The new easyjet rosters

[Dr Faustus]

Just a few thoughts on the new easyjet roster for anyone interested.

5 on 4 off 5 on 2 off .

We now have less protection than offered under CAP371 so this roster pattern will not alleviate fatigue. What I find fatiguing is starting early and doing a long 4 sector day. Yes I know this is all part of low cost flying but doing this for 3 days on the trot is quite enough - but now thanks to BALPA we do this for 5 days on the trot. The main problem is that this sort of flying is knackering enough on day 1 never mind day 3 or 4.

A recent BALPA newsletter said " Approximately two years ago we were told by you, the members, that the current work practice of six days on and three days off with flexi-days was unacceptable." Well if the CC had bothered to listen, many members were saying that 6 and 3 would be fatiguing, before this was even implemented.

So this new system is much better than previous, and I know that many like the new roster but there is still a long way to go before we have a roster which delivers true lifestyle improvements.

[Wizofoz]

doing this for 3 days on the trot is quite enough

Personaly, I always find the first early the hardest, then become at least partially acclimatised. Under the previous system you'd do your 3 earlies, then 3 lates, three off, then start all over again, so you'd do a "First early" every nine days.

Now, after that dreaded alarm on the first day, you don't do a "first early" for another 17 days.

Personaly I am finding the new system less fatiguing, and am enjoying having regual four day breaks.

[RAT 5]

Still c#@p when other shift workers in the industry do 4 On 4 Off. With that pattern you could still do 900 hours pa, no problem. It's an attitude problem, not a logistical one. Just think; 2 earlies, a full nights sleep, 2 lates, 4 days off. The first of the 4 days could be infringed by a late arrival, but not effect the legality of 2 days off in 7. The first of the earlies could be a 'before 0600' report, and this too would not breach the legality of 2 days off in 7. Even if the last 'late' over ran 2400, you would still have 3 local nights in the 4 rostered days off, guaranteed, even if the first early was before 0600. There would be a full nights sleep in the middle of the roster block. No fatigue, a family or other social life, high morale, no-one leaving etc etc. It would be the best roster in the short-haul world AND you could still do 900 hours.

To quell the doubters, look at the math.

365 days pa - 35 days holidays = 330

roster 4/4/4 = 8 day roster periods = 41 pa.

Sims & refreshers etc take up 8 days = 2 roster periods.

39 x 4 days for flying duties & SBY's. = 156 days.

Average flying day 6.45 = 133 days = 900 hours.

23 days or 2 per month SBY.

WINS:
No fatigue, life style acceptable, flexibility for the company on the last & first day of a block, no-one quits, good career, training costs reduced, no shortage of pilots (& cabin staff) wanting to join, improved morale, overall company saves money hand over fist.

LOSSES:
None I can think of.

It just needs the will to succeed and an efficient roster scheme. I do not accept that crews should have an anti-social life style just because someone can not be bothered to create a decent efficient roster pattern. That is a complete joke and unacceptable in 21st century, especially in EU. The comparison of flight crews working patterns to other professions, even within the same airline, is now a cause for real serious concern; AND IT IS ALL SO UNNECESSARY!

Sadly this topic has been thrashed to death on Prune for 2 years. It is sad that a supposed 'bench mark company' is still living in the dark ages. I do wish they would do what they advertise in their philosophy.

[rubik101]

Exactly! It's been thrashed to death for two years here and at BALPA and indeed within easyjet so why are we going over it all again? You can never please all the people all of the time but if most of the people are pleased most of the time, then enough said, I say.

[orangetree]

Yeah, better complaining to the CAA. Then maybe a year down the line, they'll threaten to withdraw the FTL variation unless Rostering wise up (oops, dreamin again due to multiple early hyper fatigue). Funny how most of the 2 sector early lines disappeared with the advent of this farce.:hmm:

[Scottie]

Gee, I'm no orange apologist but I think 5/2/5/4 is great.

Well done to BALPA :)

[RAT 5]

At this time when the Working Time Directive is in the news, le'ts reflect on something.
Over 12 years ago, when this process started, public transport was given a FEW years to construct a plan to comply with the EU commission's directive. In the meantime companies were supposed to introduce a compensation plan for the employees until more lasting measures could be introduced.
Nothing has ever been done. The CAA's of Europe keep their eyes stubbornly shut; the MP's who have been alerted turn a blind eye; the commision who made the declaration have done nothjing to ensure its implementation, therebye identifying themselves as very weak and able to be ignored, and finally the unioins have done diddly squat.
Talking to the CAA's, as Orangetree suggests, has produced zero over the past 25 years. What about a mass resignation from the unions in each country. I guarantee that will wake up some highly relevant people and it will surely hit the newspapers without damaging any airline's balance sheet. Thus a public debate would be initiated.
I find it bizzare that ground based shift workers within the industry can do their 4 x 12 hour shifts over 8 days to average a 42 hour week, with what are reasonably stable sleep patterns and with rest periods avalaible during their shifts; yet those of us at the sharp end of safety & efficiency & can work upto 55 hours per week, and regularly do, with mostly unstable sleep patterns. There are not many jobs whereby you work for 12 hours continuous without a rest away from your work station. And yet it is recognised that we are a major contributer to incidents/accidents.
Even with the 5/4/5/2 system quoted, if the average working day is 10 hours, then over 16 days the average week is 44 hours.

The use of CAP 371 limits was always intended to keep the show on the road due to unforseen problems. It was never intended that crews should work, regularly, 13 hour days & 50 hour weeks. Yet for years this has been the norm with no opposition from anyone including the very unions to whom many pay substantial subs. Complaints to CAA's have fallen on deaf ears. They have allowed, knowingly, their rules & guidelines to be abused. The EU commmision has allowed its directives to be ignored. Incredible.

So why not a mass resignation from the very unions who have let down the industry? Like I said, it will certainly stir up a hornets' nest without damaging the industry or individual airlines.

Most airline CEO's live in a time capsule locked into the middle ages. They operate like feudal barons, each one applying for the job of Mayor of Tollpuddle.

[Flying Fiona]

To me that roster is one of the worst in the industry. Take a look at the average shift worker in the UK. 4 on 4 off it is as simple as that. First week of earlies and second week of lates followed by lates again, then earlies and so on.

I have been on that shift for the past 5 years and it works. Funny that isn't it? It sounds to me you need to change your CC.

If you couple that shift with an optional time and a half payment for working a day off everybody wins. You guys must be like the walking dead and besides that you have to question yourself if you really want a life stye that easy are dishing out. I for one would protest with my feet. Good luck anyway.

[Colonel Klink]

Flying Fiona and others,

One of the biggest wins was the huge reduction in duty hours, now down to 1880 and significantly better than the previous under Cap 371.
Obviously, if 4 on 4 off was available we would have got it, because we certainly tried to get it. We believe, that it will become available in time but easyJet currently have a minimum days off policy to cover rostering and crewing stuff ups and they need to have as many available days as possible.
Most pilots I talk to, believe the 5/2/5/4 is less fatiguing, as it should be bearing in mind it had to be modelled with scientific evidence in order for the CAA to agree the alleviation in the first place.
Life at easyJet will always be fatiguing as the days are long and they try to squeeze as much out of the pilots as possible but this system does produce more days off and the 6/3 was unworkable even in the short term. Needless to say, easyJet management had to be dragged to the table kicking and screaming, but now have disciovered they can save money as well with less crew, so are smiling again...............!!!!:O

[Maude Charlee]

I don't know what shift workers in ground handling or other industries you dreamers are talking about, but after 12 years in various industries doing shift work I've rarely come across anyone doing nice little 4 on 4 off patterns. In my previous employment, I worked 6 on 1 off, and each one a 12 hour shift. Currently I work for a UK ground handler, with a pattern of 5 out of 7 worked. No guarantee of successive days off, or any maximum number of days worked between days off, nor any maximum working day. Shift patterns have no pattern - a night shift can be followed by a 1500 start the very same day after finishing at 0700, and earlies (0500) routinely follow lates (2330).

Personally, I cannot wait to start with my first airline position in a couple of months. At least from then on I get paid a reasonable wage in relation to what I am used to, I get a month's notice of my rosters, and blocks of time off, with a maximum number of days on shift in between. Absolute bliss.

I appreciate things ought to be better, but some of you clearly haven't had a hard paper round in life. ;)

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Rat 5
You still keep getting it wrong over shift workers rosters. Its 5 on 3 off. Thats normally 0700-1900 for 2 days then 1900-0700 for 2 days, with the final shift ending at 0700 on day 5 - thats not a day off in my view.
On the other hand those that do 8 hr shifts do six on 2 off or similar.
I dont disagree your 4 on 4 off is a great idea but i also counter that you get paid a lot of dosh and would any airline manager get a nice 4 on 4 off roster?


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[TRon]

I worked 4 on 4 off shift work and that was 12 hour shifts nights and days. I hated it.

What we have to remember is quite a few of our days are not 12 hours long and our work is far more variable than 4 on 4 off shift work which is a steady stream of work, when the whistle goes you can go a la Fred Flintsone!

Whilst I can see its benefits for us, I just cant se ehow it would work. There needs to be a compromise and this is what I feel 5/2/5/4 is and I must say for me it is working.

I know the leave issue is far from ideal but we are not what one could call a 'mature' airline and I know it is an area that needs addressing as it is a subject very close to many of our hearts.

The way I see it I finish most of the time on a 2 sector at the end of my 5 earlies. That means I can go out that night and for the next 2 nights if I choose as I start on a 'late' on the next 5. Then I get 4 days off as opposed to three on the previous roster. All in all in each block of 5 I can go out for 3 days if I choose. I find it far more social and most of the captains I fly with are saying they are seeing their children a lot more..I am seeing a lot more of the golf course!!

I dont think any companies rosters are perfect, this is far from it, but I feel that it is a great compromise which is what life is all about and I am less tired than I was. I would not want random rostering for sure...and lets not forget it beats clock watching in an office with grey skies all day eh?

[Right Way Up]

Flying Fiona,
<<To me that roster is one of the worst in the industry>>
Believe me there is much worse out there.

[Stu Bigzorst]

Oddly, and I seriously dislike earlies, I have found the pattern most tiring during lates. 5 earlies tend to be shorter days. But 5 11-hour lates (min rest, 100 hour months) can cause me to get that blurred, jaded, don't care feeling on my fourth or fifth late.

Still prefer it to 6/3 though, and I don't mind losing one block of leave and having it spread around the year. We still do the same amount of work (900 hours) whatever pattern and 5254 does stop shift change mid-week.

I would just like someone, somewhere to say "thanks" sometime, especially after a 2.5 hours into discretion, or a ridiculous (but just legal) roster change. Would make all the difference.

[JT8]

I find it far more social and most of the captains I fly with are saying they are seeing their children a lot more

Most Captains I fly with say the opposite.

Certain bases seem to be better set up for the new rosters in terms of their routes. I'm finding I have no life until the 4 day break :ugh:

[10002level]

For those which are disagreeable with the 5/2/5/4 roster pattern, I believe the option remains to have a random roster.

[RAT 5]

Mr A from P,

What a pleasure to hear from you again after such a long while; I really do not want to get bogged down in this debate again, after so many years. I'm on the outside now but have always wished to imput some experience into this ongoing debate. Sad that it has been dribbling on for so many years with apparent lack of progress.

However, to the point: lots of dosh has absolutely b#@g@r all to do with anything. The rate of pay is for the skill required. If I flew an a/c for a private 9-5 Mon -Fri operator I would expect the same salary for the job. It is an argument going back to B'Cal, when the CEO was asked what % extra he paid crews for anti-social overtime working. He had no idea because it was not in the calculations. That is true for every airline, but not for Ford.

If you calculate the hours a flight crew operates outside those 'social hours', and then calculate the overtime % and from that calculate the basic pay, everyone would be horriffied and all crews would resign tomorrow.

Perhaps they would all become plumbers or electricians. Then the anti-social hours would be truely rewarded. However, I do realise that using this calculation, starting from what would be a healthy basic salary, would be unaffordalble for most airlines. That is why the compensation for the anti-social working hours and conditions should be paid in time not money. To give crews only the legal minimum time off is pathetic, purile and unnecessary. Extra time off would not reduce prodcutivity, so where's the beaf? As said many time a full 900 hours + adequate SBY's could & should be achieved in 180-190 days pa. Why then do airlines squeeze 230 duty days out of crews? Totally inefficient & counter productive. The idea that for ej to have their new roster pattern they need to forgo a weeks leave. What a joke, & a true indication of the mental state of the management. Childish jealousy.

The whole rostering issue is created because CAA's guidelines & philosophies are not followed nor policed, and that 99% of airline CEO's, plus some rosterers, hate pilots. Unions nor pilots have not caused the demise of any airline. It is the greed and incompetance of management; time & time again. The major casulaties are the enthusiastic employess of all departments who wish a career in the industry; the same goes for ops staff & engineers as flight crew.

But please, I do not want to reopen the threads that ran & ran for most of 2004. Those people who want to spend their energies posting here, will be beter advised to direct their efforts to the heart of the problem in their own back yard, which includes their relevant CAA.

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

Nothing is perfect but I personally like the new system. You cannot please all the people but it is an improvement on the previous 6-3 system. My own experience is that the 5 earlies are pretty hard going and I have to go to bed for a couple of afternoons during them but maybe that is just me!

[TRon]

It seems to suit more than it annoys from my limited viewpoint. I feel the trick to the 5 earlies is to be ruthless about going to bed early, I mean before 10, and then I am OK. Any later than that and I feel awful and have to sleep in the afternoon which I personally hate...

However, I flew with a guy today who had opted out. I for one, do not care about my days off in december for example, and I get some random rostering anyway 3 weeks worth in the reserve period. His point was that he lets ops know when he wants a particular day off, say for his sons graduation, and if enough notice is given they can roster around him. Under the fixed system, if you have used your GDO's 'tough titty mate' is the usual response which is really very imposing on peoples lives, and why I should imagine, shock horror to the easJet management, sickness is going up and less people are asking for a day off or do a deal.

What I think is the bitter taste in most peoples mouths is the fact we simply cannot bargain with OPS. I go 2 hours into discretion, or do a duty I dont have to, thanks are given at the time (or often not!) but they are unable and un-empowered it seems to give you anything in return, such as days off or trade a contactable you have for a day you want off..My only reason for doing it is in the hope one day my helpfullness will be remembered when I really need it and to be fair to them there are a few in crewing that will actually help if they can and there is not a French ATC strike on at the time!!

There seems to be no one person accountable for some of the horrific crewing cockups we see quite often at easy, but then I doubt it is any different in any airline due to the nature of the beast but the fact that there seems to be no log kept of the help you have given the company over the years says volumes for an airline that is supposed to value it's staff so highly a la the Southwest model and the 'orange' culture. They expect us to be so flexible yet the same is not reciprocated when it comes to our lives...sometimes the job becomes our lives and that really isn't what life is about.

[jetjockey737]

I personally am absolutely knackered! Did my off pattern reserve period got worked to death. Just completed 5 earlies and I am a zombie on my first day off.

I see less of my family than I did before, I havent got a weekend off for a month. Great roster!!!

I must admit that I think I am worn out thanks to my reserve period and I am interested to see how I feel in a month when I have really experienced 5/2/5/4...but I know that in a feww months time I have got that dreaded period again.

I also got none of the leave I requested and none of the GDO's I requested. They say the leave problems will be sorted by next year, I really hope they do or there will an orange mutiny me thinks!

[Speedtape]

Personally, I cannot wait to start with my first airline position in a couple of months. At least from then on I get paid a reasonable wage in relation to what I am used to, I get a month's notice of my rosters, and blocks of time off, with a maximum number of days on shift in between. Absolute bliss.

Presumably, the rest of us are in the position we are in because of diamonds like you accepting cr@p just to get your foot in the door:yuk: :yuk:

[RAT 5]

TRon,
I empathise with your thoughts on what life should not be about. I've been through the horrors of earlies & lates. It's a helluva way to earn 2.5 days off.
During the earlies, as said, you go to bed at 22.00 telling the kids and neighbours to be quiet, and the wife to sleep in the spare room. Not much of a family evening and an irritated family to boot. How do you take a quiet shower at 0430; thus upsetting them again.
5 lates and you slink into bed at 0100 leaving a note not to be disturbed before 10.00. No such luck as family and world wake up at 0700. You try to force a further 3 hours if possible.
That's another 5 evenings of no family life, and at the end of 5 lates I realised I'd done nothing but work & sleep and worn only my uniform. It was the most unbalanced life style ever designed.

It is sold completely on the basis on stability and predictable days off; but just how much can you do, on your own, with 2 days off mid-week and weekends seperated by long stretches? There has to be a better way. It does exist in some airlines, so why don't management and crew reps go and see how they do it. Why try and re-invent the wheel?\

A few years ago, in the LOG, there was an excellent letter written about lousy rosters. It was sent in by the wife of a pilot, and explained perfectly the effect of lousy rosters. Perhaps, instead of being selfish and saying that this roster is perfect but is not as bad as that one; or that this roster is fine because I can predict my precious days off; why not ask your families what they really think of your lifestyle. It just may make you think about it differently when you hear an honest view from those close to you who have to live their lives inside your schedule.

[Banzai Eagle]

Tron
Not sure trading days off for use of discretion is viewed positvely by most Airlines and the CAA. Thats holding a gun to the Airlines head. Fair enough if the Company ask you to trade but not discretion.

Rat 5 I guess thats a common shift problem these days, in actual fact its a common 9-5 problem these days given the amount of commuting some folk do, the rush hour used to be 0700 its now 0600.

Who are these airlines your talking about anyway?

[Agaricus bisporus]

And lest people forget, the price paid to achieve this blinding piece of "lifestyle enhancement" was the loss of TEN DAYS annual leave, ONE WHOLE THIRD of the leave entitlement. And this concurrent with a c.20% reduction in max working hours due to new EU law. A 20% reduction over 52 weeks sounds like several weeks extra leave to me, but that is not the way arithmetic works in the world of orange flavoured smoke and mirrors.

Some lifestyle enhancement!!! You try to figure it out...I can't.

[You Gimboid]

I'm with Agaricus.

5/4/5/2 has created an airline of haves and have nots. Airbus bases get the life of Riley. Boeing pilots are still being flogged to death trying to shore up the Airbus introduction within the limits imposed by the new roster pattern.

The net result for me is a very similar life to RAT 5. My advice is opt out or get out.

[orangetree]

I can assure you Gimboid that plenty of bus pilots do not have a 'life or Riley'. There are plenty of maxed out rosters in busland too. Plenty of roster disruption and plenty of max duty 4 sector earlies to play with and time not spent flying is usually spent in a taxi.

[Banzai Eagle]

Rat 5

Is Britannia one of those Airlines your talking about??, if you look at the thread on this same site then a Pilot has come up with a roster which looks almost part time!!

[RAT 5]

B.E.
I'm now on my 10th airline in a 5th country. BY was on the list many many moons ago in the days of random rostering.

My beef is with the nitwits who do NOT roster productivity but roster minimum time off. It is pathetic. In various airlines who I've been with, and left for this very reason, I've challenged the rosterer and M.D to work their duties but to my roster. In all cases they have refused, but claimed I had no case for complaint as the roster was legal; end of discussion. With block heads like that there is only one solution. Quit or take matters into your own hands. I shall not be surprised if the sickness rates go through the roof. The shortage of pilots is looming large. Everyone is expanding and the boot is about to be on the other foot.

It is all such an unnecessary conflict, but it will happen. I wish Guy Fawkes was around and so he could stash his cache underneath that hidden airline CEO production college. Somewhere is this hidden centre which churns out the most antiquated obnoxiuos man managers on earth, who then employ their clones as head rosterers. People who think they can make a fast buck and have lots of glory in a short time. To hell with the career minded crews who trust in their dreams. There is not one who has delivered on their promises. I wouldn't buy a second hand bicycle from any of 'em. But sadly they have been the destroyer of many a good career, and never their own. And this stems from the CEO's of major carriers right down the food chain. It is a shocking indicment of the industry and would be considerd scandalous elsewhere. The mystery is how they've got away with it for so long. Can the public be so ignorant? And can the vocational crews be so gullible?

[Right Way Up]

RAT 5
<<The shortage of pilots is looming large>>
If I had a pound for everytime I have heard that argument I would be a very very very rich man..... I have said it myself. Unfortunately every time it gets close to a sustained pilot shortage, some nutter or group of nutters (US presidents not excluded) foils our masterplan to make our profession a wanted one. The fact that experienced jet rated ATPLs are still paying for specific type ratings to join a company says it all!

[RAT 5]

R.W.U.

<<The shortage of pilots is looming large>>

Maybe, just maybe, this time they are right. On another thread, concerning ej cancelling B737 courses, there is talk from the inside about them sub-chartering a/c due to crew shortage, and unbelievably this includes cabin crew as well. If that isn't a total management screw up then I wait to hear what is. Of course, due to the crew shortage, everyone else will work to the max. However, the sub-charters caused an extra cost and therefore a reduction in profits, and thus any crew benefits will need to be cropped as well.
And this sub-charter fiasco is not an orange phenominum; the virus migrated across to the blue & yellow harp brigade as well.

If there really does exist true market competition, then the next few months will be very interesting. Both outfits have massive a/c orders and thus crew recruitment demands. I cannot see how they can both succeed, but the choice of carrots they will have to dangle will be a wonder. As one led the downward path in new joiners' T's & C's, I wonder which will be the first to start to raise them again.

And this shortage, especially captains, makes no mention of all the other reputable players in the market place. The choice should be vast. Interesting times ahead.

[10002level]

Is it true that in excess of 100 cabin crew resigned on the 1st June?

[Damienmk]

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Personally, I cannot wait to start with my first airline position in a couple of months. At least from then on I get paid a reasonable wage in relation to what I am used to, I get a month's notice of my rosters, and blocks of time off, with a maximum number of days on shift in between. Absolute bliss.
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Presumably, the rest of us are in the position we are in because of diamonds like you accepting cr@p just to get your foot in the door

A very interesting comment. I too will soon be one of those diamonds who will have spent the thick end of 60k to get qualified and will be looking to try and earn that money back ASAP.

In my current job (Policeman) I work eight hour shifts, the pattern being seven earlies (6 - 2), two days off, seven lates (2 - 10), three days off, seven nights (10 - 6) two days off and then back onto earlies. There is what was called an additional rest day (ARD) which floats throughout the shift cycle.

As a police officer, certainly a uniform street cop, you rarely get a break. Once you're in work, the radio never stops, and the abuse and grief you have to put up with from management and public alike is unreal.

Trust me, the almost 100% pay rise I will be looking at once employed by an airline, the lack of being shot at, spat at, kicked, punched, stabbed, followed home and having my house set on fire will be a very refreshing change!! And on top of all of that, I'll be working five on two off five on four off!! If that's cr@p, can someone tell me what is good?

[Yarpy]

Damienmk, You will certainly enjoy the culture change from policeman to pilot. Well done by the way.

The point about your shifts is interesting. They are hard graft quite obviously. However . . . compared to airline shifts they are a bit shorter and more predictable.

You will understand the pilot perspective about six months into the job. The work is straightforward. The issues of managing safety in a commercial environment are the ones that will stress you out - particularly in a low cost carrier. They are not to be underestimated.

Your experience of life as a copper will be appreciated by your Captains. You will encounter many challenging operational situations as in your previous job.

Best of luck.

[You Gimboid]

the lack of being shot at, spat at, kicked, punched, stabbed, followed home and having my house set on fire will be a very refreshing change!!

Damienmk obviously not going to work at LPL then!

[Flying Quill]

Yarpy - Managing safety in a commercial environment will stress you out - particularly in a lo-cost airline? It stresses neither me nor my colleagues. Tell me more....

FQ

[Big Tudor]

Just going back to Rat5s' earlier post about 4on 4off. This was done as a paper exercise (by me) at a UK charter outfit a few years ago. Two major problems surfaced; firstly you were always busting the 18-30 hour rest 'issue' (should be avoided) when switching from earlies to lates. Secondly, the average block hours per 28 days was 120-130, not a level the CAA would entertain.
Another example of alternative thinking was tried at A.N. Other UK charter outfit in the 90's. Crew were given the option for mainly earlies, mainly lates or not bothered. At the start most crew opted for mainly earlies, that quickly changed to mainly lates. In the end it became unworkable because of the imbalance between who wanted to work what.

And just on another of Rat5s comments, didn't the unions play a major (if not the major) part in the downfall of Eastern (USA)? :rolleyes:

[Damienmk]

Yarpy,

Many thanks for your words of advice and encouragement, it is appreciated. Your comment about understanding the job once I'm six months into it is very interesting.

Although at this moment in time, it can be argued I don't work in a "business" environment, believe me when I say, words and phrases such as "increased productivity" and 'increased efficiency" are bandied about by Police Managers all the time. For those at the sharp end, safety is also of paramount concern. During a day shift and the early part of a late shift, you're "single" crewed. But I ask you, when are the banks open, more likely to be subject of an armed robbery thus increasing the need for support? Shouldn't officers be double crewed all of the time, like they are at night?

The Police Management prospective is resources need to be available at times of peak demand. This I understand entirely, which means more officers have to be available during evening and night shift periods to cope with the increased calls for service. However, the unpredictable nature of policing means that officers are often left with insufficient support during the day when things can be equally as violent and confrontational.

The reason why I introduced that comparison into this arena is to show that the airline industry is not the only area where those at the sharp end are being pushed harder than ever before. And Managers are continuously trying to find inventive ways of "bending" the rules to increase profit margins. Believe me, I do not think for a minute that I will have entered an environment where there won't be pressure, bullsh!t and occasions where safety, i.e, my safety will have been compromised to make some bean counter look good, much like it was in the police to enable a senior officer to save some money on overtime.

I share the concerns of all pilots where safety and adequate rest and recuperation are concerned. I was heavily involved with the Police Federation and part of a team that was looking at alternative ways of working/shift patterns etc. As always, with any industry, Management have their goals to achieve, and the Staff Associations want what is best for their members.

It would appear from reading this forum, the industry clearly has problems where rostering and crew lifestyle is concerned. I would be interested in knowing more about the "other" safety concerns that exist, whether they are directly affected to rostering or not.

I may appear naive, but, crews need airlines to work, and airlines need crews to operate. Is there no solution that keeps everyone happy? Or am I entering a profession where common sense has even less of an influence than in the police service!!

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[Yarpy]

Damienmk.

Your post struck a chord as I have flown with ex coppers and they were good operators. They are savvy enough to grasp all the issues of commercial flying at an early stage in their careers.

( I have retired early from airline flying by the way; I want time with my young family and got fed up with issues of management and rostering . . .)

You have to appreciate that commercial flying is one of the most tightly regulated professions. Airlines are under huge commercial pressure to survive let alone compete. The friction and pressure in the job will occur when the regulations get pushed to the limit or the airline implies that the crew should 'help the company out'. You will hear similar management speak and you have to ignore it completely once the cockpit door is shut. This goes for any airline. The bean counters think they rule but actually their confidence is misplaced and quite fragile. They don't rule as they cannot possibly understand they real environment you will work in. They might, for example, prefer it if your Captain always loaded minimum fuel. You will understand that you have to load what you think is safe.

Common sense is the overriding influence on a pilot - always. The management 'game' has to be played in name only.

I think you will find one big difference in the work patterns. As a copper you generally don't know when your workload is going to peak. As a pilot (barring emergencies) it is easier to pace yourself for periods of peak activity. You will probably appreciate this aspect of the job.

No you are not naive. Quite the opposite in fact. Cutting through the bull**** to make that critical, life saving, decision is the whole point of the job and why the CAA gave you a licence.

Flying Quill, have a read of the following CAA commissioned Human Factors report by Icon Consulting:

http://www.icon-consulting.com/study_reports/reportv2.pdf


Right, Mrs Yarpy has just given me two cheeky yelling kids to sort out. I am on the early shift so have to go!

[Flying Quill]

Yarpy

I read the first several pages of your recommended report, but I'm afraid I lost respect for it rather quickly. Published in 2000 means it reflects thinking during the '90s, the authors don't appear to be aviation related, and too many unsupported, and quite groundless assumptions are made - eg multinational aircrew degrading safety on language grounds. It's full of reports that were studied years ago; I think we've moved on since then.

I'm not saying you have no grounds to make your comment, Yarpy, I am genuinely interested to hear more about your reasons. I just don't think this report is a good source to support your assertion. And the reason I challenged you was that having worked for a lo-cost airline for several years, I feel no pressure on safety grounds, though others might. In fact, I could argue that my company is a little too obsessive in their safety philosophy.

The only aspect of commercial pressures on safety where you could have a point, is with rostering. And this brings us back to the original topic. Long multi-sector days are repetitive and tiring. Most mistakes could be laid firmly at the door of fatigue. My company has famously sought to improve this problem, and once we have more experience working under the new rostering system, we will be in a better position to comment on its effectiveness.

Damienmk

Don't become sidetracked with stress, pressures, lifestyle issues, and other cultural concerns. Concentrate, rather, on getting through the training and onto line. Then just enjoy for a while!

FQ

[Banzai Eagle]

Yarpy

Predictable shifts in the Police?, not on day to day, nick someone 15 mins from end of beat and see what time you end your shift. And there's no safety card to play if too tired...

[Damienmk]

Guys,

All your comments are interesting and clearly the industry has many strong willed people who have their opinions and aren't afraid to voice them!! What is pleasing though, is that there appears to be a real genuine interest in resolving the issues that affect the industry. Most coppers moan for moaning sake then turn up to work the next day with the same gripe!!

Good luck in your endevours to try and get a shift pattern that suits all. Hopefully in the not to distant future, I'll be joining you in trying to acheive that goal!!

[Yarpy]

I suppose the object of a dry, dusty, academic report is to support the policy makers in their decisions. That is, if they ever bother to make any. The Icon Consulting report interests me as I met one of the authors. The balance of the report was written from field studies. I.e. interviews with pilots. It was set against a climate of changing economic conditions. The CAA presumably wanted to assess the impact of the market on the guys in the cockpit.

Of course, since the report was written we have had 9/11 and things have tightened up considerably.

What the report author said to me off the record was far more pithy than report itself. It really is worth a good read. Like aviation itself the devil is in the detail.

There are, I believe, over 50 low cost carriers round Europe. Flying Quill, it is good to hear that you feel unpressured on safety grounds. I worked for several UK airlines. Some might have had a 'just' operational culture. Some most definitely did not and regularly lent on pilots to cut corners. I was offered a LHS with a lo co but turned it down. Friends who work in that sector have different stories to tell quite frankly.

The stress issue is interesting. I can recall three colleagues who lost their medical through stress. One never flew again, one was demoted to the RHS and another returned to flying and did really well for himself. For one guy I know it was a commercial decision taken near the end of an FDP that through him out of kilter so to speak. Either the airline pushed him too far or he was too obliging and helpful. Who knows.

I got away with it all over 20 years or so. 900 hours a year and young family doesn't temp me at all these days.


Right, 0610 hours and the kids are starting to stir . . .

[Doug the Head]

The 3 biggest problems with EZY rosters:

1) The total lack of EZY management to invest in it´s "number one asset" (it´s employees) while at the same time,

2) The British conservative mentality of having ´fixed paterns.´ For some reason people want to be able to know if they will be off on 17 February 2016... They call that "stability" but in a poorly run company like EZY the results are: anything BUT stability (roster changes) and being too knackered to do anything significant on those desperately needed off days.

The solution: investing in software that allows people to build their own schedules. This software (do a google search with "preferential bidding system") is readily available (http://www.sabreairlinesolutions.com/news/030516_Chicago_Express.htm), but it means that both pilots and management have to chang their conservative mentality which is problem number three:

3) A lack of willingness in the UK to inovate and change. People don´t fix things until it´s too late and it has fallen apart.

Every year the original EZY spirit and philosophy falls apart a little bit more, while nobody dares to take responsibility for making drastic improvements. Just a ´quick fix´ and move the same problem forward another couple of months... :ouch:

[Gunman returns]

Damienmk,

I was a copper in the Met for 15 years before I became a pilot. I now fly the 737 for a Loco. Your posts show a slight naivety towards police work which leads me to believe you have not been doing it for very long. Lets start with the shifts: I was always a shift worker in the police but be prepared for a shock mate.The earlies start much earler-In the police the earliest I was out of bed was 0430-loco 0300 regularly.Police-get home from early-1500.Loco 1800 back again 0300 for the next day. Late starts-police,leave home 1330 home at 2300.Loco leave home at 1130 home at 0100.
You mention being shot at,abused etc. Yes I agree stressful(though I would be interested to hear if you have ever been shot at). But really stressful events are not common in the police. ( And I say that having driven the area car around Forest Gate, East London, one of the most crime ridden boroughs in the country for 8 years)Every day in the airline world you will be landing in ****e weather etc with almost 200 people to take care of.Much more responsibility. You talk about salary increasing by 2x. you must be very junior in the police,I took a major pay cut to be a jet FO. I think you are doing the right thing but go into it with your eyes open-this is not utopia it is marginally better than the 'old bill' and enjoy your career

[jetjockey737]

Dougthehead,
I couldnt agree with you more. It amazes me to hear people talk so positively about this 'incredible rostering protocol'. 5/2/5/4 or 6/3 it doesnt really make any differance....apart from i now have less leave and a total inability to request a day off.

I have never worked harder, I have never been more knackered...and please dont start spouting all the usual B******S about scientific studies. How can a study done in the winter, with crews from other bases covering the study bases, be subjective??

I am so tempted to go on to a flexible roster but apparently the FTL alleviation still applies. So basically they could do what the hell they wanted to me, and I really dont trust them not to take take the michael!

The study should have been carried out by an independant, well respected group. NOT by someone carrying out a project for their GCSE in sociology or whatever it was he was doing.

Ah well better go, I am so full of energy after 5 earlies that I must crack on with a few jobs around the house. Same as tomorrow when I wake up at 3.30am on my first day off and spend the remainder of the day walking around like a zombie.

[Doug the Head]

Jetjockey737, perhaps you should go on a flexible roster and try to make a deal with rostering?

The problem is that some people like earlies, some people prefer lates, while others prefer the old 6/3.

It´s impossible for rostering to accommodate all those requests on an individual basis, but why not let a computer ´listen´ to the inputs from the ´number one asset?´

With the current CAA alleviation allowing more earlies, everybody should be able to create their own lifestyle, according to their own ´scientific study´ and needs. Personally, I love earlies and in my old company I always requested earlies through a preferential bidding system. If I needed a particular day off, I would also bid for that. If I liked a 6/3 lifestyle I could bit accordingly, or bid for weekends off.

The system would give every crew member a fixed amount of ´credit points´ and you could distribute those points, depending on the importance you give to a particular request. For example, suppose it’s your best mate´s wedding and you really really really need to have that day off. In that case you would allocate a lot of points for that particular day. Of course the downside is that that particular month, you have less points available to create other preferences, but at least you have more control over your schedule instead of the current or past ´written in stone´ schedules of 5-2-5-4 or 6/3.

Most people in my old company were very happy with this system and it creates a substantial savings as the company can save money on people in the rostering department.

The current 5-2-5-4 is again a ´quick fix´ solution which does nothing about the fundamental problem: lot´s of people in this industry have lot´s of different lifestyles. It´s NOT a 9 to 5 job.

With an airline with more than 100 aircraft and big Pan-European ambitions, maybe it’s about time to step into the 21st century and automate the rostering?

[RAT 5]

JJ737 & Dougie,

I couldn't agree more. To Big T, I do not advocate that the best answer is 4/4 for flight crew. If management insist on a fixed pattern, then this is better than 6/3 or 5/3 etc etc. Even the managemnent pilots agree that you are tired on day 5. However, they, probably, only fly occasional blocks of 5 days, not repeatably. So if you are tired at the end of the first block, after 1 month you are knackered, and the family is royally hacked off with your life style.

As Dougie says, fixed rosters are not necessary, and in most world airlines don't exist. They gives reduced flexibility to both crews & crewing, in an industry where flexibility is the buzz word; but then we all know from vast experience that flexibility operates in a one way street.

The simple fact remains that with efficient rostering, which = productivity, the budgeted amount of work can be achieved in 180 duty days, including SBY. Why then must you be on duty for 232 days pa. This is only because FTL's allow this limit. We all know what would happen if the limit would be raised, e.g Italy. The limits are being used as targets, which was never the intention. Surely the correct attitude is to maximise productivity, and once that productivity has been achieved then the job is done and any remaining time is free.
Why oh why do rosterers have the attitude that duty time = productivity and therefore if you have only the minimum days off you must be producing? This is total nonsense. What is the point of having twice or three time the number of crews on SBY just so they are logged as being on duty? Or going to work to produce 3 hours of revenue flying. Utter rubbish.

To BIg T. the 4/4 need not infringe the 18/34 guideline as day 2 or 3 could be SBY, and therefore not planned to be in this period. But isn't it strange that rosteres say this 'guideline' should not be infringed, when all the other guidelines are ignored.

Quick fixing is a waste of time, as are the same roster patterns for different operations. LoCo, charter, long-haul, short-haul; all different. Each should apply a common sense pattern, mutually agreed, to suit their own paticulars. It ain't rocket science, it is an attitude problem that is easily solved if management wanted to. There-in lies the crux; they don't want to. But sure as gravity is more certain than most things it is going to bite them very hard one day. You have to be blind to not to see the gap widening between ground based jobs and airborne T's & C's; and it ain't the airborne ones improving. The turn over in C/A's is frightening.
I watch with horror the conditions under which Loco C/A's work, for 12 hours non-stop, 5 days consecutively, compared to anyone else on the ground.
When is someone going to be honest and start up "Sweat shop Airlines"? The complete b@#$%^ks written in recruitment adverts is scandalous and an abuse of the very intelligence they demand of the applicant.

All the new reality TV shows, about good/bad business practices; one of those let lose inside an airline would be fantastic and a real eye-opener for the public.

I wonder what a poll of the senior members of the profession, pilots and C/A's, would turn up if asked whether they would recommend their own role as a profession to a school leaver. Mm?

[Big Tudor]

Rat 5

In fairness, I think most rosterers would agree with your comments. If a crew member is happy then it makes everybodies lives so much easier, and they are more likely to be willing to accept out of the ordinary changes when they come along. The problem comes with managment perception of productivity. Excessive days off on a roster are looked upon with with a very high degree of dislike by senior managers. It gives the impression of having too much time off. A lot of rosterers end up putting crew on standbys, even though they know they are worthless (the standby not the crew), purely to give the impression that the crew are busy.

The other problems arise from flight schedules. What may look, at first glance, to be a perfectly logical sequence of duties, may be totally unsuitable because of min rest, consecutive earlies or lates, etc. CAP371 does not lend itself to logical patterns of work or to realistic body clock phases. Why is the body able to conduct a 14 hour FDP at 08:00 local yet can only do a 13 hour FDP at 07:58?

The only sensible approach would be to allow individual crew members to have high degrees of input into what patterns they want to work. All the discussions that have taken place have highlighted the fact that no two people will like the same type of work. Some prefer earlies, some prefer lates, some prefer long blocks of work and days off, some prefer shorter periods with fewer days off. Until the industry as a whole realises that CAP371 does more to impede sensible rostering than to promote it, then we are going to be stuck with only pleasing some of the people some of the time.

[Doug the Head]

Until the industry as a whole realises that CAP371 does more to impede sensible rostering than to promote it, then we are going to be stuck with only pleasing some of the people some of the time. Thank you Big Tudor, that was going to be point number 4 of the problems which stand in the way for a better roster: the totally outdated and antiquated CAP371 rules from the CAA. I hope it won´t take an accident for the CAA to realise that this is obviously not the way forward and that a totally new approach is due... :(

[RAT 5]

Gentlemen,

I concurr, completely.
How is the industry going to overcome this dilema? There appears to be little or no action from any of the unions/delegations. What do you propose; because this is the first time I've heard violent agreement between flight crew & rosterers. Although to be fair; rosterers do what they are told to by their managers, who we have said before are the root of the problem.

[Big Tudor]

How is the industry going to overcome this dilema?
The short answer (IMHO) is it can't. BALPA have fought themselves into a corner by lauding the merits of CAP371 in the argument against Sub Part Q. It would be a serious contradiction if they now started a campaign to have CAP371 replaced on the grounds that it is inadequate.
The document is the CAA's baby so they are unlikely to make any major alterations to it, let lone start from scratch. The latest amendments have taken years to bring into force, and even then they were watered down from the original proposals.
My personal view (for what it is worth) is that the only way we will see a major alteration in the flight and duty time regulations in this country is with the introduction of Sub Part Q. Unfortunately from a crew point of view, it will take a serious amount of negotiation and debate to persuade airline senior management (and some pilots) that there is a more effective and sensible way to schedule aircrew. The mentality of CAP371 is deeply entrenched in the minds of many aviation people in this country.

Edited to add;

I realise that this is taking the thread off track somewhat, however the debate seems to be heading more towards what is appropriate scheduling practices. The general consensus seems to be coming reound to the fact that it is very difficult to lay down generic restrictions that will suit everybody. The resolution could be relaxation of the rules to allow for more fluidity in scheduling, however this would require a massive leap of faith on all sides. i honestly don't believe that aircrew/management relationships have enough trust to allow this to take place.

[Yarpy]

The document is the CAA's baby so they are unlikely to make any major alterations to it, let lone start from scratch.

Er, Yes. If only the Doctors at the CAA. who doubtless fully understand the problems of CAP 371, would take up the mantle.

However, with such cushy jobs at the Belgrano they are unlikely to take up the mantle on the pilots behalf.

You might call me a cynic but this was a view expressed to me by an Ops Inspector . . .

[Banzai Eagle]

Am i correct in saying that Jar Ops Sub Part Q FTL has no reference to consecutive early / late duties?. Get rid of that, by all means have a scheduling agreement sitting inside it and gives crews flexibility to choose.