Any AEF staff pilots out there?

[mgdaviso]

Just wondering if this forum is populated by any AEF staff pilots who may be able to help with some questions about the Grob tutor?

[grobace]

We are the backbone of the fora! What do you want to know? Send a postage stamp so we can write on the back of it ...

[mgdaviso]

I'm involved with the ATC, and when I go AEF, I want to learn to fly the tutor, not just do aeros. The problem is I can only remember bits of the instruction, so I thought I might ask on here, so at least I can note down the answers and read them at my leisure and try to remember them for next time.

First question is the VR for takeoff.

thanks for responding.

[Wholigan]

In the cadets' crew room of our AEF there are posters showing the syllabus and some of the appropriate information that could be of interest, such as take-off speed, climb speed, speed for various aerobatics, circuit information etc. I'm in at work again next Wednesday and I'll download them from my computer at work and send them to you.

[mgdaviso]

thanks - they don't have anything like this at my AEF

[grobace]

Which is your AEF, then?

[Hummingfrog]

Hi Grobace

Are you on 12 AEF as you are from Fife?

For mgdaviso:- there are not alot of figures that would be of use but here are some:-

VR is about 55-60kts depending on x-wind
Climb speed 80kts
VNE 185 Kts (Never exceed speed)
VNO 150 Kts (max normal operations)
AEROS 130 Kts (average)
FLAPS T/off 125 Kts
FLAPS FULL 110 Kts
MAX XWIND 25 Kts
MAX WIND 40 Kts

Before you get airborne tell the pilot what you would like to do. Most of us are more than pleased to teach/show whatever you would like. Remember it is your trip not the pilot's - he has probably done mostly aeros that day so would enjoy doing something different.

There is nothing worse than a cadet who answers "Dunno -whatever you want to do sir" to the question "what do would you like to do today"

It is a pleasure to fly an enthusiastic cadet who has thought about the trip and has an idea of what he/she would like to do.

However, if you want to do aeros and the weather is suitable you will never be turned down
:ok:

If you want to learn to fly then remember that it is the horizon that is the most important feature when learning to fly. Listen to what the pilot says and note where the nose of the a/c is in relation to the horizon. Keep the nose there and the a/c will fly at the speed selected.

And remember there is only one real AEF and that is No 12 in Scotland;)

HF

[mgdaviso]

Grobace; My AEF is 7 at RAF Cranwell, and they are actually very good - just don't have those posters wholigan refers to.

HF - thanks for the figures, I had the pleasure of a flight out of 12 AEF two years ago whilst on annual camp, it was at that point I decided that I would make every flight from then on count and learn something. Problem is when you go maybe four/five times a year it is difficult to retain and recall the important stuff for next time - hence the post.

would the standard R/T call for taxy go something like this (if I remember correctly)

callsign to taxy runway for departure
eg:
four one zero alpha to taxy two seven for departure.

[Neeps]

Its good that you're taking such an interest in it! Good luck with it all :ok:

[Hummingfrog]

Hi mgdaviso

A taxy call is normally your request to move from your dispersal to the holding point for the active runway. At Leuchars this would go something like:-

"Leuchars Ground this is UAA 123 taxi 2 pob 20 mins VFR to the north Alpha copied"

This is your request to taxi telling ATC that you have 2 people on board and you are going to the north under visual flight rules (ie not in cloud) for 20 mins and that you have copied the airfield details (Alpha) that are transmitted on the airfield info freq.

ATC will reply:-

"UAA 123 taxi via chequers for runway 27 Right QFE 1003"

This tells you your route to the runway 27 holding point is via chequers (through the Tornado dispersals) and that the circuit direction is right hand and the setting for your altimeter subscale is 1003 to make the altimeter read zero at the runway threshold.

Hope this is of interest!!

HF

[Angels 99]

Mr Daviso - just to mention that last time I was up at EMUAS the cadets crew room did have the standard 'everything you need to know for a Tutor circuit' poster up. Used to be on the left wall as you walk through the door!
Of course the bean counters might have stolen it for economic reasons by now..................

[mgdaviso]

HF, yes it is of interest, I am trying to learn the requisite r/t procedures so I can make each sortie interesting.

I had a similar call to the one you described on start-up from cold the previous time I went.

But last sunday - the pilot just gave the call I described in my post. (I only assume he didn't do the full monty as a cadet had just got out, and I climbed in) so in effect he was still "running" in the a/c and there was no need if he had the ATIS info on his kneeboard.

We don't get kneeboard (just get issued the growbag with no plastic), so I can't make notes like callsign etc for when I do r/t, so the pilot simply has to dictate the call and I repeat - not particularly stimulating (esp. when it is a long one and I stuff up the callsign!!)

[Warped Factor]

Ahhhh, 12 AEF (http://www.habu.freeserve.co.uk/12aef.htm), those were the days :)

WF.

[Hummingfrog]

Hi WF

Those pics brought back a few memories form the late 80s/early 90s. Still can't get the downwind checks for the Chipmunk out of my head:-

My Friend Fred Had Hairy B*lls:D

HF

[Spacer]

mgdavsio:

If you are serious about the radios, etc... then this publication should help you nicely along the way. The best bit is that its free online. It should give you some good pointers, although I appreciate its not a mil pub, its still got some very useful info.

CAP 413 (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP413.PDF)

[Bigears]

WF,
Brought back memories for me too- I was a Staff Cadet at 12AEF in the early 80's, and I know of one other that graces PPRUNE.
Weren't the Bosses stories wonderful?

Sorry to go a bit off-topic.

[mgdaviso]

Thanks to everyone for their input so far - I was down at the sqn last night, and noticed said poster on wall there, so I have the circuit information now.

Thanks for the link to the R/T information - much appreciated.

[Warped Factor]

Bigears,

PPRune Radar was a staff cadet on 12 AEF at the same time as myself, gave hime a lift down to Turnhouse on the back of my motorbike now and again :)

The Boss's tales of his expoits in Meteors and Javelins were indeed wonderful, it was a sad day a few years ago when I heard he'd passed away :(

To someone who at the time wanted to do nothing else other than fly in the RAF (subsequently failed the medical at Biggin though :{ ), he was an inspiration.

Hummingfrog,

I'm part of a group that's currently selling their Chipmunk, want to buy it and relive old times? :D


WF.

[bowly]

Someone selling a chipmunk!!! How much? Any further details....

[Warped Factor]

bowly,

Check your PMs.

WF.

[Hummingfrog]

WF

What pay to fly:D. I prefer the other way round - fly for pay:ok:

HF

[mgdaviso]

Next question, what info do you have on your kneeboards?

do you have a pre-printed insert that goes behind the plastic, if so can anyone describe it?

thank you.

[Need for Speed!]

mgdaviso...check your PM's...:ok:

[kluge]

WF - sorry to put u through this again.

Could u please supply details on your Chipster.

I just might be interested - Would also be interested to know what happened to the ex Finningley AEF Chippies.

Good old 148 Sqn ATC - Barnsley "al bet thas never pulled a cricket ball artava cow's arse afore, vitnery"

K

[Warped Factor]

klug,

PM sent.

"Chipmunk, The First Fifty Years" says that as at Jan 1994 the Finningley Chipmunks were WD390, WG407, WK590 and WK638.

WD390 is now G-BWNK

WG407 is now G-BWMX

WK590 is now G-BWVZ (now based in Belgium)

WK638 is now G-BWJZ (doesn't seem to have a current CofA)

Those the ones you were looking for?

WF.

[kluge]

WF many thx for PM. Will follow up seperately.

I believe WG407 was the one I had my first AEF in.
Good memories.

[jayteeto]

:D I would just like to say that today has been the best days flying I have had in years. Eight AEF trips with cadets, absolutely PERFECT weather and all of the cadets had stomachs of steel. My poor little Tutor must have sore wings tonight. Thanks for listening!! :D

[Studefather]

JT2
Sounds like a cracking day and sounds like you may be able to help with the following.

No. 1 son is 1st year VR UAS and has made good progress so far, generally high debrief marks, 1st solo by Easter etc. Understand that from Sept UAS flying will be AEF only and the EFT course will be terminated.
Q1. Can he continue to do the EFT syllabus during AEF?
Q2. Will this be qualifying hours for his logbook?
Q3. Any other info on the proposed changes to UAS?

Thanks

[FEBA]

Like Gibso I haven't a clue how to fly the Grob either. Perhaps someone could show me ? Unlike MG I don't mind doing the odd aero or two , how about a few gentle flick manoeuvres just to ease me into it.
I'd be grateful if you can pick me up at Saltby please.
Thanks

[jayteeto]

No idea about binning UAS in sept. Has this been announced yet? Rumours abound but there are so many that it isn't worth listening till the fat lady sings. Tell him to get there as much as possible to hog some flying just in case!!

[mgdaviso]

going back on topic..... this is culled direct from a poster supplied to all ATC units... can any of our resident two winged heros confirm it is current please.... off to 5 AEF on Sunday

Tutor Circuits

Pre take off checks

Fuel Sufficient, BOTH
Trim Set Take OFF
RPM HIGH
Mixture Best power
Alt Air COLD
Flaps take off
Aux Fuel Pump ON
Pitot ON
Lights ON
Mute OFF
Flight Instruments
Nav Aids
CWP Clear
Harness SECURE
Canopy CLOSED
Controls full and free
T/O Brief

TAKE OFF

70Kts Flaps TAKE OFF
80Kts Flaps UP
500ft Start turn (20 deg bank)

CROSSWIND LEG

800ft Level off
MAP 17”


DOWNWIND LEG
Callsign “downwind to roll/land”
Revs HIGH
Mixture Best POW
Alt Air COLD
Flaps TAKE OFF
Fuel PUMP ON
Cont & bal
Fuel Cock BOTH
Harness SECURE
Canopy CLOSED
Brakes OFF

BASE LEG
Revs 2100 Revs
Bank 20 Deg
IAS 75 Kts
Callsign “ FINALS”

FINALS
400ft Flap LAND
IAS 70Kts
TOES CLEAR

SHORT FINALS
IAS 65Kts

[Wholigan]

They've been changed. Easiest thing is to ask if someone could photocopy the appropriate pages for you when you are there.

[Uncle Ginsters]

There's plenty of information around for operating the Tutor from your specific a/f....next time you can get to the airfield (or even in writing), might i suggest that you request copies of:

a. The relevant sections of the Student Study Guide (SSG)
b. A copy of the Tutor Flight Reference Cards
c. A copy of that airfield's (Cranwell?) R/T guide
d. The notes for the UAS Crit Points 1 and 2.

**Be advised though, these are all subject to amendment**

The UAS should be able to help there.

Studefather,
As for the UAS changes, they've already been covered here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=190989)

In short, the answers to your questions are:

1. He can continue the EFT syllabus until the changeover, due to be around Apr 06. After that, the re-qualified AEF QFIs will only be ratified to teach certain elements of it.
2. Qualify for what in his logbook? For Dual - only if with an 'unrestricted' QFI. For PPL/NPPL - the hours will count towards it but not in toto for the license.
3. As mentioned in the above link for the changes. Your son will have all the gen from his UAS.

Uncle G:ok:

[mgdaviso]

**Be advised though, these are all subject to amendment**

Hence the reason for asking.... I was hoping to get up to speed before I went - that's the problem when you only go flying1/2 doz times a year, by the time the next slot comes around the info you have gained from the previous sortie is out of date....


But I'll ask anyway - thanks for your replies.

[FrogPrince]

Chaps,

Can I throw in a mercenary question or two?

I've been helping as a CI at a local ATC Sqn for about a year now - mainly mid week evenings (PoF, Airmanship I/II, Ops Flying) - and am finally CRB'ed after only 12 months....! I'm also working towards my PPL(A).

Q1. Does the VT contract permit CI's to get an occasional trip aloft ?

Q2. Are the AEF instructors all ex-Regular RAF pilots or is it possible to convert a PPL(A) to something the RAFR would recognise ?

[Wholigan]

A1. Your AEF merely has to get permission from 1EFTS at Cranwell to give you "the occasional trip".

A2. You need to hold/have held military wings in order to fly air cadets with an AEF. (Yes I know there is one individual who is the exception to this rule)

[dinoorin]

FrogPrince,

Wholigan is right about the PPL and AEF pilot requirment.
However all is not lost, try the local VGS. Depending on where you live you will either have the opportunity to fly the Vigilant (power) or Viking (proper glider)
Before you get sniffy like some people do, just remember -
1. The VGS instructors are still authorised and 'trapped' by CFS
2. A VGS teaches the youngsters to fly, not just do Aeros, this teaching to first solo can be very rewarding. More so in my opinion than 20 minute rides.
3. Depending on the airframe you will still be able to do Aeros (Viking) or do lots of local area flying (Vigilant)

However all this fun comes at a price. Most VGS members are CI's (i.e. dont get payed, expenses only). You will be expected to do one day every weekend (well most weekends anyway). In return you will get far better flying training than PPL and be far more current. In my experience the flying skill / aptitude for the senior category VGS instructors is the same as for the regs. Also the team spirit on the VGS rules (hence the reason I fly at one)

Good luck with the PPL and enjoy the flying.

Dinoorin

[mgdaviso]

Frogprince

Q1, depening on your AEF, the adult escorting cadets should be offered a sortie.

This however is an opportunity and not a right. It has been known for some adult staff to spit dummies out when refused a flight.

this can be for many reasons
You'll usually always fly last, and the weather may be closing to minimums
There may be no airframe or pilot available
You may have run out of time.
Your attitude. (not saying its wrong BTW)

My AEF always usually offer a flight to escorting staff.

If in doubt, don't wait to be asked, but ask nicely (don't ask the FSC - ask the boss or the duty instructor), the worst they can say is "sorry not today"

I haven't been refused yet........then again we are tasked at an ace AEF.

[Another St Ivian]

(don't ask the FSC - ask the boss or the duty instructor)

Don't be so quick to snub the humble FSC's! When I was an FSC at 5 AEF I always made efforts to get staff flying if so requested. In fact, I do believe that on a few occasions I was FSC'ing whilst you were visiting.

ASI

[The Helpful Stacker]

Ahhh the Chipmunk, many happy memories of sitting in the back of one of them wearing Irvin's finest.

I always wondered what would have resulted from actually having to yank the little yellow ball toggle, pull the handle twice and in those immortal words,

"Jump jump Johnny."

"Jump jumping Sir...."

:oh:

[mgdaviso]

Don't be so quick to snub the humble FSC's! When I was an FSC at 5 AEF I always made efforts to get staff flying if so requested. In fact, I do believe that on a few occasions I was FSC'ing whilst you were visiting.

ASI

I've never been to 5AEF at it's current location, so I don't know who you are thinking I am.....

Apart from our regular AEF, that does have a FSC who is a jolly nice chap, on the other AEF's I have been to the FSC's have had an appaulingly deluded sense of grandeur - especially to the escorting staff.

I'm not about to start asking a Cadet NCO if I can fly, when I can quite happily go and speak to a fellow officer.

The FSC is usually too busy anyway......

Sorry if this doesn't fit with you, but it's how I see it.

[FrogPrince]

Excellent. Thanks a bunch for the gen, folks.

Now I'm CRB cleared I can take the wee dears to Linton's VGS. There's no way I'd be so foolish and rude as to demand a free flight but now I know 'the form' about registering a serious interest beyond being the ATC taxi driver.

I presume it would be okay to ask about sitting in on some of the ground school lessons too ? (No harm in reinforcing the most important learning messages.)

In terms of giving back, do the VGS only fly or do they do AT, mil skills etc. ?

[Centralize]

I too am selling a chipmunk share based at Wellesbourne Mountford. Anyone interested PM me.

Bowly - cx yr PM's

C

[Another St Ivian]

mgdaviso: Have PM'ed you.

[Dusty_B]

mgdaviso said
I'm not about to start asking a Cadet NCO if I can fly, when I can quite happily go and speak to a fellow officer.

Now back in my day as a FSC, that would certainly have gone down as "bad attitude"... The boss would have turned you round and pointed you in my direction.

[mgdaviso]

frogprince:

No, VGS's (Volunteer Gliding Squadrons as they are now called) only do gliding.

They are there to serve the Air Cadet Squadrons with gliding experience and training. If you have any other q's then feel free to pm me.

Dusty_B
I guess that depends on the relationship with your AEF staff, and how your AEF is run... with my AEF, the boss and the pilots have no problems with a chat and a request....

I apologise If I appear to be tarring everyone with the same brush. too many bad experiences with FSC's - I am sure that they are not all like that in reality. :ok: