The indicator is just that - an INDICATION to other drivers of a wish and, IF CIRCUMSTANCES ARE FAVOURABLE, an INTENTION to move in the indicated direction. The fact that the quoted 'driver' hadn't taken the traffic conditions in the adjoining lane into consideration before starting to block that lane to traffic ALREADY CORRECTLY POSITIONED is indicative of a level of incompetence which, indeed, suggests that he should be removed and retrained. It won't happen, of course and the real 'cretin' in this incident will continue to 'think ahead' as far as his radiator cap until his excellent driving technique produces yet another "accident":mad:

Jerricho
21st May 2005, 15:10
Just an observation, but stupidity on the road isn't solely contained to your little island. I think I can say this with some authority, a sizeable number of drivers the world over are shite.

Here in Winnipeg the average driver has no ability to judge closing speeds, doesn't use their indicator, drives way too fast on ANY road conditions (you should see them in the snow) and have no problem with drink driving.

In Brisbane, it's considered an insult to be overtaken and people will (quite dangerously) floor it to close any gap that you may be legitimately and safely going for. The concept of "keep left unless overtaking" is totally foreign, and while they know full well how to use a roundabout, it doesn't stop them from trying to travel the whole way round it in the outside lane.

And don't get me started on Californian drivers.........

Davaar
21st May 2005, 16:09
Goodness me! What is the prairie equivalent of a pommie?

Hoping
21st May 2005, 17:02
Wingswinger, don't be so hard on the taxi driver, he didn't hurt anyone, just mouthed off a bit. Maybe he was in a bad mood. If we get to the stage where we can't let off a bit of steam....

And the guy changing lane, ok so he messed up. But again no accident was caused.

There is a certain feeling when you are in a car that you can say and do what you like. Imagine these two in Tesco with shopping trolleys. There wouldn't be any shouting an v signs if one of them got in the way of the other. The taxi driver just got overly excited. The car driver made a little mistake.

If they both need to be removed from the roads then I am 100% sure that all of us also need to be removed.

cessna l plate
21st May 2005, 17:48
Speaking as a professional driver, the answer is very simple really, 5 year re test for everyone, coupled with making the test a lot more representational of driving in the real world.

A good idea would be to seperate the categories, let me explain.
In our world you learn in a little two seater with a big fan at the front. After you pass your test, if you want to fly in bad weather, another test. Night equals another test. Jets involve more testing and so-on. When you pass your driving test, there is then nothing stopping you from getting out of the mini you learnt in and jumping straight away into a ferrari and having it large on the motorway. The aviation equivelent would be passing a skills test in a C-150, and then jumping into a jet provost and setting a round the coast record.

So, on that basis, if you want to drive on the motorway, another test. If you want to drive at night, another test and so-on. More powerful cars like ferraris, another test. I'm sure you get the picture. And just for the record, as far as living 2 hours from a motorway is concerned, please remember that a driving license is a privelege that society bestows upon you after passing the test, it is not now, nor ever has been a "right" to hold a license, merely a privelege. If you want to exercise the privelege of driving on a motorway, you will have no problem travelling for the test.

I'm quite sure that the CAA wont "give" you an IR because the nearest training facility is 2 hours away, so why should the DVLA have to???

ShyTorque
21st May 2005, 18:05
Cessna L plate,

"The aviation equivelent would be passing a skills test in a C-150, and then jumping into a jet provost and setting a round the coast record."

Your post was mainly quite credible - but a round the coast record in a JP - the old slow jet? Haha! Oh dear! :rolleyes:

Krystal n chips
21st May 2005, 18:09
Since you asked--the introduction of German traffic laws--as I recall you were either right or wrong---dead easy really. Also, the Driving "test" seems to be yet another number crunching excerise so how about teaching people to actually drive--and not how to operate the vehicle--which is rather different I think.

Education----ongoing and via the wonderful medium of Television--just like we used to have--remember?--only now with a more hard hitting message. Not just the annual "Don't drink and drive" message to educate people as is seemingly the case now. Sod the PC brigade here-- a few shots of the deceased in an RTA and then the misery inflicted on the relatives should get the message across--not nice and not intended to be. Tell me again --how many die on the UK roads each year ?--and how many people this affects after the event ?

The hard bit. Changing social values and driver perceptions ----no simple answer here of course--and a major contribution to road awareness and safety issues--or rather the lack of.

I drive the length and bredth of the UK in all conditions and at all times of the day and night. With one notable exception, I would actually like to see more Police Traffic Officers on the road.

Compulsory re-testing every 5 years from 40 onwards--not as draconian as it seems--too many have become set in their ways, never read the Highway Code since whenever and are as much a danger to themselves as to others-if you fail--tough--reapply in 12months and after attending a driving course.

After all that, I still think the key is to educate people as to how to drive properly and not leave it "learn by experience"--some never do and never will. This applies to all socio / economic groups by the way. Stupidity is not confined to the sink estates of this green and pleasant land as many seem to think.

And one other point. The removal of cruise control from vehicles---you get in a vehicle, you drive it and you operate it--you don't sit there doing 67mph in the middle lane or outside lane of a dual c/ way thinking how good you are by not speeding--with the mind in neutral and brain in reverse! Sorry, well, no I'm not actually, as despite the perceived advantages of cruise control--I think it's downright dangerous.

zed3
21st May 2005, 18:26
M.Mouse ..... humans make mistakes , one learns from mistakes .

jabberwok
21st May 2005, 19:31
Those of us who survived that is.. :rolleyes:

Jerricho
21st May 2005, 19:37
What is the prairie equivalent of a pommie

:p :p

Wingswinger
21st May 2005, 20:35
Cornish Jack and Hoping,

Re: The Cretin

It's always difficult to get the picture from mere words. The lane-straddler didn't mess up. We were in fairly heavy slow-moving traffic; he was merely the victim of a modern city roadscape with many sets of traffic lights and filter lanes requiring drivers to change lanes in very short distances between sets of lights and/or junctions. He was brought to a halt because someone about six cars in front didn't know where he/she was going (quite understandable in Oxford for anyone driving there for the first time). If anyone should have gesticulated at him it was I - I was being held up by his unintentional blocking of the left lane; so were the drivers behind me. Had black-cab-man prevailed we would have continued to be held up. I think not giving way in circumstances such as that is cretinous behaviour.

patdavies
21st May 2005, 23:57
motorway driving, which should be included in the test.

So you want to put learner drivers onto motorways?

Is this just a ploy to get some of them killed off?

M.Mouse
22nd May 2005, 10:35
humans make mistakes , one learns from mistakes .

Some mistake to get banned!

joe2812
22nd May 2005, 11:24
I'm a new driver (well...legally new, was taught to drive at the age of 12 on a big ol' field belonging to a friend!).

Can't say i'm a good driver... haven't got enough experience, but i'm certainly safe.

As a motorcycle rider i'm good and safe (make way for my ego please..). Difference is I enjoy the bike, where as the car is merely transport.

To make the roads safer get more people on motorcycles and ban teenagers on mopeds.

Also I agree with the recent suggestion (I forget who by) to slightly increase speed limits on motorways... tailgating I believe is a bigger killer than somone 6 or 7 mph over the speed limit.

BigEndBob
22nd May 2005, 11:59
The normal speed on most motorways is 80 to 95 mph, cars still tailgate, increasing the speed limit wouldn't cure that problem.

cosworth211
22nd May 2005, 14:21
"So you want to put learner drivers onto motorways?

Is this just a ploy to get some of them killed off?"

I cannot understand the logic in your answer here, so you would prefer they pass their test and venture for the first time onto motorways on their own, as opposed to being in a dual control car with an experienced instructor???

I think their chances would be better if the first time they entered a motorway environment they did so with an instructor and proper briefing.

I don't think the standards of drivers has dropped, I think the problem is with the increase in traffic and cars increasing in peformance the standard of driver needs to increase proportionately, but hasn't. Sure the theory test has improved knowledge a little bit, but not enough.

cessna l plate
22nd May 2005, 17:36
Okay, so the JP wouldn't make it round the coast in a kind of record time, but I'm sure you understand the analogy.

Learners on motorways?? The answer is no. Pass the standard test first, then a course of instruction followed by another test just for the motorway. You can't do an IMC rating during the initial PPL course can you??

When I say re-testing I mean for everyone, not just the over 40's. I beleive that a consultation document is currently doing the rounds at the DVLA, DSA and VOSA, and this idea has been mentioned, so maybee those in charge aren't as stupid as we all think they are!!

Speed limits should be increased, and not just on motorways either, but across the board. This could never happen until the standard of driving is raised far above where it lies now.

When I am driving, I take a pride in my driving and try to set an example by doing things right. However, for most people, driving is just a chore. A means of getting from A to B and nothing more. It is treated with the same contempt that washing the dishes is, not really wanting to do it, but it must be done. That's why we hear of drivers eating, drinking, talking on the phone and applying make-up etc whilst driving.

Let me spell it out, when you drive to the airfield to take an aircraft up, be it a cessna or a boeing, once you get to the airfield, you have completed the most dangerous part of your entire journey.

It's about time that the powers that be start cracking down on bad driving. But the one that really boils my blood is the arrogant to$$er that cuts you up or whatever else he or she does, and when you blast the horn they give a load of abuse back. Accept that you have done something wrong, someone has told you about it and apologise. All that attitude creates is road rage!!

Lets face up to reality. I can wipe out more people with my car in one accident than a pilot of a small regional jet. A double decker bus holds 90 odd passengers, a quick cut up from me and hey presto the bus on its side and carnage is all around. I'm sure I'll be corrected, but doesn't the Embraer only hold about 40-50 pax??

Krystal n chips
22nd May 2005, 18:34
The area of learner drivers on Motorways is a difficult one to address--M'Way training, should, in an ideal world, be a pre-requiste---the major problem of course being that many people do not have easy access to a M'Way---however, if it was made madatory that ALL divers who had recently passed the test displayed a "P" sticker for 12 months---or similar to warn others--plus a detailed segment of the driving course was given over to M'way awareness--this might just work. Bit like going solo really--all the training in the world is fine--but at some point you have to do it on your own.


Cessna L plate---er, sorry mate, think you got one bit wrong here. "Setting a good example" is fine--blasting the horn every time you get cut up is not now is it ?--try a little defensive driving--just swear at the t3t in private--and keep control of the vehicle.

Bally Heck
23rd May 2005, 00:26
I take a certain amount of pride in being, possibly the only living male in the world who is, and will admit to being a "crap driver".

I use my car to go to work. It bores me fartless. Pay no attention to anything but the radio. Rather be driven. But chauffeurs are so expensive.

I am however, rather nicely hung:E

Lost_luggage34
23rd May 2005, 00:56
Yes M.Mouse it was an extremely bad mistake and a total lack of judgement at the time - a non moving Road Traffic Offence.

I took the penalty on the chin.

Did I learn from it ? Oh yes, massively - I chose to be re-educated for which I paid money for. I also was made far more aware of the law, the Road Traffic Act, how Road Traffic legistation works, how the Police deal with motoring matters etc.

I.e. I was receptive to being re-educated and to learn from my experience. That, I think, makes me a little better of a motorist than most - perhaps not ?

You have your opinion, I have mine. As I stated in my starting thread, I have a current copy of the Highway Code and have read it.

You and others (some here know the details) don't know the story. It was, perhaps a questionable judgement at the time - that is from several lawyers. I repeat, I was not knocking the law or the Police.

If you would like the details I will happily provide them to you or anyone else who would like to know via PM. I think it would be inappropriate to put those details on a public forum.

To offer the details is not because I feel unfairly dealt with by the system. I think the Police who dealt with the matter at the time were highly professional.

My willingness to offer the details via my experience, is simply to prevent someone quite innocently putting themself in a similar situation.

I.e. I am a great believer in re-education - as I stated I learnt to drive 20 years ago. Driving standards have changed, road conditions in the UK have changed.

I would like to see retesting every 5 years, I would like to see extra tests based on the type of vehicle, night driving as has been suggested above - I thank those who have contributed with such basicaly sensible suggestions.

By starting the thread it was to poll opinions of some intelligent individuals who drive much more complex machinery than a car.

Still today, as was the case 20 years ago, and despite the changes to be more EU compliant, the UK driving test as a one off at the age 17, simply does not prepare any driver for current conditions in the UK.

16 blades
23rd May 2005, 01:20
Wingswinger, don't be so hard on the taxi driver, he didn't hurt anyone, just mouthed off a bit. Maybe he was in a bad mood. If we get to the stage where we can't let off a bit of steam....

And the guy changing lane, ok so he messed up. But again no accident was caused.

Hoping, it is precisely these kinds of 'laissez-faire' attitudes you exude that are responsible for the decline in respect in society in general nowadays - after all, people's behaviour on the roads is simply a reflection of overall attitudes currently infecting our society like a disease.

We need to curtail or even abolish 'dumb' automated speed enforcement, and move back towards Traffic Police on the roads - with the discretion to deal with offences in a fair and proportional manner. And they need to crack down HARD on displays of inconsiderate or discourteous driving - perhaps just by pulling people over, giving them a bollocking, and letting them on their way in minor incidents, but repeat or downright dangerous offenders need to be dealt with severely. And to put paid to allegations of revenue raising and reinforce the 'road saftey' message once and for all - ABOLISH fines for fixed penalty offences, and introduce a sliding scale of points, according to the seriousness of the offence. An example:

Excess Speed (outside built up area)
up to 5 mph over - 2 points
up to 10 mph - 3 points
over 10 mph - 4 points + fine (summons only)

Excess Speed (within built up area)
up to 5 mph over - 4 points
up to 10 mph over - 6 points + fine (summons only)
over 10 mph over - 8 points + fine (summons only)

Excess Speed (motorway)
up to 10 mph over - 2 points
up to 20 mph over - 3 points
over 20 mph over - 4 points + fine (summons only)

Excess Speed (Protected Areas) - such as near a school during throwing out time
up to 5 mph over - 6 points
over 5 mph over - 8 points + hefty fine / ban (summons only)

[i]Grossly Excess Speed - a new offence to catch the real idiots like the copper taking the new toy out for a wazz.
Compulsory ban and extended re-test

Just a suggestion. The main thrust here is in acknowledging that 10 mph over the limit on a motorway, for example, is nowhere near as dangerous as driving slightly too fast past a school at kicking out time. Also that fines can only be issued by way of summons and court appearance, not by civvy 'partnerships' handing out FPNs like gas bills for financial gain.

16B

paulc
23rd May 2005, 07:50
remove cruise control from cars - the opportunities to use it in the UK are very limited and its use does allow the mind to wander or if tired fall asleep at the wheel - same goes for automatics unless there is a very good reason. How many accidents have been caused by people foot slipping in an auto - quite a few (my dad included)

teach motorway driving as part of the test or not allow new drivers on motorways until say 1 year after passing. This would give some experiance of driving generally before progressing to the next level with more privilages.

Include skid pan training as part of the test.

enforce the mobile phone ban as there are still far too many people on the phone when driving.

Limit the engine size / power of cars that new drivers can have as per motorbike tests. Have another test to show that they can handle the power.

Make the central reservation barriers much taller + solid so as to eliminate 'rubber necking' accidents.

eal401
23rd May 2005, 07:53
There appears to be a view, prevalent amongst British so-called drivers, that the initiation of indicators is some sort of legal licence to complete the indicated manoeuvre...... NOT SO!!!
If you believe your quote, you need to talk to some qualified driving instructors, because your statement is wrong! There are circumstances, usually in slow moving traffic, where having indicated, you may move into a developing space, this is something advanced drivers are taught! Of course, there are times where you can't do this and as soon as lorry drivers are taught this, motorways will start getting a little safer.

In terms of improving road safety, there is one big requirement needed. That is for Road Safety Partnerships to move away from the "only speed over the limit cause accidents" attitude that they continue to mis-inform the public with. This has resulted in drivers believing that so long as they do not break the posted limit, they have taken the only action required to drive safely.

As others have said, more police on the road would be another good start.

Speed enforcement that really does enforce is yet another requirement. Lancashire Road Safety Partnership repeatedly throws out the incorrect belief that mobile units prevent speeding. They don't, because the very same partnership hides such cameras very carefully out of the view of drivers. This therefore permits the crime to be committed, it'd be like the police turning up at a burglary, allowing the burglar to finish what he is doing and then arrest him two weeks later. Mobile cameras and GATSOs are reactive measures, plus the latter only enforces speed for a few hundred yards at most.

Removing the fine from speeding offences but INCREASING the points? At least then the claim of "revenue raising" would be removed, plus I would bet money on mobile sites changing dramatically! I don't know how the fines would be funded, that is another debate.

Better training on motorway driving is vital, this does not necessarily need learners to go on the road, but perhaps Pass Plus should be made compulsory. Lorry drivers should be taught that if they want to got 0.01mph faster than the lorry in front then maybe they should slow down a bit instead. This would take a lot of their fun out of their driving, pulling out on cars and causing congestion seems to be a national sport amongst this group.

The same issue on overtaking could also be applied to some car drivers.

If you are not in the inside lane, either go there or overtake what is there.

I could go on, there is a host of road safety measures that are happily ignored by those who should know better.

Scumbag O'Riley
23rd May 2005, 07:56
Yeh, too many cars on the roads nowadays. Love watching the old TV shows, even in the 70s (Sweeney era) the roads in London were deserted. Me parents tell me that back in the 50's they could watch the start of the Boat Race at Putney Bridge, jump in the old jalopey and tootle off to Chiswick. Park up and be at Chiswick Bridge in time to see the finish.

Grainger
23rd May 2005, 08:05
Sorry eal that's a load of Dingo's kidneys.

Indicators are there solely to give information. They are not there to ask for permission to do your maneouvre and their use absolutely does not give you the right to pull out in front of another vehicle.

Now having received the information about another driver's intentions, it may be good practice to make room out of courtesy, or for safety reasons - but there is no way that using indicators can place an obligation on another driver to do so.

henry crun
23rd May 2005, 08:19
paulc: Quote "Include skid pan training as part of the test."

How many skid pans do you anticipate will have to be constructed throughout the UK ?
Where will the authorities, who will run these skid pans, find the staff to man them ?

eal401
23rd May 2005, 08:51
Sorry eal that's a load of Dingo's kidneys.
So the qualified driving instructor doing part of a road safety course quoting a method used by advanced drivers is wrong and you know better?

O-k-a-y....

ATNotts
23rd May 2005, 09:03
What do I want?

1. Raise the legal driving age to at least 18 - preferably 21.

2. Restriction on the power of vehicles that young (probationary) drivers can drive for two years after passing their test.

3. Mandatory re-testing every 3 years.

4. Test to include motorway driving, or a separate test for motorway driving.

5. Reduction in the alcohol limit to come into line with most European countries - which is pretty close to nothing at all.

6. Drug testing of motorists stopped for "routine checks".

Young, immature drivers are probably the chief cause of needless "accidents" - trees and walls jumping out on speeding drivers late at night on Friday and Saturday especially. Alcohol and drugs are another major cause.

That'll do for now.

eal401
23rd May 2005, 09:11
I'll add something else. Ban car advertising that brags about top speeds that exceed any legal limits.

My local paper* is guilty of this, they moan about speed cameras (for reasonable reasons usually) but then undermine it all by having a Motor supplement that does this! 0-60 in a few seconds is irrelevant in a 30mph zone!

*Mind you, this is the local paper that had indignant front page stories about a massage parlour that was actually a brothel. The main advertiser for this place was.......the local paper!

3. Mandatory re-testing every 3 years.
Nice idea, but I doubt the resources exist to support it. Plus, I'd probably fail on the reverse parking. :ugh:

Windy Militant
23rd May 2005, 09:27
Too much traffic and a Rat Race mentality is a large part of the problem.
I spend a lot of time in strange towns, er I mean unfamiliar towns. Now thanks to the absolutely useless signage in the UK, I presume that the idiots that design these things are all non drivers. Ive lost count of the places where if you follow the route indicated by the signs you end up changing lane several times in a short distance and when you get to the end you find you could have stayed in the same lane all along and you wouldnt be in the wrong lane which you now cant get out of.
Now the problem is that the locals all know about the lane switch and position themselves accordingly. So when you try to move into the lane you need to be in to get to your destination the locals think your trying to pull a fast one and wont let you in. Theres some strange territorial thing happens to people when they get behind the wheel.
The Southbound M6 /M5 interchange is a wonderful example of this, especially on a Friday afternoon. If people behaved sensibly and allowed vehicles to join in turn wed all get home hours earlier but no they close ranks resulting in frustration and accidents.
This lack of thought is also evident in the number of people who reverse onto main roads and blast across roundabouts with limited sightlines with no hope of stopping if someone who has right of way appears in front of them, the piles of broken glass and plastic are evidence of the result of this behaviour.
It would appear that the callous selfishness that pervades in much of our society will become more and more apparent in the way people drive.
One last thought, the worst cases of aggressive driving Ive seen over the years have been by people in new model quality cars. The so called lower orders seem to be mostly unaware rather than actively belligerent, however this can be just as lethal in the end.
Take care out there!

M.Mouse
23rd May 2005, 10:15
Lost_luggage34

Thank you for your detailed post. I am guilty of assuming that you had been banned for a moving traffic offence i.e. speeding or dirving while under the influence.

I withdraw my implied criticism and cannot argue with the rest of the contents of your post.


To continue the thread....

I also own, and occasionally read, the current edition of the Highway Code. Funny thing is I was stopped when I was 17 for 'overtaking at or near a road junction'. The policeman concerned's opening gambit was 'What does the Highway Code say about overtaking at or near a road junction'! Made me take note of its contents ever since!

I also hold both a PCV (formerly PSV) and a GCV (formerly HGV) licence. There is one very significant difference between the majority of car drivers and those who drive large commercial vehicles. Drivers of large commercial vehicles have to read the road far ahead because they cannot stop quickly compared to a car. Similarly how many car drivers look to see if the junction they wish to turn into is clear for them to turn into before manouevring into a position preventing anybody from moving should there exit path be obstructed?

Somebody mentioned retesting being too expensive. So what? The cost would be a small price to pay to reduce the carnage we see daily and possibly also reduce the number of drivers on the road.

I have been driving for 34 years I was prosecuted for speeding when I was 18 years old and have been stopped and cautioned occasionally since. I find now though that, despite taking considerable notice of speed limits in urban areas, I am continually paying less attention to the road and more on looking out for cameras paranoid that a moments inattention will earn me a fine and points. Not helped by the quite ludicrous and unnecessary lowering of limits to stupid levels, anybody noticed the 20 mph limit across Tower Bridge in London with SPECS camera enforcement?

One final point, I believe that so much of the inconsiderate and aggressive behaviour seen on the roads today is symptomatic of the behaviour we witness daily in other walks of life.

Grainger
23rd May 2005, 10:17
eal: well your "qualified driving instructor" appears to be claiming that the use of indicators confers upon a vehicle a right of way that it would otherwise not be entitled to.

Have I misunderstood that ?

If that's not what you meant I'll withdraw the comment. Otherwise, it stands. Fetid ones, at that.

RAC/OPS
23rd May 2005, 10:44
eal wrote:

"There are circumstances, usually in slow moving traffic, where having indicated, you may move into a developing space, this is something advanced drivers are taught! Of course, there are times where you can't do this"

I don't interpret eal's meaning this as having right of way. I understand it to mean that you are reading the situation - a developing space - and notifying your intention accordingly and if safe, are going to take advantage of that space.

eal401
23rd May 2005, 11:10
RAC/OPS has got it in one. The key words (which perhaps I should have included) being "if safe."

Grainger
23rd May 2005, 11:38
Fair enough: because your comments were offered as contradiction of Cornish Jack's statement: . . . the initiation of indicators is some sort of legal licence to complete the indicated manoeuvre...... NOT SO!!! they seemed to indicate (ahem..) a stronger position.

CJ was quite correct: Highway code page 22 - "the rules . . . do not give you the right of way under any circumstance"

Lost_luggage34
27th May 2005, 04:48
Gentlemen/Ladies,

I feel that you should re-read your copies of the Highway Code.

You do all have a current copy before you pontificate ?

The rules of the road in the UK are clearly stated therin.

LL34

Groundbased
27th May 2005, 08:19
Two quick points here.

1. There definitely needs to be additional training/experience for new drivers on motorway driving. Whether this is as part of the test or becomes a supplemental test is debatable. I have recently moved and now have to use the M5 as part of the daily commute. The lane discipline in use on that road is nothing short of appalling. People cruising along in the middle lane when the nearside lane is empty for as far as the eye can see are creating most of the congestion. I try to see what these people are thinking but I cannot get into the mindset.

2. I have long argued that the police should be allowed to get back to proper traffic policing, i.e. stopping people and pointing out the error of their ways whilst also determining roadworthiness of vehicles. Some of the vehicles I see on the roads cannot possibly have an MOT. Yesterday the BBC ran a story on the news about how certain police forces conducted fewer breath tests than others yet caught more drink drivers. The implication was they were more efficient at doing the job. I look at that in another way, in that where people know they are likely to be tested they areless likely to drink and drive. Therefore, to me, a high number of tests with a low number of convictions equals a greater degree of success.

Lost_luggage34
27th May 2005, 21:22
Groundbased makes an excellent contribution.

Empathise with your post 100%.

In fact you made the point far better than I did in starting the thread !

Nice to know that at least there are some drivers out there with a respect for Road Safety.

cosworth211
28th May 2005, 01:22
I have given up with the d**kheads in the middle lane myself. I have learnt the art of cruising at my own speed in the inside lane. Its a free world! Thanks to the idiocy out there its the fast lane reinvented!

To those who oppose training in motorway skills, complaining that its an equiv of putting PPL students in IMC, again what an illogical arguement, who'd rather put them into IMC on their own for the first time?? Weird

And who should pay for this motorway training? The student of course! After all its his/her and his/her passengers that lives are at far less risk by the increased training. PPL's arent subsidised. Cost should never rule over safety.

And hows about this, an NPPL driving license equiv? Where you cant enter motorways unless appropriate training is undertaken? Is that not logic reborn?