Tally-Ho anyone?

[Glonass]

Could someone enlighten me as to whether or not there is a term “Tally-Ho” used in dog-fighting or military aviation per say? If so, could you help me with the etymology of the expression?

BTW I’ve tried Google and PPRuNe’s search engine and no joy.

Thanks in advance.

[Impiger]

Tally Ho often shortened to Tally is a NATO pro-word (codeword) for visual contact with the enemy (the word 'visual' is used to mean visual contact with a friend). The expression comes from fox hunting where Tally Ho means the fox is in sight and the chase is on. Quite why fox hunters use it I've no idea.

[flipster]

MJ,

No offence, Mike but, that has to be the saddest bit of 'triv spotting' I ever did see or hear! You really should get out more!

[tmmorris]

Sorry, Mike, but 0.16secs probably explains why it's such a load of cr@p...

Yes, there's plenty of evidence that Tally-ho comes from French. But the rest of that is pure baloney. For a start, no-one ever says the words in that order or in that way. 'Hark forward', pronounced 'hike forrard', means 'listen, I can hear the hounds straight ahead' - something completely different.

I guess this annoys me just as much as hearing someone invent an explanation for NATO pro-words who didn't actually understand or use them would annoy you...

Tim

PS Oxford Concise English dictionary online:

tally-ho

• exclamation a huntsman’s cry to the hounds on sighting a fox.

— ORIGIN apparently from French taïaut.

[Navaleye]

Crikey tmmorris, did you get out of bed the wrong side this morning?:confused:

[Pontius Navigator]

Judy Judy

So any suggestions?

[Milt]

I used and preferred

"Bandit/s 12 o'clock high"

Doubt if "Tally - Ho" has been used post WW2. It begs the question by others in company "Where for Christ's sake?"

[kippermate]

It was definately used in WW1.

Capt George, shortly after joining the '20 minuters', is clearly heard to instruct his formation leader that he is in sight of the enemy with the call:

'Tally-bally Ho!'




:ok:

kipper

[Wwyvern]

"Tally Ho" was the call, in the early 1960s, from a fighter to the ground controller to indicate that the target was in sight, and no further guidance was required from the ground.

[ZH875]

609 Sqn used Tally Ho as their motto.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v604/ZH875/609crest.gif

[STANDTO]

for 'Per say', I think you mean 'per se'

And can anyone, for a bonus point, tell me why Tally Ho in the West Mids is so called

:confused:

[Gainesy]

Then there is the Plymouth Ho which hang around dockyards.


We'll be on Fork Handles in a trice...

[Spurlash2]

When firing air to surface missiles from helicopters in the 70's and 80's, the call from the aimer when target sighted was 'Tally ho', followed shortly after by 'Bruiser loose', as the missile was launched. The call 'impact', from the aimer, gave a confirmation to the pilot that the missile was no longer a flying thing!

[SirToppamHat]

As mentioned previously, 'Tally' is the most often heard call these days for visual acquisition of a target aircraft (which may or may not be hostile), whilst 'Visual' is used to indicate the same on a friendly ac.

Judy (or Judy Judy) is a call to GCI/AWACS, and means 'I have contact (visual or radar) with the target ac and am taking responsibility for the remainder of the intercept'.

The reason I post is to throw in the fact that we are no longer supposed to use the codeword 'Texaco' for an AAR ac. It is now supposed to be 'Tanker', though it may take a while to drop out of use completely.

We keep changing things, and I am not always sure it's for the better - a lot of the time it seems to be for change's sake and just causes confusion (above and below ground!).

STH

[Maple 01]

I got lost when they stopped calling it Tansor - and don't let's start on Golf Golf......

[artyhug]

Why "Judy" Pontious?

Well its obvious surely, what other codeword would you use after being asked to "Punch" to signify you had contact with what you expected???

But then it begs the question, why "Punch"??????

:confused:

[Pontius Navigator]

SirToppham,

I know what Judy means, my veiled question was why Judy?

If I asked you about Emil, what would you say?

BTW, I agree about Punch, never heard Judy called for a visual contact.

[Monty77]

It's similar to the faff of stopping a tailchase. 'STOP STOP STOP' to me has more immediacy than the old knock it off or terminate calls. The tone of the voice speaks more volumes than the words as we all know anyway. High pitched urgency always grabs the attention. Ask my wife when I've just crimped one off and there's no roll to spare.

[Impiger]

Sir TH

Nostalgia ain't what it used to be. When I were a lad on the only all weather look down shoot down fighter in Europe Texaco was one of those modern nicknames the youngsters used even though it wasn't approved. The approved term was 'Gravy Boat' you can see why Texaco caught on!

Despite having had the command 'Punch clear to fire' a number of times I'd never made the mental leap to Judy it just goes to show...

Now if we're in to explaining codewords/pro-words how about 'Tumbleweed' ? I know what it means but why?

[SirToppamHat]

Pontious

I understood what you were trying to get to, but I am afraid I don't have the answer.

Punch is no longer used in the UK because the procedure it was part of does not exist in NATO - perhaps we ought to leave that one there ...

Thinking about it, I think you are right about Judy - officially at least (though I don't have the 80-6 to hand). I think I have heard jag and hawk pilots occasionally call Judy, but not recently.

Monty 77 you are spot on. The STOP STOP STOP call is a case in point regarding confusion. I would much prefer to have left the old system in place:

STOP STOP STOP = Emergency Cessation of Air Combat.
Knock-it-Off = Routine Cessation of Air Combat (or all parts of a multi-engagement fight).
Terminate = Local Cessation of a multi-engagement fight.

Instead of which we went with the new 'improved':

Knock-it-Off = Emergency Cessation of Air Combat.
Terminate = Routine Cessation of Air Combat.

It took me quite a while to get used to KIO demanding more attention than previously but that 're-tuning' of the brain is frequently upset by our American cousins who insist on using KIO for routine cessations.

Tumbleweed - total loss of situational awareness - I guess because in close air combat, a pilot's/nav's brain might feel as if it has been spun, like a tumbleweed blown across the desert!

STH

[Pontius Navigator]

As Emil Emil was a German call equivalent to Tally and Judy but obviously a male name, maybe the allies chose a girls name instead. As in all things NATO it has to be internationally pronouncable.

When chosen I wonder if anyone gave a thought that Judy or Judith is a jewish name?

[Irish Steve]

Ask my wife when I've just crimped one off and there's no roll to spare.

One thinks that maybe an update in the pre flight check rules is urgently called for:E

[Maple 01]

Thought 'Judy' meant 'I'm sick of hearing the controller rambling on, so am going to take over the intercept myself, and I've just woken the Nav up'

'Confirm Judy' I understand meant 'if you're so bloody clever, good luck Biggles, you get on with it, let's see you screw up the stern conversion'

[Pontius Navigator]

We almost sent a Frightening to Egypt once. Found his freq, put out a single 'judy' and the controller obligingly shut up.

Fighter then 15 miles southeast and the controller then asked CJ followed by a chicken call.

[ginjockey]

Down here in Australia, Tally Ho is the name of a very popular brand of cigarette papers mainly used to smoke prodigious quantities of marijuana........ then again, we are a bit different down here.

Peace Out.

Gin.

[henry crun]

In my day Contact meant only that the nav had the target on his radar, and Judy meant he could complete the intercept.

[ORAC]

And where did "padlocked" come from?

"Boss, is that you in my 6?" :ouch:

[tu chan go]

All the codewords in use by NATO forces today come from the 80-6, or to use its correct title, AIRNORTH MANUAL 80-6. This is supposed to conatin the SOPs for use by all NATO forces so that you can work with all nations and understand each other. The manual is written and maintained by the Concepts and Doctrine Branch of TLP (Tactical Leadership Programme) in Florennes. Belgium.

The main problem with the manual is that it takes an age to update it (the last update took about 3 years from start to finish) so it is rarely completely accurate vs the in-use terminology. The reason we keep changing what we say to mean different things is that the Yanks keep adding new words and using the old words for different things (manily as new technology comes in and they need more words!). This is not intended to be a yank-bashing comment. It is more a fact of life that they are constantly updating what they use and we, like puppy dogs, always roll over to follow their procedures.

For instance, we used to use Bingo to indicate certain fuel levels in the aircraft during tactical sorties; the Americans used Joker so we eventually went over to their way of thinking. The same applied to Joker, Chicken, Tally, Visual, Blind, No-Joy etc etc etc. The yanks also never used Port/Starboard so we changed to Left/Right but the old hands still revert to type when under pressure. I heard somenoe say just the other day,"Stop, Stop, Stop. All come starboard onto North.........I mean, KIO, KIO all come right onto 360!"

But the ones that really get my goat are: "What's your skulling? This is an over-cranium projector. Is the container open? " All because the yanks will not say BOX or HEAD!!! This IS a yank bashing comment!

[BEagle]

Yes, that stupid Spamism came to light in Incirlik last time I was there.

Apart from the fact that they cannot insult a German by referring to him as a Boxhead anymore, it seems that it was to avoid claims of sexual harrassment by some of their militant astrotarts.

So we told them, in all seriousness :p that we would like them to stop using a certain word which our ladies found offensive. They agreed - until we told them that the word was BUSH.

:E

Why don't they grow up!

[Pontius Navigator]

tu chan cho

I am surprised that a document issued by a subordinate organisation is a NATO-wide document. Its very title suggests in is not applicable in ACLANT or AFCENT even.

The master document will be an ACP and I agree it takes forever to amend as agreement has to be sought from all NATO member countries.

What you probably have in the AFNorth version is experimental prowords as we have in the ACP nnn (UK Version) where Zippo has a different meaning from the NATO version.

I think what we are really discussing here is not the modern meanings of the prowords but how they originated in the first place. While some are UNCLAS others may have classified amplifiers etc.

So for Judy we are certainly looking for a meaning back in the 50s. Any oldies out there who can suggest when it started? Did the RAF use Judy at the same time as the Germans were using Emil Emil.

[cazatou]

To return to the original question.

The Rev. Ebenezer Cobham Brewer in his "Dictionary of Phrase & Fable" (1894 Edition) states "Tally Ho! is the Norman hunting cry "Taillis au" (To the coppice). The Tally-ho was used when the stag was viewed in full career making for the coppice. We now cry "Tally Ho" when the fox breaks cover. The French cry "Taiaut.""

[Glonass]

Google, search for - "Tally Ho" expression - first on the list, 0.16 secs!!!

That sure is a record; haven’t been able to break the .20 sec mark. I must admit I should have included “expression” in my search criteria.
Anyway thank you all for your time and your interesting replies. BTW, I did indeed mean “per se”.

Cheers, :ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

A new thread perhaps? Fastest Google search.

I got 0.15 looking for Emil emil". Didn't bother looking at the result tho <g>.

[Pontius Navigator]

roflol, well done Mike. You made 0.24 and 162!