Things that I Love...

[stupendousman]

I Love:


1. The opinion that prevails amongst many in suggesting that the RAF need not recruit. Especially seeing as in surveys such as the ‘Times Top 100 Graduate Employers’ the RAF consistently fails to breach the upper quartile, as opposed to the Army, who consistently ranks high in the top ten... and we’re the ones with the planes! Think Quality not Quantity. :E

2. The efforts made by those in the military to assure its recruits that it does not seek a ‘type’… made in most cases by a distinguished white male of upper middle class origin. And lo and behold at both OASC and RCB what do we get? An 80-90% turnout of white, middle class males. Not a bad type perhaps, but lets not kid ourselves. :8

3. The sentiment that the RAF might benefit from a DE recruit as opposed to a University recruit ‘because the more immature recruit is more easily moulded’… so they don’t recruit a type… but God forbid if you don’t conform to one. Enlightened.:}

4. The concurrent opinion, that a university education lacks relevance in the RAF. Who are these guys? :confused:

5. The ill concealed feeling on this forum that ‘an RAF officer is an officer first and pilot second’. Ha!:hmm:

6. The straight-faced lie that most recruits begin their careers with when faced with the question ‘have you encountered drugs before’. ‘Absolutely not’. Again, Ha! (And don’t even try to deny it);)

7. And finally… the persistent attempts, made by certain members of this forum, to point out the spelling mistakes of others… You know who you are.:ok:

[Maple 01]

I fink pont7 is gud becuz it would stop the nobs lokin down on us inlistd peple wot aint ad no edukation like wot u oficerz have had

[ZH875]

but lets not kid ourselves
I think you will find that it should read "but let's not kid ourselves", as we still have the apostrophe in the English language.

All spelling mistakes are as a result of not doing well at school

[airborne_artist]

as opposed to the Army, who consistently ranks high in the top ten

The Army is a body, not a person, so your phrase should read "....the Army, which ..."

I joined the Navy as a DE equivalent, but not before had I learned to spell and write.

[The Rocket]

I joined the Navy as a DE equivalent, but not before had I learned to spell and write.

Perhaps you had learned to both spell and write Airborne Artist, but it seems you still lacked the ability to correctly construct a sentence.:ok:

You should have learned proper england like what i did when i was children

[Otis Spunkmeyer]

To construct a sentence correctly without splitting any infinitives, no doubt!

[Time Flies]

Point 6????

Don't be so quick to assume everyone has tried drugs! Aside from beer and the odd cigar, following lots of the aforementioned beer, I am clean!

TF

[SmilingKnifed]

I take it OASC didn't go well then stupendousman.

[STANDTO]

I was about to say! That'll be a binned graduate then?

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

That'll be a binned graduate then?

... from a middle class family with dashing good looks, a brain the size of the planet, average 'tackle', a PPL and just a few chips.

Tough luck mate..................... :8

[SirToppamHat]

to correctly construct a sentence.

A split infinitive, unless I am very much mistaken! :ok:

Has anyone found this yet?

JSP101 (http://www.da.mod.uk/NewSite/eDW/JSP101_DWG_Version_1_0.pdf)

I didn't realise it was available on the internet. That will save me carrying that DW Handbook around!

Ahh, ISSC, Happy Days ... not.

STH

[Otis Spunkmeyer]

STH

I boldly went before you, about an hour ago.

[Tourist]

Who ever said we don't look for a "type" Stupendulousman?
We are looking for capable, entertaining and gifted individuals who can take banter and don't have a chip the size of the iceberg that sunk the Titanic on their shoulder.
p.s. apparently a very strong grounding in grammer is a plus, especially from fecking Grads

[Maple 01]

Bugger! So that's why I was never commissioned......

[Tourist]

I did say "looking for" I never pretended to have found one.
It was merely out of curiosity after all..

[KPax]

One of these points would apply to the ex MT driver who applied to be a pilot and was told he did not have the qualities required. Was then sponsored through DHFS by the Army whilst still a member of the RAF and is now a rotary pilot. As stated, Officer first or Pilot first.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Whilst not essential being an upperclass twit is a definate bonus:E ................takes cover:p

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Pilgrim101]

I bet Airborne Artiste has been sentenced many more times than wot you have Rocket. BTW I also bet you don't have a clue as to his pedigree ? :E :E ;)

[The Rocket]

To construct a sentence correctly without splitting any infinitives, no doubt!

Kn4ckers!!!:p


BTW I also bet you don't have a clue as to his pedigree ?

Erm? Is it Chum?


I'm going to shut up now.

[ZH875]

One of these points would apply to the ex MT driver who applied to be a pilot and was told he did not have the qualities required. Was then sponsored through DHFS by the Army whilst still a member of the RAF and is now a rotary pilot. ...Hence the standard of Teeny Weeny Airways pilots, I knew they were just a bunch of taxi drivers, but couldn't prove it.

[Tourist]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the MT pilot is now a civvy, and he got in due to his connections with some high and mightys in the Gliding world

[stupendousman]

grammar shmamar. point proven. :ugh:

I did get in though... just making some observations on my way through.

As for point 6... I am making no assumptions here. Not all the guys and girls I met along the way had tried drugs... but all their answers were 'no':ooh:

And as for Uni, it is the life experience, as much as the educational that is important. The 18-year-old DE boys and girls have a lot to learn, which the military isn't necessarily best suited to teach.

[PPRuNeUser0139]

‘an RAF officer is an officer first and pilot second’

Adapting a well-known quote I reckon that integrity is the one quality that guarantees all others. You can teach piloting skills but you can't teach integrity.

[Need for Speed!]

And as for Uni, it is the life experience, as much as the educational that is important. The 18-year-old DE boys and girls have a lot to learn, which the military isn't necessarily best suited to teach.

Following your initial post, I would suggest that you also have a lot to learn.

NFS

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

"You can teach piloting skills but you can't teach integrity."......ain't that the truth:}

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[teeteringhead]

integrity is the one quality that guarantees all others Couldn't agree more ... and honesty ...







Once you can convincingly fake integrity and honesty - you've really got it made!:E

[jindabyne]

stupidous

So, you 'got in' - what as, a carpenter? Not planes sonny (or lassy); it's aeroplane or aircraft, not plane. Got it?

[stillin1]

stupidous

Strewth - you really asked for that lot! Consider - don't you think your initial post came across as a tad narrow-minded and therefore unlikely to get "serious" responses to the questions you posed?

Problem we have got with you sport is:
a. R U just a wind-up merchant?
b. R U serious?
c. From where / what are you coming from?

Solution is:
a. When did you join the RAF (full time)?
b. As what?
c. What do you fly?
d. As what?
e. What did you want to be doing?

Read and digest some of the answers you got. The "English" corrections you REALLY asked for. Some of the other "pearls" should give you sage words to ponder as you continue to learn every day of your career :ouch:

[airborne_artist]

And as for Uni, it is the life experience, as much as the educational that is important. The 18-year-old DE boys and girls have a lot to learn, which the military isn't necessarily best suited to teach.

You need to remember that university is not the one size fits all solution that Noo Labour have brainwashed you into believing. The vast majority of the 18/19 y/o entrants I joined with in 78 were more than capable of getting in to university - bear in mind that about 65% of uni places are at what we knew then as polytechnics/colleges, and at best awarded a CNAA degree that had a much lower standing.

My father had been very much involved (in the MOD) with the 82 South Atlantic skirmish, as he was the last Captain of Endurance ashore. In the wash-up it was discovered that a lot of the dashing, good at writing joined up, graduate officers had not performed that well when the battle was raging, while those who were perceived as dull/ordinary had been able to keep on the task despite the pressure.

[Mr C Hinecap]

Well, seeing as you haven't got yourself all the way through training yet, I may yet get to welcome you to the Supply Branch yet!

Step closer, oh young grad demigod. I have a McDonalds 5 Star certificate I'd like to insert somewhere painful, along with my Degree from the University of Life - a place that exists outside the Uni bar.

Oh - the RAF Regt Instructors at Cranwell love to be kept in their place. :E Crack on.

[juliet]

jeez i get pi**ed off when idiots start implying that you have to have gone to uni to be any good at anything, and that all officers should come from uni because they have better "life skills". BOLLOXS!!! sure we need uni grads, but equally we need young DE guys, each bring something different to the party through their experiences and perspectives. what we dont need are arrogant fools who think that they are better than anyone else because of their background, especially when they havent proved themselves!

[stillin1]

J , wise words.
stupidous: take heed:cool:


You may be getting an inkling into why we strive to attract the "kinds" of people we do. There is a lot more to being an effective member of this team than you appear to grasp at the moment. We will take almost any one!!!!

We only tend to keep the ones that make the whole greater than the sum of the individual parts (to misquote someone!). ;)

[Zoom]

stupido

You say: And as for Uni, it is the life experience, as much as the educational that is important. The 18-year-old DE boys and girls have a lot to learn, which the military isn't necessarily best suited to teach.

I have a moment or 2 on my hands for a little light reading; perhaps you would care to publish a list of features in this 'life experience' thing that you feel that the RAF needs so much. Bear in mind that many of us here will have either been to uni or put kids through uni, or we might even have done both. Please exclude such desirable qualities as learning how to:

a. Sleep for 18 hours a day.

b. Turn a perfectly pleasant terraced house into a stinking sh*thole within moments of moving in.

c. Steal your colleagues' food because you've run out of money again.

d. Same re booze.

e. Nick your colleagues' CDs and not return them until they are scratched to b*ggery.

f. Refuse to pay your share of the phone bill 'cos I was only on the phone for 2 minutes last month'.

g. Fail to establish a sensible balance between work and play.

h. Have 6 months of holidays per annum and still hand in your projects late.

i. Take drugs.

j. Cram a 12 month course on psychcr*p into a full 3 years.

k. Expect to be offered a highly-paid job immediately on leaving uni as you now have a degree.

I'm ready so start compiling.

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

As an 18 year old DE I had the following "Life Experiences" with the RAF:

Cheap Beer
Cheap cars
Cheap petrol
Cheap travel
LOA (which increased my salary by 35%)
Friendly ladies :ok:
Camaraderie & teamwork
Learning and developing a skill-set that was actually of some use
Earning a salary and contributing towards the country and its economy.
etc.
etc.

Don't come all high and mighty on this forum about university life experiences. I, like many, have done bl**dy well thank you very much, despite the lack of a 'proper' education.

Now, please go away, put on some white tapes, and actually learn what the RAF is all about.

[Pontius Navigator]

I walked into the staff coffee bar at ANS at Finningley and asked generally - any quantity surveyors here? I got one yes.

Later I wanted a very long masonry drill bit. Once again someone had one.

It was like the motley selection in a prisoner of war camp. Someone was good at something and you could get expert advice on practically anything under the Sun.

All DEs or all grads would just not have given that eclectic mix.

DEs are certainly seen as better prospects as aircrew and given equal apptitude scores - 17 yr old cf 22 yrs old - the 17 yr old will win hands down 5 years later.

[kluge]

Pontius Nav - was your sojourn to Finningley recent ?

I understand it's closed as a station but it's been years since I've been there. I left Blighty in 1990. It was there that the flying bug bit as a child and I had my first aeros ride as ATC cadet.

Sorry a bit off thread....

Cheers K

[attackattackattack]

Kluge

Finningley has a new identity:

Serving the north of England (http://www.robinhoodairport.com/)

[Tigs2]

Stupidousman

A mate of mine going through flying training at the same time as me was 17 1/2. By the time he was 25 he was a QWI on a harrier squadron. Most green shielders are still kicking around IOT at 25. We had one guy who had done a degree in zoology (sp), was he any better than we DE's? I was equally as qualified to spot a crocodilapigamoose in york as he was. We had one guy who had done a four year degree course in Brewing (top course mind). His only secondary job at linton was to organise a course trip to a brewery. In 14 months he never actually managed it, a four year degree course in brewing and he could not literally organise a piss up in a brewery.

Everyones got their bit to offer so dont come out with this superiority bollox. Oh do you know the RAF are actively recruiting DE's now, not because they are mouldable, they will be offered in service degree courses. Its because it is only the DE that can reach the right rank at a young enough age to hit the brackets to become CAS. A 29 year old first tourist pilot cannot do that.

You are noticed by your lack of replies to anyone on this thread.

[SSSETOWTF]

I'm probably opening a huge can of worms, but....

I can't quite see what all the fuss is about stupendousman's post. Now obviously if you have a chip on your shoulder about graduates then you can probably read it in a particular way and take huge offence, but I'm not sure that was his point.

As one of the much-vilified-on-this-thread graduate filth, I can see compelling reasons for recruiting a balanced mix of DE and graduates. Surely the whole point of the RAF's lengthy selection procedure is to weed out the best of both worlds?

Tigs - not all of us have a burning passion to be CAS, so there's probably still room for some graduates in the system. Your QWI mate is a fine chap and definitely going places, but I wouldn't swap places with him and give up all the great times I had in my early 20s.

Zoom, sir, can you seriously not think of anything good about a graduate? Do you actually believe that every single one of the tens of thousands of students in the country at any time all fit the mould of your very tired stereotype? Does your only experience of student life come from watching the Young Ones or reading Viz? Here are a couple of ideas to get you started:

Almost all undergrads take a gap year these days and travel the world. A gap year doesn't necessarily mean smoking dope on the beach in Thailand. Some of my friends did things such as - living and working as a farmer in China for a year and becoming fluent in Cantonese, working in French or German ski resorts and becoming conversationally fluent in one of our European allies' languages, building a school in Namibia, redecorating a Romanian prison to turn it into an orphanage and helping to set the whole thing up, Camp America counsellors etc. I put it to you that an 18/19 year old that shows that sort of initiative, independence, self-confidence and yes, teamwork too, has something to offer the RAF.

A graduate will also have picked up a few other 'life skills' along the way. Many will have, as you alluded to, experienced some financial difficulties. The majority will have worked through them - either by employing some strange innovative money-saving schemes, or (this may shatter your illusions) by getting a job. I could list a whole raft of the daft buzz-words of management speak that the world, including the RAF, seem to love talking about too: time-management, inter-personal skills, writing skills, IT skills etc etc. I certainly learned a lot about each of them while I was at university. The things I picked up at university were things I didn't have to be taught by the RAF, and probably saved me from a couple of flight commander interviews. You can also be pretty sure that a graduate applicant has had a couple of years to make a well-balanced decision as to his/her career path too, so you're likely to get a well-motivated recruit.

I'm not trying to say that graduates are better than DE recruits at all. As I said at the beginning, I believe there's a place for both at Cranwell and each has pros and cons. But the implication that anyone who went to university spent 3 years smoking drugs, getting drunk, committing petty crime and staying in bed all day, and therefore has nothing to offer the RAF, is just ridiculous.

Single Seat, Single Engine, The Only Way To Fly

[kluge]

triple a -

WOW - gobsmacked

Cheers.

[Stax]

Amazes me how one thread ends up as another. So!.............

Uni V No Uni.

My Daughter: At Uni, training to be a teacher. 4 Years, lot of work and she works part time to fund herself.

My Son: Wants to be a copper and has been advised that as long as he gets the requisite GCSE's they are happy if he works until he can go to "copper college" as he will gain people and life skills rather than educational.

Morale: Horses for courses.

[BootFlap]

Tigs,

By God, was that me? Were we at Linton together?

I think you will find I was 26 when I finished the QWI course, but it is nice to hear I will be CAS!

:ok: :ok:

[Zoom]

SSSE
I didn't say anything at all about a graduate, good or otherwise. I just asked stupido for some more info on the 'life experience' that he appears to think can be found only at uni, and I listed a few items that I wanted excluded..........honest!

In your first 'idea' you listed some admirable projects done by your friends during their gap years and I agree that those individuals have shown that they have something to offer the RAF. But all this activity took place, as you said, in their gap years and therefore before your friends went to uni. The gap year is not the exclusive preserve of the budding graduate, and there are plenty of other youngsters not planning on going to uni but who also take a year out after school and do the same sorts of activities and achieve equally laudable results. In your second 'idea' you mentioned getting into and out of financial difficulties, learning buzz-words and making well-balanced career decisions while at uni. Nowadays none of this is unique to graduates; in fact, anyone with a credit card, a TV and an ounce of vision can do all 3.

I do not denigrate the academic side of university life (although I have yet to be persuaded about the value to the RAF of some of the degree courses taken) and I made no mention of it in my first post anyway. I would just like to know a little more about the particular brand of 'life experience' that seemingly can be found only at university and is so much more valuable and enriching than that enjoyed elsewhere by other school-leavers.

[whowhenwhy]

Yes I too am a graduate. Does it help me do my job? A resounding no! Would I have been ready for the 'rigours' of OASC and Cranditzwhen I was 18? Again a resounding no!

The fact that I was allowed to get out and about around the world allowed me to grow up to go do IOT. Yes there are degree courses that will help with professional trg, but they almost certainly won't help you be 'an officer first.'

Life experience comes in many different ways and, if it works, all avenues should be accepted. Graduates and DEs certainly shouldn't be lording over each other or anyone else as to the relevant merits of their own personal experience. It's how we do our jobs that counts.

As an example, I saw an old mate from Cranditz last week who was DE. I'm sure that he'd agree with me when I say that at Cranditz he could be a cocky little git/typical 18 year old sometimes. However, a couple of fg tours later and he's a changed bloke and is now off instructing.

Everyone has their own opinion, personally I think we've given the world's STUPIDest man enough air time. :ok:

[Matt Skrossa]

During my time at Dartmouth my Flight was divided into two sets for academic studies; Graduates and Science based A-Levels and those with non-science based A-Levels/O Levels. I think there were 24 of us, 12 pilots and 12 observers and the split between the two sets was about 50/50. After the ensuing flying training 5 of us actually got our wings and went front-line, whilst the rest were chopped or resigned. All of the 5 that qualified were from the non-grads set, which either proves you don't have to be academically gifted to be aircrew, or the grads found it all too boring and easy, but as with all statisitcs you can draw any conclusion you like.

p.s. One of those that was in the thicko's set is now a Commodore, but you wouldn't have spotted all that potential back then!

[Tanewha]

I went to Cranditz at 18 and was my own worst enemy. Immature doesn't come into it. However, unlike STUPIDMAN, I happen to think that the RAF is an excellent place to learn life skills and to mature. Not only that but I was a second tour, operational captain as a Fg Off whilst Fl Lt 1st tourists were my co-pilots.
The one thing that annoys me is that graduates who are quite clearly not ready for it, are given the rank. They should earn it by proving themselves professionally and not because they have spent 3/4 years weaving baskets and getting drunk. O-kay, pay them more if you really want them, but why should they masquerade as senior junior officers when then they only have 2 years under their belt. We have a Flt Lt holding officer with us at the moment!!! This is someone who a junior rank or even a junior offier may well look to for advice thinking that they had some time in.
Finished.

[Cambridge Crash]

Tanewha

The (old) RNZAF system that exisited until the mid 1990s was probably the best compromise with respect to the seniority affored to graduates. Aircrew were not commissioned until they got their brevets. Graduates got 3-6 months seniority over Direct Entrants. I had a masters' degree on entry - 6 years at varsity - which gave me about 9 months over a kid out of school. I felt I did have life skills, but the degree per se didn't make any difference to my (average) performance during professional training.

I have returned to university after 20-odd years and enjoying the freedom immensly. I have found the orthodoxy of the Services - class-riden and dogmatic thinking, anti-intellectualism, mechanistic promotion methods, Byzantine posting systems (eg having one's career managed by a school-leaver) - very constraining, but I have enjoyed my time. My regret is that I did not jump from the RAF at the end of a SSC. The post-grads I mix with look up at awe with those with Service backgrounds (and there is a surprising number at Cambridge); we in turn, are envious of the bright gilded youth who are just starting out on their careers.

But as one poster stated, horses for courses. I now enjoy being paid to read, think and write - and get a fair bit of interesting travel as well. That's what I love. Could be a lot worse...

SE Asian Crash

[FJ2ME]

I did a bl@@dy tough degree AND it was relevent to my future career AND I probably wouldn't have joined if that work wasn't taken into account over some gobsh!te who had just rolled out of public school.

That said, its also quite unfair that some get 4 years seniority when one year was taken abroad, and those who do a 4 year sandwich course with a year in industry only get 3 years seniority. Seems upside down to me.

To all the comments about basket-weaving and 3 years of getting drunk &c, these are only relevent to some degrees. I'm proud of what I achieved at university, adn I hope those that spent 3 years doing media studies, golf-course management and so can say the same. But then they will see what that is worth when they're made redundant from the RAF in the next round of cuts!

[BEagle]

I went straight from Public School to RAFC Cranwell as a Flt Cdt. Did a year, then 4 at university (it should have been 3 but I enjoyed the UAS too much!), then back to do a Graduate Entry course.

Glad I did both; 'real' Cranwell was quite hard but fair. University opened one's eyes somewhat though - and I really appreciated that.

On balance I reckon that a year out, followed by 3 years at RAFC including proper BFTS training with degree accredited military studies and academics would be top banana. Plus a bit of pine pole carrying and marching around, of course!

Fat chance though.....

[Tanewha]

Don't you just love a classless society.

[uknasa]

If only you'd worked harder at school Tanewha

[Tanewha]

I'd be where, exactly?