"SERVICE CREW" in QR

[apaddyinuk]

Hello all,
Just been told of this recent anomoly at QR (thank god im out of there) where due to the high number of resignations and low training numbers, new crew are being trained up only for Cabin Services and not doing their initial SEP training for the aircraft. They go on board, dont operate a door or take place in any SEP procedure. They are there simply to provide a service to the passengers until they are trained up. And its not just one per flight, its a few, sometimes the aircraft are operating with minimum SEP trained crew!!!

HOW CAN ANY AIRLINE ALLOW THIS COMPLETE LACK OF SAFETY ONBOARD????

When there is an emergency, passenger turn to the uniformed crew and expect to be reassured. They expect the crew to be competent safety experts and know that when the s%&t hits the fan, the crew will know what to do and get them out of the aircraft!!! WHAT WILL THEY THINK WHEN THEY TURN TO ONE OF THESE (NON) CREW MEMBERS AND THEY DONT KNOW WHAT TO DO???? Will these crew members jump out of the aircraft when the real crew are shouting "evacuate, evacuate" and look like total spare tools (mind you this happened already once in DAC)????

I was told this by several QR crewmembers and I assure you its not a rumour. I have since told this to several colleagues from BA who were planning to use QR for holidays, they have all changed their plans!

I sincerely believe that European governments (especially the UK) should be asking questions about this airline if they are happy to revoke Phuket airways landing rights!!!!!!!!!!

[homesick rae]

Paddy: I agree with you. This is absolutely atrocious, but you and I both know what it's like there so I am not surprised anymore.

Regarding the DAC evac: I was assisting in crewing the day that happened. (what a day that was!) Maybe I have misunderstood your post, but, as far as I am concerned, the crew (all SEP trained) did a fabulous job and evacuated the pax in 54 secs.

(By the way, that day is the ONLY time I caught a glimpse of compassionate side to the wee ****e... commonly known as AAB...he offered to dispatch and Amiri aircraft to bring the crew back to DOH!)

However, the fact still remains this is a huge safety issue and should be reported to the relevant authorities if true!

Cheers

HR

[A300Man-2005]

The DAC incident was handled professionally and totally correctly, Paddy. There were no crew on that particular incident who behaved unprofessionally. In fact, there were two similar incidents in DAC if I recall correctly, two birdstrikes, one of which neccessitated the grounding of the aircraft for several weeks (was it ABO, Homesick?), and they brought in a Boeing 752 from Royal Brunei to cover. This was operated by QR cabin crews, but BI deck crews. The other incident neccesitated that an A310 was drafted in temporarily from another airline who, coincidentally, also had an Oryx logo on it's tail!!! This A310 was temporarily operated by QR Cabin Crews also (around early 1998, I think??) Was it Red Sea Airlnes***???? Help me out Homesick!

However, going back to the original topic (sorry to digress), I think you raise a number of very valid points, Paddy. Although what QR is doing is probably totally legal, it possibly isn't completely in the best interests of the passengers, unless the non-safety trained crew wear huge badges stating "I Don't Know safety!"


***EDIT: It was Air Djibouti-Red Sea Airlines, Airbus A310.

[gccpro]

Pay s**t you get AAB.

Pay right and you get a proper administrator who does not use the bit he calls willy to sign the bottom page of every employee living this nightmare in Doha.

What a swinger!!!!:E :E :E

[Skyg]

Guys, what you said is totaly truth ...

It's been long time some european organization should have had some few words with QR about the safety issue....

For example now on Osaka Flights (around 12 hs flight) crew are "allowed" to have some rest.... but ..... ONLY ON FRIDAYS!! hahahaha.... :confused:

So if you're operating the flight on Monday... forget it.:=

[salamalikum2]

..same for the cockpit...on friday flight cockpit crew are allowed to have rest...??!!!??? something to do with .."aclimatised or not aclimatised..." well aclimatised or not...the friday flight osaka-doha is as tired as the other osaka-doha flight..Friday or not!!!
What´s the point to have a guy sitting on the jump seat for 12 hours...... (most of the time sleeping or sleepy..) ??.We all arrived very tired...!!!

Where is the safety...?
:(

[apaddyinuk]

I apologetically remove the DAC remark!!!!

But Im glad that those of you who are down there do see whats going on and are not trying to make excuses for this. It only takes one person to mention this to the british tabloids and it WOULD be Phuket Air all over again!!!

[homesick rae]

Paddy: well the Sun are always looking for something like this! LOL!

Cheers

HR

[mutt]

looking for something like this

Remembering that QR operates to IOASA standards, they must have a minimum legal number of FA's onboard a flight for safety. I dont see a problem with them from adding more in order to enhance service.

Mutt.

[cavelino rampante]

A few facts amongst all the sensationalist dross thats appeared on this thread

QR is JAR compliant and flights NEVER depart Doha without the minimum of 1 SEP trained cabin crew member per 50 passengers. These rules were formulated by the very European goverments you want to report QR to. Thousands of Low Cost Flights depart and arrive all over Europe with minimum cabin crew on board every hour of every day, whats your problem?, want to report all of them as well.

Yes it is undesirable to have non SEP trained personal on board, a lot of people are not happy about it, but its not illegal and a temporary measure by all accounts.

As regards flight time limitations QR follows to the letter UK CAA CAP 371 FTL's, so again I really dont know what the problem is. The Friday Osaka - Doha sector is operated in part by a cruise commander because its required by UK yes UK regulations. The guys operating as cruise commanders on this sector are all senior F/O's experianced on type and generally well regarded as good operators within the airline. The other 3 Osaka sectors dont need inflight relief as the report times mean that the jumpseat pilot covers the UK yes UK regulations that we follow.

Yes we all get off the aircraft tired after a longhaul sector but dosent every other longhaul pilot in the world get off the aircraft feeling the same

Dont get me wrong, there are a lot things at QR that could be better, get rid of the CEO for a start, but coming on here inferring that QR flightcrews accept aircraft "WITH A COMPLETE LACK OF SAFETY ON BOARD", comparing a legal operation to that of an airline banned from UK airspace, is highly insulting, highly unprofessional and Paddy you really should know better.

[apaddyinuk]

I should know better but considering that this actually came from the horses mouth of a captain...WELL MATE...you decide! When push comes to shove and I had to chose an airline to fly on as a passenger I know who I would chose...one with a full compliment of trained crew. Airlines like Qatar always get unusual and ignorant looks from potential passengers in the west and so they have to sell themselves on their excellent safety record and the training if its crews in order to win over new customers. How can QR claim to have excellent training if only 6 of its crew on a A330 are SEP trained? This should be reflected in the airlines advertising. Hooters Air in the states openly advertises (jokes aside please) that its flights are crewed by main cabin crew (for safety) with hooters girl as addition for services.
Sorry if the my post sounds sensationalist but it really is something that I feel very strongly about and I certainly dont apologise for what has been written. Qatar Airways are being hugely negligent and misleading to the public regarding its safety standards and training and as such deserves to be outed.

[ea306]

Hooters Girls to enhance customer service... hmmmm Good comparison!

Somehow I doubt that would happen at QR.... but maybe someone should sugguest it?;)

At least the Hooters Girls are in alternate uniforms and can be differentiated from the SEP qualified "Cabin Crew".

So if a situation arises one would know where to look for further instruction........:D

[cavelino rampante]

So now we've moved on from the headline "HOW CAN ANY AIRLINE ALLOW THIS COMPLETE LACK OF SAFETY ONBOARD????", to" Qatar Airways are being hugely negligent and misleading to the public regarding its safety standards and training"…..

Seeing as you've completely ignored the thrust of my argument in a previous post, and seeing that Homesick has already corrected you on what you've "assured was not a rumor", if as your username suggests you are an Irish person in the United Kingdom let me put this in your own backyard for you and deal in some facts. As an aviation professional Paddy (I assume you call yourself one) lets just deal with the facts.

Last year Ryanair the Irish low-cost airline carried 27 million passengers in its 737 aircraft all over Europe. All of these flights departed with the minimum number of SEP trained cabin crew on board, 4 per 737-800, 3 per 737-200. Ryanair HAS to comply with JAA regulations Qatar Airways has CHOOSEN to comply with JAA regulations (and I'll say it again for you) JAR OPS 1.990 requires "One cabin crew member for every 50 or fraction of 50, passenger seats installed on the same deck of the aeroplane".

These are EUROPEAN regulations drawn up by EUROPEAN governments after one would assume extensive research had been conducted on what exactly is required for passenger safety. If you have a problem with these contact the JAA in Holland maybe the IAA in Dublin or the CAA in the UK and voice your concern about their regulations to them. I don't see Ryanair advertising the fact that they carry minimum crew on every flight and why not?, because simply they don’t have to!

I'm also an A330 Captain with Qatar Airways so let me give you some FACTS from the "horses mouth". I've always had a minimum of 10 cabin crew on my aircraft, these days I have 1 minimum, 2 maximum, service crew, so we go with a minimum of 8 (not 6) fully SEP trained colleagues in the cabin to operate the 8 doors on the aircraft. Service crew DO NOT sit at doors and this is briefed when I meet them in ops prior to the flight. This has also been the experience of my colleagues. Let me repeat to you again we're not happy with the service crew situation here, we're told its temporary and yes if Al Baker treated people like human beings we wouldn’t be in this situation now, there is NO argument there!

Qatar Airways is very good with written rules. In fact as an employee they have a comply or die attitude to the rules, you follow them or your out. There is no negligence or misleading of the public in this regard.

The rules that Al Baker and his nodding dog managers over in the tower don’t comply with are the unwritten rules, the rules that treat people with dignity, fairness and respect and yes the cabin crew in particular here get very little if any of that.

Regarding the unusual and ignorant looks from potential passengers then you'd never know it by the passenger loads, the aircraft are by and large full and passengers are usually very happy with both the levels of safety and service they receive on board from our hardworking and mistreated cabin staff. In fact QR can't get enough aircraft or crew the demand is so high. Don’t take my word for that, go on the airlinequality.com website and read reviews from our passengers. If you don’t want to pax with QR Paddy then don’t simple as that, plenty of choices out there.

If you feel as strongly as you do and have facts of noncompliance with regulations, then contact the relevant authorities and have them investigated. Don’t come on here and run down the hard work and reputation of the thousands of honest professionals employed at Qatar Airways who operate in a difficult environment legally and safely every hour of every day and who are tarnished by your foolish postings.

Finally as a Captain I am ultimately legally responsible for the safe operation of the aircraft. To call yourself "real crew", to call hardworking service crew "spare tools", to suggest that I and my colleagues sign for and accept aircraft that are operated negligently, with no regard for safety, that we mislead the public about the level of our training is grossly unprofessional and frankly very unrepresentative of the BA professionals I have met.

You really SHOULD know better.

[Hajj Man]

Very well written cavelino rampante,

Bravo!!!!!!

I don't think that people understand that the minimum crew are on these flights to arm the doors and for the legal safety of the flight and all the other crew on board are just a tempory fix to help along with the service.

It is up to the Captain and the CSD or CS to make sure that each aircraft type has the minimum QUALIFIED SAFETY CREW onboard. Yes it is the obligation of the company to roster such people on the flight but the bottom line in the Briefing room and for the departure of the aircraft is apon the CAPTAIN to check with the CSD that all required crew are onboard and none have been off loaded or last minute change to another flight leaving your flight short of the MINIMUM required crew.

HM

HM:ok::ok:

[A300Man-2005]

Yes, it was rather eloquent, wasn't it Hajj? Fully agree with all of the comments pertaining to the hard working crew. I always have and will always continue to take my hat off to their extreme endeavours under difficult circumstances.

[salamalikum2]

.....concerning the cabin crew....Anybody can tell me why we don´t have ANY locals cabin crew, either girls or boys....???????
Well i guess....probably they don´t want to be the first local slaves....:)

[A300Man-2005]

.....and sixthly...........the locals don't like AAB!

[homesick rae]

Mascarpone: not necessarily...he terminates Filipinas too!

[salamalikum2]

sorry Come4c......

Do you mean Qataris are real muslim......!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???
Well i'm not a muslim, but i rood a lot of book about islam..
Although Qatar is prentending to be a muslim COUNTRY....

Well some of them they are....but the more i read the more i'm disapointed about the behaviour of some people pretending being muslim...... lack of respect, lack of honesty, making show as much as they can, dont known what's hard working mean....

And talking with "real" nice muslim from other country (yemen, iranian,wherever...), believe me we don't get the best image of the real islam here... :open, tolerant,respectfull, clever,honest,wise!!

:ok:

[A300Man-2005]

Sir or Madam,

With all due respect (incidentally, I am NOT a Muslim), but the State of Qatar is NOT pretending to be a Muslim country - it IS a Muslim country.

It is quite bizarre and, some would say, inexcusable to suggest in your post above (if I am interpreting it correctly) that Muslims in Yemen and Iran etc. are somehow "better" muslims than those in Qatar.

At the end of the day, people are people, no matter where they are from.



Back to the original topic - I heard that QR has slightly revised the Service Only Crew training, and some of the ab-initio batches now being processed, actually WILL receive the full blown training course, comprising service and SEP, etc. before being placed out on line.

[4HolerPoler]

I'd politely ask all concerned to get off the religious bandwagon - salamalikum2 you are testing the limits of the courtesy that is extended to those that are not "professional pilots" on this forum. Wind your neck in half a turn (somehow I think this one will fly over the top) or start registering as salamalikum3.

4HP

[gccpro]

H4P just left S1's head spinning there........But not to worry: "he is not in his box. You Call back later!"

LOL


:E :E :E

Someone will need to moderate him too, by the looks of it!