Late landing clearance at LHR

[In the slot]

Anyone know how many go arounds there are at LHR every day??
Great controllers, very precise, but sometimes it feels like they've watched the movie"Pushing Tin" too many times and are trying to out-do each other.
Sometimes that base turn for 09L after a vector from Lambourne is about 10 seconds too early which as you all know is the difference between a landing clearance at 300ft or one at 50ft!! Not good if you're also contending with a 40kt gusty wind!!
Any controllers out there, don't get me wrong, you do a great job. My latest clearance, around 50ft four months ago. Any advances on that???

[boroatco]

I'm a controller, not at Heathrow, If you keep getting a late clearance its probably the cotroller working their little socks off to make sure that they deal with as many aircraft as possible. We try to get it right as much as poss and occasionally you might get a go-around but the only alternative is increased spacing which give reduced landing rates which the BAA aren't going to like.
Just rest assured that the controllers are trying their best for you and if you do go around well its better than hitting whatever is on the runway.....


drink beer smerk tabs...

[U R NumberOne]

Hi there Boro-Boy! Any truth in the rumour you know all about go-arounds as you had plenty in your time up here? ;) Congrats on validating at your third unit anyway!

In the slot - boroatco and I have our differences where footie is concerned but he is absolutely right when he says we are only doing our best for you. When all is said and done if you don't like how tight it's getting you can initiate the go-around although I'm certain commercial pressures come into play here. Pleased you're happy with the service generally though.

The bottom line is probably 'so many aircraft...so little tarmac'!

[ATCO Two]

Hi In the Slot,

I am a Heathrow Controller and would echo what has been said above. We have only about two go arounds a day if that, based on everybody playing the game and vacating the runway as quickly as possible. We can use 2.5 nm spacing under certain conditions, so late landing clearances are common. We also have a "clear to land after" and a "land after" procedure which help to avoid RTF messages to aircraft on short final. The bottom line is minimum delay, therefore we need to pack aircraft as close together as is safe in the circumstances. We will do our utmost to get you on the ground, but as has been mentioned above you have the option of a go around if you (or we) aren't happy with the situation. If you would like to see the operation at close hand please e-mail me and I'll see what I can do.

[In the slot]

Only an average 2 a day? Not bad at all guys (and gals)! Keep iy up!
Full reverse and autobrakes 3 next time as usual to try to give you more tarmac!

As an aside;
If approaching 27L from the south side and holding short, being cleared to line up "no.5 after a Midland Airbus" can be a source of confusion at night in rain when there are three Midlands holding short north of 27L intermixed with other departures. Is there a real need to give a line-up clearance 5 aircraft in advance?? Just a question?

[innuendo]

I must say that one of the shortest traffic patterns I have ever had was after a go around at LHR. The comment from the tower to the aircraft ahead on rollout was "XXX, no delay please, traffic short final and he has been there once already". We were well looked after.

[boroatco]

At the end of the day if you dont have a go around now and then as an ATCO then you're probably not working hard enough!!!!

Drink Beer Smerk tabs

[AffirmBrest]

Echo the comment of all who are happy to return to LHR after another foray down beyond the Pyrenees or the Eastern Med.

Intheslot - why not ask LATCC about attending one of their pilot famil days - I believe the next one is in early June and they are an EXCELLENT way to learn a lot about the London TMA, and how we can all help. They are less then well subscribed at the moment, which is both tragic and embarrassing.

Keep it up guys!

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...proceeding below Decision Height with CAUTION...

[410]

Heathrow ATC would have to be, without a shadow of a doubt, the best ATC I've ever come across. In all the time I've been operating into Heathrow, I've only ever had one occasion where I might have said they weren't running at 101%. (I'm sure there's a 'B' team in every operation.)

I've been lucky, and never had to go around there yet, but on more than one occasion I've suggested to my FO that he might like to mentally re-acquaint himself with the go around procedure as we've got very close to the ground with another aircraft still on the runway.

In my experience, the controller is rarely the one who should take most of the blame when such a traffic-related go around occurs. It's usually a pilot who's a bit tardy clearing the runway or who's not followed ATC speed control instructions on finals. (I don't know how many times I've found myself at 160K as instructed and gaining quite markedly on the aircraft ahead who's also been asked to maintain 160 k to 4 DME.)

My only complaint is a minor one. I usually operate a 777-300 into Heathrow, and at the weights we're normally at, the request for 160 knots as early as it usually comes involves our lowering gear to allow us to take 30 flap, (flap 20 speed is usually somewhere towards the high 160s). This involves lots of power (and I suspect more noise for the people below) than we'd need if we could remain just that little bit faster down to around 2000'. I think most would agree that that's small cheese as far as a complaint is concerned, and I accept that the controllers have come up with a speed profile that suits the majority of the many types that operate into Heathrow rather than just the triple7-300.

I know it might be comparing apples and oranges, but I've often thought it's a shame the YSSY controllers couldn't spend a couple of days watching the way the Heathrow controllers handle their traffic.

[250 kts]

Oh careful there 410, I've just nearly had my nuts chewed off by an Oz controller on another thread when I dared to suggest things were a bit slow over there in comparison.(And it wasn't even a Sheila version!!)

[Hugh Jorgen]

Heathrow ATC is the dogs twithcher

Drink lurdsa beaz smurk lurdza tabs

[whats_it_doing_now?]

The latest landing clearance i've ever had was in the flare! Going into lhr during the routine runway inspection, so we were expecting a late one. At about 200' I presume the controller was just about to key the mic to issue the clearance, when they were stamped on by someone else reporting ready to cross the r/w. The clearance was issued at 30 radio and I just read it back before the wheels touched!

[In the slot]

What about the earliest landing clearance anywhere??
I was cleared going into Shanghai coming in on the STAR from the south on an equivalent right downwind for the southerly runway. The STAR took you up the west side and then onto a "right base" linking directly onto the ILS final approach fix for the south facing runway. Must have been about 25 track miles to run!! So early, we forgot we had it and had to ask again on short final!!

[Evil Jethro]

Just to address the point made slightly higher up about trying to identify the BMA aircraft in the 27L hold at night in the rain...you think its difficult down there??how do you think it looks from half a mile away and 200 feet up?? Our surface radar is not that much use that why we often nag you boys (and Fay!!) to put your logo lights on if there aren't..if you don't think it makes much difference come up to the tower on a dark wet night and we'll show you!!

Glad our efforts are appreciated by you all anyway...at least someone loves us!!!!!!

[Superpilut]

I have been to LHR for the first time last week, and was really impressed! I always thought there was a lot of traffic to be handled in FRA, STN and CDG, but this field really topped it! It's really a pleasure to work with professionals like you. Thanks for the service!

[CaptainSquelch]

The earliest one for me, In the slot, was in Kano, Nigeria. Thirty miles out, pitch dark African midnight, we were cleared for a visual approach and cleared to land. Only thing is: He forgot to switch on the lights.

Sq

[gul dukat]

so squelch you were cleared for a visual ?? is it different there cos here I would like you to able to SEE the airfield before dispensing with my vectors?? :) Why (and I ask genuinely)did you accept a visual approach if the airfield was blacked out !!

[PlayersLight77]

earliest approach clearance i have seen is in a non-radar environment on a midnight shift. When the aircraft was still on the ground requesting a takeoff clearance at a different airport 25 minutes away....
"cleared to the XXX airport for an approach, not above 16000" hehe

G

[Father Jack]

410,
slightly off topic I know, but I've just started working at a unit with a large number of 777's, and have found my "160kts to 4" request met with "any chance of 180kts to 8, then 160 to 4."
Is this due to the speed/flaps/power/gear scenario you described, or are they just trying it on with the new boy, (only Celt on the r/t so I stick out a bit!)

FJ

[flaps]

A question back to you controllers at LHR (I too think you're the mutts nuts).

When we're No.1 on short finals and the guy on the runway has just cleared, we always feel we're about to get a landing clearance (and usually do) but at what point do you want us to throw it away if you haven't actually cleared us? Say if at that critical moment someone comes on frequency with their life story?

Personally I've not got below 100 feet so haven't had that situation yet.

Thanks guys.

[SQ7000]

Back to the topic,

If you need more time, just ask for it.

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The road of life is rocky and you might stumble too, but as you point your finger someone else is judging you.

[Gonzo]

410,

A few months after the 777-300 starting coming in we got an Operational Memo explaining that you like/require a slightly faster approach. I'd suggest just reinforcing this expectation by telling the approach controller as soon as possible after coming on frequency.

Flaps,

About the late clearance. I'd say that if you see the a/c ahead has cleared the runway but the r/t is blocked, leave it to the latest point at which you can safely carry out a go-around, then go around if no clearance has been given. Stating the obvious here, I know, but don't land without a clearance! I had one a/c proceed to land even after I had told it to go around. Lucky for him there was nothing else on the runway than the a/c vacating.

Gonzo

[boroatco]

Hey Father Jack
How's it going out there in the land of the sand?? Hope your still adhereing to my strict health and fitness doctrine that took me so long to instill into you at EGPD
Keep in touch big fella


Drink Beer Smerk Tabs

[410]

Father Jack, I suspect that most of the 777s you're dealing with are -200s if the pilots are making the "180k to 8, 160k to 4" request of you, and no, I don't think they're trying you on. That's a comfortable profile for a -200, if just a little tight maintaining 160k to 4. (In Cat II/III conditions, ideally, they'd probably like to be back at ~140k by 6nm [and ~150k for a -300] to allow for a properly stabilised approach below 1500'.)

However, if it's a heavy -300, 170k to 6nm would be ideal (if you're wanting things kept tight), to save having to get the gear out too early with all the associated extra noise and unnecessary extra fuel burn. A -300, close to MLW, (as we usually are when landing at Heathrow), can't go much below ~167k without taking 30 flap, for which we have to have the gear down.

Hope this helps.


[This message has been edited by 410 (edited 27 April 2001).]

[CaptainSquelch]

Gul dukat,

Life is a little different down there. When the radar is not present and the radionavaids are out all you need is CAVOK and when it's dark, believe it or not, some lights. In this case I think he must have seen our lights so we continued on the INS to the field and descended to our minimum safe alt. When we overflew the field, still on the INS, we must have woken him up with the engine noise. He came on the radio and asked us what was up. When we explained him that we must have missed the field he came back with the magic words: "Oh I think I'll switch on the lights".

It worked. http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/cool.gif

[gul dukat]

thanks squelch !! good luck !!

[Father Jack]

410,
yeah that's a great help.
Thanks very much.

Boroatco,
I'm shocked that you had to ask if I was still following your wise ways.
"there is only one true path to coronary heart disease" you used to say.

[halo]

Thanx everybody for all the nice comments. Its nice to know that the crews out there appreciate the hard work that goes into squeezing every last bit of utilisation out of the runways!!!

If any of you ever fancy a visit so that you can see how much of a challenge it actually is, then feel free to email one of us and we can sort something out for you. We will be more than happy to plug you in with us on Ground so that you can see all the stuff we have to deal with as well as talking to aircraft.