What are we paying for?

[Devils Itch]

The "ATPL exams", I was told, were the most demanding part of the journey towards the dream job we are all chasing!

Are they hard.....YES.....But not in the sense that they should be.

Before starting the atpl ground school, I was under the impression that the exams would be demanding in the sense that there was a wealth of knowledge that I would have to learn in a relatively short period of time.

This part is certainly true, but it seems that although the knowledge is there to be learnt, one is far more likely to pass the exams if one has access to the exams before hand and has spent a day or so learning their a,b,c sequence.

Is it only me that is a bit worried that there are people passing the atpl exams based on there short term memory?

Also, I know we are all using feedback questions......but surely there is something wrong when pupils have seen the exam paper questions the day before?

That kind of takes the wind out of your sails. You have spent hours learning the rules, concepts etc, then on the day of the exam you learn from others that they didn’t bother with the hard graft, instead they learnt their, a, b, c's for the expected paper....which strangely enough appeared!

If I was going to give future atpl course seekers some advice it would be the following:

1- Buy decent manuals.......some schools will insist you fork out money on their manuals....yet during your time there you won't open three quarters of them.

2- Seriously consider distance learning. The way the exams are set up, distance learning would give you the required ability...not necessarily the knowledge though...to pass the exams. You will also be saving on living expenses etc.

3- Make friends with the people who have got pals at Oxford and Bristol......they seem to have the inside track as to what you can expect for the exams. (There are numerous rumours that somewhere along the line certain schools have had their wrists slapped for underhand dealings concerning the ATPL exams, which is something you don't want associated with......but should consider benefiting from)


Perhaps this is the result of commerce. To schools, each new intake of students is and intake of more money. So in the interest of a healthy cash flow they are structuring their courses on too short a time scale. And why not....under the current set up they can get away with it. Perhaps increasing the required teaching hours would bring knowledge back to the forefront of this professional qualification instead of short term memory.

Its unlikely A,B,C's are going to save you and your unlucky passengers in an emergency. Only a thought.

[hixton]

Are you regretting choosing the school you chose for your atpl?
I dont think remembering the order of the questions answers is at all possible, how many questions do you actually think is in the bank?
I also heard they move the order of the a,b,c`s around anyway.
And how about working out the nav questions? Surely you have to know the formulas not just recognise a question.

[OpenCirrus619]

I don't know about anyone else but, as one who finished a distance learning course (OK only CPL, not ATPL) recently I find the suggestion that:
a) Its somehow inferior
b) Cheating is involved
a little insulting. :*

Also, according to the post Bristol and Oxford are somehow cheating / getting early access to the papers. How come the school I went to (neither of the above) is getting the best results in the country then, if they are both getting previews of the papers?

Come to think of it this is also insulting to the folks at Gatwick. Whatever you may think of some of the decisions / edicts coming out of there I think this is an insult too far. (I must admit, personally, I've only ever got excellent service from the FCL folks there).

Finally I notice that "Devils Itch" only registered TODAY!!!! Not that this has any relevance on his/her views - just thought I'd make the observation.

OC619

[Devils Itch]

First off, the post was not written to attack any individual. It was written to provoke a debate on whether the ATPL exams have lost the respect they should demand.

I have a few friends that did there ATPL’s a while ago, and talking to them, it seems that they were exams to be feared! You had to learn everything and put in the effort and even then passing was notoriously difficult. There was no talk of question banks, feedback etc.

As to me referring to distance learning as inferior......actually I did not. In fact, I think you could learn more as you are responsible for reading and learning everything and not being encouraged to read only certain parts. If you read the post you would find that, had I to choose again, distance learning would be my choice. What I meant was that from listening to numerous students, it sounds as if it is possible to learn enough in the two weeks class room time before the exams to pass, even if you have not put in the work during the prior weeks.

Make no mistake, even at the full time course that I am attending, it is really in the last two to three weeks that the majority of learning is done. During the preceding 6-9 weeks, it seems to be a rush to turn pages and highlight certain sections. There is very little time spent discussing problem topics in the class room. This however does not mean that you don’t get help. The staff are always available to help on an individual basis. Its just the class room session are a bit rushed. Even the ground instructors have admitted to this.

Now, with regards to “Rumours”, I was told by a cgi that not so long ago a certain well known school had received a slap on the wrist as it had access to papers through a member of the ground school staff. And although they received the wrist slap, they did however manage to keep the acquired goods or so I have been told.

Regardless of the whether the story is totally and factually true or not…..it’s not the main point I was trying to get across. The main point is that there are some schools that “prepare” their students with better info on the exams than others and to take advantage of that….I would if I could.

And then we have the CAA. It seems a bit strange that everybody except them will admit that their question bank is out in the open.

I hope others reading the post will recognise it as a discussion about the perceived and actual standards of the ATPL's and not individual schools.

Sorry you didn’t OC619.

Out of curiosity, if the fact that I only registered today does not affect the relevance of the post, then why mention it? Sounds like a politician’s remark!

[floppyjock]

Im doing a CPL H distance learning at the moment and think the feed back questions are great as 95% of the subjects do not apply to helicopters. Why do I need to know about Kruger Flaps or Mach numbers. But I had to study it and get tested on it.

In theory I could fail my CPL H due to the lack of my fixed wing knowledge.

How would you fixed wing guys feel if you had to study and get questioned on Flapping to Equality, Rotating Swash Plates, or Vortex Ring etc to be able to fly a 747.

From my point of view, twos day learning the answers, do the exam then dump the crap and move on. Gets my vote.


Floppy

[Devils Itch]

I see where you are coming from, but it still gives weight to my opinion that the ATPL's are not what they used to be.

I have a few friends doing the the CPL h, and they don't need to learn all the fixed wing crap.

But to get back on the topic, you have to agree that it should'nt be that short term memory will get you a professional license. Its just another step away from the being a real captian and not just a fmc observer.

[Dude~]

Things were definately harder in the old days. If a candidate failed more than a certain number of exams, then they all had to be re-taken, even if a pass had already been obtained.

In addition, Gen Nav included sperical trigonometry as well as other laborious delights!

[Foz2]

Things were definately harder in the old days. If a candidate failed more than a certain number of exams, then they all had to be re-taken, even if a pass had already been obtained.

That is the case now. If you fail a subject 4 times then you have to retake the lot. I dont know what on earth Devils Itch is going on about - learn the abc's. Thats a total load of tosh and completely impossible. What is possible is knowing the feedback so you know what sort of questions might come up.

it sounds as if it is possible to learn enough in the two weeks class room time before the exams to pass, even if you have not put in the work during the prior weeks.

Rubbish. You need to be at least reasonably happy with the material before these last weeks.

The ATPLs are extremely hard work and be under no illusion, if you go into it thinking you can learn the order of the questions the day before (how this is done i have no idea) or just learn the feedback and not put the work in during the course then you will most likely fail. Some subjects are about learning feedback (air law) but most you have to have a decent knowledge before you start on the feedback. Even if you do scrape through the exams on feedback alone, what are you going to do when the Chief Pilot of an airline at an interview asks you to describe a difficult P of F concept to see if you know your stuff?

I think the exams are easier than they used to be, but they are quite hard enough for me thanks and im very glad they are all out of the way!

Foz

[scroggs]

The ATPL ground examinations have changed considerably over the years, most recently when we became part of the JAA system.

Originally, they were much more conventional examinations, where your knowlege was tested in depth and where multiple-choice answers had yet to be utilised. In those days penalty marking was used - any questions wrongly answered got you negative marks, yet the pass mark was the same 75%. Were they more difficult? Probably, but it's no good harking back to was used to be.

You have to deal with the system as it is, not how you'd like it to be. Whether you like it or not, the multiple-choice technique is here to stay, and the input of various JAA countries means that some questions may be of questionable relevance to UK students. It's also true that you will forget much of what you have learned in the months after the exams, only retaining that which you need for subsequent flying training courses.

Like most exam systems, the exams do not of themselves qualify you to be a professional pilot, they only give you the permission to begin the long and arduous process of becoming a professional pilot. If you like, they are like the 11+ that get you into the flying 'grammar school'. You still have to pass many more, and more difficult, exams in the following few years.

Scroggs

[Piltdown Man]

What are we paying for? I wonder. I wish the exams were on Home economics (including cookery), Car Maintenance, Decorating, Writing quickly in small boxes in dim light and Hacking into Pay-TV. Then you could be a really useful pilot (but I thought Met and Air Law was useful).

[VFE]

Granted the ATPL examination system has it's faults in that you only ever probably use about 12% (not my figures) of the knowledge during your flying career but is this thread a wind up? It would be easier to memorise the theory to pass the exams than the letters of the answers! How absurd to suggest some candidates actually do this! Have you actually sat your exams yet Devils Itch? If not I suggest you start studying instead of mucking about on the internet! ;)

The ATPL's are 90% memory exercise and 10% technical aptitude. As Scroggs said, in the old CAA days with negative marking it was probably much harder and during the bedding in years of JAA no school had a clue how to prepare their students until the first few guinea pig sittings had fallen at the first....

The ratio swings the other way when you get onto the flying exams (which many students often find harder) as you are trained how to multitask. Ground instructors say the ATPL's are the hardest part to give their role more gravitas IMHO and ease the prospect of harder things to come.... http://www.blastwaves.com/motorforum/images/smiles/eusa_silenced.gif

Wait until you're on a second attempt at the IR with no money left or getting closed doors everyday when applying for non existant jobs or perhaps working through the night hours on a type rating! :}

VFE.

[IRRenewal]

In those days penalty marking was used - any questions wrongly answered got you negative marks, yet the pass mark was the same 75%You're sure scroggs? Thought is was 70%, with negative marks at 1/3rd the positive marks. So a current pass at 75% would give you 75 - (.333*25) = 66.7% under the old system.

[Piltdown Man]

There's a bit missing here... 70% mark is net, not gross. If penalty marking is at 1.3333 then if you answered all the questions, you had to get less than 22 questions wrong per hundred to walk away with a pass. The temptation was to tick the bloody boxes...

[Buy one get one free]

Historically with the CAA when penalty marking was used, you lost 1/3 of the value of the question for an incorrect answer in the NAV block papers, and 1/2 in the TECH block papers.
Pass mark 70%. Cannot recall the deduction in the associated papers - the performance paper, usually perf A; and was it loading as well??

Latterly besides stopping the penalty marking and increasing the passmark to 75%, the "associated papers" went, and were absorbed into the main blocks.

Options tech exams such as: gas turbines, AC electrics became part of engines and electrics.

Still having to jump through the hoops, and the amount you will really need to retain in small.

[High Wing Drifter]

VFE,
Granted the ATPL examination system has it's faults in that you only ever probably use about 12%
I really disagree with this view. How can a pilot get along with knowing the law, how to predict and interpret met information, how a CSU functions, what happens if the static port is blocked, what the predictable instrument errors are, how hydraulics function, when a tyre is illegal, ILS limits, recognising stress & fatigue, etc, etc, etc.

Personally, I couldn't imagine getting along without Instruments & Systems, Gen and Rad Nav, Air Law and Met. A good proportion of the ATPLs are relevant to PPL flying never mind CPL/IR. I even find dollops of Human Factors relevant to the business world, never mind flying. The COMMs subjects are useful if only for highlighting gaps (however small) in knowledge.

[OpenCirrus619]

DI,

Oops, guess I really got the point of your post wrong - my apologies. :\

OC 619

P.S. Must write 100 times "Don't post on forums after Friday lunches"

[eason67]

The reasons the exams are in the format they are is because it is cheaper.
Exams are multiple choice and marked using SMS computers. It take about 5 seconds and anyone can do tis, therefore costs are kept down.
If the old system was retained then a well qualified and knowledgeable pilot would be required to mark and analyse the workings as they were also considered too.
Believe it or not, ground instructors are not ten a penny when it comes to stuff like PoF, Performance and Gen Nav, met etc... So how the hell would the CAA find any to mark them.
Also, there is no debate, (or very little anyhow). Its either right or wrong. This saves appeal time, although therre are still appeals.

Its swings and roundabouts ladies and gentlemen!!

The old system wasnt any harder. At least then your working out counted and marks were given for that. Fair enought about negative marking but thats just daft doing that!

As for the groundschools, Bristol have been going for years and base all their feedback on what their students tell them. If you've been operating that long then you will have a pretty good idea of the questions being asked.
When I went there, it was hard work for the full two weeks and we covered EVERYTHING!!(apart from pussy areas such as Comms, ).

The question bank is not that big in some subjects areas too!!

I heard of someone buying the full bank off the internet but that is just a rumour for me.

The system wont change anyway, unless a cheaper method is found, and you can bet on that!!


:uhoh:

[VFE]

Reply to High Wing Drifter:

Well 12% is perhaps an over exaggeration (as I said not my figures) but the point is that much of the sillybus [sic] is of little use to many future pilots in that the way the exams are tested does not test knowledge in a relevant context. The endless questions in the Airframes/Systems paper on colour codes of fire extinguishers and safety equipment is covered much later in airline conversion courses, why test it at that stage? They ask for pointless figures that are more a memory test than anything useful in a crisis and it is this almost bloody minded mentality which irks most working within the training system, rather than assessing good sound theory knowledge with questions posing possible scenarios.

As far as I can recall the meteorology paper came closest to this however we were still let down by the fact we had to know stupid crap like the dimensions of the different varieties of precipitation. Perhaps things have since changed?

I aggree that I've used ATPL knowledge in my private flying and it is suprising when that formula for aquaplaning comes in handy during a C152 approach to an airfield in drizzle but you must admit the relevant stuff most PPLers need gets covered during the PPL training.... unless of course the pilot went integrated without already being in possession of a PPL, in which case they cannot fly privately on the professional licence they graduated with until they recieve further training from a flying club anyway......

Shall we up the figure to 20% then? ;)

VFE.

[High Wing Drifter]

VFE,

however we were still let down by the fact we had to know stupid crap like the dimensions of the different varieties of precipitation
Precip size is related to cloud type and clear icing risk. There is little value to saying small, medium and large so I guess they went for the mm range. A pain in the butt, but still usable information...if you remeber it.

Just so I don't appear as some kind of uber nerd, I just looked it up :O

[VFE]

Well I just remember drizzle being fine, light rain being slightly fatter, medium rain fatter still and so on.... the exact measurements of the precipitation don't really figure in my mind when I look outside the window at a cloud and ponder the potential icing conditions resulting from the type of precipitation I am likely to encounter - you just know that heavier rain is more of a risk etc.....

They are being anal.

VFE.

[FlyingForFun]

Have to admit that I've been watching weather forecasts on tv for years, and when the forecaster has spoken of "drizzle" I've always known what they meant without needing it to be defined in terms of the size of the droplets in mm.....

Just the same as I've been reading maps for years (mainly road maps at first, aviation charts later on) without knowing what a Lamberts Connical Projection is. In fact, I can barely remember what it is now - I'd have to get my text books out to be certain of remembering correctly - but I use aviation charts every day at work and haven't managed to get lost yet.

The real proof that much of the syllabus is not needed is to look at the FAA and other foreign ATP holders who have thousands of hours flying all kinds of heavy metal perfectly safely and efficiently, but have never come across a large portion of the stuff that they need to learn to convert their license to JAR.

But, that aside, the exams have to be passed. And that means the subjects need to be learnt. To suggest that it's possible to learn the A,B,C answers to the entire question bank is, I'm afraid, ludicrous.

There are subjects such as Air Law which can only really be learnt by studying feedback questions. That is because, by its very nature, it is a subject which consists of lots of independant facts to be commited to memory. But for most subjects, the only way of passing is to have at least a reasonable understanding of the subject, and then to use the feedback questions to help understand the format of the questions they are likely to ask you and any common tricks and nasties, so that the questions in the exams don't come as a complete surprise.

FFF
--------------

[High Wing Drifter]

Let's not get hung up on the mm issue. VFE said size doesn't matter!

Well, what do I know? Maybe I am over egging it, I dunno. Regardless, I quite like the fact that I have at least a grounding on a broad range of flying related subjects. I can easily forgive the odd strange question.