Leeds Thread

[veetwo]

Touched down late and ran off the end of 14 around 11:45 Zulu. No injuries, but paramedics are attending to several passengers suffering from shock. A/C has been stablised and is awaiting inspection from AAIB. Airport is closed for now. Any one know any more?

[timmcat]

Witnessed it from 14 threshold. LTE376 from Fuerteventura looked to land well past the normal touchdown point and has pulled off to the right at the very end onto the grass. Winds at the time south-westerly at 8kts, surface dry.

RT between tower / flight deck and fire crews indicate a reported brake problem. Pax being disembarked by stairs.

[JohnnyRocket]

A plane with 180 passengers on board overshot the runway today at an international airport, a fire and rescue service spokesman said.

The incident happened at around 12.30pm at Leeds Bradford International Airport in West Yorkshire.

A West Yorkshire Fire and Rescue Service spokesman said there were not thought to be any serious injuries.

He said the passengers on board the Airbus 320 plane were still disembarking following the incident.

[buttline]

From BBC (because the journalists always get it right)

Passenger plane overshoots runway
A plane with 178 passengers on board overshot the runway at a West Yorkshire airport on Wednesday.
The incident took place at lunchtime at Leeds Bradford International Airport.

A spokeswoman for West Yorkshire Fire and Rescue Service said it is not thought anyone was injured during the incident and there was no fire.

All passengers on the Airbus 320 plane had been evacuated. It is not yet clear whether the plane was taking off or landing or which airline was involved.

Airport alert

A fire service spokeswoman said they had been alerted by the airport at 1245 BST that a plane had gone off the end of the runway and had sent 10 pumps with around 50 firefighters to the scene.

Working in conjunction with the airport fire service they evacuated all passengers by 1340 BST.

Eyewitness Brian Bevan told BBC Radio Leeds: "We were in the departure lounge and there was this aircraft very close to the end of the runway and it looks as though it's dropped off with its nose wheel hanging off the end."

He said he could see fire engines at the scene and passengers being brought off the plane.

[JohnnyRocket]

A Leeds Bradford International Airport spokeswoman said: "An A320 LTE aircraft
arriving from Fuerteventura at 12.40 had problems on landing which resulted in
it coming to rest at the end of the runway.
"The 171 passengers on board were disembarked using the aircraft steps and
coached back to the terminal with no reported injuries to any passengers.
"The Air Accident Investigation Team will look to identify the cause and it
is hoped the runway will be operational as soon as possible."
She said that no flights were currently arriving or departing at the airport,
but added that airport bosses were looking to resume the services as soon as
possible.
She added that the flights were expected to resume later today.

[coasting]

Aircraft is an A320 of Jordan Aviation, JY-JAR and operating a sub-charter for LTE, from Fuerteventura, which I think is a MyTravel/Airtours IT flight.

[BOTFOJ]

is that a can of worms I can hear popping open?

[YYZ]

As Timmcat says, landed well after the normal point, just after the intersection for 27/09, no headwind, 5-8kt crosswind, therefore possibly a bit fast as well?

All speculation until investigation, at least nobody was injured!

YYZ

[Max Angle]

LBA claims another scalp, what a rat hole of an airport. How many is that off the end now I wonder?.

[GrahamK]

I can only think of this one and the Caledonian?/British Airtours? L1011.
What others have their been?

[Stick Flying]

A biz jet off the end of 14 and a Saab onto the centre grass (due to cross-winds) are 2 that I know of in the last 6 or 7 years.

[leeds.flyer]

Max Angle - I've been on here for a while, and not often posted but felt I had to upon reading your ill-informed and rather pompus comment.

You chose to coment before even getting the facts right - the journos as usual blew the whole thing out of proportion as "Plane overshoots runway" drama actually turned into an error by the pilot who when turning the aircraft round misjudged the turn and ended up with his nosewheels on the grass.

Yes, he had a brake problem, but it had nothing to do with his error in turning!

"A biz jet off the end of 14" was also pilot error.

Don't know about the Saab.

Paul

[Dylsexlic]

Oooerrr missus! That's told us.

[BTriple7]

Hello Paul,

I beg to differ I am afraid.

I believe that the aircraft landed long and fast and in an effort not to go off the end put it in the grass.

He landed (from my perspective) after the 27/09 intersection. I am not going to lay claim to knowing the speed he was doing but it was higher than the usual approach speed.

Similarly if you look at the location of the aircraft when it came to a stop, its at almost 90 degrees to the runway with the main wheels on the edge of the runway. If he had been attempting a 180 he would not of done it from the centreline and there would be a distinct angle between the main wheels and the runway - unless he got it seriously wrong.

Lastly you know what the hill is like going up 14 towards the 32 end, and there is little runway remaining. I would hazard a guess he got to the top of that hill and realised how little runway remained at his high speed.

[Call Established]

Anyone got a pic of this ???

[leeds.flyer]

Fair point BTriple7. I wasn't there so I can only go on what I am told. If I was wrong then fair enough, I apologise.

I just get annoyed with people slagging off the airport (as Max Angle did) when what happens has got nothing to do with the airport itself, but the pilots!

[Kestrel_909]

Pictures -

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=42872&page=1

Scroll down, way down!

[Pontious]

Max Angle was bang out of order.

Back to the thread:

No advanced warning of a problem with the aircraft (i.e. "Pan" or "Mayday") and no apparent shout to ATC on the rollout that there was a problem.

Not a particularly challenging runway in terms of length compared to the aircraft involved even if it did land 'slightly long'.

Weather- generally fine.

Brake failure anybody?

Is 14/32 it still closed?

[BTriple7]

Hello,

32/14 is now open with reduced TORA/TODA and LDA. Using it very much in a mixed mode use, ie landing 14 and departing 32.

More pictures here (http://www.kidscanfly.org/Triple7/050518.htm)

[LTNman]

Leeds flyer wrote

You chose to coment before even getting the facts right - the journos as usual blew the whole thing out of proportion as "Plane overshoots runway" drama actually turned into an error by the pilot who when turning the aircraft round misjudged the turn and ended up with his nosewheels on the grass.

Looking at the photos it is you who has a problem with the facts!

[leeds.flyer]

BTriple7 - Did you take the pics yourself?

Paul

[BTriple7]

Hello Paul,

I did - hence the err questionable quality ;).

[Reverand Lovejoy]

Hi guys,

I wouldn't get too excited. ILS not in use and NDB being used for app if needed but with 30k vis cant see it being an issue. ATC handling workload <slight> fine and 32 for t/o 14 for landing. Well done to LBA staff and inbounds for continueing <sp> to keep a professional service.........as expected. Would love to know more about 320 but don't want to get involved in speculation, I'm too busy studying for a Measurement and Control exam tomorrow.

The Reverand

[leeds.flyer]

If you don't mind me asking BTriple7 - do you work up there? If so, what do you do?

Paul

PS - Nothing wrong with the pics, but I would sort out that dust spot :D

[Leodis]

No expert, but can an aircraft really turn angles like that at high speed???

[+'ve ROC]

classic example of things being blown out of proportion.

not only by the word piano players i might add. is it really that big a deal?

just tow it back onto the rwy!

[16 blades]

Is it just me, or is there something odd about his flap config? That doesn't look like a landing flap setting for me (although I'm no expert on swept-wing jets) - looks more like a 'take-off' setting. Why would they be set to that after the incident? (assuming they've been moved at all after landing).

Maybe that could explain a thing or two? Or am I just barking up the wrong tree?

16B

[Max Angle]

Bloody hell, "ill informed", "pompous" and "bang out of order" just for being nasty about an airfield, don't take it so personally chaps. I stand by what I said though; it's a rat hole. It's on top of a hill which means it fogs out all the time or blows a gale, the runway is shortish, not even remotely level, points the wrong way and has a steep 3.5 degree ILS on one end and nasty overrun areas. Oh and autolands are horrible there. Apart from that it's lovely. On the plus side ATC are always helpful and efficient and the other staff are very friendly. Fortunately I am an infrequent visitor nowadays.

[nokia]

Why no chutes deployed - often situations of this nature will call for an evac as precaution - from inside it must have felt a very strange angle sitting forward and the crew would have no idea the mainwheels were still actually just on the hard surface.
At the very least must have been very hot brakes/wheels.....

[BusyB]

I recall a British Midland DC 9 doing the same shortly after they took over the LHR-LBA services from BA.

[Leezyjet]

Just been on Look North.

Passengers said that they sat there for "ages" before the flight crew told them anything.

Now just a minor thought, but would it not be a common courtesy to tell them something asap rather than leaving them sitting there frightened out of their minds ?.

Remember too that most of those people that were onboard only fly maybe a handful of time a year, so what might not seem like a big deal to someone who flys for a living sure is to them.

:)

[A4]

If I was up the pointy end sitting over the grass with my backside higher than my nose, I would DEFINATELY consider it a big deal - and a very bad day in the office!

Any confirmation this was a sub for MYT? Is it the regular carrier? MYT pulled out of LBA last year so presumably the flights have been subbed. I thought LTE were German....?

A4 :confused:

[BOTFOJ]

it was a charter for MyTravel the tour operator by LTE, which was subbed out to a Jordanian Airline.

[Flame]

Hi All;

Photo the the same aircraft, but not at the incident site, may be of interest to some...

http://www.planepictures.net/netshow.php?id=322389

[A4]

From the picture, this looks like a "white tail" with a couple of LTE stickers on it. I think we are going to see more of this i.e. subbing out of flights to "unknown" airlines. Whilst I don't wish to be confrontational or cast aspertions, what checks are these carriers subjected to before carrying uk pax? Does the CAA have to approve or inspect these carriers?

If I booked a holiday on the High Street at Lunn Poly or Going Places etc and pitched up at LGW to find myself boarding, for example, an eastern european 757 for my flight to Tenerife I'd be a bit miffed and possibly a bit concerned to.

Tin hat on.

A4 :hmm:

[BEST L/CONTROLLER]

Mainly to MAX ANGLE!

But there are others on here, what annoys me on here is the way everyone shoots down LBA at the drop of a hat, due to rwy length or what ever stupid reson you can think of next,

This incident has nothing to do with the lenght of rwy or what a rat hole it is, it's down to crew error of technical problems, until the investigation is over knowone knows unless you all working for AAIB! which I doubt,

Also someone mentioned the Saab, well I was on shift that day and that was down to crew error, we were listening to the RT and the tower said "the winds are 270/42G55knts your cleared for take off rwy 32, are you sure you want to continue with the departure due to winds" he replied "it'll be ok no probs," the next thing we heard in the office was the sound of the crash alarm, so we looked out of the window and saw the BMI SF340 spinning of the grass verge in between taxiway D and 28 as it was then, so not an airport problem would you say,

Also the Tristar, that goes without saying that was crew error, and from what witnesses say regaring the LTE then that was crew error, but untill the investigation,

There has been thousands of safe landings at LBA on most types of A/C B747's the lot and they've suffered no problems, even if the rwy's a little short, so that's me finninshed with now.

BTW LTE are Spanish, Volar Airlines is their real name, someone thought they were German, they used to be the Spanish subsidary of the German airline LTU maybe that's what your getting mistaken for,

CHEERS!!!!!

[sammypilot]

I don't see why you should be reaching for your tin hat A4. Most prudent holiday makers, when booking, check to see who they are flying with. Usually the brochure has towards it's rear, the airline to be used on a particular flight plus the type of aircraft to be used. O.K. so the operators always put in the saving clause that they may substitute other airlines and aircraft. However it is a big selling point that you will be travelling on a British Airline.

I too would be miffed to find that the aircraft that turned up would be on a sub charter to a sub charter and I would be extremely dubious about the quality of the crew and the aircraft's airworthiness. I stopped using one holiday company when instead of the nice shining B737 operated by a British company I was expecting to fly in, an ancient 727 operated by a Portugese airline with only 2 aircraft turned up at Manchester 24 hours late.

[leeds.flyer]

BEST L/CONTROLLER - Thank you for writing that, and well said!

I just get annoyed and feel very defensive about my local airport (and the airport I regularly fly from). All these negative comments that peropl are just happy to throw about when, as you said, the incidents have been crew werror, and nothing to do with the airport!

Paul

[BusyB]

BEST L/CONTROLLER,

'Also the Tristar, that goes without saying that was crew error'

'it's down to crew error of technical problems, until the investigation is over knowone knows'

Well after 2 comments like that I really hope you did read the Tristar accident report.
As I recall the crew landed at the touchdown point utilised max braking and went off the end. I think you'll find that the A/C for some reason did not stop as the performance had predicted. The criticism of the crew concerned the "before descent" checklist.
You might be the BEST L/CONTROLLER, but you are not much of a historian. Pot calling Kettle Black springs to mind.

[leeds.flyer]

Busy B - I don't think he was pointing the blame at anyone, but just trying to point out that it was not the fault of the airport itself, however, I do believe that the last third of the runway was paved at the time, which if I remember right didn't help the situation.

I seemed to think though that he did land late? But maybe I'm wrong.

Paul

[Pontious]

I heard the Tri-Star overrun was due to some armour plating left in the hold under the cabin floor as the aircraft had operated either a series of Governmental or Royal VIP trips. This 'additional' weight was not removed when the aircraft was re-configured post trips and not included in the Aircraft Operating Weights. Consequently the aircraft was a good few tons heavier than the crew thought and made landing performance calculations for. Otherwise a fair post L/CONTROLLER.

Max Angle.

Your post speaks volumes about your confidence in your own abilities and the capabilities of your aircraft.


:ok:

[BusyB]

leeds.flyer,

I recall the airport manager saying to the press "he landed there," pointing at the displaced threshold, "not there like all the others," pointing at the beginning of the runway.

If the braking action wasn't correct on the paving perhaps it was the airports fault.

[packsonflite]

I'm with Max Angle on this one!

I've operated into LBA many times over the years and don't think that anyone can deny that in some weather condition it is an airfield that will turn around and bite you.

It's certainly a great deal better since the runway was extended, but before that I beleive that BEA had a Viscount through the hedge at the roll-out end of 32 and BMA had a Viscount off the side in similar circumstances.

Being on a hill gives all sorts of odd perspective problems and it's not helped by the way in which when landing on 32, if you miss the hump, you end up floating above the downslope.

On 14, again you have an odd perspective, and there is a definate tendancy if you're not familiar with the place, to land deep.

I feel sure that someone will correct me on this, but Yeadon was where Avro's built the Lancasters and that it was anticipated that aircraft would never have to actually LAND there!

Right! Tin hat on, bunker doors closed! Heads down - INCOMING!

[INKJET]

Re your SAAB coment

At the time the cross wind limit on the SAAB was 35knts and only after this event was it reduced to 30knts. It was later found that this aircraft and others in the fleet suffered from an uncommanded steering input when the oleo was fully extended (to do with wheel centering prior to gear retraction) this could occur when taking of from rough and uneven surfaces due to WoW switch position. The instant wind passed to the crew was from the reports i read below the figure you suggest. In any event the wind reported to crews at Leeds have little to do with the actual wind. I have seen a tail wind on each end at the same time i have also seen one wind sock limp and the other on viagra!

What you comments show is that Leeds is a "interesting airport" to operate from, that the runway is mis alinged with regard to the wind and is as rough as they come anywhere this side of the CIS states, i did say in January that it was only a matter of time before we had a major incident

No its not at rat hole, but an uneven runway that is old and very rough across the prevailing wind at 650 ft above sea level comes a close second, one wonders why the saab didn't use R27 in that wind, maybe it was closed with aircraft parked on it!!

Cheers

Burt

[Max Angle]

Your post speaks volumes about your confidence in your own abilities and the capabilities of your aircraft. In fact despite my comment about fortunately being an occasional visitor to Leeds I rather enjoy operating in and out of some of Europe's more demanding and deficient airfields. You normally have to fly 3-4 hours down to the Greek Islands to find them but with Leeds it's right on the doorstep which means you often get two goes per shift, double the fun. There is nothing wrong with my capabilities or my confidence in them it's just that after many years of sitting in the left seat of an airline jet I am sufficiently experienced to recognise the pitfalls and hazards that are present at some airfields. Leeds, unusually for a UK airfield, combines quite a few in one place and demands to be treated with respect, even in seemingly benign conditions.

PS. I am beginning to see why people like 411a get so much entertainment from winding people up, it really is amazing how quickly the bait gets taken!!. No LBAs on this months roster but see you all soon no doubt.

[411A]

Now you know, Max Angle...all it takes is a slightly acidic comment to start the ball rolling.:E
A few here on these forums have exceedingly thin skins...as you have now noticed.
I would suspect that they are the folks that have the 'no confidence' problem.:}

[Three Mile Final]

I'm beginning to enjoy this .... what was the thread about ??

[BusyB]

The Lancs came out of the hanger onto the threshold of 28 at was then and took off, so I'm told.

[763 jock]

Bit of a Red Rose vs White Rose banter coming up.....By Heck

[jmc757]

Were LTE leasing just the aircraft from Jordan, or is it a full wet lease. I.e. were the pilots LTE or Jordan Aviation?

[mcdhu]

............it was an old RAF Nav school - but thereagain they're expendable!

Cheers
mcdhu

[Ben Cornett]

hmm, I come here as a young pilot. My forum experience on the Internet to date has been centred around 'gaming' and other such things, where children bicker with each other continually.

I come here, expecting to find some mature and interesting, perhaps informative conversation, and find the same bickering, albeit expressed with an improved vocabulary.

hehe, oh well. Don’t let me stop you.

:ok:

[supercarb]

http://www.leedstoday.net/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=39&ArticleID=1030931

Terror on the runway as Airbus brakes fail

By Geoff Fox

PASSENGERS on a flight from Spain have described the terrifying moments their plane overshot the runway at Leeds.

Dozens of the 171 passengers on board the flight from Fuertaventura screamed when the brakes failed on the Airbus A320 run by Spanish airline LTE, which touched down at Leeds Bradford Airport shortly after 12.30pm yesterday.

The plane careered down the runway, swaying from left to right as the flight crew struggled to gain control. The pilot was finally able to stop the plane after ploughing into a grass verge at the very end of the runway.

"It was terrifying," said Bernice Manuel, 62, from Morley. "We went hurtling down past all the buildings, crossing over different runways.

"We could hear the squealing of the tyres and smell the rubber burning. The pilot swung us round and we were being banged side to side. We were waiting for the big crash."

But fortunately, for Mrs Manuel and her husband Barry, 65, the crash never came. All the passengers escaped shocked but unhurt. Mrs Manuel added: "Just another inch or two and we would have gone down the slope at the end of the runway. I'm still shaking."
Mr Manuel said the pilot made an announcement, informing passengers the brakes had failed and asking them to remain strapped into their seats. It took 30 minutes until airport staff were able to escort people off the rear of the plane.

"It was pretty nerve wracking," said fellow passenger Dan Stanek, 31, from Shipley. "It could've been a lot more serious if it had gone much further. We didn't realise until we got off the plane just how close it was."

Disappointed

John and Ruth Church from Durkar, Wakefield, say they had been disappointed with the standard of the flight, but had not been expecting the problems that occurred upon landing.
Mrs Church, 53, said: "It was really frightening. We didn't realise what was happening. We were racing down the runway and the next thing we knew we could see smoke coming from the tyres.
An investigation was immediately launched to find the cause of the problem. That led to lengthy delays with the runway closed to both incoming and outgoing flights for several hours.

Sally Ramsay, a manager at the airport, said: "An A320 LTE aircraft arriving from Fuertaventura at 12.40pm had problems on landing which resulted in it coming to rest on the end of the runway. The 171 passengers on board were disembarked using the aircraft steps and coached back to the terminal building for their return journey home. There were no injuries to any passengers.The air accident investigation team will identify the cause after further investigation."


:rolleyes:

[BTriple7]

Heaven forbid crossing runways and passing buildings!

I think he may need to find the difference between inches and a fair few metres

8-)

[BOAC]

This thread is running parallel with that in R&N hence closed.

[HH6702]

can anyone give me the registrations of the following
1630 - 1730
fr 738 dub
ls 757 x 2
ls 733 x4
bd erj x 3

i drove past but was unable to get any regs your help would be really appreciated thanx

[scamptonboy]

HH6702 Try these, they are from an SBS log.

Ryanair 738 EI-DHV
Jet2 757'S G-LSAA & LSAC, 737's G-CELF,S,U & V
BMI ERJ's G-RJXF & K unsure about the 3rd.

Hope this helps? :)

[Rainboe]

And why is the Astraeus 737 not on your list? It's much better than those common Jet2 ones. It's an NG 700 version, very bright and shiny. It's not going to be there much longer.

[scamptonboy]

Rainboe And why is the Astraeus 737 not on your list?

Probably because it left LBA about two hours earlier for Heraklion...thats why not!

[HH6702]

Thank you very much for your information scamptonboy

[Rainboe]

<<Probably because it left LBA about two hours earlier for Heraklion...thats why not!>>
Well that shows it's out there working instead of sitting on the ground looking pretty!
Unfortunately it's going to be spending far more time on the ground looking pretty- in this, its last month at Leeds, it will be doing less work as the summer charter contracts end before it is sent away to Gatwick. Picture it while you can.

[CaptYanknBank]

Was driving along A61 Wakefield Road around 1120/01Feb saw what appeared to be a jet fighter on finals in to LBA.

Anybody see it?

Unusual visitor I thought...?!?....:confused:

[Bagheera]

Cant comment on your particular sighting Captain but can tell you this. Where I work at Edinburgh we are in close proximity to RAF Leucars. As such we act as a diversionary airfield for them should they go "Black" ie runway blocked or poor weather. Due to the differing types of controlling techniques and traffic patterns employed by civil and military controllers, the pilots will occasionally come in to do practice diversions. This allows us to get used to the higher speeds involved in what might be a surveillance radar approach and the pilots to getting used to fitting into a radar pattern for a possible ILS approach. Dont know for sure but maybe EGNM has a similar set up due to its proximity to RAF Leeming.
As an aside to this for those of you from the Edinburgh area. This is likely to become a more common occurence later this year when Leucars will be having its main runway resurfaced.

[lukeylad]

It could just be doing practice approaches for example we had a tristar at NCL today doing approaches.

[BYALPHAINDIA]

I can confirm it was a Jaguar from Coningsby doing an ILS approach onto R32, I saw it coming over Leeds Centre at about 1120.

Loud enough too..:D

Regards.

[chevvron]

Not an uncommon sight at any civil airfield; the RAF like to do 'practice diversions' at many airfields they would otherwise be unfamilar with.

[bri1980]

Hi all,

I was at Leeds Bradford today and saw a Jet2 757 taxi out to Rwy 14 and hold at the holding point for approximately 10 mins. It then taxied back to the terminal and on to stand. After about 20 mins it again taxied back to Rwy 14 and took off.

Then, about 20 mins after that, a Jet2 757 landed and I *think* (though am not 100% sure) it was the same one that had just left (if not the registration was very similar).

Does anyone know what had happened??

Bri

[jet2impress]

I don't have any details I am afraid. All the registrations on the B757 are similar. G-LSAA/B/C/D/E/F/H/I etc.

[lukeylad]

Jet 2 have 9 757s now *i think* with 5 at Leeds 3 at Manchester and one at NCL so it just could have been one of there other 757s returning from a flight.

[sandbank]

LBC Radio at 15.31 reported that an emergency landing was taking place at Leeds Bradford airport but gave no further details

UPDATE AT 15:53 LONDON (AP) - An airplane carrying 100 passengers safely made an emergency landing at Leeds Bradford International Airport in northern England, a fire official said Saturday.

``The aircraft has landed safely,'' a spokeswoman for West Yorkshire Fire and Rescue Service said on condition of anonymity in line with policy. ``They had a problem with one of the engines,'' she said.

[pfighter]

100 people on board ,one engine out

[TCX69]

Apparently it's a Fokker aircraft? Maybe Austrian? That landed at 1512

[Gassy]

Looks like it, departure of same aircraft now delayed "indefiently" apparently

[barrymung]

Great, innit?

How long will it be before the media report: "Flight XYZ to Heathrow, carrying 340 passesngers, ran out of inflight meals, but landed safely"?

[Enderby-Browne]

It won't be long, and of course it'll involve a narrowbody... Every member of the broadcast media involved in scaremongering in the UK should be denied boarding next time their name crops up on the passenger list and considered for prosecution by the CPS or the Procurator Fiscal in Scotland for possible offences against public order...

Aye, right. Bound to happen. In a month of Sundays...:*

[Colonal Mustard]

I cant believe we are discussing a non event, might just be me but do shipping forums discuss when the MV Blunderbuss loses an engine while in the straits of Hormuz:ugh:

[Yorkielondon]

I'm in this industry...not a pilot, not cabin crew but a regular commercial guy. It never ceases to amaze me to see the cynicism expressed by some posters-its such a shame! This was a safe emergency landing, it was professional airmanship but lets not dismiss the interest these events will create..sure there are sensationalists but dont tar all journalists or non pilots with the same brush. Educate by example and information!:):ok:

[A300Man]

TCX69,

Austrian Arrows = affirmative.

A300Man

[moggiee]

A twin with an engine out is a serious enough event to merit some discussion.

However, it would be nice if thread initiators checked first to see if there was already a thread running on the subject (there are 3 now).

[TwoOneFour]

Every member of the broadcast media involved in scaremongering in the UK should be denied boarding


By posting this "non event" (really? remember the Arrows Fokker at MUC?) on the Internet - and then perpetuating the thread by commenting on it - you're part of the "broadcast media". I'd even argue that you're worse, simply because of the accompanying hypocrisy.

[Kalium Chloride]

Dear BBC: Please stop reporting about those massacres in Kenya. Those of us who live in Surbiton aren't in any danger of being shot or cut up with a machete. You're just "scaremongering". :rolleyes:

[manrow]

Quote:- However, it would be nice if thread initiators checked first to see if there was already a thread running on the subject (there are 3 now).

But why should they moggiee, they only post at all to see their name in print and they have achieved it!