Did Schappelle Corby Fly QF to Bali?

[Sunfish]

If so, or if QF's baggage handlers dealt with her luggage, why didn't Mr. Dixon speak up about the criminal proclivities of his staff?

After all, he new about them according to the ABC:-

"But what I can say is that we have had for many months, and continue to have full knowledge, of the activities of those baggage handlers alleged to be involved."

Why didn't Dixon speak up?

[rammel]

From the stories and reports I've seen she flew with Australian Airlines from Sydney. I'm not sure if she used AO from BNE to SYD or if it was QF. Also the ground handling for AO is done by QF.

[sling load]

Sunfish,
Geoff Dixon was probably unable to speak up whilst the investigation was underway by the AFP, it would have alerted the other fellows to destroy evidence etc

[Ron & Edna Johns]

I've always considered the possibility the weed found in Corby's bag was intended as a distraction - in DPS. In other words the stash was actually put in her bag in DPS airport to deflect interest/attention away from a bigger, more important shipment leaving DPS.

Frankly, the movement of stash BNE-SYD via air has seemed dubious to me. Safer to chuck it in the back of a car and drive it interstate. But now.... in light of my first paragraph and the relevations today of cocaine smuggling at SYD on the same day Corby flew, perhaps "her" stash was intended as a distraction at SYD airport? And it accidently got stowed in an outbound bag instead of an inbound bag?

Who really knows? All I know for sure is that when you have NO CONTROL over your bags for hours, there are too many unsavoury possibilities.

Meanwhile I'll continue to show the f#@K!#g PAPER FLIGHT-PLAN to security einsteins as I pass through the beep-box because they insist on verifying its not something I'm going to use to take over the aircraft..... And no, I didn't go beep!!! :yuk:

[Super Cecil]

There is a chance, remote or not she actually did take stuff in with her?

[ratpoison]

Cecil,

Yeah, just throw it on top of a boogy board and leave it unlocked, then pick it up at the other end. !!! Yeah right.

[bekolblockage]

There is a chance, remote or not she actually did take stuff in with her?

Does that come under the definition of "beyond reasonable doubt" or don't they bother with those niceties in Bali?

[Super Cecil]

Bowelblockage, if you had been taking notice you'd know.

People in the legal system in this country (not shock jocks or watercooler experts) have commented on the almost non existent defence, due to lack of evidence to defend or incompetence?

[RPPT]

ratpoison,

Yeah, just wrap it around your waist and/or thigh, throw a t-shirt and a pair of shorts over the top, go to an Indonesian airport with a few mates who've done exactly the same thing, then un-wrap it at the other end!!! Yeah right.

[OhForSure]

Ya... but the scariest part of this whole thing is that everybody seems to be missing the point:

Everytime you turn on the news you hear of some Aussie/Drug related story! Don't get me wrong I applaud the authorities for catching whoever they can... but honestly if we are hearing of THIS many cases of people getting caught... just for a moment here think of how many are getting away with it! In order for this many people to be caught there must be a $HITLOAD of drugs coming in and out (mainly in) of this country right now.

-Then there was the report I heard on the radio that Aussies use more drugs per capita than Yanks, Poms and Europeans!!! What's happening to our country?!?!?!?!

Food for thought I guess.:confused:

[bekolblockage]

Where does this logic break down?

At check-in:
Is this your bag madam? Yes
Did you pack it yourself? Yes
Has it been out of your sight? No

At customs on arrival:
Is this your bag madam? Yes
Did you pack it yourself? Yes
Has it been out of your sight? Yes - for about 8 hours!

Sorry you're nicked. WTF?:yuk:

[Ron & Edna Johns]

Here is an incredible thing which I am only just learning about. Here's a quote about where the burden of proof lies (ie, is it with the prosecutor or the defendant) when it comes to the charge of Trafficking drugs:

“Trafficable Quantity”

If a person is found in possession of a trafficable quantity of a drug of dependence then this is prima facie evidence of trafficking. In this case the person is not likely to be charged with possession, but with the more serious offence of trafficking. This would place the burden of proof on the defendant to establish that the drug was not in his or her possession for the purposes of sale.

What jurisdiction does this apply in and where is the quote from??

Answer: the State of Victoria and here is the website for the quote:

http://www.aussielegal.com.au/

(For some reason the direct link won't work, so click on "Criminal Law", then on "Drug Offences VIC", scroll about 1/3 to 1/2 the way down, and there it is).

Incredible, huh? If you are caught trafficking drugs into Melbourne airport, the burden of proof is on you to prove your innocence.

And apparently the situation in Indonesia is exactly the same......

[Jenna Talia]

Ron & Edna,

It is also the same in NSW and I assume all states and also most western countries overseas.

The concept being that if someone is caught with a large & substantial amount of illegal drugs over a certain amount, then it is deemed as commercial quantity for the purpose of sale, unless they can prove otherwise.

AS SO IT SHOULD BE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[404 Titan]

Ron & Edna Johns
Incredible, huh? If you are caught trafficking drugs into Melbourne airport, the burden of proof is on you to prove your innocence.
No, I think you will find that you are still presumed innocent until proven guilty. What the law is saying is that you must prove that the drugs weren’t for sale as distinct from personal use which the lower charge of possession would entail.

[scrubed]

If everybody's doing it - importing weed, smack and **** - then why not just make it legal...???

Everyone bong on and have a good time. We can all get along.

Bloody indos get off on locking up Aussies just because we kicked their asses outa E.T. and also snotted them in the 60s in Malaya.

[flugenluft]

I'm with you scrubed, it was just a bit of weed. It would seem our northern brothers don't see it that way.

Didn't we give them AU$1bn recently?

As for the so called "Bali 9", well......... heroin is terribly destructive, the Indo's can keep those ferals as long as they like.

[Angle of Attack]

This case interests me, due to the fact that everyone seems to have an opinion on whether she is guilty or not. (Most say shes not gulity) Ignoring the legal system, of Indonesia it just amazes me, how can anyone know whether she is guilty or not? The more important point is the subtle persuasive power the media is attaining particularly since 9/11 and the so called war on terror started. This is the most worrying thing I'm finding these days, and the worst thing is most people dont even realise it! some others have called it propoganda in the past. ( But of course propoganda never occurs in your own country! Just ask the germans during WW2) Now before you start locking on your nuclear arsenal on my post, No Im not saying this is a big conspiracy or comparing it to Nazi Germany or whatever! Just food for thought. Yes it is just a bit of weed, but this is another country, and hopefully you realise different offences can be far more severe or benign depending on where you are in this world. Go and burn the Koran in an islam country (you'd probablty be shot!) but here would not be too severe. On the other hand go and stone your wife in public for adultery in a shopping mall in Sydney! (but prob would be ok in Pakistan or Saudi) I'm not conveying a particular opinion on whether laws are right or wrong, but one thing is we should respect the legal system of each individual country. Having said all this I believe after Corby's case has been decided ( it will be guilty) info should be shared and investigated by a seperate aussie legal team, but as if that will happen, maybe Im in fantasy land!

[flugenluft]

I accept your point.

Agreed.

[Jamair]

Not any kinda expert on the subject, but wouldn't exporting drugs from Aust to Bali be akin to exporting sand from Aust to Iraq?

4kg of weed here would have to be $40+K AUD, but worth what, $4K AUD over there??

Isn't that part of the reason some of the younger generation actually go there?

[HotDog]

I'm led to believe the local weed is cr@p and there is a good market for quality stuff amongst the backpackers.

[Keg]

it just amazes me, how can anyone know whether she is guilty or not?

The question is whether there is 'reasonable doubt'. Given the recent goings on with various baggage handlers, I reckon there is. I also have a couple of sources that suggest that there is a very good reason to believe that there is reasonable doubt.

[Chris Higgins]

Yeah, if they can get a camel costume out of somebody's bag, they can certainly sneak pot in.

[Kanga767]

The question is whether there is 'reasonable doubt'.

I could not agree more with you Keg. However, I fear Indonesian Law does not operate in this way. In fact, it seems to be, 'Gulity unless you can prove your innocence.'

As has been emphasised elsewhere on Pprune, how can someone be potentialy put to death on the contents of something that has not been in that person's custody for hours AND which at the same time is able to be accessed by other persons??

By the way, generally it looks like it would be very awkward to prove innocence when the defence probably does not have access to the evidence. In Australia, you are innocent until proven guilty. The Prosecution has the evidence and presents it to prove guilt. Therefore, where you are guilty until proven innocent, shouldn't the defence have the evidence in order to present its case? Of course it wouldn't work that way would it?


K

[gaunty]

Keg and Kanga

This is a really tough one no?

The rock on which our Rule of Law and the foundation of our Western civilisation is built on the principle that you are innocent up to the very nanosecond that a jury of your peers pronounces you guilty.

The Indonesian way is different but it is theirs at the current evolution of thier society.

I was working in Singapore shortly after Lee came to power and there when he applied the death penalty and closed down the nighclubs.
He also applied the "duck" principle to anyone seeking entry to the country.
If you turned up with long hair below the collar, rose pink sunnys, jeans, beads and a flower in your hair, you were politely advised to go to the barbers down the hall for a number 2, ditch the sunnies and beads and to dress "appropriately" lest you be refused entry.
Civil rights in what looked like a Western society were what Lee allowed his Judges to apply. I don't think all that much has changed. There was then maybe and may still be a case for a benevolent dictatorship, similar to what we see in Indonesia until their society can mature to the levels that has ours since the Magna Carta of 1215.

I suspect Australians have fallen into the habit of talking about their Bali, have lulled themselves into thinking that Bali is just an friendly extension of Australia and taken liberties with another countries law and culture that they would not tolerate in their own.

I don't think any of us would disagree that for every "innocent" in Bali there are many thousands who are not, but would all in the face of death cry foul.
The Judge himself said he's "seen it all before" and that "he is only concerned with the evidence" not personal pleas.
If they convict their own people on the same standard of evidence why should we be treated any differently.

Lesson 1, rightly or wrongly, Lee acted decisively and left no doubts whatsoever about the consequences, witness an execution of a local last week for trying to bring in 1kg of marijuana from Malaysia.

A duck is a duck.

Lesson 2, given this, recent events at Sydney and the long history of airports like Theifrow there has to be an international convention on the custody of baggage by airlines. They wont do it on their own their passengers will have to jack up first.

"Did you pack your own bag and has it been in your personal possesion since" might be principally aimed at security, but have taken on a whole new meaning.

There is a small but growing market in high integrity security packaging of baggage, perhaps we should insist the airlines provide it at checkout as a matter of course.

Inconvenient??? so is death by firing squad.:{

My money says that whether we like it or not in the context of their society and the problems they have with drugs and the commitment they have made to stamping out of corruption the Judge has very narrow options available to him, life at least.

[the mustang ranch]

australia should send in a sqaudron of F111s if we can get that many serviceable at once and carpet bomb jarkarter or how ever you spell that s:mad: thole as a diversion- then at the same time send in the SAS to rescue corby --sounds crazy -well it will make a good movie and lucky john howard a ledgend-

on a serious note- i hope corby gets found not guilty

[Ron & Edna Johns]

gaunty,

With respect, I believe you're incorrect about "the rock". Have a read of my post on the previous page. Trafficking is a "strict liability" crime, in that liability is imposed (on a defendant) with out having to prove a mens rea, which means "a guilty mind". Further, having a quantity of stash greater than a certain amount is considered a prima facie case of trafficking - that means a case supported by sufficent evidence for it to be taken as proved in the absence of adequate evidence to the contrary. A defence is that the accused can show he/she had no reason to know/suspect certain facts (e.g. that the stash was there). Note carefully where the burden of proof lies.

What jurisdiction am I talking about? The State of Victoria, Australia. And I understand Indonesia is just like Australia in this respect. In both countries the burden of proof is reversed as we think of it - the defence has to basically prove innocence.

I'm no lawyer but have been studying the law in relation to the Corby situation. And it's amazing what you find when you poke around. Just type the name "Chika Honda" into Google and read that incredible story of a similar situation, but in reverse... a Japanese girl busted here in Australia.....

So when you think about all that, it shows what a difficult situation Corby is in, how hard it is for the defence team to get her off. Things to attempt to prove innocence just don't seem to have been done - fingerprinting the stash, analysis of where it came from, polygraph testing. You can't prove innocence just by saying "I didn't do it" or "I want to go home" or "I don't know how long I can last here". Sadly that just isn't good enough.

[OhForSure]

Ron Edna ... mate, that is spot on.

[Three Bars]

A few thoughts on a very interesting topic:

1) If Shapelle Corby is truly guilty, then she is the greatest actress Australia has ever produced and should have a lucrative career in acting after her release.

2) If our PM has written a letter to their President about the matter, then he must be equally concerned about natural justice in this case.

3) The question of burden of proof seems to be a legal minefield if what Ron & Edna says is universally applied. In the USA for example, there is now a market for baggage locks that are approved by the Department of Transport Security (or somesuch). Travellers who do not fit these locks may have their bages broken open as part of a security check. If other travellers are then leaving their luggage unlocked deliberately (to avoid damage to luggage) how would they fare if drugs were planted in their bags?

Finally, I remember the F/O that I once flew with to Europe was telling me what his friend (a lawyer) suggested should be the response if questioned by security/customs/police (without a lawyer being present).

Q: Is this your signature?
A: It appears to be my signature.

Q: Is this your suitcase?
A: It resembles my suitcase.

Q: Do you know what is in your suitcase?
A: I know what was in it when I packed it - I don't know what might be in it now.

It was quite funny at the time making up such exchanges, but it would seem that it could now be a very serious situation indeed.

[hadagutful]

Reading these posts one can see there is quite a bit of emotion attached to all this and so there should be.

I think there is a lot of seething anger out there in Aussieland over the possibility of Ms. Corby being completely innocent. What a nightmare for someone to go through.
Look nobody knows whether she is guilty or innocent except her. The point is, has she had a fair trial?
I don't believe so because the burden of proof is on her,
i.e. you are guilty unless proven innocent.
It appears the defence hasn't been able to place the full facts before the court and there is no jury system.
There are only 3 "judges" and they are bound by the Indonesian legal system, not our Westminster system.

I believe with what is going on in Australia at present with the baggage security situation and drug trafficking that there is no way that she can be found guilty beyond reasonable doubt.
But unfortunately she is at the mercy of a totally different legal system.

Now the so called "Bali 9", that is a different situation, they were quite clearly found with the contraband strapped to their bodies.

[tinpis]

This (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,15300434%255E2702,00.html) may help the judges save face.

[Beer Can Dreaming]

Tinpis - the judges have already read the letter from our PM and responded accordingly.
In their own words "it will not change our opinion".
I take that as meaning they made up their own minds.

From my brother and sister-in-law that were sitting behind Ms Corby on that AO flight, she was supposedly agitated and confrontational to another passenger and was displaying "strange" behaviour.
After being spoken to by staff she apologised profusely but was still "in a state".

None of that has really anything to do with her guilt or innocence naturally but I found it interesting to hear none the less.
It's currently deemed politically incorrect and unpopular to even suggest that she just may be guilty but who really knows for sure?
What we want is for her to get a fair trial - nothing more and nothing less.

Yes, the Indonesian legal system is light years away from ours but when we step foot into their country we are subject to their systems and protocols.

Ms Corby may be let go or convicted and allowed to serve time in an Australian institution whilst the "Bali 9" are toast for all intents and purposes.

Let this all be a warning to anyone thinking of travelling offshore.

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

I seem to be in the minority here, but I can't help thinking that if Schapelle Corby was a 65 year old beatnik bloke instead of a vulnerable looker, then opinions would be more sharply divided over what degree of guilt there is here.

There is also a big streak of racism present.

Is she acting? I dunno. I'd be upset too if I was looking at a firing squad for an offence in Australia that would have been given a couple of years jail time at most. The thought that I'd probably have thrown my life away on a stupid naive act would get me upset as well.

The customs officers in Bali, despite the opinions of some here, are not idiots. She got picked out of line for a reason. Customs officer all around the world know how to spot fear.

To say that the dope more probably was being sent via highly insecure means from Brisbane to Sydney, and then got missed, is a stretch.

Just my opinion for what it is worth.

[Captain Can't]

Hot dog;
I'm led to believe the local weed is cr@p and there is a good market for quality stuff amongst the backpackers.
If the pot was never tested, how can one know if it is indeed high quality gear? but then again, it wouldn't be a bad assumption...

[QFBUSBOY]

I have heard thru the grapevine that .......... I should not post wild assumptions and allegations on PPRuNe as it p!sses off the Moderators!!!

:mad: :mad:

[mattathm]

I just walked past the door of Schappelles beauty shop, sign in window said "Back in 20"

:ok:

[Stink Finger]

I bought a new lawn mower today, it's a new model. A Victa Schapelle,it hold 4 kilos of grass and comes with a 20 year guarantee.

"I'm led to believe the local weed is cr@p", Uh huh, we've all heard this one before, so what did you say you did with my Pizza ?.

[tinpis]

If the pot was never tested, how can one know if it is indeed high quality gear? but then again, it wouldn't be a bad assumption...

Wayan ! Made ! Nyoman! Ketut ! hari up and test this stuff and make sure its good gear .
Theyre waiting for it in Kuta.

:hmm:

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

Apparently Sir Les Paterson was arrested in Bali for carrying 15 kilos of crack in his speedo's at Kuta. ;)

[tinpis]

From crikey.com :}

http://www.crikey.com.au/sealed/images/2005/05/31-10GQUAF9400.gif

[tinpis]

Right...whats the latest goss on this then?


http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y150/tinpis/perfume.jpg

[Animalclub]

Mr tin you is a sick puppy... but I have to say I laughed.

[The Voice]

my dear dear Tinny, I laughed and laughed and laughed .. you are a tonic some days!

[tinpis]

Yers....:hmm: wat is I on others?

[Pinky the pilot]

Laugh???? Of course I did!! And even saved it to my computer
"for future reference":ok:
I should be ashamed of myself.....(but I'm not!!)

You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.

[one25six]

I see a little photoshop flushed out the humanitarians amongst us.

So you think she is guilty as charged?

[tinpis]

I dont know .
But the Indonesians got a fair idea.

[Over and gout]

Yep. I think she did it.

It would have to have been a pretty big conspiricy for such a relatively small amount of dope to get planted like that.

Unless like someone else pointed out, it was planted as a diversion for something bigger coming through at the same time.

I guess no-one will ever know exactly what happened.....:suspect:

[tinpis]

It would have to have been a pretty big conspiricy for such a relatively small amount of dope to get planted like that

:hmm: Yeah ...4 keys is small?

Whats the haps in Perth these days my man?

[Point0Five]

My personal theory is that the drugs were put in the body board bag by her brother before they left, however Schappelle didn't know this at the time. She opens the bag at customs, is genuinely surprised by the contents... but also has a sneaking suspicion who they belong to.

At any rate, nothing is said as pointing the figure at her brother could well lead to him being executed.

Perhaps on25six could climb down from his high horse and shares his thoughts with the rest of us?

[Over and gout]

:hmm: Yeah ...4 keys is small?

Whats the haps in Perth these days my man?


wow I didn't know it was so much:eek:

I thought it was a couple of ounces....;)

Yeah 4 kg...thats quite a bit...

[maxgrad]

just blo0dy funny!
Is she or isn't she......buggered if I know.
Were there any dingo's involved?