CPL Exam

[eason67]

I recently did my CPL skill test and had my examiner grill me over my Tod and LD calculations.
I got my figures from the A/c manual but he quite rightly told me i hadn't factored them.

Am I right in that we factor ToD by x 1.43 and factor LD by / 1.43??

He thought it was Tod x 1.25!!!

Cheers

[Mobieus1]

Depends what performance group your a/c was in. When I did mine it was group C so most things were factored into the graphs.

If you look in Lasors it refers to a AIC where all the factors are listed to be added to your take off and landing distance.

[High Wing Drifter]

Eason,

In addition, its all in your CAP 698 that you used in the exams.

[FlyingForFun]

The second section of LASORS (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/LASORS2005.PDF), "ORS", contains the Safety Sense leaflets. The very first of these, "General Aviation", includes advice on factoring. Section 12 of that leaflet covers Performance, and states:The performance figures given in the Handbook/Manual were obtained by a test pilot on a new aircraft, so in addition to the published factors, apply a safety factor of 1.33 for take-off and 1.43 for landing. These give acceptable safety margins, and will offset an out-of-practice pilot/tired engine. On a few aircraft these may have been included in the manufacturers information as ‘factored’ data. (See SafetySense Leaflet 7 ‘Aeroplane Performance’)Safety Sense Leaflet 7 gives more detailed information.

So, to answer your question, the take-off safety factor is 1.33, not 1.43. However, I'm sure I read somewhere fairly recently that the advice had changed, and that the recommended safety factor for take-off was 1.25, as your examiner said - but I can't remember where I read that, I can't find it again now.

More to the point, though, how did your school let you get away with making this mistake for your CPL skills test? For both my CPL and my IR skills test I had to complete a full set of performance calculations for my 170a flight, just before the actual skills test, and this should have been picked up then! Do you mind if I ask what school it was? I hope you passed, despite your school's oversight in not pointing this out to you.

FFF
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[eason67]

Thanks for that.

Rather not say which school as they are friends of mine. Its my fault anyway, I should know and I did use the CAP 698 for my figures.

I got a partial and re-take shortly, weather permitting. Just have to do part1 and 4 again which is the brief (inc calculations) and circuits. It was a terrible day, all sorts of bad luck....and it was Friday 13th!!!! Should have known better shouldnt I?

Anyway, you live and learn.

I'll check lasors out and the issue about the new ToD with the CAA direct and post what they said here.

Cheers

[Keygrip]

Sigh - if this was an episode of Radio 4's "Just a minute" somebody would buzz me for "repetition".

The short answer is that the factor to be used is a variable - the only way to find out which one to use is to look in the FLYING SCHOOL OPERATIONS MANUAL and it will be specified in there.

Even if the examiner thinks differently - that is the only figure that you can use to factor for simulated public transport operations, in that particular aircraft, from that particular school, at any airfield.

OPERATIONS MANUAL.

[FlyingForFun]

Ah yes - of course, Keygrip, now I remember you posting on the subject before. In fact, remembering that has helped me remember where I saw the 1.25 - it was here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=167044).

FFF
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[eason67]

Key grip,

How come then Lasors still says ToD is x 1.33 and Ld is x 1.43????

If it's up to flying schools AOC guidelines why stipulate in the first place.

I think I may go with 1.33 to be safe. At least i can ram Lasors on front of him to justify it and also it gives a longer take off run which is a safer bet anyway.

Thanks for the info though. very much appreciated!!:D

[Keygrip]

E67 - interesting that you NOW bring up Lasors as an answer (and a different one at that) to your original question and answer.

The time to do this sort of study is BEFORE the first attempt at the flight test.

In answer to your question: Half the guys at the CAA will constantly tell you that "the answer is in Lasors" - the other half will constantly tell you that "Lasors is riddled with errors and, as it is not the source document, is effectively worthless" (Yes - annoys the hell out of me, too).

The "source document" is the JAR-FCL. Nothing else.

As I said before - the original CAA approval for public transport flight was based on factors of 1.33 to go - and 1.43 to come back. JAA said 1.25 - so any UK operator using the JAA figure of 1.25 was breaking UK law, as it gave reduced runway lengths for public transport operations.

The CAA, in their efforts to adopt international standards, then gave all operators a "letter of exemption from the law" to allow them to operate to the new (lower) figures.

Flying schools were invited to choose which figure to use - and specify it in their manual. That is the figure that must be used whilst operating at that school.

Please feel free to ignore the advice that you have asked for and use your own figures. Just hope that your commercial examiner doesn't read Pprune (some of them do) and, as such, isn't aware that having been given the answer, you don't have the intelligence, sense or interest to approach your second attempt at the test with the correct information (even when you now know where to get it from).

Publications do NOT get updated at the same rate (if ever) as the material that they discuss - I've just found out, through an informal conversation with a friend at the CAA, that insurance is now mandatory for the operation of a UK registered aircraft. It doesn't say that in the text books - at least not at PPL level air law.

[eason67]

Key grip,

I did my re-test and passed it with a CAA examiner agreeing with me using JAR figures.

Due to my FTO not really delivering in these terms I had to find out using other means, and thank you for your help.

I dont, however, thank for your rather rude comments. No need for it!

For the record, the CFI didnt know either what figures to use even when asked twice. ( as a result I wont be using them again!).

I took two sets of figures with me; CAA figures and JAR figures. I told the examiner that I was going to use JAR figures and he was happy with that.

If you are a moderator then PPrune must be desperate. There is just no need for you shooting your big mouth off with insults. What do you do for a living, not instruction I hope!!

You were also wrong! I did take everyone's advice and comments. Please take mine; read postings carefully next time as you seem to have misunderstood the situation i was in and what actions I took as a result. Also understand that pprune is supposed to be a forum for pilots to stick together and help each other, not insult each other with unconstructive comments.

Point taken???? I hope so...

:ouch:

[Keygrip]

What do you do for a living, not instruction I hope!! Thanks for the laugh - cheered up my Monday morning.

Congratulations on passing the CPL Skill Test, by the way. Not easy, is it?

[High Wing Drifter]

Well said Eason. Don't count on any humility in this place though :ugh:

[Keygrip]

Although I did know the answers to your questions and I stick by every word of them - and you actually proved to the "CAA Examiner" that you were NOT fully prepared for either of the flight tests that you went to do (and I believe that to be the fault of your training provider, not you [at least, not 'directly'] - I have never held a European CPL (just an FAA one). I've often thought of applying for one of the JAA ones but never got round to it (but that is an 'aside' that doesn't really have any bearing on this discussion).

What I would really like to ask is did your "CAA Examiner" ask you "Why you had elected to use the JAA figures and not the CAA ones?" or "Where would you find the correct answer?"

I'd be equally interested (for professional reasons) to hear which school it was and/or which "CAA Examiner" it was - maybe you would send me a PM with the answers?

[Future Pundit]

I thought I understood ToD & LD. Now I am confused.

<<edit: Why are you confused? In what respect?>>

[Future Pundit]

I am at work away from my ATPL books hance trying to remember has confused me! This forum is the first time that I have heard the difference between the JAA and CAA factors, so when I do get home a thorough re-read will be required especially before I start the CPL course.

Hopefully my confusion will be resolved. Also I am running out of good navexs to try in prep for the CPL course. I seem to keep ending up in the same places. I will have to adventure further away. Any ideas for some good controlled airspace? I have done Brize/Lyneham to death.

[stuart youngs]

did my test I am sure I used 1.25 for TO.
Hey I passed it though so , once passed easily forgotten.
what were those written exams about again
;)