Crash In Gloucester, 2 Injured

[WhirlyGirl Sarah]

From the BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/gloucestershire/4528035.stm):

A pilot and his passenger have been airlifted to hospital after his helicopter crashed into a house.

The helicopter was trying to land at Ockington Farm, near Dymock, Gloucestershire, when it hit the roof of the farm and crashed.

The 63-year-old pilot was airlifted to hospital in Cheltenham. His passenger, a woman, had to be cut from the wreck. She was airlifted to Selly Oak Hospital in Birmingham, where her injuries are considered life-threatening.

The woman suffered chest, abdomen and pelvic injuries. The helicopter was French-registered, a Glochestershire Police spokesman said. He added an investigation was under way.

Hope they are ok...

WGS

[Flying Lawyer]

I'm told they were returning in their Gazelle from a helicopter fly-in near Thruxton, and that the accident happened at their house.
The pilot is 'walking wounded' but his wife's injuries are serious and, as the report says, life-threatening.

It would be a kindness to their friends who post on or read this forum not to start speculating about the cause, and just hope the lady pulls through.

[WhirlyGirl Sarah]

Wishing those involved a speedy recovery...
Thoughts are with you.

All the best,
WGS

[fflyboy101]

Fingers crossed that she makes a full recovery.

Best wishes

fb101

[Vfrpilotpb]

Piece in the daily rag, states the Lady pax is in a more stable condition today, I hope she makes a full recovery!!

Vfr

[SilsoeSid]

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41127000/jpg/_41127477_chopperwreckage.jpghttp://www.geocities.com/pprunessilsoesid/gazcrash.jpg http://www.geocities.com/pprunessilsoesid/gazcrash2.jpg

[bladewashout]

I just can't imagine how any family would feel with the couple both hurt and physical reminders of their chopper in bits outside the back window and presumably a none-too-happy looking roof on your house. Nowhere to get away from it.

Irrespective of how/why it happened, getting back in and flying again would be challenging to say the least.

My best wishes to them

BW

[SilsoeSid]

Now thats what I call, 'Severe moderation !'

An explaination might have been nice!

Regards,

SS

[Heliport]

Back to the thread .....

The lady was very seriously injured, has undergone surgery and, although 'stable' in hospital speak, is still in a bad way.

[volrider]

I seem to have had my post along with others removed, this I find offensive as I did not state anything derogatroy or insulting, in fact I can not see what I said that would cause any offence to anyone who read my post?? I did not even have had the decency of an explanation. WHY WAS THIS ??

I guess this one also will not last very long, my best wishes to the injured parties who are making a recovery.




Your post was a response to a post which was removed.
I thought the reason for removing yours with it would be obvious.
Obviously not.

Heliport

[Heliport]

I'm pleased to report that the lady has now come out of her coma.
However, she is still seriously ill and in Intensive Care.

[[email protected]]

Yet another occasion when the ambulance authority and the police failed to notify the ARCC at Kinloss since they are theoretically responsible for the coordination of response to aeronautical incidents. If people don't use the SAR assets for what they meant for, don't be surprised when they are packaged up and sold off to be replaced with a cheaper but far less capable PFI.

[pilotwolf]

Yet another occasion when the ambulance authority and the police failed to notify the ARCC at Kinloss

From my vast experience in the ambulance service I doubt that most of the control room staff - if any have even heard of the ARCC!

The control rooms are so busy and understaffed these days, along with the high staff turn over, poor back ground training and on some shifts the control rooms are like a kindergarden with the average age around 20 and behaviour levels closer to 8 year olds. Some (ambulance) dispatchers are not even aware of the resources available to them for 'normal' everyday incidents - forunately aircraft incidents are still not a common event in most areas. And if 'knowledgable' crews point out that maybe A or B would be available or helpful it is often seen as 'being told their job' and will result in you definately not getting A or B... most definately wrong but true.

I went to an aircraft incident a while back which resulted in some serious injuries and trying to explain to the (non airfield) senior fire officer that his men shouldn't really be poking around the wreckage and/or moving things/tidying it up as the AAIB might want to have a good look was met with "Who the f***are the AAIB?" and when told he simply replied "Never heard of them and it's their problem to sort it out then - not mine..."

PW

[ec135driver]

Just to put one small part of the record straight re: ARCC Kinloss. I was the pilot of the Air Ambulance that was first on scene, arriving a few minutes before the Fire Service.

My first task after requesting additional ambulance service backup and a police presence to secure the scene, was to get the make and registration of the aircraft which our control then passed immediately to ARCC Kinloss

I would also like to use this opportunity to commend my two paramedic crew who, without a thought for their own safety, jumped into a burning aircraft to render immediate aid to the female passenger. They were subsequently doused in dry powder by the enthusiatic fire service! (who also did a terrific job)

A comment on the post about preserving the scene for the AAIB: First we save life, then we save property, then if there is anything else left to save, we save that. Then we leave it for the AAIB - I'm sure they wouldn't have it any other way.

[TeeS]

Hi EC135, totally agree with your comments about the crew, I only heard the full details yesterday - please pass on my congratulations. As I understand it, without their actions the title of this thread would have read rather differently!

Crab, there may be a problem of Ambulance/Police controls not informing ARCC of aircraft incidents. However, you need to realise that some of the smaller Ambulance controls are run by a similar number of staff that run the ARCC. The difference is in the number of calls they will be handling! In addition to taking the calls, responding vehicles, liaising with other services, they may also have to give CPR instruction etc. to distraught relatives over the phone – and then the Air Ambulance wants better details of the incident location! (And this is coming from someone who gripes about Ambulance controls more than most.)

In this particular case, the ARCC was informed (as I understand it) within 15 minutes of the incident. There was no requirement for search, as the house address gave a pretty accurate idea of the incident location, rescue was best carried out by the Fire and Ambulance crews who arrived within a few minutes. Therefore, the priorities for the control were to respond Air Ambulance, Fire Service and Road Ambulances as quickly as possible and that is what happened.

Our Air Ambulance controller (1 bloke, 3 helicopters, 2 radios, 3 phone lines) has an initial priority of responding the helicopter towards the incident, working out a grid reference, informing Police control rooms (for all 3 helicopters!) and then informing ARCC if it is an aircraft incident. Again, this is what happened.

Using this incident to promote the future of Military SAR is misguided at best. I think you will find the vast majority of us out here, are already supporters and would be more than happy to see Military SAR resources coming to our aid.

TeeS

[Thomas coupling]

This is a control room call.
There is no need to call the RCC in this instance, why should there be???
Would the SAR local unit be called out? I think not.

We do a couple of these each and every year probably more - certainly wouldnt call the RCC - UNLESS there is confusion/doubt as to what has happened and where the crash scene is. OR the military are involved.


This is a cut and shut case! Dont want the bloody crabs hovering overhead wingeing!!!

Calm down Crab@Saavn...

[Flying Lawyer]

Brave paramedics. :ok:

From what I've heard -
The pilot was injured but able to get out. His wife was more seriously injured, and trapped in the wreckage. He wasn't able to put out the fire with the onboard extinguisher but, despite being injured himself, managed to get to the house for a bigger extinguisher and fought the fire as much as he could with that.
He tried (I think with the help of a neighbour) to get his wife out of the helicopter but she eventually had to be cut free by the emergency services.

As TeeS says, the title of this thread could so easily have read rather differently.

[[email protected]]

Aeronautical Rescue Coordination Centre is what it stands for and that is one of its main responsibilities - it then tasks the appropriate asset for the job.

Problem 1 - the ARCC can't task Police or Air Ambulance.

Problem 2 - if the AA or ASU pitch up and can't handle the incident (although it sound like they did a very commendable job on this one), because no-one launches the SAR crew, the response time is much slower.

If we got launched to every aircraft crash in UK (as we should) and then got turned back because the situation was under control, none of us would complain. What we get gripped about is being left out of the equation completely when it might make a difference.

In Scotland the ARCC works closely with the other air assets, why not in England and Wales?

[ec135driver]

Crab, I can't quite see the logic behind your statement that you should be tasked to every aircraft crash in the UK?

The services in the UK (Fire, Ambulance, Police) have contingency plans for all kinds of incidents, major, minor, aviation or otherwise. Where appropriate these include liaison with the armed services and their resources.

What skills can you bring that we (the civvy world) can't muster?
The two crew in my cab have some of the most advanced skills available to paramedics in the UK and a basics doctor is always on call in the county. My crew operate around aircraft every day and deal with impact related trauma on a continous basis. The fire service deal with - well, fire and the police are well versed in scene preservation after serious incidents.

A Gazelle on it side looks pretty much like a large saloon car rolled over. Jet A is a posh version of diesel.

What would you have in your cab that no other civilian service could bring to the scene and in less time? That's not a snide remark - I am interested to understand why you feel you should automatically be tasked?

[TeeS]

Hi Crab

Sorry, but I can't resist copying one of your quotes from a previous thread and ask how it compares with your 'slagging off' Ambulance Services and Air Ambulances and then suggesting SAR aircraft should be launched to all air crashes and warning Military SAR will be lossed if it is not used.

"Maybe you should look at how many jobs you get launched to that aren't really essential but keep your callout stats high to please the charity and the NHS and then consider your exposure time to the 'FJ threat' during non-urgent lifesaving flights.

I am sure I seem hard nosed and unreasonable about this but everyone loves to slag off the military because we are an easy target."

TeeS

And a further 'sorry', I have just realised this is getting well off the thread!

[[email protected]]

EC135 - day/night/all weather capability, a large cabin with room for more than one stretcher, the ability to get in and out of difficult sites without needing to comply with Cat A procedures and a winch. Is that enough?

Your paramedics did very well but I suspect not all of them are as brave as those 2 - it's not exactly in their job spec to fight fires and rescue people is it? At least our winchmen are used to operating in hazardous situations and they are trained in post crash management and can advise the fire service when they are getting it wrong.

Tees - I am only arguing that the most appropriate asset should do the job. In an ideal world, all heli assets in the UK would be tasked through a central control but, as I have said before, when an ambulance authority has a helo it feels the need to use it for every callout regardless of patient need. If I had a pound for every casualty lifted from the beaches of North Devon by the AA that has to fly from Exeter, overhead Chivenor, to get there - leaving the cas waiting for up to an hour while there is a SAR helo 2 mins away.........
If this Gazelle had been in a slightly more difficult location, they would have had to wait for the AA to turn up, realise they couldn't assist and then have the SAR ac tasked; it could already be on the way. Or if both casualties had needed immediate evacuation on stretchers the SAR ac could have provided backup to the AA.

[whoateallthepies]

Crab
Your initial complaint that RCC was not advised has been debunked by ec135 who was first on scene.

Your comment that the 2 paramedics "did very well" was condescending in the extreme, they did a superb job.

"At least our winchmen are used to operating in hazardous situations and they are trained in post crash management". Do you not believe that paramedics are used to operating in hazardous situations? Don't you know that as part of their training they are taught to deal with post crash management? Air Ambulance paramedics see a lot more serious trauma than your average winchman

"I suspect not all of them are as brave as those 2"!
I suspect not all winchmen are as brave as those two! Do you like the sound of that? I thought not. As an ex-crab SAR man who has been involved with UK EMS flying for the past 12 years I can assure you that the paramedics I have worked with have all been as brave and dedicated as the winchmen I was privileged to fly with. And that's saying something (as you know).

Ambulance control centres are busy places and it is up to the crew attending a job to tell the centre to call ARCC. Certainly in Yorkshire, if the AA was attending a job where they felt SAR would be the best asset, they would get comms to ring Kinloss. Or if attending a major RTC ( for instance a bus-load of pensioners crashed on the York bypass) the crew would make sure ARCC was informed so Leconfield could help. At the Selby train crash, apart from both Yorkshire and Lancashire AA attending, there were two RAF Sea Kings.

So I agree. You shouldn't be left out of the equation completely when it might make a difference. And I also agree that in an ideal world there would be some central tasking agency for SAR and AA helos but there isn't. Your North Devon beach example is shocking and I hope that kind of situation can be resolved locally.

Don't get "gripped". I can assure you and your colleagues that AA crews have nothing but respect and admiration for UK SAR crews and the the job you do. But this wasn't one for you.

[ec135driver]

Sorry Crab but you still havn't substantiated your claim that SAR assets should be tasked to all aircraft crashes in the UK.

Consider that tasking must be relevant to the nature of the incident and the terrain/time. This incident occurred on a sunny sunday afternoon in rural herefordshire, at the home of the aircraft owner (who made the initial call himself) Its a fair bet that in this circumstance access is reasonable, we assume he drives a car and can park at home.

We took off at 1700 at were on scene at 1710, the fire service attended minutes after us. The Police helicopter attended within 10 minutes of our arrival (thats my recollection, not a recorded time). Had I felt it necessary, I could have requested a second aircraft from our group, which would have been on scene within approx 20mins. Now lets say a resource was activated from chivenor? track distance about 85nm, time?

Our patient was at a major trauma unit in birmingham at 1805

If the call had stated that an aircraft had crashed into the side of Pen y Fan at 0100 then you might well be the most appropriate response, but you simply cannot say that you should be tasked to every aircraft accident in the uk.

Oh and by the way, it is offensive to suggest that there are air paramedics who are not as brave as the two I carried that day. Do you have winchmen who take a look out the back on a wet night and say "not tonight guv"? No I didn't think so.

Secondly, my aircraft is day/night/ifr capable, with the capability for fully coupled approaches to 50'. The only things we lack at the moment are a winch and nvg.

[EjectEject]

Crab, I am a great supporter of SAR work and the RCC. I have spent many weeks at such SAR Flights then based at Coltishall, Brawdy and Lossiemouth, flying and being educated by good SAR flight crews about what SAR work entails. This was as a result of a lack of knowledge within the organisation I work for. At the time I was involved in none aviation work, but set out to educate myself and pass that training/experience on and have done so since. I am now involved in aviation work and continue to educate SAR work where I can.

However, your comments:

“Your paramedics did very well but I suspect not all of them are as brave as those 2 - it's not exactly in their job spec to fight fires and rescue people is it?”

is just insulting to other paramedics and other Emergency workers. I am not a paramedic to make that clear.

What do you think the average Emergency worker does each and very day when they are sent to incidents. Whether it be on the roads, railways, industrial accident, house fire or any type of incident you want to think of. The Police, Fire or Ambulance can’t choreograph their response so that if there is a fire, the Fire Services will arrive first and put out any fire. Then when its safe, the Ambulance crew arrives and deals with any casualties. Finally, the Police could then come along and sort it all out for a Coroner etc. This is the real world. The call goes out and they all make their way to do what they can – to save lives – not matter what the risk. Who gets there first, means they do what they can until the specialists for that situation arrives and deals. Sometimes they even come across incidents. What would you have them do then?

Prior to my aviation days, I have found myself times in the above situation where I could have done with another specialist service on scene befoe me and my colleagues. But my colleagues and I did the best that we could to help people.

This is going on every day by ORDINARY people. I have been to umpteen Cab crashes over the years where the ORDINARY public have done ORDINARY actions to save the crew, both civil and military.

Crab, your talk of bravery as you have, is an insult. Bravery - “quality of spirit that enables you to face danger of pain without showing fear” - is not selective, its generally spontaneous and without thought. It is in anyone, given the right circumstances.

Now going back towards one of your earlier posts. Your issue was that the RCC was not informed. Well I think two posters have said it was, one giving an approximate time.

Instead of moaning about not being called, why don’t you educate. Again, another poster has pointed out the situations within Ambo control rooms. It’s the same at Police and Fire too. Not so at the RCC and I have been there to see for myself. One of my SAR educators from years gone by works there. It may get busy, but not to the level of the others I have spoken of. So why not start an education program. Educate the civil control rooms, come along to controller courses, come along to HEMS and Police ASU courses. There are lots of inputs your organisation could contribute towards. I do not think I have ever been on a course where RAF SAR has ever been a contributor. And if you were to say to me, your organisation does not get invited, then I would politely suggest that RAF SAR should be approaching the civil Emergency Worker world and selling themselves at grass routes level.

The grass routes level is the important bit. They are the one's that press the big red button at times we are speaking of, not those who may have attended very expensive conferences on such subjects which your organisation may send a rep to, but grass routes cannot.

The other area you could look at is trying to get your protocols for attendance changed, Instead of you having to rely on requests. It may be difficult, but at least try.

Another problem is the perception of SAR. People still call it Air, Sea, Rescue. People (including most emergency workers) still think its all to do with winching out of water at the seaside. Perception, not the reality. But that view gets firmer the more inland you go. You need to do something about that.

And by the way, post crash management is just the same as preserving the scene at any fatal / major road traffic collision, with all its H & S issues considered. They do that lots every day to, getting it right nearly 100% of the time. Do you get it right 100% time?

[Crashondeck]

....cheaper but far less capable PFI.

Brave claim, Crab. This dick swinging contest has already been done on pprune and showed how badly informed the military are when it comes to the cabability of their HMCG cousins.

But that is beside the point. The country is littered with emergency air assets, with little coordination between them. At the end of the day it is vitally important that the casualty gets assistance as quickly as possible, ie from the closest asset that is likely to be able to assist. If a man calls 999 to say he crashed his helicopter when landing at his house, it is reasonable to assume that an air ambulance 10mins away is the best asset, together with the local fire brigade. The casualty has to come first and if that means that the protocol that requires ARCCK to coordinate all aircraft crashes is overlooked then so be it.

Moreover, how would a family feel if their son had drowned on the N Devon coast because the Chivenor cab was away up country responding to a job it is not required for? Assigning assets is not just about capability, it is also about retaining cover for other incidents.

I agree Crab, there needs to be better coordination between all emergency services' airbourne assets. Maybe this should be part of the harmonisation of SAR assets in 2012.

[Bertie Thruster]

Last week the Lincs/Notts air ambulance hosted an RAF Flt Lt ARCC controller for a day.

We received an excellent and detailed powerpoint presentation on the ARCC and the assets it controls. The controller was also able to observe our own control and operating procedures during 8 callouts that day.

[[email protected]]

First and foremost - I do not denigrate any paramedic - I appear to have damned them with faint praise unintentionally. If you want me to say they did a fantastic job I will. Equally if you want to jump to conclusions about my views on paramedics (which some of you certainly have, and come to the wrong ones) then that is up to you.

Secondly - EC135 passed the aircraft reg to his control room who passed it to the ARCC - that is nowhere near the same as the ARCC being alerted to the incident straight away as they should be.

Third - the being out of area comment is farcical - how would your patient feel if the AA didn't launch because it was a. US, b. fogged in or c. on another job.

Fourth - how long does it take an AA to generate a second aircraft and crew and do all ambulance authorities have access to 2 aircraft?

Lastly - I am not slagging off civvy SAR as it stands at the moment but when Harmonisation occurs and the DfT looks at the bill for the whole of UKSAR, the bean counters will start cutting corners and capability - hence my comments. Will the CAA allow operators to hover taxi up the sides of mountains or under wires in cloud day or night? Let's see shall we.

[mustfly1]

Quote:-
"Will the CAA allow operators to hover taxi up the sides of mountains or under wires in cloud day or night? Let's see shall we."
They already do.

[Bertie Thruster]

Crab. You said;

"If I had a pound for every casualty lifted from the beaches of North Devon by the AA that has to fly from Exeter, overhead Chivenor, to get there - leaving the cas waiting for up to an hour while there is a SAR helo 2 mins away........."

Has that new air ambulance base at Barnstaple started yet?

[Thomas coupling]

Crab:I want to let you into a little secret:

The mil isn't the be all and end all. Having done 3 tours on Seakings and S61's SAR. 2 in the UK and 1 in N America, I probably have more hours than you in that regard.
I can count less than 10 OVERLAND rescues I did in the 6 years that saw me scrambling over telephone wires or creeping up mountain valleys... As you well know, there comes a limit where even the hallowed don't go :\
Of the hundreds remaining, they were all done in controlled circumstances where I believed I was coming home!
So lets not start comparing hero mil stories with civvy operators whose remit is not quite the same as yours.

Some FACTS for you:

Paramedics are BETTER trained than your crewmen. They train and practice their art DAILY. Your crewmen are not to the same medical standard as these guys.

In my 6 years as a HEMS driver, in 99% of cases (including in the middle of nowhere) where it was needed - firecrews were either there first or shortly thereafter. It is mainly down to these brave souls who go in and extricate the dead and injured [They also are left behind to pick up the personal belongings and wash all the gore away - people forget that].
Your crews do not have the expertise or the equipment to compete with them.

Class A performance is not a requirement for HEMS. You dont need to comply - to save life.

I can park my EC135 into a 40' circle, can you??? I can land it in all your landing sites and many more. Car parks / roof tops / Quarries...can you.

I can fly 2 patients at any time.

In 11 years as a police/Hems pilot, I have never ever wished I'd had a bigger aircraft.

So what do we have left:

I would call/expect a SAR cab to turn up:

(a) If the job was offshore
(b) If the job required a winch.
(c) If the job was on a large scale.
(d) If the weather was below my minimums (300'c/b / 1km viz.)
(e) If the job was nearer you than me.

That's about it really. You are a fantastic asset. You are on loan to the public (until the next review, atleast!) when you consider that the REAL reason for your existence is to pick up the extremely rare downed mil aircrew.

There is a very real need for additional assistance like yours. There can never be enough aerial assets.

BUT you most certainly are not the number one call out asset and can never be, for reasons (some of which) you so clearly listed:


You're not the nearest.
Might turn the job down due to mil committments
Might be u/s (surely not?).
Might be on another job.

Don't take this personally - but just reconsider for a minute:

Civvies can be and are just as effective as the mil in all sorts of departments. Burst that bubble :ok:

[MightyGem]

Crab, I really think that you are belabouring the point here.

An aircraft crashed in a known, easily accesible position. Rescue services were on scene shortly after and Kinloss informed. I can only believe that from your opening post, that you weren't informed of the incident. Perhaps Kinloss thought that as everything was under control, they decided that your services weren't required. Perhaps you should direct your questions to them.

[SilsoeSid]

Further to Berties earlier post;

link (http://www.daat.org/RunScript.asp?page=&Article_ID=29&NWS=NWS&ap=NewsDetail.asp&p=ASP\~Pg0.asp)

Crab,

Perhaps if you can spare 20mins of your time, you could pop down and talk to them. While doing this you could check them out to see if they are good enough to fit into your plan. I expect the DAAT could let you have the 5% of Devon they are unable to cover in 5 minutes, although you may have to reposition yourselves to be able to respond in time!

While you are there, would you like to pick up an Anaphylaxis kit just incase that bee in your bonnet turns nasty and stings you!! :{

[[email protected]]

Yes I know the old 105 is being based in N Devon this year - it only goes to highlight the unsatisfactory arrangement of having one AA for a county the size of Devon and ignoring the other available asset (which is already paid for and doesn't the public to dig into their pocket to provide). In fact they were originally going to be based at Chivenor but I don't think they liked the crap accommodation.
Our paramedics are trained to NHS standard and have been for many years (in the RAF) so they are of the same standard as AA but don't get the same amount of hands on. The rules require them to complete exactly the same continuity and assessment training as any NHS paramedic so let's not slag the boys off for lack of capability (especially since they have to do it on moving decks, sides of mountains etc).
Mighty - the Gazelle fortunately did crash in an easily accessible area in benign conditions. But Kinloss were only informed once EC135 was on scene (this is my point and why I am labouring it) they didn't get to choose whether or not to send us in response to an initial call because no-one called them. In this case we would have been stood down en-route but at least we would have been airborne in case we were needed.
Mustfly - where is that then?(especially night)
TC is that 2 patients in stretchers? The 135 five is very nice but I don't think it is that big. You know that there is enough room in the Sea King for not only 2 stretchers but also for doctors/paramedics to work on those caualties effectively en-route.
I was not comparing our rearcrew with firecrew but with AA paramedics and I don't remember slagging the firemen off for not being brave.
And for the last time - my post was about use of the ARCC in coordinating responses to aircraft crashes (their job) not about who has the best capability or the biggest dick.
North Wales has an ideal situation since a previous SAR flight commander is now one of the AA pilots and redirects calls straight to the SAR flt if he thinks they might be needed. Does that qualify as military educating the EMS community? We in SAR are not the ones in a bubble of superiority - no-one here (except Bertie who is ex RAF) has suggested inviting their local SAR flt or the ARCC to brief them on what we do. There is only one ARCC and only 8 mil SAR flts - how many ambulance control rooms and AA units are there? We know how your system works but the comments of many here show they don't understand ours.

[Governormalfunction]

Just thought I'd ask...........

How is the lady involved in this very sad accident?

Driver please pass on my congratulations to DL & SK.

'Crab', you really need to sniff a very large strong coffee!!

Where has this thread gone??

[Crashondeck]

First of all I am glad to hear the lady has come out of the coma and I hope she continues to make a speedy recovery.

Crab,

I appreciate what you are trying to say and I know how important command and control is when dealing with incidents. After all someone has to coordinate the efforts of the various assets deemed necessary to respond to a tasking. There is no doubt that ARCC are the experts in coordinating response to air accidents.

But in this case, the pilot raised the alarm not on RT, but by telephone. We don't know what was said in the conversation with the 999 controller, but it would have been clear that the incident occured in a back garden of a rural, but not remote location. This incident is not about looking for an over due aircraft in the Highlands of Scotland or in the mountains of Wales. Nor are we talking about a large aircraft with many many passengers. As I said in my previous post and I am sure you will agree, the casualty must come first. Therefore given the FIRST HAND information the ambulance controller had, it would be perfectly reasonable to respond using an air ambulance and fire brigade. Involving ARCC would have delayed the response to the incident by at least a couple of phone calls. Following the proper protocols (which it seems has not been communicated to ambulance controls around the country) would almost certainly have delayed treatment reaching the casualty and that is simply not good.

[Anne Tenner]

Just an update for Governormalfunction and those of you concerned about the welfare of the lady involved. She has had major surgery, but is continuing to make progress. She is not breathing on her own yet, but is awake.

The pilot is also making progress. Relative to the lady he was not so badly injured, but even so, he was worse than we first realised, and I can’t imagine how he managed to climb out of the wreckage.

[Governormalfunction]

Cheers AT,

Thread back online then??

Gov.

[Presstransdown]

I wish to compliment Thomas Coupling on his recent reply to crab.

As a SAR pilot I am beginning to get concerned that his comments might be taken as in anyway representative of those of SAR crews in general.

They are not.

In fact, I cannot help thinking it must be a wind up!

The assets that were used on the task that prompted this thread were, as far as I am aware, by far the most suitable and the most qualified.

The average SAR machine is not ideal for this task, not least because it ties up an asset which maybe required in more appropriate circumstances.

I think thanks must go to everybody in the chain of recovery including the hospital.
If I ever end up in similar bother then a 135, a couple of well qualified paramedics, a pilot with some local knowledge and a quick transfer to hospital will do me fine thanks.

As regards the CAA not allowing this or that, I have never had the CAA question my judgement in carrying out any tasking although I fully expect to do so should they ask.
I cannot see that they would ever now or in the future say no to a job requiring the saving of life providing that it was fully justifiable.

By justifiable I mean that

1) The casualties are in immediate danger
2) There is no quicker or safer way of accomplishing the task
3) The risk to the helicopter and crew should be balanced against the condition of the casualties.
4) The competence of the crew and helicopter capability must be considered
5) Most importantly of all, third parties must not be put at undue risk.

Apologies for straying slightly away from the thread again but it had to be said

[[email protected]]

Presstransdown - I would suggest that my comments are representative of the military SAR world ie 8 flights around UK but maybe not your world (3 flights).

Once again I have to explain that in this Gazelle crash the outcome was very satisfactory but not due to planning or following procedure and that had there been any other complications (the pilot turns out to have had worse injuries than first appeared but he couldn't have been given the option to be stretchered to hospital because the asset on scene can't carry 2 stretchers at once) the outcome could have been different since the ARCC was only involved late on.

Press- how many searches have you had to do after dark even though the casualty went missing in the middle of the day? The same mentality that prevents people asking for a SAR aircraft straight away when we might have a chance of saving them is the mindset I am trying to fight against.
Proper coordination of airborne assets in UK is essential - so far we have been lucky.

[What Limits]

So now you drive a wedge between you and your Civilian SAR mates - do you speak for Royal Navy SAR as well?

We do need a coordinated and consistent airborne response to all needs - but it will never happen with your divisive attitude.

[Presstransdown]

Crab

Thanks for your reply

Respectfully I still can not see your point.
Are you saying that we should send a large SAR helicopter to every incident on the off chance that it may turn out to be much worse than reported?

Imagine that taken across all the emergency services!
Presumably ARCC would only dispatch the most appropriate asset.

This would mean quite rightly that the SAR machine remains at its base

I know that it only takes a phone call to involve ARCC. Should additional help be required they then just press a button.

Surely the incident that prompted this thread would have happened this way had it been required.
Press- how many searches have you had to do after dark even though the casualty went missing in the middle of the day?
In answer to the above, I have to say that if we and the police were scrambled to every missing person without proper investigation then we would all be airborne 24hrs a day.

I regard this as proper co-ordination of assets.
Presstransdown - I would suggest that my comments are representative of the military SAR world ie 8 flights around UK but maybe not your world (3 flights).
And finally I have to admit that the only SAR Pilots/Crewmen I have had the pleasure of working with are the very experienced Civilian, Ex military RAF/Navy guys, many of them having been there, done that, got the T shirt a few times over.

By the way, it is 4 flights at the moment.

Cheers

[212man]

"By the way, it is 4 flights at the moment."

Beat me to it! I wonder which one was missed; I'm sure they'd be pleased to know.

[[email protected]]

Sorry - I should have specified 24 hour SAR flts.

I have also said I am talking about aircraft crashes, for which the ARCC has responsibility - not all the other incidents.

If the ARCC had been informed then I am sure that they would not have launched a SAR cab but my point is they should be given the choice because they are the coordinators.

[Bertie Thruster]

At the emergency services debrief for the Kegworth (M1) crash in 1989, I understand a senior police officer asked who was responsible for sending the military SAR helicopter that landed on the motorway unannounced about an hour into the rescue operation, frightening the hell out of everyone on the ground.

A few years later, at a disaster plan coordination exercise for the Southend Airshow, (scenario; Red Arrows opposition pair collide, one aircraft dives into large crowd on sea front, the other crashes into the sea with pilot ejecting) I heard the RAF SAR representative, when asked what action the nearest RAF SAR unit would take, tell the stunned meeting that the Seaking crew would search for the missing pilot!

[TeeS]

Hi Bertie

I think the RAF SAR representative was quite correct - as I understand the situation, that is his prime role and what the aircraft is best equipped for. In the early stages of an air show incident the only immediate helicopter role would probably be for the the Police Helicopter. Even the poor old Air Ambulance crews would be sitting back watching the activities. Only after the initial triage of patients in the field hospital would available air and road assets evacuate the most appropriate injuries.

P.S. Had sight of SK's boots and flying overalls yesterday, now that's hot!!! Thankyou to the Fire Service for looking after his good looks!

TeeS

[[email protected]]

The Reds pilot would have to help us find him as our homers wouldn't be any use!! He'd be boring the injured masses with tales of 9-ship derring do and shooting his wristwatch down.

[TeeS]

Yep, come to think of it you are right Crab, he would just walk back to shore:ok:

TeeS