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ATRIXO
7th May 2005, 20:49
" I think therefore I am." What does this mean?

Solid Rust Twotter
7th May 2005, 20:53
"The shadow of the razor falls under the left earhole of the prophet, but never on a sunday..."


Or words to that effect.

2R
7th May 2005, 20:53
I thought it was " I Drink therefore I am "
:D :D :} :}

Gouabafla
7th May 2005, 20:56
Plato and Descartes were having a philosophical discussion round at Plato's house. Plato, ever the obliging host, said;
'would you like a cup of tea'.
'I think not.' said Descartes.





and then he disappeared.






coat, door, street

Jerricho
7th May 2005, 20:58
Rene Descartes: A French philosopher and mathematician who was called "The father of modern philosophy." Because he wanted to eliminate the uncertainties in philosophy, and make it more like the "certainties" of mathematics he proceeded to discard all preconceived philosophic notions and started from what he conceived to be a rock solid foundation. The only thing Descartes found certain was the fact he was thinking. He further felt that thought was not a thing-in-itself, and had to proceed from somewhere (viz., cause and effect), therefore since he was thinking the thoughts, he existed --by extension--also. Hence, "thought" and "extension" were the very beginnings from which all things proceeded, "Cogito ergo sum" (I think therefore I am). His scrapping of previously accepted philosophies marked the beginning of the Man-centered universe beliefs that currently drive Western thought.

:confused:

tony draper
7th May 2005, 20:59
They usata come round and empty our bin in one of them Destcartes.
:rolleyes:

McAero
7th May 2005, 21:01
I think it means (and this is after a few glasses of wine), that to use the mind and think is the best way to self discovery.

I like "I know I was born, and I know that I'll die. The in-between is mine. I am mine"

Courtesy of Eddie Vedder

Solid Rust Twotter
7th May 2005, 21:01
2R

That was Bruce "Fluffy" Descartes.

Jerricho
7th May 2005, 21:03
Dancing with the green fairy. Now that leads to some interesting thoughts.

2R
7th May 2005, 21:05
Emanual Kant was real pissant who was very rarely stable


Next line please ?

Solid Rust Twotter
7th May 2005, 21:08
Heidegger, Heidegger was a boozy beggar who could think you under the table...

Jerricho
7th May 2005, 21:10
David Hume could out-consume, Wilhelm Freidrich Hegel.

(Haven't heard that song for ages!) :ok:

Caslance
7th May 2005, 21:13
And Wittgenstein was a beery swine
Who was just as schloshed as Schlegel.

Solid Rust Twotter
7th May 2005, 21:14
Not Schopenhauer and Hegel?


...There's nothing Nietzche couldn't teach ya 'bout the raising of the wrist....

2R
7th May 2005, 21:15
And Wittgenstein was a beeryswine who was just as shlossed as
Schlegel

There\'s nothing Nietzsche couldn\'t teach ya bout the raising of the wrist

ATRIXO
7th May 2005, 21:23
...and does no one relate it to the theory of whether there is a God or not?
I thought that this theory was trying to establish this?

Solid Rust Twotter
7th May 2005, 21:25
I think spirits are mentioned a bit later on in the song.


Da dee dee dum..........

2R
7th May 2005, 21:29
Cognito ergo sum has more to do with how we percieve things than any debate about the existence of a higher being George Berkley has that debate covered with more modern language.



Sorates himself was permanently pissed

Jerricho
7th May 2005, 21:30
whether there is a God or not?

When I was younger I thought I was God.

My father would walk in the room, look at me and say "Oh God......what have you done this time?" :E

Solid Rust Twotter
7th May 2005, 21:31
John Stuart Mill of his own free will, on half a pint of shandy was particularly ill....

2R
7th May 2005, 21:34
Plato they say could stick it away,Half a crate of whiskey everyday:D

Loki
7th May 2005, 22:00
I`m pink, therefore I`m spam?

flapsforty
7th May 2005, 22:26
I strongly resent that ....... :*

2R
7th May 2005, 22:35
Aristotle Aristotle was a bugger for the bottle




nex............

chiglet
7th May 2005, 22:38
I think,Therefore I am....
Alive, [relatively] Happy....etc.
I am, Therefore I think.....
I am Alive, [relatively] Happy...etc.
watp,iktch

LordGrumpy
7th May 2005, 22:48
I thought Des Cartes was a map maker.

ou Trek dronkie
7th May 2005, 22:49
2R,

If I may, at this late hour, gently venture a mild spelling correction to your otherwise superb Latin, he said "Cogito ergo sum". "Cognito" comes from the word "to know extremly well" and means "known".

For me. the sublime philosophical point is, if we are all indeed merely a figment of our imaginations, who are the people we bump into when the lights go out ? Are they real ? or figments ?
Or ......... something entirely different ? Maybe another dimension exists out there ?

Getting back to reality, would someone be a star and post the whole of this magnificent ode ? The rest of you are just swanking about your magnificent memories.

oTd

2R
7th May 2005, 22:53
Thanks otd
i neffer wuz any guid at spellink,

Jerricho
7th May 2005, 22:56
Your wish Trekie.........

Immanuel Kant was a real pissant
Who was very rarely stable,
Heidegger, Heidegger was a boozy begger
Who could think you under the table,
David Hume could out-consume,
Wilhelm Freidrich Hegel.
And Wittgenstein was a beery swine
Who was just as schloshed as Schlegel.
There's nothing Nietzche couldn't teach ya
'Bout the raising of the wrist.
Socrates himself was permanently pissed.
John Stuart Mill, of his own free will
On half a pint of shandy was particularly ill.
Plato, they say could stick it away,
Half a crate of whiskey everyday.
Aristotle, Aristotle was a bugger for the bottle,
Hobbes was fond of his dram,
And Rene Descartes was a drunken fart
"I drink, therefore I am."
Yes, Socrates himself is particularly missed,
A lovely little thinker but a bugger when he's pissed.

Davaar
7th May 2005, 23:01
ou: the people you bump into are incognito.

SilsoeSid
7th May 2005, 23:11
Beaten to it, although I thought we were doing it line by line.

However, everything [email protected] http://www.montypythonpages.com

Renes Descartes was a very clever man, as a thinker there was no keener,
but he knew fcuk all about the Cortina!

Alexi Sayle, 'Kak'.

2R
7th May 2005, 23:39
This version as sung at the ' Monty Python Live at The Hollywood Bowl" pronounced Bowel by one of the chaps at the begining of the show,amonst much howls of laughter.Most of the humour lost on the cousins.

Emanual Kant was a real pissant
Who was very rarely stable
Heidegger Heidegger was a boozy begger
Who could think you under the table
David Hume could out-consume
Schopenhauer and Hagel
And Wittgenstein was a beeryswine
Who was just as Schlossed as Schlegel
There's nothing Nietzsche couldn't teach ya
' Bout the raising of the wrist
Socrates,Himself was permanently pissed
John Stuart Mill of his own free will,
On half a pint of shandy was particularly ill
Plato they say could stick it away,
Half a crate of whiskey every day
Aristotle ,Aristotle was a bugger for the bottle
Hobbs was fond of his dram
And Rene Descarte was a drunken fart
I drink therefore I am
As Socrates himself is particularly missed ,
A lovely little thinker But a bugger when he is pissed.

Ian Corrigible
8th May 2005, 01:12
I thought that was Popeye....?

:E

I/C

Onan the Clumsy
8th May 2005, 02:14
Rene Dascartes went to dinner with Bobby Fischer in one of those quiet little Italian restaraunts with the red and white checked tablecloths. The waitresse came over and asked Descartes if he would like some desert. "Oh my god no." he replied, pointing at Fischer "I asked him to pass me the salt and I've been waiting ten minutes now."

emeritus
8th May 2005, 07:28
This discussion is irrelevant really.

Whilst giving the eulogy at his funeral, Mrs Descartes was heard to say that the statement in question only came about because his pen had run out of ink part way through a letter.

emeritus :E :E :E :E

ou Trek dronkie
8th May 2005, 09:56
Thanks a stack Jerry,

Sorry if I went and spoiled the fun.

2R, you is a gent


davaar, what about those people who bump into me ?

:D

oTd

effortless
8th May 2005, 10:05
I think of you therefore you are.

Loki
8th May 2005, 11:08
Ooops, have insulted dear moderator, must therefore make amends.

How about,

I`m zinc , therefore I`m a pram?

McAero
8th May 2005, 11:15
I stink, therefore I harm

Just an other number
8th May 2005, 11:18
I think therefore I am a rhubarb tart.

Pilgrim101
8th May 2005, 11:30
His mother was so concerned about his habit of staying indoors musing and philosophising that on one occasion she threw him out of the house.

Perhaps this made him think for the first time of putting Dehors before Descartes ? :8

acbus1
8th May 2005, 12:02
Perhaps this made him think for the first time of putting Dehors before Descartes ?
Well, I suspect he wasn't stable.

I think, therefore, he did not.





(and, if I may say, bravo, Pilgrim101) :}

Onan the Clumsy
8th May 2005, 12:17
That incident gave rise to his second but much less famous quotation
It rains, therefore I am wet

acbus1
8th May 2005, 12:52
Shouldn't that be pleural?

cyclicmicky
8th May 2005, 13:39
If the good lady tell's me that I am thoughtless, ............does that mean I aren't?
Descartes plugged in but detelly done work baaas!
:E

Jerricho
8th May 2005, 15:45
It rains, therefore I am wet

Ah, but do I know I am wet? I think I am, but am I? Somebody can tell me I am wet, but am I actually wet?

Davaar
8th May 2005, 16:51
Is that a question you really want to ask?

Jerricho
8th May 2005, 16:52
I think it is.

Or did I?

Paterbrat
8th May 2005, 18:47
... and this being the case, am I in existance or only exist in what might not even be?

McAero
8th May 2005, 18:49
somebody's been listening to Ali G too much....

Paterbrat
8th May 2005, 18:55
But then if I think... I am. Phew worried there for a moment.:hmm: :) :ok:

Jerricho
8th May 2005, 18:59
I think I can......I think I can.......

(My head hurts)

Capt.KAOS
8th May 2005, 20:18
or....I think, therefore I've a headache.

Cogito ergo spud.

Grandpa
9th May 2005, 08:15
Now that it seems everybody has understood Descartes stand...............let us point to Blaise Pascal bet about God's existence.

(please note Descartes made logical inferences about himself, while Pascal weighed chances......)

Stockpicker
9th May 2005, 08:26
And Wittgenstein said that "The world is everything that is the case"; also "The world is the totality of facts, not of things".

Studied him at uni and still donnunnerstan! :confused: :confused:

B Fraser
9th May 2005, 12:43
Did the insomniac dyslexic agnostic lie awake at night wondering if there really was a dog


:confused:

tubthumper
9th May 2005, 13:05
What about the first bit: "I doubt, therefore I think"

And what exactly is Occam's Razor? " The easiest solution is invariably the correct one" is how I understand it, but there's got to be more to it than that....









Although it's all academic, really, 'cos all this is a figment af my imagination.

airship
9th May 2005, 14:01
Earlier today, at about 2am this morning in fact, I had a conversation with this chappie on a planet "near the star (or is it system?) which has 2 pairs of stars pointing at it". I was having a last quiet smoke on the balcony before bed after a marathon DVD session watching "Terminal", "I, Robot" and "Alien Vs. Predator" when suddenly my gaze was attracted to this particular star...

For about 5 minutes, all the known laws of the Universe held no meaning (I've used satellite communications with their inevitable time delay - in this case there was no audible delay...).

Our conversation was a bit weird in the sense that there was no real order to it, no desire from either party to want to "discover" some secret which would be an advantage to us in our own worlds. No, it was more like if you met someone from the steppes of Mongolia or something and you were just comparing lives. Here are a few snippets of what life is like on that planet:

They are not many.
They live a long time, several hundred years is the average life-span. (This came about because I mentioned that I'd probably already been through the best years of my life. He explained how he'd already been married, raised families and been divorced several times over. He'd already had several different "careers" but he still had time before he decided on anything long-term.)
They still have dinosaurs, but the dinosaurs were moved so that they all live on big islands, separate from man (he called himself a man - I wanted to know early on if he was a he or a she). Apparently they don't get asteroids or super-volcanoes on their planet.
They don't have pets. In fact the whole concept of "pets" seemed alien to him. I explained how I had a couple of cats and how much they mean't to me. He suggested that perhaps we were really egotistic as a people - wouldn't they be happier living wild?

In case I get to have another chat, are there any questions you might want to ask, being in my position?

Davaar
9th May 2005, 14:13
.............................................
"Came from William of Occam, a monk, who would have been horrified to see how it has been abused by atheists to challenge the relevance of a supreme deity....."
.............................................

Still, he is well-known to aviators even today. I believe there is a navigational beacon at Okham, near Heathrow. Same place as William's.

X-QUORK
9th May 2005, 14:24
Just to confirm airship, you had a chat with an alien this morning at 2am?

ORAC
9th May 2005, 14:25
Was that local, UTC or galactic?

Capt.KAOS
9th May 2005, 15:22
Must be excellent quality space cake you had airship :ok:

Jerricho
9th May 2005, 16:23
are there any questions you might want to ask,

Yeah. Ask him does his planet have evil members of society and is my mother-in-law one of them.

acbus1
9th May 2005, 17:44
......and ask him if his spaceship is missing a FLAP. :uhoh:

ShyTorque
9th May 2005, 20:55
"I think, I think I am, therefore I am, I think"

"OF COURSE YOU ARE, MY BRIGHT LITTLE STAR,
I'VE MILES AND MILES OF FILES, PRETTY FILES OF YOUR FOREFATHERS' FRUIT
AND NOW TO SUIT OUR GREAT COMPUTER,
YOU'RE MAGNETIC INK!"

"I'm more than that, I KNOW I am, at least I think I must be...."

"THERE you go man, keep as cool as you can.
Face piles
of trials
With smiles,
It riles them to believe
that you perceive
the web they weave
And keep on thinking free."

c 1969, Ark Music

Anyone recognise the song, the writer and the group? :8

McAero
9th May 2005, 21:00
In the Beginning by the Moody Blues :ok:

ShyTorque
9th May 2005, 21:28
McAero,

Correct, of course. This thread prompted me to play the old vinyl LP "On the threshold of a dream" which I recently fetched out of the loft...... :ok:

Writer?

Irish Steve
9th May 2005, 21:33
Just to confirm airship, you had a chat with an alien this morning at 2am?

Was it by any chance a small green thing with a lump on the end???????
:E :E :E

Whirlygig
9th May 2005, 21:37
Do I get a brownie point for knowing it was Graeme Edge?

Showing yer age now, ain't yer ShyT? ;)

It was an album my mother played to me when I was a wee girl :O

Cheers

Whirls

McAero
9th May 2005, 21:37
was it john lodge?? ........ too slow

Whirlygig
9th May 2005, 22:00
McAero - a draw? You beat me to Moody Blues in the first place!

Cheers

Whirls

ShyTorque
9th May 2005, 22:03
Showin' me age, Whirly? Nah, me grandfather used to whistle it on 'is way t'ert 'pit of a mornin' ............ :O

It was Graeme Edge, btw.

"When the white eagle of the north is flying overhead,
And the browns, reds and golds of autumn lie in the gutter, dead......

Whirlygig
9th May 2005, 22:12
Your GRANDfather? Why that must make you 17 :p and I would have said you didn't look a day over.....

Anyway.....

Yeah yeah yeah - The Dream.

Is Threshold the only Moody Blues album you got then?

Cheers

Whirls

ShyTorque
9th May 2005, 22:22
OK, OK. So we buried him in a pit, aged 100..... ;)

"Every good boy deserves favour" :E

Whirlygig
9th May 2005, 22:40
Was that a statement, a request or are you just saying that that is the OTHER Moody Blues album wot you got?

Cheers

Whirls

Grandpa
10th May 2005, 19:27
Nietzche wrote somewhere:

"Walking makes thinking easier" (or something close...)
(this remark is not related with troops marching with or without music ....)

Davaar
10th May 2005, 20:00
Exactly, Grandpa; the marching one was Einstein:

"That a man can take pleasure in marching in formation to the strains of a band is enough to make me despise him."

I disagree with Einstein on this. I rather enjoyed "Divisions" in the RN, an experience I suppose he never shared.

More importantly, can it be that Nietzsche and Einstein have together introduced a topic on which you and I can agree? If so, what a happy constellation of the stars.

Pilgrim101
10th May 2005, 20:45
Davaar

I think you'll find that you and I probably subscribe to Martin Heidegger's philosophy when it comes to Grandpa - that since time and events are infinite then we experience the eternal return of the same ! (If anyone can explain that to me there's a drink in it for them !) :E

Mine's a Laphroaig !!

Grandpa
11th May 2005, 08:19
Regarding Davar's remark...............could I say I agree with him and Einstein both...............and there isn't any joke here!

I too enjoyed "marching in formation to the strain of a band", which combines the joy of rythm, corporal exercise, a feeling of strength given by the number of people marching at your pace, and the fascination of music...................

Then, reading Einstein sentence I realised how DANGEROUS this pleasure was, because it makes you forget why you are marching, where you are going...............and your leader's intentions and personnality.

(please note I still have in my ears the noise of Wehrmacht nailed boots on Paris pavement....)

airship
11th May 2005, 12:41
So sorry everyone. It was cloudy here both last night and the night before. So I have not had the opportunity yet for another close encounter.

...the noise of Wehrmacht nailed boots on Paris pavement... Had he been alive at the time, would Descartes have drawn inspiration from, or remained sceptical of Sun Tzu's "Sheathed sword" concept?

...in the practical art of war, the best thing of all is to take the enemy's country whole and intact; to shatter and destroy it is not so good... Without which, the sound of the jackboots would have been drowned out by the rubble? ;)

ORAC
11th May 2005, 13:01
Bl**dy logical empiricists..... :rolleyes:

Davaar
11th May 2005, 14:00
No, Grandpa, let us not cavil here. At moments like this, Grandpa and Pilgrim, turn to the philosopher Bing Crosby: "Ya gotta accentuate the Positive; Eliminate the Negative; Latch on to the Affirmative; Don't mess with Mr In-Between".

Capt.KAOS
11th May 2005, 14:17
"Man's mind is so formed that it is far more susceptible to falsehood than to truth."

Desiderius Erasmus of Rotterdam

Grandpa
11th May 2005, 19:31
(from Lao Tseu..........Hum.........I suppose.)

"Try to avoid what you can't suffer....
Suffer what you can't avoid......
and let put everything else in these to categories."

Blacksheep
12th May 2005, 06:18
"...
It riles them to believe
that you perceive
the web they weave
and keep on thinking free."

That became my mantra back in '69 ShyTorque. Many a wise word is hidden in popular music. I too have the vinyl version for old time's sake, but usually listen to the MP3 version these days...

I went on a trip to airship's planet too, back then. I never go back - the transportation method is so very bad for the brain cells... :ooh:

ShyTorque
12th May 2005, 10:44
The mantra is perhaps getting even more relevent these days, with more government controls being introduced every day and cameras everywhere!

My vinyl copy does have the strange sound at the end but doesn't loop indefinitely - it ends very suddenly with a "pop", which often makes me jump!

Whirlygig
12th May 2005, 22:23
Yer nerves aren't wot they were now, are they love!

Cheers

Whirls

Blacksheep
13th May 2005, 02:54
It were all that acid wot done fer 'is nerves, Love. ;)