Puma Replacement

[zerospeed]

Just wondering what to replace the mighty Puma with?

Now my personal favourite is the NH90, but seeing how the Americans bought the Merlin, should we buy blackhawk? Maybe we should just get rid of our medium lift capability and buy more Chinook and Merlin.

On top of all of that does anyone have any idea what the Support Amphibious and Battlefield Rotorcraft (SABR) project actually is?

[Tiger_mate]

NH-90 gets my vote, I would even volunteer to be staff on the Evaluation team / OCF. Better still, base it somewhere civilised north of Watford Gap.

[The Helpful Stacker]

Better still, base it somewhere civilised north of Watford Gap.

An oxymoron surly?

;)

[tucumseh]

"On top of all of that does anyone have any idea what the Support Amphibious and Battlefield Rotorcraft (SABR) project actually is?


Cancelled.

[PlasticCabDriver]

NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 NH-90 or Cougar.

[c-bert]

SABR-SAR isn't cancelled - they just have a £5 budget....

[Evalu8ter]

NH90 eh? Looks gucci with loads of toys-but then so did the Mk3 Wokka! With £1.5 Bn cut from the helo procurement budget, affording more Lynx, Merlin, Chinook & NH90 is going to be difficult. We've pretty well committed to the Flynx (to keep the Yeovil DIY Superstore happy), Chinook is a sure-in as CH53X is still a paper cab and helo coherency is all about minimising the number of types. WHL will fight b****y hard to sell more Merlin, esp as a CHF cab (one logs trail with the pingers et al..). So, how can we afford NH90 as well? It doesn't fit in with coherency to have another type (though it seems the Canadians don't worry about this..). Best bet for a cheap Puma replacement? Give Mr Carson in the US all of the Mk4 Sea Kings and as many Mk6s that we can afford to modify. Result? A 140kt King which we already have an infrastructure for and know how to defend! Do it now while the exchange rate is so good! Or, we can scour the world for more Pumas and dumb them down to our level....

[ShyTorque]

I've got a great idea!

How about a licence-built Westland S-70C Blackhawk, re-engined with the Rolls Royce RTM 322? I'm sure it'll fit straight in......

Whaddya mean, they thought of it before? It flew in 1986? Oh yes, I remember; it was when they were talking about replacing the Puma.....and the Wessex :rolleyes:

[Miles Offthe-Target]

Irreplacable surely, however should we run short there is bound to be at least one in Monaghan.

[Lee Jung]

I think Sea King Mk6C is a prime contender to replace the Puma as a 'stop-gap' measure, ie until 2040. There is still about 40 airframes which could be converted relatively cheaply as has already been said the rationalisation in the support chain would be huge (60+ people in the Puma/Gazelle IPT for starters-including my wife!).

It would be nice to think the whole fleet would than be 'Carsoned' with the new blades/Indian tail rotor/new lift frames, effectively re-lifing the airframes and giving us the 140kt (vmax, 125 kt cruise), 7,500-8500lb payload, as well as up to 25% more power, but that would involve significant investment and smart acquisition only applies to shiny new kit which runs massively over budget, not commons sense.

Replacement for the Puma - Land Rover Wolf and 4-ton trucks of course.

[The Helpful Stacker]

Replacement for the Puma - Land Rover Wolf and 4-ton trucks of course.

With tail numbers a'la RAF Collective Training the other year?

:rolleyes:

[zerospeed]

After some digging, I now know that the SABR project has been absorbed by the Future Rotorcraft Capability programme. This also includes the RN's Surface Combatant Maritime Rotorcraft (SCMR) and Army's Battlefield Light Utility Helicopter (BLUH) projects. The latest rumour is that the Merlin Mk3+ is too expensive and the Super Lynx is too small to fufill all the requirements. I've also found out that EADS have offered to build the NH90 at Yeovil, now that'll be a barrel of laughs. I do like the look of the NH90 and it does come with some pretty cool toys, plus it has extremely low radar and IR signatures, which will be great against those buggers with double digit SAMs.

[MarkD]

Please don't mention Canada, helicopters and procurement in the same post.

I wrote some more on this but every word was libellous - had to go! :D

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Didn't the MoD purchase a number of low time frames from SA a few years ago?

[Door Slider]

Yes, the MoD did buy a few SA airframes, not sure if they will ever hit the hanger floor beforet the Puma is retired.
NH90 please, why did we buy more Lynx??
The Puma has been used all across the world and has been a reliable and robust platform while other types have been out of there depth. She is still heavily involved in ops across the globe, currently operating on 3 continents!

[airborne_artist]

Anorakky question I know, but why is the BLUH a helicopter, while the SCMR is a rotorcraft?

Is it just that the Dk Blue think they are more h'educated than wearers of khaki?

Or could it be that the SCMR might be an autogyro?

[c-bert]

V-22 Osprey is a rotorcraft....

[212man]

I guess the EC-725 is too obvious?

[NURSE]

NH90 would be an obvious choice.
more merlins/chinooks to reduce types in service.

[SASless]

One would think the Blackhawk would be the right answer....just as the Apache was for the attack aircraft.

Mind you....by the time you get through tinkering with it, we will all be in our graves feeding worms....if the Apache purchase or the Chinook avionics fit is indicative of how it will go.

[[email protected]]

Airborne Artist - some staff officer somewhere decided that project teams shouldn't be constrained by the word helicopter - even though the world knows that whatever we buy it will be a helicopter - they were dealing in 'capability' and 'platform' concepts, disappearing up their own jacksies doing masses of nugatory staff work because there is no money to buy whatever they eventually come up with.

[Hueymeister]

If the NH90 is to be a serious contender then make sure it's the taller cabin version (that the Noggies etc are going for), without the ramp (adds too much weight). The Germans are going for commonality with all 3 services, ie short cabins to fit on ships for the Marine, but the machine is vastly over weight, u/c is short enough that the rather gucci £7 000 strobe has only 5cm ground clearance - in the hangar!!- the all singing all dancing CSAR cab that the Luftwaffe/Heer are getting will cost a cool Euro 35mill+ and the normal cab will run at between Euro 25mill and 28mill - so not much different from the HC3, with less capacity.

[bockywocky]

Hueymeister,

Sorry to correct you, but what you are saying is not true...

The lowest clearance on the NH90 is 11 cm for the NFH and 18 cm for the TTH you are talking about.

The high cabin version is on the inside about 23 cm higher than the standard 1m58, but remember that for operating on board of ships and even on land the higher CG is a disadvantage (think about all the Puma's that were lost due to dynamic rollovers...).

You might also be surprised about how small in some area's the difference between the Puma and the NH90 is (build by Eurocopter, you will for instance see that the tank groups and the fuel control panel are almost the same).

And if you are talking about UK build NH90's: think about the partners that build the NH90: Eurocopter, Agusta-Westland and Fokker. It is the Agusta-Westland part that would make that possible...

:D

By the way, the price you are claiming is also not correct; they are less than EUR 20 mil...

[Two's in]

The price, operating characteristics, and dimensions are largely academic. Unless you had failed to notice, the purpose of all these studies is to prove conclusively that:

a) The UK MoD couldn't come up with a catchy acronym if their index linked pensions depended upon it.

b) If you keep changing the study name, people don't realize you are trying to flog the same dodgy goods (like Blackbushe market, but without the quality).

c) By keeping inter-service rivalry alive and well, no-one gets around to targeting the real inept procurement practices that would make a Russian State official blush.

"DPA, Yesterday's equipment for tomorrows battle" - Now that's catchy.

[Hueymeister]

Bocky,

We had the TTH in the hangar....and we measured it...the TP gave us the warts and all on the cab. He loved it and it will be a capable platform..when it eventually gets through the development phase. As for the price, that's the end price that the Bundeswehr is paying for the cabs....got that from Le Bourget and from NHI. 20 mill won't buy you much..maybe that's the price you cloggies are paying for the very basic airframe.

ps I'm no expert on this..just a passing interest!!

[MaroonMan4]

The rumour (and it is only rumour on a rumour network) is that NH 90 will be the 'one stop shop' encompassing both the BLUH and SCMR capabilities as will as satisfying some of the NAOs damning report on lack of lift.

The word on the street is that yes we (MoD Plc) are that broke that we are having to cut significantly our expectations. This has been assisted politically by NH 90 being built in Yeovil, preserving a number of jobs.

At the higher levels in the Joint arena this is also being received well as NH 90 (traditionally an SH/Combat Service Support asset) will have a Find capability and integrate into a Formation ISTAR/C4ISR plan. All of the NH 90 will have the LRUs for the various roles, but the sights, weapon hard points, seating etc will form part of the role equipment (bit like another SH type conducting an operational ISTAR role).

The RAF in particular love this concept and are supporting 110% as they see another way to nail the AAC out of the picture. The thin end of the wedge will be allowing NCO pilots to fly NH 90 in the SH and ISTAR role, next step will be to commission them (as per the RN's 847 NAS template, and then before you know it-thank you very much, no requirement for teeny weenie airways as 48 frontline Apache doesn't really warrant having a Corps. Does it?

Just rumour remember!

;)

[mutleyfour]

MAROONMAN

You blasphemour...AAC to be swallowed into the RAF...heres a novel idea..let the RAF be disolved into the Army and we'll call it the...

Royal Flying Corps.. Winston Churchill would have loved that.

[Role1a]

Harping back to door slider

No Tail Wheel(s) no vote

R1a

[MaroonMan4]

Mutley,

I am beyond inter Service willing waving and dont really care what happens, as long as the capability is provided it doesn't really matter.

However, if NH 90 is selected it will only fill a small proportion of the RAF fleet (e.g. Pumas) but especially with the latest downsizing of the AAC's Lynx fleet the numbers just dont add up and as I said purely based on numbers (not egos, or history, or who picks up the most in South Armagh myths) then only 48 AH does not warrant a Corps.

That is a waste for the sake of a cap badge surely when at the shop floor the aircrew do not actually dont care that much, especially if you talk to the Air Corps crews who are so envious of the resources put into a proper Air Station to support flying operations - established Ops Branch, Int Branch etc etc rather than L/Cpl Snodgrass on their last few months in uniform lemoned into Flt Ops for only 8 hrs a day (but what about beyond the 8 hr day I hear you ask!)

Mutley - stop hanging on to a dream. Do you really think the AAC has the infrastructure to support CH47s, NH90, Merlin, AH.

Honestly look your self in the mirror before you give an answer - or just plead the fifth amendment!

:ok:

[southside]

I Dont think that the NH90 will fulfill the requirement of SCMR. Im happy that WHL will provide a perfectly adequate beast in the shape of F.Lynx.

[Low Ball]

I know this is little to do with a Puma replacement but FLynx seems to be getting an airing in this thread.

What a pity that FLynx seems to be much the same as the present one with a cabin that is too small to take a standard army stretcher. Whatever happen to Lynx III which had an 18" plug in the cabin area and the WG 30 tail boom. OK it had cr@ppy engines but we have the technolony now for better ones. If ever a helicopter looked right the Lynx III did and how useful would the larger cabin have been.

MM4

Of course the AAC could manage NH90/Merlin et al you just have to throw resources (manpower and money) at the problem and if the RAF are not getting them then the AAC do - nuff said

[VP959]

Low Ball,

Shame that the BRH capability requirement (BLUH was cancelled effectively about 18 months ago) doesn't seem to feature carrying a NATO stretcher high on the list...........

The stretched Lynx cab was a complete non starter, fo a host of very good technical reasons not associated with engine power or gearbox limitations.

Customer one for BRH wanted a recce platform, first and foremost, not a light utility one. I think that he's barking, personally, as having done a fair bit of work looking at load requirements there seems to be a very real need for a light, multi role, jack-of-all-trades, like FLynx. The previous DAAvn agreed with me a year or so ago and even went so far as to get some load analysis on all Telic in-theatre taskings, just to see what the real breakdown of load size/mass was in that type of op.

I know that being lighter and smaller than some other contenders compromises some tasks, but with the greatly increased performance from the new engine, plus greater range courtesy of the external tanks, FLynx really is a pretty good all-rounder at the light end of things.

Finally, if the answer was to be a 10 tonne beast, it would almost certainly sound the death knoll for the Corps...............

[MaroonMan4]

Junglie,

I agree that in the current financial climate that extending life of Puma (as per Sea King) would be the bean counters (and hence Staff Officer looking to continue his/her career) chosen option.

However, unlike the re-engining and Carston Blades option for the Sea King I was under the impression that Puma had well and truly gone past its sell by date and that it was not cost efficient to continue in keeping the Puma capabiltiy going.

It is my understanding that this is why the whole FASH/SABR/BLUH/SCMR/FRC renaming fiasco was taking place to hide the fact that something needed to be done without any money in the pot to fund, therefore just merge a whole load of capabilities into one and accept that although a 'jack of all trades' no one will be satisified (realisation of a resource driven capabilty).

As you have alluded to, politically the only stumbling block was the AWHL and the whole pay back thing if FLynx was not secured by the Govt. Hence the early announcement that FLynx had been selected as the main contender before the normal Procure process had taken place.

However, as the numbers start to reduce (especially if the Army does not require as many BRH) then the validity of the FLynx production line is looking in jepordy. Closely linked to this is that FLynx goes nowhere near trying to satisfy the damning lack of lift capability that keeps on dogging an Armed Forces that regularly spouts/publishes a Doctrine of Air Manoeuvre and the 'Manoeuverist Approach'.

Therefore, once it was agreed that AWHL would be happy to accept that instead of a FLynx contract they would accept a build under licence of NH 90 (as well as other sops to their CEO including EH101 Presedential selection, MTADS for AH etc etc).

And therefore no one has the 'Rolls Royce' 'Gucci' capability that all those Staff officers worked on for years and years and years in attempt to get it right for their Service. Instead, the Treasury has forced a 'jack of all trades' that politically has kept the Govt looking good in the public eye by satisfying the FRC requirement - i.e. Find function (albeit by changing names and goal posts) also rectifying some of the lift capability-FLynx couldn't lift much and also probably mosrt important of all was that AWHL weren't going to be paid huge sums of money for a contract that although announced in Parlt wasn't going to happen - again the management of AWHL are happy and also jobs for Yeovil are secured.

Now Junglie, what are the plans for the Puma - can they really extend it on until 2013 - 2018?

[TBSG]

Some on this thread have missed the entire point of BRH. Lift is best done by large helicopters. Medium is the next best compromise. The reason BLUH fell apart is that OA proved that small helicopters should not "do" lift as it is not cost-effective. Hence the need for a small,agile, recce helicopter. Whether FLynx will fit the bill remains to be seen - but it's as good as anything else out there for the money.

And whoever really thinks that UAVs are the answer to battlefield recce needs their head examined.

[EESDL]

Doorslider
Sorry, couldnt let your comment pass..............
'Pumas reliable'
what are you comparing them too?
The one on the ground in Monaghan perhaps!

[VP959]

TBSG: "The reason BLUH fell apart is that OA proved that small helicopters should not "do" lift as it is not cost-effective. Hence the need for a small,agile, recce helicopter."

Que?

The reason the OA is not up to it is because BLUH was scrubbed and replaced by BRH. The requirement for quite a few multi-role, light utility cabs is pretty much proven; that for as many pure recce cabs less so. The BLUH OA was just about OK against the BLUH URD. The BRH OA is a little less robust.

UAVs will do the job, but not yet. Current research (joint UK/US) shows that the required level of autonomous capability, primarily to provide effective decision making in a high threat environment for survival, won't really be available until about 2020.

I was told (by someone authoritative who knows) that the estimated time on task for a current generation UAV, operating in the worst case BRH environement, was about 30 seconds (time until it got shot down). A manned BRH survives better thanks to the capablility of the collective mass of AAC little grey cells in the front.

[MaroonMan4]

TBSG,

My dear chap, sadly you have missed the slant to this thread. Yes the majority of us wholeheartedly agree that the BRH capability should concentrate on its Find function to contribute to the ISTAR/C4ISR plan.

Equally so, lift should be provided by the best capability for both medium and heavy lift to rectify the findings of the NAO report.

One cannot ignore the political implications to a military decision, which sadly sees your previous OA and military judgement weighted against.

I am with you totally, if I was an SH bloke I would want more lift than an NH 90. If I was a recce mate then I would want less RCS, visual acuity and bodged sights and sensor suite than the 'role' equipment of a bolt on NH 90 option.

However, when things in the treasury are that bad and there are far greater forces at work than Fort Halsteads/DSTLs OA then NH 90 will provide the best compromise. What you AAC chappies have to do is stop fighting the whole Jointery bit and ensure that you are represented and informed on a truly purple way forward.

Sadly, if not then you will be quietly, but effectively just sidelined out of the debate and remember you only have a 1 star at the top of your tribal tree (although new JHC Comd is AAC 2 star, he must play the Joint 'best practices' card not only for credability, but also for the continuance of his career|!) the other 2 Services can continue to progress forward (albeit at a slower pace) even with the AAC dragging its heals in a bid to save its light blue beret and cap badge.

[VP959]

MaroonMan4 : "(although new JHC Comd is AAC 2 star, he must play the Joint 'best practices' card not only for credability, but also for the continuance of his career|!) "

Not to mention that the aforesaid person of short stature was the creator of BRH and the one who killed BLUH in his previous post................

[MaroonMan4]

Ah yes VP, how could I have forgotten to add that into the equation. However, one could argue that new job, new budget, new 'direction' from above.

But yes 2+2 does make 4

:D