SA316/319/Lama - external load!!

[3top]

Hello everyone!

I hope some of the seasoned Lama drivers and/or Alouette III choffeurs can help me out!

In a couple of weeks we expect to get a rather substantial ( for us...) sling job.
In the past there where rumours floating around that there exists:
# a STC
# factory authorization (with or without modifications)
# whatever paper

that authorizes to lift 2000 lbs (907 kg) with a 316/319 instead of the POH-limit of 750 kg (1653 lb). .....on the hook.

HOWEVER, I can't find anything in the manuals available to me, nor on the internet.

Do you have any info on this!

I appreciate your help!

3top
:cool:

[ATN]

3top,

It has been a while since I flew those dinosausorus. If I remember correctly, there are 2 sets of different equipments :
- the regular Cargo Swing which allows up to 750 kgs
- the ERC system that consists of a reinforced frame underneath the fuel tank and goes up to 1100 kgs
These equipments come straight from the factory and don't need any STC except for external mirror, depending on local regulations.
I have never heard of any factory authorization.

Cheers

ATN

[cpt]

Hi ATN,

I have just landed with one of "those dinausors" few minutes ago...not from a sling job, but if I remember well, better not plan for more than 600/650Kgs with an Alouette 3 (S316).
But what a nice bird to fly !!!!!

[3top]

ATN, cpt,

thanks for the quick reply! Always can count on Ppruners!!

Now if you could get me pointed in the right direction:

What is the ERC system?
I guess I should be able to find out if this was/is installed in our machine. Any photos?

Ours is a 319B - big Astazou XIV on top. That mother has more power than the trans can take!
The job I mentioned is at sea level - literally!
However if you have different experience, please let me know!
I plan on 45-60 min of fuel for the job. I will have to lift the cargo about 20-50 ft vertical and then we can fly off - 3-5 min, drop, and back for more.
Most of the time I can count on a 20-25 kt wind.
So if you say the A III will not take more than 650 kgs in those conditions, I don't have to worry about the 1100kg do I!:{

Our ship is Ex-French Airforce (or Armee, who ever was operating the helicopter...). Would you know if these aircraft had the factory option to lift 1100 kg installed?
Any idea WHAT the modification to the airframe is about - looks like? Photos...

I want to find out IF our ship is built up for the higher lifting load OR how we can re-fit it. .....if it makes sense.

Any other drivers/chaufeurs with some experience/stories/experience...?

Keep it coming guys, I am new at this game (Alouette III), I can use all the help I can get!!

Thanks!

3top
:cool:

[ground effect]

your job may be at sea level but even way higher the lama is still top dog...click here

http://records.fai.org/rotorcraft/current.asp?id1=112&id2=1&id3=2

:cool:

[cpt]

3top, I have done some sling / long line with Al III but 316B only (with SA319 MGB installed) and I don't know much about 319 models in load lifting. The only thing I can say is that the performances graphs in RFM are fairly accurate, and we usualy have no surprise if we plan our flight with them.
Another thing, Astazou engines are more sensitive than the old artouste III and a good compressor wash is always a good thing to do before heavy loads liftings (same with rotor blades)
But these Alouette III are really a pleasure to operate and fly, I always had the feeling they like to fly as they like their drivers.

[SHortshaft]

3Stop,

Sounds as though someone may have bitten off more than your machine can chew if you have committed to lift 1100 kg on the hook of an Alouette III.

ERC refers to Eastern Rotor Craft, which I believe is now part of OnBoard Systems International. You may wish to try e-mailing them at [email protected].

At 1100 kg + 60 minutes fuel you would be pushed to do it in a Lama or even an AS 350B3 unless everything was really working in your favor. As I understand it the Astazou is an even bigger 'gas guzzler' that the Artouste. I wouldn't fancy your chances of lifting more than 950 kg even at minimum fuel, unless of course the wind is really working for you.

If you have the 'plastic blades' on your machine you will find that a plus.

However, worth remembering is the fact that you will probably be over MAUW, which renders your certificates and insurance invalid, so be careful you don't drop the load. It may be worth looking for a friend with a B205 or something like that.

Take it easy out there!

[3top]

Hey guys,

now we are rolling! All good info!

cpt, we certainly will do compressor washes every day as well cleaning the blades (probably 3-4 times a day). The job is supposed to be on an island, so the machine will see a lot of freshwater and greasing!!

Shortshaft,
no contract, promises, etc. yet, so we are still okay in that department! We are just working out details at this time!

The whole question comes around to, if with the ERC installed, the MTOW- with external load is increased over the regular MTOW.
Just like on the EC350B3....wish I had that one to do the job!

I am nearly certain this would be the case, as there is no "space" for the extra weight at regular MTOW. With the Emptyweight of our "Beast" I am right on MTOW with 60 min of fuel and the 165 lb pilot and about 700kg - 50kg short of the max external load as it is....

ground effect,
A SA319B is all I have available! ...no Lama, unfortunately!

Keep it coming!

Thanks,
3top
:cool:

[ATN]

3top,

I am not sure the ERC kit can be fitted on an Alouette III. Anyway the 2250 kgs MAUW cannot normally be exceeded, ext load or not. From the figures you gave, the basic system should do. I understand you are going to fly very short trips. In this condition we used to reduce the max payload by 10%. It will be more than compensated by better speed and easier manoeuvering, meaning shorter trips.
Be smooth on the collective since the Astazou is more sensitive than the Artouste - and burn less fuel.

Cheers

ATN

[3top]

Hi guys,

Surprise! After some digging around in all the cool stuff that came with our A III, I found a complete cargo-kit!
Frame, hook, everything! It is a SIREN hook with a rather weird cable loop afair instead of a regular hook. As the job will require a remote hook, this doesn't bother however. The hook is supported in a frame that is mounted to the helicopter via short cable straps with pull-pins.
Quite neat engineering from the french chaps back then - todays EC-engineers should go to the museum some times to reload old ideas! There are even special brackets in the A III cargo hold to mount the whole kit!!

It seems the only difference between the 319B and the Lama is the cabin section - ....and 300-400 lbs in favor of the Lama.
This makes the kit fit both airframes, however if I can't dig up any paperwork that certifies the 319B to take a higher MTOW with external sling cargo, I am stuck with 750 kg. Now, the job is a rather fast/rough "move the s**t" affair, it really doesn't matter anyway. As ATN suggested a little less is more in these cases....

So last try: Does anyone know of a STC or factory-something that increases MTOW for the 319B for external load? ...like on the B3....


Next question:
Where do I get an overhauled or servicable winch for the A III.
I understand there where 2 different typs - electric and pneumatic (powered by turbine bleed air...)

We are rather interested in the air-hoist, but a good lead to an electric one is just as well appreciated!!
....and yes I did check in the "cool stuff", no luck, no winch there - would have been too good!

Cheers,

3 top
:cool:

[John Eacott]

I don't have details on the 319, but the 316 had a MAUW upgrade with modifications AM2017 or AM1749, utilising the 319 MGB. The Siren hook and frame is the standard Alouette unit, do you have the installation instructions? Make sure that the shorter cables are installed at the front of the fuselage, if it has the cable attachment :D

2.3.8 of the Flight Manual :ok:

[3top]

Hi John,
that's good news!

We have the SIREN hook, but also the subframe.
I understand there were 2 different systems:
a cargo-SLING and a cargo-SWING (the one with the frame....)
The manual is very specific about the short cables with the sling.

I will imediatly check on the modifications you mentioned.
If the requirement was a 319 MGB, this should aly to the 319 itself as well! ......hoping!
There is no apparent visual difference between the 316 and 319 MGB. The easiest way to check is to weight them, however with only 1 kg difference it better be acurate...

Any tips towards the hoist?

Thanks for info,

3top
:cool:

[ATN]

3top,

You can tell a 316 from a 319 MGB by the S/N and also there must be a tag somewhere.

The MAUW remains the same, 2200 kgs for the 316 B, 2250 kgs for the 319, whatever GB is fitted and there is no STC to increase it. The only difference concerns pitch limitations as shown by the onboard computer.

ATN

[3top]

....and what a computer it is! One mechanical marvel! :D

ATN, of course you are right about the serial numbers. Nevertheless our mechanic found some reference in the manual about this 1 kg weight difference, too...

Direct inquiry with different sources didn't produce any news regarding increased MTOW with sling load either.
So 750kgs max on the hook and 2250kg MAUW it is!!

On more question about external load:

Has any one off you experts experience with releasing max weight cargo under full load - I mean for this upcoming job I am supposed to dump the cargo without setting it down.
From trials during cargo-checkouts I know that it "bangs" pretty hard just releasing with some load on the hook, even with the cargo on the ground.
How does that affect the machine and cargo gear in your experience.

Come to a near hover or very slow speed and dump the cargo under full weight on the hook/cable!


I'd appreciate some of your experience and suggestions!!

Thanks,

3top
:cool: