DEC's Remember Emirates.

[Bird On]

Hey folks,

just a timely reminder that Emirates Airlines provides a great opportunity for Direct Entry Captains.

Its a great airline, in a great place, providing many excellent opportunities.

The recent DECs all seem to be a great bunch, and have settled in well appearing very content and happy to have made the move.

Anyway with the somewhat revised recruitment team and selection process now in place to assist, it maybe just the answer for many Captains needing to get out of any rut and experience a postive change.

Nothing to lose.

Anyway Good Luck and Keep Discovering. :ok:

[donpizmeov]

Can not wait to see the replies to this one. Things getting a bit dull in brisvagas Bird on?

Don

[flite idol]

Tickety-boo!!!!

[Bird On]

We are fortunate to work in a dynamic industry with growing opportunity for all, and sometimes its easy for our friends in other places to have overlooked or forgotten about the excellent possibilities available to Direct Entry Captains at Emirates.

A supportive "heads up" to our fellow "Band of Brothers". No more ....no less.

Therefore no spiteful or selfish replies will be entertained!

HappyDays.

[Wizofoz]

Gee,

Isn't it nice to get an un-biased view from a selfless individual with no vested interest whatsoever.

My heat swells with Bon-Ami

Thanks Birdy, what a guy!!!

:yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

[donpizmeov]

Too right Birdie, a very dynamic industry. I think quite a few of your former colleges are thinking of following your lead and heading home for a DEC job ...what will it be called? Virgin Pacific?

Can we use you as a reference? Guess the EBA did not go too well?

Don

[flite idol]

Fellow band of brothers excluding existing EK fo`s who cannot take advantage of the dynamic opportunities due to DEC`s!

[411A]

<<Management should be rethinking some of their recent decisions and practices that have caused this change in perception>>

Why?

Direct entry Captains will always be in demand, simply because they have the experience that (so far as I can see) is aptly demonstrated by some of the recent First Officer postings sadly do NOT have.

Ain't likely to change anytime soon, either.:\

[flite idol]

That is exactly the point! There have been circumstances where FO`s have been left in the right seat to fly with DEC skippers less QUALIFIED in terms of both PIC and time in type and have had their commands delayed.

[bus canuck]

Bird On,

You CAN't be serious - Surely this is a wind-up:uhoh: :confused:

For the record, by ANY industry standard, the F/Os at EK are more than qualified. I acknowledge that in an Ex-pat situation such as exists in Dubai, management can and will do anything to save a buck. (I would argue that this policy is at their peril.)

However, just because they CAN do this, does not make it right. Furthermore, pilots taking advantage of this bull-headed policy are for the most part turning their backs on the morality of the situation for what they see as personal gain. Interestingly, of the 10 or so EK DECs I’ve met, all were quite unhappy.

There are airlines that require DECs, but EK isn't one of them. (flite idol is bang on, btw.)

[White Knight]

411A - how you make me laugh:{ :{

Experience - as you see it!! It doesn't count for everything in this business I'm sorry to tell you. In fact, having flown with one of our esteemed DEC's (turkeys fly better than this guy), I have to tell you he's obviously more experienced than you or I simply because he's had SO MANY EXPERIENCES - 'cos he ain't got the skill :mad: :mad:
Luckily there are plenty of good aviators amongst the F/O's to hold his hand and guide him to a safe landing!! Oh yes, the same F/O's who have lot's of flying time as well...

[Gretchenfrage]

EK-FO's, I have some questions from up north (my name is my nature):

Why is it, that worldwide FO's are permanetly saving their employers (who treat them so badly) from screw-ups of Captains, especially DEC's?

Will you lateron be the first Captains who don't?

As you are expecting (requesting) fast command, at the same time hating that company so much, and apparently mostly hating Dubai aswell, when you will finally pass your upgrade, will you then stay with EK for life?

If not ,will you then, so morally correct as one points out, only apply as most junior FO's to new companies?

[White Knight]

GF - to answer your questions. Yes, some F/O's hate EK and Dubai, then again lots don't!!! Doesn't mean we like the current policies emanating from various parts of Flight Ops - but, in that respect isn't that similar to many other airlines?

Oh yeah - I plan on sticking around here for many years :ok: :ok: And yes - everyone cocks up from time to time, but most of us are humble enough to say so, and then learn from it:cool:

[Gretchenfrage]

That sounds a little less radical WK.
I am just against the propagated code of conduct:
A FO who leaves for a better situation (faster upgrade) is flexible, intelligent, sharp etc.etc.
A Captain who leaves for the same reason is categorised as immoral, unloyal etc.etc.
GF

[fullforward]

All this discussion is perfectly pointless given that:

NO MATTER of what me, you or they think, do or consider reasonable and fair, EK ( and most employers) will consistently do WHAT THEY WANT, simply because we are not in position to change it...

[bus canuck]

FF, the point is this person, "Bird On" is publicly soliciting for DECs at EK and representing that it's a good option. It seems worthwhile to point out that he's wrong.

GF, the "moral" aspect to this issue is that EK changed the conditions for upgrade to suit their economic needs. Many (most?) of us didn't come here for the "quick upgrade" - we already were Captains. However, Emirates had a 10 year tradition of upgrading from the right seat. We trusted that and decided to wait our turns. Can you imagine that they suddenly changed perverted the rules so much that in some cases guys are hired DEC with no experience on type while 3 year experienced guys cool their heels?

Like WK, I don't hate Dubai or EK and plan to be here for the long haul. That doesn't mean that they are beyond criticism nor are guys who use an unjust situation to their advantage. To answer your other question, I wouldn't do it and haven't in the past when presented the opportunity.

[Gretchenfrage]

I see your point.
With your stand however, you more or less glue any Captain to the company who upgraded him. Now if a company starts screwing up and going into demise, all it’s captains would be doomed for a downgrade when changing ship.
You’ll get to my age faster than you like and you’ll eventually get into such a situation with wife, kids, a lot of merit and hours etc., again faster than you like. Maybe not at EK, but then you never know, and your stand applies to all companies I guess.
I have been there and I don’t wish you will ever. It’s hard to defend these morally upright positions once the s**t hits YOUR fan.
It’s a jungle out there and you can’t ask others to stay in it just that you can get to the nice clearing the day YOU thought you’d find it. You trusted your management, that was your choice!
If in need of a job and offered either LH or RH seat by EK, I admit I would take the LH seat. I just wonder how many of the contributors to these forums, apart from you bk, would in real life, and not only on forums, take the other….
GF

[donpizmeov]

GF,
The EK FOs were told at a pilots meeting when the DEC thing was announced, that none of them would be disadvantaged or held back because of DECs! It was pretty obvious then, when aircraft deliveries were taken into account, that this was untrue. So once again these guys were lied to. When the managers were questioned on this point, they said they had it all in hand and would work around it to ensure no-one was disadvantaged. It would seem this was then forgotton during the drinks break. The comapny was also on record from a few years earlier of reversing a decision to hire DECs when the pilot body voiced concerns over the issue.

I think its true to say that guys joining after the decision to hire DECs have no reason to complain, as they knew the deal. For those who joined before this decision, and who are presently being held back, well I think they are quite justified to vent as much as they like. One of the major reasons they joined, and in a lot of cases, left a LHS job to join here in the RHS, has gone.

I think when you look at the min requirements for a guy to get a interview here, you can see these guys have been round the block once or twice. A large number of the guys have totals and experience far greater than some of the DECs. But, the company will not count the hours flown with EK towards the total for DEC. Go figure!

Bus Canuk

I do not think Bird-on has been working for EK for a few years now!!! Gotta wonder huh!

Don

[Payscale]

Look...their airline, their toys, their rubber rules.
Its not the DECs fault. Blame the 3 years rule and whoever made it. When I grow up I want to be a DEC too. We all do. Most guys are not going to stay here for a full career, because we dont have a pension.

So when YOU have been here for 10-12 years, which job are YOU going to apply for? EasyJet FO or a 16000 USD DEC job? Be honest...
The commands are coming around 3 years - plus minus a couple of months - so its strictly theoretical.

Innncccoommminnngggggggg:hmm:

[Che Xindamail]

When you are in the right-hand seat, it is easy to bitch about captains you fly with. When you change seats, the job changes character:

As an F/O your priorities are to make smooth touchdowns, whereas as a captain, a greaser is not a priority, rather the "big picture" takes the front seat.

As an example, I flew back to homebase in ****ty weather. My F/O looks at the ETA in the box and says something like "I should be able to make the xx o'clock airport train". In contrast, in my mind I was already going through a missed approach followed by a diversion to another airfield, the consequences to passengers, whom to contact, etc, etc.

So you may think that you're a hotshot F/O, that you know how to fly the plane better than the skipper (sometimes you do) but things aren't quite as black or white as you might think.

As for DECs, do doctors apply for nurse's jobs?

[Cuillin]

Che

'Your' first officer had more than likely already been through in his mind what he was going to do in the event of a go-around/diversion/communications/fuel calculations. Now he was thinking about the train ride home.

Sounds like he was well ahead of the game and probably well ahead of you.

The comparison between doctors/nurses is way off-line. How many nurses become consultants?

[flite idol]

Wow Che X, is that how it works? I`m so glad there are professional skippers like you up there saving the day, every day form the foolish lobotomised fo`s. Having flown in both seats it is my opinion that it is far easier to be the skipper than fo, for, but not limited to the fact that I don`t have to deal with the superiority complex you display!

[White Knight]

Che - you must be a bit stupid. As has been pointed out by a number of posts on this thread - MOST F/O'S HERE AT EK ALREADY HAVE SIGNIFICANT COMMAND TIME!!!!! and are therefore well aware of the big picture!!
As for greasers, well, one of our esteemed DEC's that I flew with recently was trying for one - touched down right at the end of the TDZ.... not the best airmanship really:{ Especially on a fairly short runway.

[411A]

\\\Che - you must be a bit stupid. As has been pointed out by a number of posts on this thread - MOST F/O'S HERE AT EK ALREADY HAVE SIGNIFICANT COMMAND TIME!!!!! and are therefore well aware of the big picture.\\\

Oh really, White Knight?

Well aware of the big picture, were they?

Then they should have known all the aspects of that big picture...as in, you never ever give up the LH seat (of your own choosing) to play in someone else's sand box, without a very good reason.

Suppose they forgot that part of the picture.

Live and learn, eh?:p

[Gypsy]

MOST F/O's IN EK HAVE SIGNIFICANT COMMAND TIME - well then what a mistaka to maka join as an F/O.

Golden rule - once in the LHS think verrrrry carefully about moving out of it. Most people who do it don't repeat don't get back in the LHS in the timeframne that they envisaged.

For the other F/O's - The DEC's will mostly have been through hard times and tough decisions themselves to get where they are today. You will be Capts yourselves one day and unless you think you're going to spend the next 20 plus years in EK then you'll be looking to go somewhere as a DEC - .......hmmmm? Or perhaps you've got some moral objection to that and you'll happily explain to the wife and kids why things are going to be cut back as you voluntarily step into the RHS again to avoid upsetting the young chaps.

No, I don't think so - do you?

Grow up guys

[Gretchenfrage]

That's the point. Those who complain are mostly former captains who would like their position back asap. At EK there seems to be that "fast track" thing. This means FO's with former command would like to upgrade faster than their collegues without. For these simple FO's these guy's are no different to DEC's!!
GF

[Austin Holed]

Of course we bypassed F/Os could stomach flying with the DECs a little bit more easily if they weren't so uniformly useless. After having to jump through all sorts of hoops and build various giant lego toys just to get an F/O slot, it is particularly galling to have these wunderkinds come breezing through the interviews (where the standards are of necessity dropped significantly) and then have to guide them around the network where many of them are definitely out of their depth. OK, if the company wants to hire DECs, that's their perogative, but could they at least hire some good ones. Hey what about hiring 411A? He seems to know it all. Oh and thanks Che Xindamail, I never realised my priority was to make smooth landings, see? I am learning already.:yuk:

[Gretchenfrage]

A H
Your contribution unveils quite clearly why EK has to bypass some FO's and hire DEC's. :{

[White Knight]

GF - I'd say that you're the one making the ill informed nonsensical comments as you ain't here to be able to see what's going on:ugh:

[Gretchenfrage]

W K
Maybe not, but it doesn't need physical presence to realise that there is a high level of immaturity or a frightening lack of CRM capability among EK FO's, reading your contributions.
Making valid points, some of you sound very unprofessional, so further PP discussions are futile.
GF over and out

[donpizmeov]

I disagree GF. FOs have been running flat out try and keep up with the moving goal posts in the sand, which are EK T&Cs. They have been lied to (with regards pay, rosters and commands), and they have been bypassed for no reason. Yet they are still fly huge hours per month. They put up with rostering practices that are hard on home and family life. And still are so flexibe with regards roster changes due to shortages of crew, that they are keeping the company running. They in fact are pleasure to go to work with. For you to suggest that they are an unprofessional group is very wide of the mark.
It is interesting that for someone with no vested interest in the airline, and obviously having no idea of the actual situation here, you are very quick to get into a slagging match. I think this reflects more on your CRM skills than on others. You would not be related to VVV would you? You both seem to share the same endearing qualities.

Don

[Austin Holed]

Gretchenfrage "Over & Out?" Thank goodness for that. But I would have liked to discovered why old Gretchy thinks that it is immature of me to expect the DECs to be at the very LEAST my equal when it comes to managing a wide bodied jet flight halfway across the world? And no this isn't a case of some bitter F/O thinking that he can always do it better than the old fart in the LHS. The large majority of captains I fly with are switched on clever guys who know their SOPs, operate in a smooth professional manner and are a pleasure to fly with. This is why it comes as such a shock to have to babysit a DEC who was hired supposedly because all those "immature" F/Os aren't suitable. Still I agree with you on one thing "Frage" - discussing it with you is futile.:yuk:

[White Knight]

AH - you beat me to it!! Exactly what I was going to say.

Besides, I have nothing against the DEC's personally - don't blame them for taking a job. BUT - having to hold the hands of the FEW duds who got through the recruiting and training net :yuk: :yuk: Guess all that experience means stuff all eh 411:{ :{

[Believe Brother]

Interesting point re GF Don. Look at when he registered to use this site! I suspect he is yet again one of these sycophants with no kahoonas hiding behind user name changes.
Agree with everything you say re the FO's. I don't know how these guys manage to keep their senses of humour given the modified truths they have had dished out to them. Guess the ones leaving just had no humour reserves left. Good luck to you guys.

[A330guy]

Austin Holed in particular, who wrote

"F/Os could stomach flying with the DECs a little more easily if they weren't so uniformly useless" and

"and then have to guide them round the network where many of them are out of their depth..."

and then again

"old fart in the LHS" and

"comes as such a shock to have to babysit a DEC"

what you have to realize is "you need balls to be a captain!"

If you ever have a problem on the flight deck you need to speak up - you can't come running to an anonymous forum and crying to everyone here. You need to be able to deal with problems as they arise and sort them out responsibly and diplomatically.

Be a big boy and speak up to the people concerned or keep your little rants about the DECs to yourself!

[dicksynormous]

It is obvious from the previous posts that the problem is the bruised egos of experienced guys from various backgrounds stuck on the right seat while others get the commands.Therefore

1. white knight...your f/o chipand real attitudes is starting to affect your posts.If you were a skipper before you now know what your f/os probably thought of you.

2. it happens everywhere, not just at ek.

3. As 411a said you voluntarily gave up your commands for emirates. It didnt pay off. Deal with it. You will one day be in the same position.

4. bus canuck..after spending 4 months in canada I can now appreciate why your screwed up jobsworth protectionist, provincial, proffessionaly discourteous industry probably forced you (and many other canucks) to the gulf.Ive seen more global awareness in an african village. It would be a mistake and nieve to transpose your lofty "i would never do it" principles to dubai. It isnt cananda mate.You probably took what you could at the time,just bad luck pal


If these guys allegedly checked out straight onto widebody left seat with no previous then it cant be that hard can it, so maybe all you situation saving , captain babysitting f/os arent as good as you think.

I turned down an f/o job last year. Might apply again at the end of the year ...as a Captain. I sympathise with your frustrations but it wont affect my desicion. As someone said earlier you cant be all that experienced generally in the industry if you got yourself in this pickle and think it local to ek. More than one way to play the game.

[donpizmeov]

Interesting lot of posts here. To think this thread was started by an ex employee who is afraid the EK fellas are going to take his new job, and kept alive by a bunch of wannabe DECs.

Must be a sh@t job you have now Dicksie if joining EK would be an improvement. No doubt the saftings we endure will be a step up for you. It is terrible to think that anyone would have to work in such conditions. Good luck.

Don

[411A]

\\\Guess all that experience means stuff all eh 411\\\

Well, I dunno, White Knight, surely the company certainly thought so....and their opinion is what counts, not yours.:}

[Believe Brother]

dicksie, do some research - it doesn't happen everywhere. Read the posts properly, not just what you want to see. The point is that these F/O's joined under a set of conditions, and the conditions have been changed enormously to the detriment of their careers. Some of the guys gave up their left seats to join here, because the T & C's when they joined made it look attractive. This happened in CX years ago; blokes would resign their commands in companies to go right seat CX because the T & C's made it an attractive proposition. No different from the blokes who have similarly joined EK. However, EK has changed their T & C's. And,when the company couldn't get the wide-body, internationally experienced DEC's they thought would come flocking to the wonderful EK, they lowered the requirements for the DEC's. Therein lies the problem. Go on now, apply again. Even if they take you, you still have to pass the course.

[BYMONEK]

Dicksy

Having already declined an offer of employment, why would the Company want to give you a second offer now that a left seat is possible.Did you give a valid reason for not coming originally? We look to employ people for many reasons, among which, is a desire to work for Emirates.....not JUST the fact that it's got to be left seat or nothing.
Still, good luck if you do decide to come for interview.....you may just need it!

Regards

BYMONEK
;)

[International Trader]

All your worries may be over.

Got an email response from EK saying that they have no more DEC requirements.

End of Topic ?

[helen-damnation]

''Insh'Allah''
:ok:

[fullforward]

I don't want to spoil your joy, but this is true for this week and maybe for the next month...on the longer term there's a different story.

cheers

[BLE]

I know most of the FOs in EK promised accelerated commands lack nothing in flying experience. What the ones crying the blues over DEC positions and broken promises lack, is experience with the industry.
If the lips are moving, the management is lying. You take your chances when you sign a contract as an FO with a promise to command in"1, max 2 years!!".
I agree with 411A, the company makes the call. If they change their mind, too bad. They can, and you can do nothing about it.
And for White Knight: As to all DECs being useless; I guess they went through the same hiring process as the rest of you. How does that reflect on you? Stop crying, take it as a man and get on with it. If you really are good, your command will come.
In aviation, no one ever get what we deserve We get what we negotiate.
The DEC just had better cards negotiating than you!

[EGGW]

IT, good to hear.

I have flown with a good number of DEC's, and the standard varies to hugely experienced and great guys to distinctly average. However, one or two who have been here for years, you certainly have to keep a beady eye on.

So bottom line, DEC's will vary in quality, but to label them all bad is crass.

EGGW. :hmm:

[White Knight]

BLE- I didn't say all DEC's are useless, I said a FEW DUDS!!! Most of the guys I've flown with (DEC's that is) are switched on and very likeable. And no, they haven't actually gone through the same hiring process!!!!
Doesn't change the fact that they're totally surplus to requirements does it?