New Virgin Check-In rules

[SilentHandover]

I thought that this may interest and inform some folks, received as an email from Virgin today.

'You have been telling us that whether you're travelling on business or going off on holiday, punctuality is really important. In response to that feedback, we recommend that if you are checking in at any of our airports worldwide you arrive 2-3 hours before your scheduled flight departure time to ensure that you have checked in your luggage and collected your boarding pass on time. Our check in facilities will close 60 minutes prior to the scheduled departure times of our flights. If you fail to complete check in procedures by this time you will not be able to travel.

Passengers using the check in options listed below will have to arrive at the airport at least 60 minutes prior to departure to collect their boarding pass and if necessary drop off bags. Our bag drop facility will close 60 minutes prior to the scheduled departure time of our flights. Passengers who have failed to drop their bags and collect their boarding card by this time will not be able to travel.

DIY Online check in (www.virgin.com/atlantic)
DIY Kiosk check in (currently available at London Heathrow)
Twilight check in (London Gatwick: opens at 12pm the day before departure)
Check In & Chill Out (Barbados, Antigua, Grenada, Tobago, St Lucia)
Check In at DOWNTOWN DISNEY©
For further details on all our check in facilities please go to www.virgin.com/atlantic and click on Manage Your Flights.

Best wishes

Virgin Atlantic '

ATB SH

[Final 3 Greens]

Excellent.

Tighten up the system and blame the pax for it.

Am travelling back from New York on Saturday night, better get there well in advance.

[Curious Pax]

At LHR at least they better get their act together so that people arriving 2+ hours before departure can actually get to the front of the check in queue by ETD-1! Otherwise there'll be riots!!

[Nigerian Expat Outlaw]

Very good (not). And one of their most crowded (and I'm sure lucrative) routes, LHR-LOS, is not on any DIY panel, so there is always a huge queue. Better make it 4+ hours for that one.....:*

NEO

[strake]

I was quite surprised to receive this e-mail today as well.

I have not experienced any serious departure delays with Virgin recently in fact, the opposite. My last two trips (Boston and Miami) have left London on-time only to have to wait anything up to 20mins to get a gate on arrival.

[WHBM]

This sort of PR gobbledygook trying to justify new restrictive regulations really hacks me off.

Isn't it strange that everyone told them departing 10 minutes late is an issue but having to get to the airport at a new earlier time is not.

If check-in closes 60 minutes before departure what does that mean ? No one new admitted to the queue after that time, or the desk itself is closed in the face of pax who have been queueing since well before the deadline ? As the usual cause of an extra-long queue is failure of the carrier to provide sufficient staff for check-in, or the computers going down at some time, or similar, how can pax who present themselves before the deadline be responsible for that.

I am FED UP with being constantly issued boarding cards which state if I don't get to the gate say 20 minutes before the flight I will be denied boarding, yet at ETD - 0.20 the gate staff have not even opened for business yet.

[Skylion]

Having started out in life as a bright, upbeat, " can-do" , customer orientated airline ,Virgin now seems to be heading towards being just another of the old fashioned " you will do as youre told", stern faced brigade. Shame. There can be no justification for a 3 hour check in time other than lack of resources provided by the airline and a 60 minute close-out is ridiculous. Its up to customers to show they dont like this sort of approach,- by any airline.

[Final 3 Greens]

Well, just had the worst check in experience EVER with VS at EWR.

I don't often fly with them and won't be bothering again in the future.

[surely not]

Skylion there is every justification for a -60 mins flight closure. These days all airlines have more and more PRE-departure paperwork to comply with for various agencies around the world who have got rid of their own staff as a cost saving, and put the responsibility onto the airlines. If the airlines get it wrong they just fine them and if they get it wrong often enough then they have the power to stop the airline flying into that country.

Then there are the security queues that now happen at peak times, brought about by increased security checks to prevent passengers gaining access to an aircraft with weapons. Yes I know they don't always get it right, but the process still slows things down and is outwith the airlines control. In many airports the security area is space restricted so additional resource is not an option.

Once through security there are the myriad of distractions in the departure areas, shops, food outlets, games rooms, internet cafes etc all distracting the passengers from keeping an eye on the time.

The distance to the gate once airside is often quite far resulting in a transit time of up to 15 mins in some airports at a brisk walking pace. Not every passenger realises this so the airline tries to ensure that they will leave enough time to get to the gate.

Boarding a full 747 will take around 20-25 minutes because once the passenger gets on board they relax and block the aisles for other passengers causing a queue back up the jetbridge.

Distances from the baggage make up areas to the aircraft are not getting shorter as airports expand. I know of airports where it would take 20 mins to get to the furthest stand if the loader driver stuck to the airside speed limit! From check-in to the baggage make up area can take bags as long as 7-8 minutes as they go through the system.

loading the bins takes around 20 minutes for a full flight. Bulk loaded isn't any faster.

Then there is the increasing amount of paperwork which has to be signed off before departure, a lot of it inspired by Govt depts who check that you are following their terrific rules to the letter.

So what do you do? You slag off an airline which is trying to get their flights away on time.

They have looked at the whole situation around a flight departure and decided that as they cannot control the passenger like a robot and pre programme them to turn up in an orderly fashion, they will advise them of the best way to help the airline achieve an on time departure.

I haven't checked your profile, but obviously you have **** all to do with ground ops otherwise you might have thought your reply through and made more sense.

Late pax to check-in and late pax to the gate are an increasing problem these days, and they are nearly always the most argumentative who are late because they cannot organise their day well enough.

I don't work for Virgin Atlantic, but I have worked at some major airports and the number of flights delayed by passengers arriving late is ridiculously high.

Rant over........going for a drink

[WHBM]

I fear there are some writing above who feel all pax are plonkers who deserve to be treated a such, while all those who devise rules for passengers to follow should be treated with infinite respect for wisdom.

However ...

Producing required documentation for a flight can be so straightforward if you put the right computer systems in place.

Airports such as London City with 10-minute check in (still !) give the lie to statements that times many times in excess of this are a necessary fact. It's all down to how you organise things.

If pax have to complete check in a couple of hours before departure they are MORE liikely, not less, to be distracted along the way. If I have to be there 3 hours beforehand and then find I get through check-in in minutes, I will leave the airport and go back to the office !

The big annoyance is being told that we must allow so much time and then finding that the airline has not organised itself in the same manner. After wasting their time more often than acceptable, regular passengers (remember us, the despised ones, we're the ones that eventually pay all the salaries) soon cotton on to the real procedures and recognise which is appropriate and which is bull$hit, and that what is purported to be for punctuality is actually more to do with reducing staffing levels at check-in to Ryanair levels.

[alangirvan]

So what will boarding times be like for A380s? Twin Aisles plus upstairs. How long will it take to load/unload bags?

[Skylion]

Challenging credentials is always risky and you are missing the point anyway. We all know what can and cant be done,- and it will vary from place to place and hour by hour. The important driver of whether an airline is truly in the service business is its attitude to problems, including infrastructure and both the substance and style of how it deals with them. A stern faced policing approach/tone of voice indicates a crossover from bright, new , can- do airline to a traditional much less attractive legacy carrier. It would be a shame if Virgin were to make that transition.

[SkySista]

If you fail to complete check in procedures by this time you will not be able to travel.

So are they going to take that literally???

If you get to the desk, plonk your bags down, and it ticks over to ETD -1, will the girl close the desk to your face???

Surely not....? :confused:

[WHBM]

I've been thinking this one through some more.

... you arrive 2-3 hours before your scheduled flight departure time to ensure that you have checked in your luggage and collected your boarding pass on time. Our check in facilities will close 60 minutes prior to the scheduled departure times
So they are saying that you should arrive at the desk 3 hours before departure because they close the desk one hour before. In other words they say you should plan to be just queueing, not even being served, at check-in for ONE TO TWO HOURS !!

Note this is all well before any security, the distractions of the shops, the long walk, and all the other reasons given above for why people are late to gate.

[surely not]

WHBM you do your argument a big disservice when you compare small, short haul intra european services from London City with the complex long haul flights operated by carriers such as Virgin. The provision of check-in desks, check-in infrastructure, etc is controlled by the airports not the airlines. I know that at peak times at some airports, airlines are not always able to use the number of desks they need because there are physically not enough check-in desks available.

Following your train of thought the airline should ignore the potential problems this could cause everyone if large numbers of pax continue to turn up at - 90 mins, and they should magically turn the check-in area into a tardis with additional desks and staff to man these desks.

Along with other airlines VS has implemented many schemes aimed at giving passengers options on check-in times. Twilight check-in, Internet check-in, kerb side check-in, self service check-in etc are all aimed at reducing the crush.

I am not anti passenger, I too would love for long haul flights to be able to close at -45mins or shorter, but facts are that with airport and ATC slots being rigourously applied, a late closure or late passenger to the gate can cause delays way out of proportion. The knock on effect down route and on further flights
that the aircraft is rostered to do is also important.

SkySista, in the example you quote I doubt the pax would be refused. Of course if the passenger is travelling and has excess then time spent arguing would not be advieable!!

[10secondsurvey]

Well, that's Virgin off my list of favourite airlines.

What possesses the morons who dream this guff up. How about more security check staff, how about more check in staff, ...nah, lets just blame the paying customers.

Mr Branson really ought to get a grip, and sack the tosser who made this decision.
If I want this cr*p, I'll fly Ryanair. Or has Virgin Atlantic turned all budgety etc...

You want to avoid delays? GET MORE CHECK IN STAFF.

[surely not]

Sorry matey but you can have as many check-in agents as you want, if the majority of passengers don't turn up until -90mins to STD then you will have delays because there won't be enough frigging c-in desks because the buildings aren't big enough and the c-in agents will have been sitting there twiddling their thumbs doing sweet FA!!
Is that how your company works, lots of waste?
All Virgin Atlantic have done is tell passengers that if they turn up late they run the risk of not getting on their flight! At some gates in LHR it can take 45 min to get there, assuming security isn't crammed and heaving.
By all means continue with your outraged indignation that an airline has tried to ensure that passengers don't miss their flight. Take your business to an airline that doesn't communicate with its passengers and suffers delays as a result.
I do not work for Virgin Atlantic, nor do I work at LHR, so I do not have any reason to speak up for them other than I think they have done absolutely nothing to deserve the hyper reactions of a few people on here.
Customer care is also about information and that is what they have given. It is up to you whether you take notice of the information.

[MarkD]

well said surely not, in both of your last posts.

there isn't a VS equiv of bealine around I suppose :D

[Curious Pax]

Surely Not,
Whilst in essence you are right, I think you are missing the point in this particular case. Anecdotal evidence from an experience that I and it seems others have had is that Virgin at LHR experiences very long queues, and so even those arriving at a reasonable time would be at risk of being denied boarding with this new rules.

My personal experience was that despite arriving in the checkin area around 2.5 hours before departure we would have only just made the 60 minutes cut off. The impression I got as people were being pulled out of the queue as their departure time got near was that not many had showed up 90 minutes before departure, but mostly around the 2 hour mark (going off their place in the queue).

Whilst not expecting to walk to an empty check in desk when travelling in the cheap seats, long queues of anything greater than 30 minutes suggests that the number of checkin staff/desks is at least a big part of the problem.

It was a shame because it got our Virgin 'experience' off to a negative start, which the superior service subsequently only rescued, so our overall memory has them no better than anyone else we have travelled with.

Perhaps if Virgin had announced some extra check in staff/desks at the same time as announcing these new rules they would have got a better response?

[Pnooze]

I am a Captain with VS and have been following this thread with some interest.
Several months ago it emerged that from a list of 30 big users at LHR Virgin was 27th in that list of punctuality. The cost of delays is conservatively put at 40 pounds per minute. BA work to a much higher figure. This equates to about 15 million a year. When you realise that VS made about 5 million profit this year on a turnover of about 1 billion, one can see the problem.
The reasons for delays/cost are many and various but pax and pax handling are top of the list. VS has always has always been very laisee faire towards late pax, but with another 60 million in fuel costs this year something drastic has to be done
A comment was made earlier concerning boarding gates not open on time and similiar problems, and i know that this being addressed with some urgency.
To ensure an above average chance of getting away on time all pax need to be boarded ETD- 10 mins. Period.
I feel it is unlikely that a pax who has been in the line for 30 mins only to be told that it is now 50 mins to go will be denied boarding, however i can assure you that if 350 passengers joined the line at ETD-90 MINS then the flight will be late.
Incidently our best on time performance by a long way is Tokyo. Many reasons have been suggested for this 90% otp but my opinion is that it is a cultural thing. Japanese pax all arrive at the airport 3-4 hrs before departure, then all wait patiently by the gate. Westerners, especially some of those who have contributed to this debate simply don't want to know. Sign of the times i guess.
My dear old Mum used to be cabin crew for BOAC back in the late 50's and never tires of saying " Air travel has never been the same since they let poor people travel"
That should be enough to ignite something!

[WHBM]

Capt. Pnooze:

Thank you for your valuable comments from the front end, it is especially interesting to read of the cost of delay and the relation of this to the airline's overall margins. However as one who is frequently behind you (and hopefully not too far behind you :) ) I would offer some observations.

Virgin may be towards the bottom of the punctuality tables, and indeed such a fact needs to be addressed, but sticking the problem on your customers rather than sorting out your own procedures, is not the way for a commercial business to go about things. AFAIK none of the other mainstream LHR carriers require a 60 minute minimum and yet they manage to get ahead of you in the statistics. As their passengers have to negotiate the same security delays and supposed attractions of the shops as your own, this surely points to the problem being somewhere else.

I have to tell you that for a Virgin Y-class passenger to be in check-in queue for only 30 minutes, as in your example, is indeed a good day. While waiting there (and for a lesser time normally over at BA in T4) there is plenty of opportunity to compare and contrast what is effectively an identical operation. You may guess how the comparison goes.

I fear that the customer-hostile decision to extend the time, and the non-optimised procedures, probably both eminate from the same set of terminal managers, and there is a lesson in there for where the basic problem lies. We have staff (even managers) in my own company who seek to blame problems on customers, while others, more positive, are more customer-facing and do not get into the same issues. It is all a question of attitude to the situation. Virgin got to where they are by being better than BA and we all came up with the money to travel with you as a result. It would be a shame to put this into reverse.

I just wonder, to take a few examples, how AA consistently manage (in my experience) to get their gates in T3 open and indeed pax seated in the aircraft much earlier than VS, and have done for many years. Or how the Clubhouse can send pax down to the gate to find nothing but a gargantuan queue there. And if sat at the front end it is interesting to see who we are waiting for, a late pax or a late dispatcher. I trust the dispatchers don't, as a matter of course, just give "late pax" as a reason. Has anyone checked ?

We're just trying to help .....

[manintheback]

the one question thats always baffled me.

Why does it take soooooo long to check some people in?. Get the passport and ticket/ref, tag luggage, print boarding card. Got stuck behind one individual at the weekend - just under ten minutes.........

[surely not]

Manintheback you have just highlighted one of the biggest variables in checking pax in. Some are easy with all the right documentation, no problems with the ticket, all the correct visas, no excess baggage, understand the check-in agents speech, are decisive when given options on seat position, whilst others are non of the above!!

and that is what makes aviation sooooooooo much fun!

[skybird]

How do you know VS are not looking at their processes behind the scenes?

Has it occured to you that they might be working hard to stop being 27th out of 30 and save some of that cost that Cap Pnooze talked about, and that they are fixing lots of processes to achieve this?

Maybe letting the passengers know what times to be at check in is just one of the ways they are trying to improve things for everybody!

[Pnooze]

WHBM
Thankyou for yr constructive feedback. I would have got back sooner but recently back from 8 day Sydney trip.
I would agree that to put the blame on pax only for our otp record is unfair when taken in isolation, however it is fair in the wider context along with a host of issues that are Virgin's responsibility.
In the last 4 weeks our otp has improved enormously, and part of that is down to our pax handling, both in the check in area and the gate area, with both pax and staff doing their bit.
Punctuality is something that airlines often struggle with more at their home base more than their outports. Bizarre i know but true.
Take LA for example. 2 flt.s a day leaving LA 3 hours apart. 20 VS staff on duty checking in 500 people if busy. Pax who are late for the 1st flt can be rolled onto the next. No ATC or weather delays, and 8 or 9 chk in desks. Security is tight but efficient. Transit luggage is rarely an issue. I could go on.
AA and other carriers at LHR are in the reverse position. What VS could really do with then is about 60 chk in desks in the same way as AA and United have in Dallas or Chicago but the space at LHR simply is not there. Perhaps more space will become available once T5 is open. Perhaps!

[ABird747]

BA close their longhaul flights at STD -45

If you're travelling on standby you're always told to come back at flight close (-45) you then get your boarding pass (or not) at about -40 then you have to run like buggery to the gate.

[Leezyjet]

VS simply do not have enough check-in desks in T3. They have been trying to take over the AA check-in desks for years but there is nowhere else for AA to check-in until T5 is built, and the airlines all get moved around. As result VS pax can be faced with long queues (sometimes down to Zone G in peak travel periods) - granted there are also time when staffing levels could be better, but that is being addressed.

If they can get even half of the pax to turn up earlier then they are one step nearer to getting the flight away ontime.

The BAA also have to shoulder some responsibility too for not providing adequate facilities to process passengers, (not enough check-in desks or security staff etc) but instead making sure their shopping malls are ok.

There are other initiatives going on too, like boarding commencing strictly at 50 mins prior to STD - which has suffered in the past due to some of the pri-madonna cabin crew that VS has wanting to have that bit of extra power to dictate that "they" will board when "they" are ready - not when someone tells them to.

Although again on some flights the BAA staff provide the gate security and will not turn up any earlier than 1 hour before departure meaning that the airline only have 10 minutes to process passengers into the holding gates before boarding physically starts which adds to the process meaning more has to be done to get everyone through the gate ontime - if they can process passengers into the holding gates early it greatly reduces the workload on the boarding staff as most of the work is done prior to boarding commencing meaning that any potential problems can be sorted sooner and it is just a matter of opening the doors and allowing the passengers onto the plane.

WHBM,

Dispatchers do not usually "just make things up" (although the odd little white lie does need to be used from time to time and info is passed on a need to know basis).

If a passenger is late, the bags have to be removed - which on a wide bodied a/c - especially to LOS can take upto 20 minutes if multiple bags are to be removed from multiple containers - which then have to be re-loaded again. This has to be supervised by the said Dispatcher to ensure said bags are offloaded. Said Dispatcher then has to run onto the a/c and ammened the Captains Loadsheet ( legal document that they also need a copy of) with the alterations before the a/c can depart - that is usually why the Dispatcher is running on at the last minute not because s/he is late !!. Also the figure that Pnooze used of £40 per minute for a delay is a little conservative, the real figure is closer to £110 per minute or $200usd is the figure more commonly used by most airlines.

Sky Siesta,

If you are not in the process of being checked in at that point, then yes you will be denied. Although if you are already in the middle of being checked in, then you can still travel. The close out time is the time that the passenger has to be at the check-in desk, not joining the queue or still in the queue - time should be allowed for long queues especially in peak season but unfortunately many people just do not allow for this then ala Airline on ITV, scream and complain when they miss the flight and blame the airline for them being late !!. Once it is getting towards flight closure, the staff will pull out people by flight number to "jump the queue" to ensure they get checked in by the deadline, this is in addition to the many other ways to check in that Surely Not mentioned.

I don't work for VS either, but I do work in Flight Dispatch for another LHR airline and know someone who works for VS that advised me of the info.


:)

[MichaelJP59]

One related question for anyone in the know.

Is there any point in using Virgin's online check-in?

- presumably you just join a queue to check-in suitcases rather than a queue to check-in and get a boarding pass?

- also, although its a slim chance anyway, wouldn't you forgo any possiblity of an upgrade from say premium->upper class?

[Leezyjet]

Michael,

Spoke to my contact who advises that :-

The queue for the fast bag drop is shorter, and at outstations is usually combined with PE check in.

Upgrades are usually done by FF's first, in order of status, then by fare status, then any SFU's or "nice passengers" then whoever checked in earliest and finally who ever happens to be at the gate at the time they need to move enyone else. Although this order isn't strictly adhered to if time is tight. So shouldn't really make a difference where you checked in - and the earlier the better.

VS are very strict with upgrades out of the UK and will not upgrade unless it is absolutely necessary though unless you want to pay or cash in some ff points.



:)

[Self Loading Freight]

I'm off to SF on VS19 on Saturday at 11am. I try and get to the airport by 8am, although last time (six months ago) I was about ten minutes later and it was all rather tight - which surprised me, as I thought three hours was generous enough.

Have conditions changed much since then, with the new tighter rules? Should I try and get there earlier? I assume checking in the night before online is still a very good idea...

R

[B Sousa]

"the one question thats always baffled me.

Why does it take soooooo long to check some people in?. Get the passport and ticket/ref, tag luggage, print boarding card. Got stuck behind one individual at the weekend - just under ten minutes.........
"
Good Point. Its similar to being in line at the post office. All those folks whining, but when they get to the attendant they havent packaged properly, or used the wrong form and require the assistance to get their head out of their rear. Ought to be law that if you aint ready when you get to the head of the line.NEXT and your ass goes to the back....... Military was famous for that....
I see it all the time, folks get up there and look at the attendant....He/She has to say Tickets.duh Passport..duh........
Me I would just say you failed, NEXT..........
Git er done !!!!

[XSBaggage]

We operate on the principle that if they are in the queue at closure time they get checked in, if not they are regarded as late.

Of course this is difficult for airlines like VS who operate general check in desks and not specific ones for each destination, when all pax are in one, often GIGANTIC, queue.

Open 'em early, eases pressure on staff, pax, dispatchers, everyone.

[lexxity]

B Sousa, I wish I could shout "next" at the pax who has come to check in and then finds they have put their passport in their suitcase and their ticket is missing presumed lost, but we can't.

The longest I have ever seen a pax being checked in is 45mins! This was at MAN not LHR. The reason it took so long was the endless questions, repeats of answers, re-repeats of answers, finding of passports etc.

It really shouldn't take so long, but some pax just aren't organised at an airport and that is why you have to open check in so early, you have to accomodate the slowest not the fastest pax, sorry guys but there it is until all pax can just turn up and check in with no issues or arguments, or excess then 3hrs before the flight time is what it is going to take.


I don't work for VS or at LHR, but I do work for a major carrier at an outstation and the situation is the same there. So it is unfair to have such a go at VS over what is in the end helping the fare paying pax get away on time. If the airline and pax both play their part then everyone is happy. I hope:ugh:

[WHBM]

The longest I have ever seen a pax being checked in is 45mins! I am sure I was queuing behind them. :)