View Full Version : What chance of peace in Northern Ireland now?

Flying Lawyer
6th May 2005, 21:58
Nobel Peace Prize winner David Trimble has lost his seat to some candidate from the Iain Paisley Lunatic Party.

tony draper
6th May 2005, 22:30
Ian Paisley will be dead soon, perhaps there will be more hope with the next generation of Politicians, I suspect a lot of people in Northern Ireland think that the peace process has favoured the Republicans much more than the Loyalists

6th May 2005, 22:35

Unfortunatley I had the misfortune of meeting Ian Paisley's son ,some years ago, who really is just his dad reincarnated.

A sad day.

6th May 2005, 23:25
Can't we in the rest of the UK have a referendum on whether or not we want to keep Northern Ireland?

I can't help feeling that a "no" vote would have a most salutory effect on some of the more intransigent "Loyalists".

6th May 2005, 23:50
No Caslance 'we' can't.

As far as 'Loyalists' go, they have forgotten more about loyalty and swearing allegience to The Crown than you could ever know.

If it stops the rot in NI and prevents the DEMOCRATIC MAJORITY from being sold further down the river then I, for one, am all for it.

If it gives some opposition with spine to the bullying, lying, threatning, stalking, murdering bastard drug dealing criminals who call themselves 'Republicans' then I, for one, am all for it.

If it forces certain elements of the various 'PowerPlayers' in NI politics to face up to their promises and oblications to DISARMAMENT instead of poncing around and avoiding 'unholy' words such as VERIFICATION then I, for one, am all for it.

The people of NI are, as a race, more honest and more straight talking than inhabitants of most other towns & cities of the realm, they've stuck with us through thick and thin and if they want to remain part of us then we are more than glad (and lucky) to have them. I'd rather have them than the whinging Welsh, the Jockanese or the swarming masses of 'Breeetish passpot huldas'.



Standard Noise
7th May 2005, 01:38
As the "dead soon" Rev Dr said many years ago, "NEVER! NEVER! NEVER! NEVER!"
Not even Maggie could tame him.
As for the junior Paisley, he's a f**kwit, the guy who'll prolly take over is Peter Robinson. Now he IS a scary man when he gets going. Looks like an accountant.........it's always the quiet ones.
I can't help feeling that if the 'terrorists' friend' Tony Bliar wasn't so spineless, things would be a whole lot better.

TB - "How can we punish Mr Adams and his friends for their latest indiscretion? Oh I know, we'll take away their parliamentary allowances."
Mind you, at least Gordon Brown was pleased with that one!:rolleyes:

7th May 2005, 01:49
That's a fairly inflammatory post, Pontious. There are some rather sweeping generalisations there as well as offensive remarks which will do little to foster intelligent and reasoned debate on the matter. This is the sort of thing that gets a thread closed before discussion even gets started and everyone misses out on the opportunity to either contribute to or simply read the thread.

I rarely post to political threads but enjoy reading them. It is quite a while since we had a real "Northern Ireland" discussion here ... mainly because people just can't help themselves and get the thing closed down within a very short time. Perhaps we could make a real effort to keep this one open for a while.

As emotional an issue as this may be, it can still be discussed in a rational manner.

Standard Noise
7th May 2005, 02:19
BD - which bit of Pontious' post was inflammatory?
He's expressing a view that many of us law abiding Ulstermen hold. If you think different, then get on a plane to Belfast.
I have catholic friends who would agree with his description of the "bullying, lying, threatening, stalking, murdering bastard drug dealing criminals who call themselves Republicans."

What he missed out, however shameful, is that the protestant community has it's own share of "bullying, lying, threatening, stalking, murdering bastard drug dealing criminals," only we call them 'loyalists'.

As a NI protestant from a working class family, how's that for a "sweeping generalisation" ?

7th May 2005, 02:40
which bit of Pontious' post was inflammatory?
I'm going to take that question seriously. I believe the following statements are "inflammatory" ...

... the bullying, lying, threatning, stalking, murdering bastard drug dealing criminals who call themselves 'Republicans'

... The people of NI are, as a race, more honest and more straight talking than inhabitants of most other towns & cities of the realm,

... the whinging Welsh, the Jockanese or the swarming masses of 'Breeetish passpot huldas'.

I appreciate the fact that these are Pontius' personal beliefs but generalisations like these which are expressed in such a biased manner do little to enhance his cause. It is not a question of how many people are in accord with the writer, it is the way the opinions are expressed that is the problem.

As I said, other debates on Northern Ireland have been closed down because of posters' lack of self control and it would be a shame if this one were to go the same way.

7th May 2005, 02:44
Actually Bluey (not having a pop at you or anyone here), my wife is from the province, and finds Caslance's post more inflammatory than Pontious (once again, I highlight this isn't having a go at anyone!!!) ........ but can see where the comment comes from.

I had the pleasure of living and working in N.I. for a couple of months and don't begin to pretend I understand it all. I honestly don't know how many really do. From what I saw, the problems up there stem from more than just simply grouping people into the traditional Loyalist/Republican or Protestant/Catholic groups. The town where Mrs J is from is rife with drugs, and the money generated from that alone seems to be something to fight over, no matter what foot you kick with......even among their own.

Standard Noise
7th May 2005, 04:13
OK, I'll give you the third one, about the Welsh and Jocks, maybe it was a bit inflammatory. The other two statements were fine.
But tell me BD , what type of Republicans planted a bomb on the route of the Belfast Marathon last week?
A race in which 12,500 ordinary decent people were running in aid of charity, and the "bullying, lying, threatening, stalking, murdering bastard drug dealing criminals who call themselves republicans" planted a bomb on the route hoping to kill Hugh Orde (PSNI Chief Constable), who was running the race. Then they waited until 20 mins after the race started before giving a warning. Hang on, that must have been them lovely cuddly, peace loving republicans that planted that bomb. So much for peace, or reasoned debate! That's two things they certainly don't want. But for thr grace of god and swift work by the security forces we could have seen another Omagh.

Can't we have a pprune referendum to see if we want to keep Caslance? I can't help feeling that a "no" vote would have a most salutory effect on that intransigent pruner.:ok:

Jerricho - I doff my duncher to you my man, you married a NI lass and are living to tell the tale. I chickened out and married an English girl. Hey, I might be from Belfast, but I'm not daft. The very thought of a Norn Irish MIL. God forbid!!!:{

7th May 2005, 04:23
The very thought of a Norn Irish MIL. God forbid!!!

Welcome to my world....... ;)

7th May 2005, 04:40
No, SN, they are not "fine" and serve only to lower the level of discussion. It is perfectly possible to write about the bomb that was planted, or any other incident relevant to the issue without trying to represent one side as ...

... ordinary decent people
and the other as ...

"bullying, lying, threatening, stalking, murdering bastard drug dealing criminals

It lends no credence to your point of view especially when both "sides" have been guilty of atrocities. All terrorists are to be despised for their attacks on innocent people and such attacks are to be condemmed no matter how firm the perpetrators' belief that they are within their rights and are fighting for a "just cause."

It should be understood that all who are involved in the conflict must take equal responsibility for its continuance. The fact that it has lasted so long is because parents are still raising their children to believe that "it's all the fault of those lying, murdering, criminal ... etc. etc."

For as long as the Northern Irish people continue to point the finger and lay the blame at each others feet, things will never change. Both sides can go their ways, happily convincing themselves that they are the innocent victims and never accepting their share of the responsibility.

It is always someone else's fault.

Standard Noise
7th May 2005, 04:51
Jerricho - And have you managed to learn enough of the lingo to understand what they're saying about you when they think you're not listening?
Does she talk at you, rather than to you?

BD - I think you've missed a bit here and there.
As I said, Pontious left out the bit about the "lying, threatening etc etc" on the protestant side. I never claimed it was all one sided, far from it. And neither do I need to be lectured as to how how both sides were guilty of the most heinous crimes against their fellow citizens. I grew up in NI in the 70's and 80's, I know what was going on in my country.

As for my remark about "ordinary decent" people, exactly how else would you like me to describe 12,500 people who ran 26 miles and 385 yards for charity last monday?

7th May 2005, 05:10
SN - Oh god yes. Have you been following me around? My favorite one was when I was invited out to the spud field to help "buck the spuds". My reply was "Well, only if you come to work with me one day and help me stop airyplanes smacking into each other". They never asked me again.

(You're not from Banbridge now, are ya? ;) )

7th May 2005, 06:34
As for my remark about "ordinary decent" people, exactly how else would you like me to describe 12,500 people who ran 26 miles and 385 yards for charity last monday?
Since neither you or anyone else can possibly know how many of them might shoplift, abuse children, steal pencils from work, take drugs, hit their partners, buy goods "off the back of a truck," or even have criminal convictions in their past, it might be best to stay away from the "ordinary, decent people" thing. Certainly there would have been "ordinary" people running but the law of averages would indicate that at least some of them would be miscreants and I don't think the mere fact of running in a marathon is going to make them decent. I know one guy who was sent down for eight years for drug offences and armed robbery. He now regularly runs in charity events but the last words I'd use to describe him would be "ordinary" or "decent."

Therefore, I think it was an inappropriate expression, deliberately used to increase the contrast between the mental image of an "evil bomber" and an "innocent victim."

What sort of person do I think would plant a bomb on a marathon route? A terrorist who is intent on doing the maximum possible damage to the targetted person/s and causing the greatest possible consequences in human suffering.

And I'd like to point out that my expression of an opinion is just that ... it's no more "lecturing" than anyone else's opinions. If it appears to be that I'm lecturing anyone then that's simply a characteristic of the way I write and it certainly isn't intentional.

Scenic Route
7th May 2005, 09:17
There have been atrocities on all sides, loyalist, nationalist, British army and PSNI/RUC. When, on an individual level, those who have been hurt and have lost loved ones can forgive those who have blown up/shot/intimidated/wounded their kids, spouses and other family members, and when those who bring the weaponry and destruction into this wee place and use it to murder and maim stop these ‘activities’; then Ulster shall have peace no matter which :mad: git, sorry politician is in power.

Caslance in the meantime Ulster has played a pivotal role in training her majesties finest over the last decades and quite frankly why should those in Ulster who have contributed to the NI (that’s national Insurance…btw) suddenly find that the UK has ousted them? With reference to my first paragraph, I am trying very hard to suppress the urge to choke the living sh1t out of you :ooh: , which is prolly a good indicator why NI has quite a high heart attack rate. :uhoh:

Perhaps if the country hadn't been split back then, that is to say if it were all considered one state of 32 counties either still under british rule or under irish rule, the mistakes of the past wouldn't be haunting us now.

Pehaps those who didn't see the title of this thread clearly could start their own with reference to how to get rid of ulster as that seems to be their main point.

May I just add though that we have got a fantastic industry of medical electronics and a high rate of IP for medical devices in addition to half decent rugby team; perhaps those people resident in NI could be evacuated (not an inch?!)before the process of getting rid of ulster commences? :suspect:

7th May 2005, 09:50
A lot of people on the mainland UK would indeed like to get rid of NI. As would a lot iof people in the South, just carve it up and let it float out to sea. Many Englishman see themsleves as having more in common with people from down south then their "loyalist" kin in the North. and can you blame them? When they turn on their television and they see these morons marching around in bowler hats and Orange sashes flying the union flag? It's embarassing. When they see grown men and women roaring abuse at little girls trying to go to school?

Irish Catholics from the south also contributed hugely to British Armed forces down through the years, the one time when protestants and catholics were truly brotjhers was when they were being butchered together in the Somme under British direction. Even in WWII when the South was an independant country, there was still 10's of thousands of volunteers who joined the British army.

Even today you have the Irish Guards with many soldiers from Southern Ireland.

We could go back further and mention all the Irishmen who fought and died for the crown in Wellingtons armies etc.

Scenic Route
7th May 2005, 10:04

"contributed hugely to Brutish Armed forced"

very true and very brutish:ok:

7th May 2005, 10:12
Ooops! Ammended as advised my good man!

7th May 2005, 10:41
Unfortunately, growing up in the West of Scotland has exposed me greatly to the history/politics and downright sectarianism on both sides. If it's sheer hatred you want to witness from loyalist/republican supporters, you only have to go to a Celtic - Rangers football match and see/hear what impact these 2 sides made on people. It's disgusting. That aside, talks of a devolved NI are a non-starter. Neither side would agree power-share.

I met a woman who was originally from NI. When I mentioned that I had a few Irish friends she nearly took my head off.........." I am not Irish! I am from Ulster. Don't try and take away my British history!!!" errr I know that doll, but I'm British and Scottish. I don't remember there being a country called Ulster.

I can honestly say I'm looking forward to moving out of this area and down to England to get away from all this bollox.

rant over

7th May 2005, 10:53
You beat me to the punch OW22.
What you say is true.

A large proportion of sensible folk in the UK want shot of NI.

But equally there is no great desire in the Republic of Ireland to have them either.

What are we arguing over?

However, as an independant state it just couldn't survive, its too small, too underdeveloped, and too divided.

I think TB has enough integrity to realise just kicking them out is not acceptable. The result would probably be a rapid collapse into the kind of chaos we saw in the 60s/70s. I doubt he'd want that to besmirch his reputation.

The Irish government would be equally reluctant to march in and lay down the law to hundreds of thousands of angry abandoned loyalists.

As regards the election results, I wouldn't be too depressed. I truly believe we are very near an endgame in this mess. There appears to be a polarisation of the electorate because middle-ground politicians like Trimble are being abandoned by voters (incidentally, the phenomenon is more notable on the Loyalist side - the SDLP leader Mark Durkan retained his seat), but perhaps this is just a creeping realisation that both sides want strong and loud voices and negotiators in the final divvying up.

Incidentally, since Sinn Fein made further electoral gains in this election (contrary to the forecasts of certain ROI politicians), and since they are a Republican party, to label all Republicans as drug dealing murderers is just ignorant. The political power base comes from the ordinary populace. Same goes for the Loyalist side.

Scenic Route
7th May 2005, 10:56

please don't call me a man, thank you.:)

McAero, its a province not a country, therefore it can be called ulster (even it is missing 3 of the constiuent parts........:ooh: )


7th May 2005, 11:02
SR, apologies my good woman????

And Ulster should be missing more then three counties.....Derry etc

7th May 2005, 11:03
Scenic route, I am very aware that it is a province. My point was to highlight(tongue in cheek) the fact that she would not associate herself with the word Irish, and was defiant that she was British alone.

7th May 2005, 11:05
McAero, she sounds like a right ar**hole

Scenic Route
7th May 2005, 11:11

Eh:oh: ? last time I looked Derry was still there, dag namit?????

( and I'm not sure about the 'good' but thanks for the correction)

Mcaero, I trust you got rid of her.:\ She wants to be British, fine, but there is an undeniable mix of cultures and nationalities in the six counties and it should be celebrated not segregated.


7th May 2005, 11:22
My NI experience is from the late sixties. It wasn't the Taigs that scared me. I remember barricades at the end of catholic areas manned by prods. They weren't throwing flowers into the local population.

7th May 2005, 11:54
She was an older woman in her late 50's!! Didn't surprise me though.

I was over in NI for Christmas and I asked my mate what the big fortress thing was as we drove past, half expecting it to be the army base. Nope, wrong! It was in fact the local police station :uhoh:

7th May 2005, 12:53
I am a prod married to a NI catholic who went to a convent school in Paisleys constituancy of Ballymena. The catholic family liked Paisley as an MP because if you had a problem, he would help you WHATEVER YOUR RELIGION!!
He and his henchmen are bigoted and probably slightly mad, but ask yourselves why they are the main party in N Ireland now?? Think hard!!

Easy, the MAJORITY of people gave Bliar a chance a few years ago. They now see him giving everything away to the terrorists and they have had enough. No one has forced them to vote DUP, Dr Paisley is saying what they want to hear. He used to have the largest majority in westminster. Until TrustmeTony becomes a real man, things can only get worse.......

7th May 2005, 13:08
What chance of peace in Northern Ireland now?

Not much. What a disaster that the unacceptable face of Unionism has wiped the UUP off the political map.

Trimble is a great loss to the peace process, he has shown great courage, especially in having the insight to back down from his previously hard-line position. Reading some of the incendiary posts on this thread from usually measured and sensible people, it's an insight that many have yet to acquire. :rolleyes:

7th May 2005, 13:32
incendiary posts on this thread

That's the last thing I want to do

7th May 2005, 13:45

Which terrorists do you mean? Republican or Unionist?

The fundamental objective for which the Republicans strived for years was, as the name suggests, for the remaining six counties in the North of Ireland to be brought into the Republic with the rest of the Irish counties. ie One united Ireland.
How has "Bliar given everything away"? He hasn't agreed to that.
Hasn't he just tried to build on the progress made by previous British governments of both parties, John Major especially, towards achieving a negotiated compromise?

The Republican leadership, against the wishes of the hardliners who stand by the original objective, no longer adopts a 'No compromise - United Ireland' stance.
What compromise has the hardline unionist side made?
(I'm not trying to make a point - I genuinely don't know the answer.) Ask yourselves why (the Paisley DUP) is the main party in N Ireland now?? Think hard!! Because sufficient unionist voters don't want to compromise and like Paisley's 'no compromise' stance?
(Trimble is a relatively moderate unionist - look what's happened to his party, and recently to him.)
Because there are sufficient unionists who have always opposed the compromise achieved in the Good Friday Agreement (for which the leader of the then biggest Unionist Party got a Nobel Peace Prize) and prefer to support the Paisley party which has always opposed it, and promised voters it will do all it can to wreck it? (No-one can accuse them of failing to deliver on their promises to date.)

"Paisley is saying what they want to hear."
He was also saying what they want to hear when he called Roman Catholics 'Papists' and 'Romanists', and referred to the Pope as the 'whore of Rome' and the 'Anti-Christ'.

7th May 2005, 14:51
Paisley is also a Jew Hater. When a camera crew were filming him in Africa visiting one of his churches, one of the crew was Jewish. He referred to him as "Auschwitz" when he found out.

A charming man who obviously has time for all religions...:rolleyes:

What he says about Catholics just marls him out as an insane bigot. A vile man.

Just have a look at the insane ramblings on his website. I mean he should be certified...Click here (http://www.ianpaisley.org/)

Standard Noise
7th May 2005, 15:02
Jerricho - were they Comber spuds or Kerr's Pinks?;)

No, no, no, no Belfast (eastern sector) and a bit of Bessbrook. We's from apple country, Arrrrmagh Bramleys. Stickinoutsotis.

7th May 2005, 15:16
Paisley is just a loud mouth ****, but just about every country seems to have their own version (Rev Fred Nile anyone from Australia ;) )

It wasn't the Taigs that scared me

Please remove that word

7th May 2005, 17:09
I served there for six years in the RAF and my civilian friends were multi religion. The majority of people are frightened of terrorists from both sides. Heliport, you ask which terrorists? The IRA, pure and simple. I am not one side or the other, in fact the loyalist terrorists have worse hate than the republicans. TrustmeTony has had NOTHING from the IRA after many promises. If he could get away with it, I believe he would just give six counties away. Thank god with a reduced majority, he may need the DUP votes in westminster!! The IRA (aka SF) stall, change tact and bluster their way through talks. Even the independants from abroad are now so frustrated with them that they agree they should be excluded.
You misunderstand my post. Yes, the bigots have always voted for Paisley the mouth, but I refer to the moderates who once supported Trimble. I speak regularly to very normal people over there and they have had enough of Bliar. They sadly (and say sadly) see the only way forward as the DUP way

7th May 2005, 18:01

tom de luxe
7th May 2005, 19:27
The people of NI are, as a race, more honest and more straight talking than inhabitants of most other towns & cities of the realm, they've stuck with us through thick and thin and if they want to remain part of us then we are more than glad (and lucky) to have them. I'd rather have them than the whinging Welsh, the Jockanese or the swarming masses of 'Breeetish passpot huldas'. Wow, a superior race. It's only been a few months since my country celebated liberation from the occupant who believed that their race was just that - the master race.:yuk:

Reading this thread, maybe the fact that a large chunk of NI's population (on either side) consider their "race" superiour is at the heart of the problem?

7th May 2005, 20:34
Never Mind Peace in Northern Ireland if two groups of people of almost identical ethnic and alleged Christian values cannot get along what hope is there for the rest of the world ?

8th May 2005, 00:06
Firstly to all the pruners who cried "Foul!" at my post, I concede there are elements within the Loyalist movement just as unsavoury as the ones I referred to, however since the declaration of the ceasefire, only one side has constantly flouted, threatened, intimidated, planned to bomb and murdered.

Secondly it fills me with despair when the 'Republican' Pruners amongst us constanly fail to differentiate between the idealists of Dublin in Spring 1916 and the lying, cheating, murdering, cowardly, stalking, robbing,threatening drug dealing scum that hide under the banner of the IRA today. Poor Michael Collins must be spinning in his grave when Enniskillen, Omagh, The McCartney Affair and widespread drug dealing and crime are committed in the name of a United Ireland.

Thirdly Trimbles demise may be NI's longterm gain for the following reasons:
Blairs' recent bloody nose, as stated by an earlier poster may force him to seek alliances with the most unlikely of suitors including Unionists which will mean he will have to shy away from his usual stance of IRA appeasement.

Crimes such as The Northern Bank raid and the McCartney Affair have deprived Sinn Fein of traditional moral support and IRA of substantial funds from a grass roots US supporters & the US Administrations' increasingly hardline Anti-IRA stance, lead by a President who has loves to wage war on terrorism.

Sinn fein IRA are being driven t'wards the negotiating table where Decommissioning of Arms and Verification of D of A, will be pre-conditions for any talks, talks with a man London fear and Sinn Fein IRA loathe, a man whose movement are hell-bent on the destruction of the IRA if they refuse to give up their arms and call for 'armed sruggle. "Ah!" I hear the cry, Sinn Fein IRA will slip back to the bullet and bomb diplomacy of the past, but a new Political force is emerging on the NI political scene with more to lose than any politician or any criminal organisaton and that is the good people of NI. They and their children have had a few years of relative peace, tranquility and reconsilliation. They've enjoyed it, they want it to last and for the sake of their futures and that of the generations to come, they will not give that up without a fight. Recent events have shown that over one murder sections of a local community can take on the thugs and it has given NI as a whole hope, spirit, guts and more importantly the belief that they can take on the Sectarian Underworld.

The good people of NI have chosen a man who they believe is the only man with enough spine and determination to carry the fight to men of violence. They know more about the dynamics of NI politics and the situation on the ground there than even the most opinionated Pruner could ever hope to. Lets just trust them to get on with it but be ready to offer any help and support called for if and when it's needed.

tom de luxe
Sorry, old man. I didn't realise somewhere in Europe was liberated within the last couple of months. I pride myself in keeping up with global current affairs but I admit, I missed that one. And for your information I didnt say that NI'ers were a master race but as a 'nation within a nation' they are some of Best of these Isles.


8th May 2005, 00:33
Secondly it fills me with despair when the 'Republican' Pruners amongst us constanly fail to differentiate between the idealists of Dublin in Spring 1916 and the lying, cheating, murdering, cowardly, stalking, robbing,threatening drug dealing scum that hide under the banner of the IRA today.

Pontius, you wannabe be careful that you aren't summed up as just another apologist for Loyalist extremism. Are you blind in one eye?

Independent Monitoring Commission (IMC) second report on paramilitary activity published
Northern Ireland Office, 4 November 2004

Secretary of State, Paul Murphy has today laid before Parliament the second report by the Independent Monitoring Commission (IMC) into paramilitary activity.

In a Written Statement, Paul Murphy said: “On 28 October 2004 I received a report from the Independent Monitoring Commission. This report was made under Articles 4 and 7 of the international agreement that established the Commission. The report makes an assessment of paramilitary activity in Northern Ireland during the six month period March 2004 to September 2004.

“I welcome this report. I have considered its content and I am today bringing it before Parliament. I have placed copies in the Library of the House.

“IMC’s report concludes that some paramilitary groups have scaled back the intensity of their activity but none have materially wound down their capacity to commit violent or other crime.

“Paramilitary violence in the form of murder, shootings and assaults has considerably reduced in the past six months but remains at a disturbingly high level. The proportionate reduction is greater on the part of republican groups. Most violence is attributable to loyalist groups. The range of paramilitary activity remains wide. Paramilitary groups from both sides remain deeply engaged in serious organised crime.

8th May 2005, 00:50
So much Anger
So little Love

I sense much Fear in this one
Fear leads to Anger
Anger leads to Hate
Hate leads to Violence

Those who fear God
Know only fear
And will never find Peace
People who Love God
And will find Peace

Open up your hearts and minds
to the possibilty of a peaceful future
Forgive the past
Love tommorrow
Do not be crippled by the sins of the fathers
Forgive the past

8th May 2005, 00:53
Good catch, maxalt.

Unionists want all republican paramilitary activity to cease and for all republican-held weapons to be handed in. They are rather more sanguine about loyalist paramilitary activity, and as far as I am aware, not one loyalist weapon has been dismantled, destroyed or handed in.

8th May 2005, 01:39
'Republican' Pruners amongst us
You should not accuse people of being partisan in this issue simply because they point out how biased your own posts are.

From what I have read here, most Pruners are not interested in "taking sides" at all and you have no right to label them "Republicans" or anything else simply because their view opposes yours or because they point out that perhaps the loyalists are not quite the shining angels you would have people believe.

The We're all good/decent people and you're all murdering bastards belief is common to both sides in any conflict. Usually it is true of neither.

8th May 2005, 08:18
If you are describing a lot of those Loyalist people Pontious as being among the best in the British isles then the UK really is in trouble!

These are the people who for years thought it perfectly acceptable to herd catholics into ghettos, deprive them of proper education and housing and wouldn't employ them. Then when they had the nerve to protest against these actions and marched for their civil rights they were attacked at every turn including attacks by the police force at the time.

Nobody here as far as I'm aware, supports the IRA and the their evil ways. But the truth is clear, Loyalists/Unionists played a huge role in the creation of the modern day IRA. It all could have been so different.

8th May 2005, 08:57
It could all have been so different

Indeed it could. The peoples of Ireland and West and North Britain have been linked by blood, culture and trade for millennia. The British handling of the aftermath of the Easter rebellion is possibly the greatest mistake made in the history of our islands. The only thing which can be said in mitigation is that we were at war at the time and it was, I suppose, viewed as treachery.

8th May 2005, 09:14
That's the point allright Wingswinger, the people are the same. Ireland is made up of celtic blood, Viking blood, Norman blood via England and so many people of English descent going back hundreds of years. England is the same.

All this fighting and hatred has all been one huge attempt to create differences. "They're different from us, they dont have our work ethic" or "They don't share our celtic passion".....it's all BS of the highest order.

The people are so aloke it;s uncanny really. Elizabeth 1st had to issue orders for gods sake to the English living in Ireland to stop integrating as well as they did! They started to speak Irish and adapt Irish clothes and customs etc!

Why oh why did they have to start the Ulster plantation???

8th May 2005, 09:53
I'm just angry that you reffered to us as "Jockanese" pontious. You managed to insult everyone except yourself in that first post, with a "we're better than them because I said so" argument.

8th May 2005, 10:01
I don't declare my sympathies. I have lived too long and seen too much to take sides. My neighbour, god rest her, had to leave Belfast because she was tarred and feathered by both sides because she lived in a cross street. I saw the rank injustice of the Protestant Ascendancy and I have walked away from an IRA bombing in London.

It wasn't the Taigs that scared me

Please remove that word

Probably a corruption of Tadgh meaning poet. I like the term. Prod or Proddy doesn't seem to worry you.

I notice that the term "IRA Sinn Fein" is ok but no one says "UDF Unionist"

You cannot put the arseholes back in their boxes. Both sides have moved on from politics to commerce. They have been selling drugs and standing on the doors of the pubs collecting for "The Cause" for so long, looking important and powerful, that they will never give it up. If I recall correctly, after Irish independence, the Eire government had to give ex RA fighters land to give them summat to do. What will we manage to do to take the Loyalist and Nationalist gangsters off the streets?

This isn't simply an Irish problem anymore. It is the same problem as we have in almost any country you can name that has come out of a period of conflict or repression. Look at Russia and the former eastern bloc. They are toilets riddled with organised crime and corruption. Look at Italy. After the war the US put the criminals that they had deported during the thirties in positions of power then wondered at the expansion of the Mafia. The place still hasn't recovered properly sixty years later. Don't even get me started on the last bastions of Democracy in south America. Lord only knows what will happen in Iraq and Afghanistan though I think that we know the answer.

Morgan James
8th May 2005, 12:10
Probably a corruption of Tadgh meaning poet. I like the term. Prod or Proddy doesn't seem to worry you.
Prod or Proddy are slang terms in that they are shortened versions of the word Protestant.

Taig is as offensive a word to an Irish catholic as n**ger is to a black person. It probably should be withdrawn.

8th May 2005, 13:01
Heard on the news that a kids football team were injured by flying glass when their minibus was stoned. Sad inditement on society in Northern Ireland isn't it!!

Scenic Route
8th May 2005, 13:04
sad indeed, but NI society comprises of more than the violent sods who get the media attention. Whilst there is a great deal of evil in the province, there is a great deal of good.

Stop the bloody slaughter. Hopefully, one day.......

8th May 2005, 15:29
Prod or Proddy doesn't seem to worry you.

Taig (also "Teague") is a slang term used by some Protestants in Scotland and Northern Ireland to refer to Roman Catholics. It is derived from the Irish name Tadhg, considered to be "the man on the street" (i.e. the average Irish person you would meet anywhere), and it is generally considered to be highly offensive.

Source - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taig

Derogatory slang term for Catholic; derived from the Irish form of "Timothy" (pronounced "Tige," as in tiger).

Source - www.cmp.ucr.edu/photography/hidden/glossary.html

Hence my request again - Remove it

Flying Lawyer
8th May 2005, 16:13
Pontious describes the (so-called) ‘Reverend’ Ian Paisley as a man with “spine and determination.” and says he's “a man London fear.”
I agree he has spine and determination and, if the UK government has fears about his new role, they are well-founded.

But what sort of man have "the good people of NI” chosen to lead them?

Does Paisley want to see an end to the terrible division between Protestants and Catholics which has caused so much trouble, and so many deaths, in Northern Ireland? Or does he ruthlessly link Unionism and Protestantism, stirring up fear and fuelling long-established prejudices for his own ends?
Paisley’s rantings against Catholics are notorious. His own website (linked above) gives a useful insight. The hate-filled tone came as no surprise, and he's very shrewd - he encourages his followers not to under-estimate the importance of making 'passing comments' about Catholicism in ordinary conversation. Just what NI needs!

What’s more worrying is his undoubted skill at using religious prejudice and hatred to win votes. He appeals to the lowest common denominator amongst the voters he wishes to attract, and they lap it up. He consistently, and very effectively, links Unionism and Protestantism.

Paisley speaking last 12 July after his DUP did well in the elections in Northern Ireland -

On the prohibition on Orange marches through predominantly Catholic areas:
“The only reason that the Orangemen of Portadown cannot be permitted to march back from their church to their homes is the utter cowardice of the Blair administration. ….. Rome dictates to Protestants what church they should march to.
“Parades to Protestant churches are banned, services stopped, and civil and religious liberty is refused to the Protestant people. No such action prevails against Romanists. The aim is to crush the Protestant faith. Yes, Mr. Trimble has been very good for the IRA.”

On more moderate Unionist leaders and the peace process:
”Traditional unionists have been revived, and have partaken of a new zeal to defeat our ancient enemies, and crush the vipers who poisoned our society.
Traditional unionist leaders have been exposed as self-appointed traitors, experts in deception, fraud and betrayal.”
The spirit of Trimbleism must be buried in a tomb from which there is no resurrection. (He went on to assert that Trimble defended terrorists.)
Let us renew our faith in the God of our fathers, and let us face our foes with a courage which will die rather than surrender.”
“A new unionism – a revived and rejuvenated Unionist and Protestant community.”

Without ever directly sanctioning sectarian violence (he's a lot of things, but not stupid), Paisley has contributed as much if not more than any other individual to the atmosphere in which it flourished.

Pontious describes Paisley as “a man whose movement are hell-bent on the destruction of the IRA if they refuse to give up their arms and call for 'armed sruggle.”
Paisley is hell-bent on destroying anyone or anything which stands in his way – and his rabble-rousing approach sways enough people to help him do it.
From the same speech:
"I call on (David Trimble) and what remains of his party to pull with us instead of standing in the way, otherwise the people of Ulster will finish the job and sweep him and his party off the political map once and for all.”

Associated Press report, March 2005
”The Orange Order …… broke its 100-year ties to the Ulster Unionist Party following growing tensions between the moderate leadership of the UUP who have supported Northern Ireland's decade-old peace process, and the conservative leaders of the Orange Order, who have largely rejected it.
Ian Paisley's Democratic Unionist party’s hard-line views — and, in particular, his hostility to the 1998 peace accord for Northern Ireland — resonate with many rank-and-file Orangemen. The Ulster Unionists have lost substantial support because of their backing for the Good Friday accord.
The Orange Order, an anti-Catholic association formed in 1795 to defend Protestant interests in north-east Ireland, mounts major parades each summer that arouse Catholic opposition and sometimes trigger riots.
Though an Orangeman himself who previously championed the organization's right to parade near Catholic districts, Mr. Trimble has been unwelcome at Orange events since 1999, when he narrowly won party approval to form a power-sharing administration in Northern Ireland that included Sinn Fein.”

May 2005: We know what’s happened.

Pontious suggests trusting the people of NI “to get on with it but be ready to offer any help and support called for if and when it's needed.”
The Unionists set great store at being part of the UK. Is that what we would do if there was similar trouble in another part of the UK. They can’t have it both ways.
Also, some might think unemotional involvement from outside the province, uninfluenced by prejudice and religious hatred, is preferable to offering help and support to one side - and even more so when that side is led by Paisley.

Paisley is a skilful rabble-rousing orator able to generate support by stirring up fears and fuelling prejudices against a minority group. So was Hitler.


Pontious says he prides himself "in keeping up with global current affairs."
Yes, he struck me as one of life's well-informed thinkers when he referred to "the whinging Welsh, the Jockanese or the swarming masses of 'Breeetish passpot huldas'."


8th May 2005, 18:42
A telling summation there with some thoughtful points well made FL.

I've often held back that my great grandfather was the Dean of Derry because of reactions it used to get, and I naiively simply thinking he was a church minister. Come to think of it I never really did get to know how he felt about things because all I remember about him was him showing me how to use some of his carpentary tools which seemed harmless enough to me and frankly I am glad that's all I remember, I would be sad to even think he might have felt the same way as Paisley, who I have never regarded as any sort of churchman.

8th May 2005, 20:45
PB, I'm sure he was a decent man and nothing like Paisley.

Its only Paisley and a tiny amount of Clergymen in the North who are out and out bigots.

8th May 2005, 22:34
I cringed on friday afternoon when I heard that Paisley person singing a hymn when his party won the seat back. I have no axe to grind either one way or the other re Protestant/Catholic but Paisley is a deeply scary and maybe evil person.

Take a look at his website - Were he to replace Catholic with Jew, he would have the likes of Simon Weisental looking for him. He sure doesnt seem to have the qualities of tolerence and understanding I regard as worthy of being called British.

I'll get me coat......

9th May 2005, 00:09
The LVF's 1998 'gesture' of handing in a couple of rusty rifles for 'decommissioning' is widely recognised as having been a ploy to secure the release of its members from prison under the terms of the Good Friday agreement.

The LVF were into bombings, kidnappings, and close-quarter shooting attacks, it financed its activities with drug money and other criminal activities (does this sound familiar Pontius?).

LVF attacks have been particularly vicious: the group has murdered numerous Catholic civilians with no political or paramilitary affiliations, including an 18-year-old Catholic girl in July 1997 because she had a Protestant boyfriend. They also had been credited with the murder of lawyer Rosemary Nelson in March 1999.

In October 2001, the British Government ruled that the LVF had broken the cease-fire it declared in 1998 after linking the group to the murder of journalist Martin O'Hagan.
So much for their 'decommissioning'.

The Republicans at present, have no intention whatsoever of handing in their arms as it is seen as surrender. Actually thats incorrect. The IRA offerred to completely decommission its weapons in January in the presence of the decommissioning body and nominated Clerical witnesses, but the DUP (Paisley) wanted the whole thing filmed and broadcast live by the media. That was deemed to be unacceptable.

Scenic Route
9th May 2005, 04:36
Anyone can go through the history books and pick out incidents to 'highlight' their arguement of either 'the LVF is the problem' (good morning Idunno!) or 'The IRA is problem'.

This is pathetic. Surely by now it can be undestood that terrorists of any discription are not 'gradeable' on a level of their atrocities but by the very fact that they are terrorists they should be condemed. What makes the the IRA/PIRA/RIRA/INLA (take your pick) murdering one person any less or more evil than that of the LVF/RHC/UVF/UFF (take your pick), Nothing, they are all as evil and twisted as each other.

Furthermore there are plenty of people within NI who do not adhere to such terrorist policies, though granted there are those that do and in times of extreme political reform there is a high preportion of the population who will support the more extremist views for reason ranging from fear, to dissillusionment and a whole lot more.

In addition can someone please remove that offensive word that Jerricho has highlighted needs removed (mods?). Whatever the history of the derrogetory (sp, have you seen how early it is) terms used to describe Catholics and Protestants, I'm sure we can all equip ourselves with a finer command of the English (or Irish) language than that. At the end of the day religion is man made,whilst faith is god given.


Curious Pax
9th May 2005, 09:45
Question for Jayteeto - if the IRA have given nothing away, why is todays Northern Ireland such a different place to say 15-20 years ago? Sure they haven't got rid of all their arms, but largely not using them must be viewed as progress. Ironically they did seem to be on the verge of finally doing the deed last year, but then Paisley stood up and starting shouting about surrender and demanding humiliation of the IRA. As FL says he is many things but not stupid - why do you think he intervened like that? The IRA reaction could have been predicted by a 2 year old!

What has happened since 1995 has been a painfully slow process, but with the engrained differences/prejudices it was never going to be anything else. The IRA has been increasingly marginalised as the period of peace has gone on. I know that the other violence is still around, and may even have got a bit worse, but is that so different to Moss Side in Manchester, and many other similar places? The thugs with guns that were on both sides at the height of the Troubles aren't just going to disappear.

It was interesting to observe the panic in Sinn Fein over the McCartney killing - that was a sign that they know that going back to 'political' violence would kill their cause.

The death of a long time intransigent leader elsewhere in the world seems to have moved things along there - hopefully the same will happen in Northern Ireland.

Footnote: in case there is any doubt, don't confuse my distinction between 'political' and 'regular' violence/terrorism as a sign that either are anything other than totally abhorrent.

Scenic Route
9th May 2005, 10:40
Curious pax,

"Sure they haven't got rid of all their arms, but largely not using them must be viewed as progress"

hello? largely not using them??, they used them for the northern bank robbery (large enough scale!),taking hostages and threatening lives is not progress. They also continue to use them for punishment beatings. Any incident of terrorism or THREAT of terrorism needs to de addressed. Boam hoaxes as opposed to actual explosive devices being planted is as much a hinderance to progress as the loss of life.

9th May 2005, 11:03
From a British (English) perspective, I have to ask just how "reasonable" the Northern Irish protestant community is when it dumps the UUP almost wholesale, and turns towards a relgious biggot like Paisley, and his henchmen.

It draws parallels with Israel, where the majority voted for Sharon, an extremist who has absolutely no intention of making peace with the downtrodden half of the community.

Democracy cannot really exist in a tribal nation, or province, in the case of Northern Ireland, where a candidate's religion determines how you vote, not their policies on important matters, such as health, education, jobs and the economy. Until the British, and possibly the Irish, bona-fide political parties get themselves engaged in realpolitik in Northern Ireland, and break the sectarian, biggoted mould on both sides there will be no real settlement of the problem.

Curious Pax
9th May 2005, 11:11
Yes Scenic - I deplore the violence that still goes on, but that needs to be considered in the light of 2 facts: there is a level of violence in all British cities these days, unacceptable as that is; and whilst I don't underestimate the impact of hoaxes and 'normal' violent crimes, surely you can't be saying that there has been no progress from the almost daily explosions in Northern Ireland and the mainland 20-30 years ago, to the state of things today?

It is in itself a sign of progress that the sort of things going on today provoke such a reaction - in the 70s they would barely have merited a raised eyebrow!

Scenic Route
9th May 2005, 12:00
Wouldn't classify it as progress, just a different pile of poop.:{

9th May 2005, 12:18
I don't, for one moment, condone bigotry of ANY kind and it is unfortunate that a man like Rev. I.P is elected by the Union masses to represent them but clearly this shows the level of feeling of betrayal and disillushionment these people feel with the Good Friday accord, Downing St. appeasement and now a new Pope who dismisses 'other Christian (non-Catholic)' beliefs as almost irrelevant. And you wonder why the Unionist/Loyalist lobby feel let down and threatened? You wonder why they turn to a barbarian like Paisley?

Like I said earlier, I wasn't and will not condone bigotry, hatred or violence of any kind. I was merely suggesting that while the democratic MAJORITY of NI will no longer roll over and keep taking these blatantly one sided, appeasing policies, they have turned to a man who they know won't take them either. I believed in Trimble but his position became untenable when he was bullied, co-erced, threatened, whatever you want to call it into turning his back on his parties fundamentals and eventually his electors hopes and dreams. There was only ever going to be one outcome.

I'm glad someone mentioned the 'Loyalists' very public handing in of weapons at the beginning of the current ceasefire. They may have been old weapons but they still fire bullets and when waved in your face in the middle of the night in front of your family then the still strike fear into you. It is still a lot more weaponry than the IRA has publically relinquished. Imagine if the IRA had taken the bold first step and called in RTE and the BBC to film the first steps t'wards a decommissioning and then the UDA/UVF had said
"...okay, guys, we've disarmed too. You'll just have to take our word on that.... well okay, if you insist on verification, we'll get a couple of vicars with a few disposal cameras...". You can imagine the reaction.

Incidentally, quite a number of recovered handguns within the UK from criminal gangs, when forensically checked have been linked to guncrimes in the Province. The 'Gangs of Belfast' are getting rid of their 'dirty' weapons alright, by flooding the deprived areas of the UK with them.

As for Paisleys anti semetic remarks, well he should be hounded and forced to apologise as Ken Livingstone did, but as for comparing him to Adolf Hitler, my my, I've read some drivell on these threads but that is ridiculous and deeply worrying about some contributers grasp of history. Why not go the whole way and say HMP Magrahfelt will be turned into the next Belsen just because Rev. I. P. has come to power.

As for whoever it was who said that most crimes are committed by the 'Loyalists' well I'll just say (again) Omagh, Northern Bank and McCartney to that. The plethora of beatings with bats unfortunately occur in any major city and are, I'm afraid, a sign of the times.

The term 'whinging Welsh, Jockanese and Breetesh Passport Hulder' was inserted to raise a smile or two which it did to the less sensitve viewer. I'm am of 'JockStock' and proud of it and I won't retract what I stated.


Replace LVF with IRA as the methods used by both sides are barbaric. The names and religious denominations change but the outcome is the same as the M.O. of the crime is the same- Murder, ruthless, barbaric murder whoever pulled the trigger or pressed the detonater. As I recall, I can't remember the UDA/UVF/RHC/LVF killing children outside a McDonalds, an unborn child in Manchester , OAP's and children in Enniskillen or indiscriminate men, women and children in Omagh. Unless you would care to enlighten us.


9th May 2005, 12:30
Those poor unionists, so outraged over discriminatory policies and undemocratic representation. One can understand why, what with their history of supporting minority civil rights.

ps. Nice one, dragging in the pope like that. Really demonstrated how unbiased you are...... :ok:

9th May 2005, 13:09

I know my title says Manchester, UK, but I live and work in the Middle East and was blissfully ignorant of what the Pope said until a friend of mine from Cork expressed his reservations about Ratzinghers appointment and his orthodox views and his attitudes towards 'Minority Christian sects' and how 'The Northerners will not like that!'. I happen to agree with him.


9th May 2005, 13:46
As I recall, I can't remember the UDA/UVF/RHC/LVF killing children outside a McDonalds, an unborn child in Manchester , OAP's and children in Enniskillen or indiscriminate men, women and children in Omagh. Unless you would care to enlighten us.
My point in referring to the LVF 'decommissioning' was not to defend Republican terrorists, but to illustrate to you that your simplistic analysis of the situation (i.e. that there are only Republican terrorists in NI) is plain wrong.
There are two sides in the conflict and the men of violence are equally sick on both sides.

While you have now admitted there is evil in both camps you still cling to this notion that Loyalist violence is somehow less evil. Your suggestion that only Republicans have carried out heinous crimes is either remarkably ignorant, or else a case of highly selective memory. Sadly I think its the latter.

If you needed reminders there are plenty of them.

The first 3 explosions in NI were carried out by loyalist terrorists:

30 March 1969
Explosion at an electricity substation near Belfast which was carried out by a Loyalist group possibly the Ulster Protestant Volunteers (UPV) or Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF). This incident was initially blamed on the Irish Republican Army (IRA).

21 April 1969
Explosion at Silent Valley reservoir in County Down which was carried out by a Loyalist group possibly the Ulster Protestant Volunteers (UPV) or Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF). This incident was initially blamed on the Irish Republican Army (IRA).

Thursday 21 October 1969
Thomas McDowell, member of the Ulster Protestant Volunteers (UPV) (or the Ulster Volunteer Force, UVF), died when a bomb he was handling exploded prematurely at a power station near Ballyshannon in County Donegal.

One of the very first victims of loyalist violence in NI was a Catholic child shot dead in his bed in 1969, Patrick Rooney, aged 9.

In 1974 the UVF blew up McGurks bar in Belfast killing 15 catholics.

The Shankill butchers, who cruised the interface streets of Belfast in the 70's picking up, torturing, mutilating and beheading innocent catholic victims. Their catchcall was 'any Taig will do'.

The killing of 17 innocent civilians in Dublin and Monaghan by loyalist bombs in 1974, including John (24), Anna (22), Jacqueline (17 months) & Anne-Marie (5 months) O'Brien, and John Dargle (80). Babies, OAPs, innocent men and women.Dublin/Monaghan Dead (http://www.dublinmonaghanbombings.org/lost.php)

I could go on and on, but whats the point? The fact is that there is equal evil on both sides, proven, QED. So give up the apologia for Loyalist terror Pontius, distance must be clouding your memory.
You asked to be enlightened. Consider it done.

9th May 2005, 15:33
Much like with the death of Arafat, changes of peace in NI will increase when Paisley will meet his creator, if there's one...

9th May 2005, 15:57
Pontious, worryingly you seem unaware of attrocities like the Dublin and Monaghan bombings committed by Loyalist terror groups with the aid of British agents. Also the killing of Pat Finnucane, a Catholic civil rights lawyer killed again with assistance from Britsh agents.

Both sides have committed atrocities.

As for the Pope, what a stupid comment! Can't recall Ratzinger ever denouncing the Archbishop of Canterbury as being the Anti-Christ!

I mean how can anyone take Paisley seriously when he makes bizarre and quite disturbing comments like that?

He is a religious rabble rouser who always turns the political dialogue in NI into one of religious hatred. To call Tony Blair a "Romanist" says it all.

Scenic Route
9th May 2005, 18:02
seriously though OW22, there has been british input to the republican terrorism as well. they are all as bad as each other.

9th May 2005, 19:04
It is still a lot more weaponry than the IRA has publically relinquished. Imagine if the IRA had taken the bold first step and called in RTE and the BBC to film the first steps t'wards a decommissioning and then the UDA/UVF had said
"...okay, guys, we've disarmed too. You'll just have to take our word on that.... well okay, if you insist on verification, we'll get a couple of vicars with a few disposal cameras...". You can imagine the reaction.You have got to be kidding - don't you...? :confused:

The IRA have decommissioned weapons dump after weapons dump, verified by Gen. de Chastelaine. Are you saying you don't trust him? Or are you implying that he's an IRA stooge? This is one of the reasons why the IRA is totally disenchanted with UK and Unionist propaganda - they went along with much decommissioning, and then Paisley insisted on moving the goalposts, specifically (in my view) to torpedo the process. He insisted that de Chastelaine's confirmation wasn't good enough - he wanted the IRA to be publicly humiliated. And you know what? Surprise, surprise, they weren't keen on it. The made a huge step forward only to be told by the hardliners "Not good enough - we want you to eat dogsh1t as well". So Paisley was totally responsible for that setback.

Furthermore, a significant number of IRA weapons have been filmed being destroyed, and done so publicly. Or perhaps that missed your attention? Explosives, automatic weapons, mortars, etc. etc. I fully concede that the Loyalists have destroyed a handful of old firearms. But that is all it is, and worth nothing in the terms of the current debate.

Scenic Route
9th May 2005, 22:27
Bearing in mind the torment they have spawned why the hell shouldn't the terrorists in ulster, loyalist and republican alike be humiliated,their victims have been through much worse. Why is the filming and individual personal reports of decommissioning so humiliating anyway? get the effing guns out of the country and give dialogue and compassion a chance.

and NO, I would trust my own judgement of decommissioning before that of any terrorist/politician/armed forces of any country

Why shouldn't I see and declare the weapons that have hurt and maimed my friends and family (and I include both catholics and protestants in that) to be decommissioned?

9th May 2005, 23:07
The last few pages of this discussion only go to show that one of my sergeants was right when he stated that NI was a geological problem.......

The whole dammed place is above sea level

Scenic Route
9th May 2005, 23:09
shut it grunt, so is holland

10th May 2005, 02:04
Lima - sorry, I can't remember when it was, but I have seen it on TV.

The way people on the republican/nationalist side see it is that they have bent over backwards for disarmament and decommissioning, and they are always asked for more, told every time "Just do it - it'll completely defuse any argument the DUP have, and then the loyalists will have to disarm as well".

It hasn't happened yet, and my guess is it won't happen - there'll always be one more hurdle they have to jump, and always one more humiliation, one more defence against loyalist violence they have to dismantle.

You have to bear in mind that, during the civil rights marches of the late '60s, when the demonstrations were non-violent, when the IRA possessed approximately four old revolvers, one rusty rifle and two kilos of fertiliser, the UDA were firebombing Catholic housing estates in Derry and there was no defence available from the RUC, the IRA or anyone. The Catholic community don't trust the Unionists. And I don't blame them.

They feel now that they are being told to disarm totally and leave themselves defenceless, and then the Loyalist paramilitaries will disarm. Would you, under those circumstances? I wouldn't.

They are all marked for who they are. In that part of the world, what side you are on is decided from birth. Your surname - is it O'Neill or Smith? First name - Sean or Billy? Your hair colour? Did you go to King William's Primary School or St. Teresa's Primary? Where do you live? Holywood or Ballymartin?

The Catholic community has been discriminated against for so long and so deeply, so long prevented from even applying for jobs considered the preserves of Protestants, deprived even the vote or housing outside the Catholic ghettos that the sense of distrust, of persecution is incredibly deep-rooted. Hence many people see the IRA as their only defence against the rampaging hordes of Apprentice boys and Orangemen that they saw back in the late '60s and early '70s.

They feel they have given a heck of a lot and that the Loyalists have been asked for and given nothing. The hatred that spews daily from Paisley and his band of thugs gives them fresh cause for fear - fear for their jobs, their homes, their families' livelihoods, and their very lives.

It's time that the Unionists demonstrated their bona fides instead of demanding yet more from the Nationalists.

Curious Pax
10th May 2005, 08:10
Depends what end you are seeking for this whole problem in Northern Ireland whether you need to see the IRA humiliated. If the desire is for a peaceful prosperous region that will decide peacefully one day whether it wishes to be part of the UK or part of Eire, then humiliation will set that back possibly many years. If on the other hand you just want to see the IRA obliterated, and b*gg*er the consequences then there's nothing wrong with a bit of humiliation.

Some of the stuff en route to peace may well be unpalatable - that's the nature of this sort of conflict, but for me it's one of the occasions where the ends justify the means.

PS: as someone who has lived in The Netherlands, and is shortly to return there for another period of time, thanks for backing my case! ;)

Scenic Route
10th May 2005, 08:29
Curious Pax,

The word humiliation in my post was an indication of how the terrorists viewed the decommissioning. For those who wish to see the guns gone seeing physical evidence of decommissioning is not considered humiliation but a necessary step to secure saftey.

Toodle pip to you have a good time in the Netherlands

Curious Pax
10th May 2005, 08:50
Thanks for the good wishes.

I disagree that the terrorists view the disarming as humiliation. Rightly or wrongly what they view as humiliation is being forced to play it out in public. They seem to accept the basic case for disarming, which is a big jump from the 70s/80s, but want to retain some face by appearing to control the process. If that is what it takes to complete the disarming process then so be it - it is better than them not disarming by a country mile.

How do you view Paisley's intervention when things seemed to be coming together last year until he demanded 'sackcloth and ashes' from the IRA, which torpedoed the whole thing?

Scenic Route
10th May 2005, 09:54
Curious Pax

here's the reworded version for you:

The word humiliation in my post was an indication of how the terrorists viewed the public decommissioning.

The bombings and killings etc were public enough, there are those (including myself) who would wish to view the decommissioned arms dumps if and when. As for saving face, the appreciation of the general public when the weapons of violence would be decommissioned would be the reward to soften any percieved humiliation by any of the groups of terrorists.

As for Paisley you ask:

"How do you view Paisley's intervention when things seemed to be coming together last year until he demanded 'sackcloth and ashes' from the IRA, which torpedoed the whole thing?"

Firstly, I would wish to see public decommissioning of all terrorist groups, not just the IRA. Furthermore I refer back to a previous post where I pointed out that there will be peace in northern ireland when there is forgiveness and reconciliation on individual levels no matter which politician or party is deemed to be in control.

I trust you'll have internet access in the netherlands, safe journey.


10th May 2005, 10:04
Some of you guys must just read selectively!

I STATED no matter who pulls the trigger OR presses the detonater MURDER IS MURDER and it is all heinous. I was well aware of past Loyalist atrocities, HOWEVER the attrocities commited in the name of a 'United Ireland' to which I was referring, namely McCartney, Northern Bank, Omagh and the threat to blow up the Belfast Marathon are headline acts and threats of terror which have happened POST DECLARED CEASEFIRE in addition to the drug dealing and 'punishment beatings' ordered by BOTH sides.

McCartney, Omagh, Northern Bank, the Belfast Marathon and the intransigence concerning decommissioning are the reasons the people of NI cannot, do not and will not trust the words of the IRA or their political Puppet Show- FACT.

And why shouldn't the British Armed Forces have a presence in the Province?


10th May 2005, 15:49

Omagh - Carried out by the 'RIRA', not the Provisionals. The Provisional IRA are on sustained ceasefire, the RIRA are not. So don't lump Sinn Fein/The Peace Process/ the IRA in with a group who not only have nothing to do with them, but are actually their sworn enemies.

McCartney murder - Mr.McCartney was a staunch Republican and an active member of Sinn Fein, if not the IRA. He was attacked in a bar over some personal dispute with another IRA man. This is the kind of event which would normally be largely ignored by the media since 'no human beings were involved' and bar fights occur in any town in the UK most weekends, often ending in similiar tradgedies.
Yet Mr.McCartneys murder has been seized upon by all and sundry as a cause celebre. Very worthy too, if it weren't for the suspicion that those who are shouting loudest about it have the most to gain from seeing Republicans and - more importantly - Sinn Fein discredited, and smeared by association. The ROI's minister for justice has a particular interest in seeing SF damaged since his own party are struggling in the pols while SF are striding ahead. There's an election coming!
You are jumping on the same bandwagon. I'm quite sure that Mr.McCartney (the IRA man) could go to hell in a handcart for all you actually care about him. Crocodile tears and hypocrisy.

Northern Bank - Still unproven as to who was responsible. No evidence presented by anyone that the IRA did it. If you have some proof I'd recommend you turn it over to the authorities.

Finally, on the subject of punishment beatings.
If you lived on a council estate in West Belfast, where the police never venture, and your car is being vandalised or stolen every week, or your house and family are being targetted by young thugs - you'd be glad there's someone around to give them a hiding which they richly deserve. Again, this is just another example of the hypocrisy of those who feign some kind of concern for the poor wee lad who got a beating - when in fact they couldn't really give a damn what the thug does, or what really happens to him or his victims.

10th May 2005, 15:52
I'm still waiting for that word to be removed effortless :rolleyes:

Scenic Route
10th May 2005, 15:56

With reference to the northern bank robbery substanstial amounts of stolen notes turned up in various money laundering systems belonging to that of the IRA and the other constitutional parts of republican terrorism as was reported by the Gardai who were acting on information passed to them by the PSNI.

10th May 2005, 16:04
Yeah, I heard about that too - a bunch of cash was found in Cork, right? In possesion of some (quote) Sinn Fein IRA activist (unquote).
It was trumpeted all over the news as being final conclusive proof of IRA involvement.

A few days later there was a quiet little reference at the end of some bulletins which said the police had now realised the money was not from the NB raid.
In fact I never heard another word about charges being instigated against this so called 'activist' either.

When they charge someone, try him, and he's found guilty, then you can tell me who did it and I might believe you. Until then - you're just speculating.

Scenic Route
10th May 2005, 17:49
yup cork and dublin.

so show me some link to any report conclusively proving it wasn't them and then I may accept (not bl00dy likely) your pro terrorist witterings.

Idunno how aptly named.

10th May 2005, 18:18

What a load of sickening propaganda you are peddling ! You are behaving like an apologist for the very lawlessness and anarchy you purport to despise. Condoning and advocating beatings and punishment outside the law is exactly why both communities are polarised yet again. Blair's arrogance and belief that he could appease these murderers has just played straight into Paisley's hands and given comfort to Sinn Fein/IRA thugs who think they can continue to rule by intimidation and brutality.

The hypocrisy of Adams and McGuinness is fully exposed now with the ongoing Sinn Fein political cover up of McCartney's murder and continuing veiled threats against those brave girls. You presume too much when you say people don't care about these killings and barbaric punishment beatings. Just the same tactic being punted by a rattled Sinn Fein, despite their showing in the polls. We'll all live to regret Blair's appeasement of these thugs because it has played into the hands of the criminals and parasites who continue to threaten, intimidate and bleed the people of NI dry.

10th May 2005, 21:15
so show me some link to any report conclusively proving it wasn't them Ever heard of 'Innocent until proven guilty' Scenic? No? Not surprised really, yours is the kind of justice people are used to receiving in Loyalist Ulster.

Witter away Pilgrim, this is not about the IRA, UDA, UVF or terrorism at all. Its about setting the facts straight.
The reason Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness (and consequently Sinn Fein) are hated is nothing to do with beatings or bank robberies, but because they are the most gifted and articulate politicians in the country, North AND South, and more than a match for red-neck unionist bigots like Paisley and his DUP cohorts. They even give Blair and his suits in WhiteHall a good run for their money.

There's nothing worse than an uppity ni**er - sorry - TAIG, is there?

Bleed the country dry? You Loyalist spongers have bled the UK dry for the last 80 years. Harold Wilson was the only British Prime Minister with enough balls to tell you so. He should've dumped you back in '74 during your outrageous efforts to hold the UK to ransom by violence, strikes and intimidation. You succeeded in your aims then too - by destroying the nascent power sharing executive. Thanks to you the country was plunged into 20 years of communal violence and terror.

Loyalist hardliners have wrecked every attempt at a peace process ever made in NI. Simply because any 'process' that involved compromise meant they might have to give something.

Not a chance! Why should they, when they have the British to guarentee their intransigence - like it or lump it.

Remember the old sayings Pilgrim? Not an inch! Ulster Says NO! Croppy lie down!

Loyalism has chosen to wreck this process again, by slapping away the hand of freindship offerred by Nationalists and Republicans, and painting their representatives (the only ones who have consistently championed the peace process) as malefactors.

10th May 2005, 21:43
Pardon my stupidity ,
But is Northern Ireland part of the EU ?
Do they sell calenders there ?you know one's with this years date on them?
I thought it was to cold over there to grow oranges?
I prefer lemon's in my tea.
If firefighters fight fire ,what do freedom fighters fight ?
Perhaps the paddy's should embrace islam .You now that other "peaceloving religion" from the middle east.Or perhaps give Budda a try ?

10th May 2005, 23:12
You'd better be careful who you call Paddy.
Big Ian would cut your head off for such a slanderous remark.

So anyhow, how'd the seal cull go this year over your side of the pond? You Canadians ever hear of synthetic fur?
Such barbarism! Oughta be ashamed!

11th May 2005, 00:03
Do you know what a baby seals favorite drink is ?

Canadian Club on the rocks

Too bad if "big Ian ' Does not know that when a paddy uses the P word it is a form of endearment.Kinda like when a person of africian descent uses the N word.
As a lot of my ancestors came from the Emerald Isle when i use the word Paddy it is out of Love , i do not intend to give offence by the use off i and apoligise unresevedly to any who feel offended by my use of a word that me da used to describe himself
Do you know why paddy jokes are so simple ?

So the english can understand them :D :D
Laughing at yourself is good for the soul

11th May 2005, 00:03
mini is Irish, his other (better) half is from "Northern Ireland", Portadown, to be exact, from a sash wearing family, we kick with different feet, as they say.

Both of us have served with different "security forces" during the "troubles" so have first hand experience of the aftermath of atrocities. Both of us have also spent many years in other conflict/post conflict zones around the world in a humanitarian capacity.

Northern Ireland is unique in its polarisation, not only political but also cultural, the history to its current situation has been done to death already, the reality is that there will be no quick fix. The latest election results will result in status quo - i.e. sustained "ceasefire" , bickering etc and the chance of a semi normal life. This has been acknowledged by TB in appointing a minor figure to safeguard the simmering pot.

Jerrico, my MIL is visiting tonight, she's a dote...with strong opinions but still a dote :ok:

11th May 2005, 01:32
When the Good Friday Agreement was being drawn up Ian Paisley was outside protesting against it, against something that didn’t yet exist!!! That just about sums him up. He starts trouble for the sake of starting trouble, which I know several of you agree with from what I’ve read in this thread. Political rant over!

Unfortunately it is too late for some, but I think the focus should be on educating the younger generations on tolerance, and showing them how futile and destructive the fighting and bigotry is. I would like my children, should I bring them up in Northern Ireland, to be able to get onto a school bus in the mornings without the fear of bullying I and my friends experienced. Yet that was nothing compared to what kids in more built-up and bigoted areas had to cope with.

It is easy to see how the bias continues within Northern Ireland. You are brought up with your family and friends being the main influences on the formation of your opinions. If they are telling you to hate something then of course you will - that is perfectly understandable.

The problem lies in that there is not enough social education for these children to realise that what they are being told is wrong. They need to realise that the 'other side' are exactly the same as they are. They like the same sports (mostly!), tv programmes, music etc etc, and should be educated on what differences there are and why. You’d be amazed by the amount of good-spirited envy raised by not having to go to Mass every Sunday or getting Holy Days off school! More interaction between schools and cross-community trips should be encouraged, so that when children are old enough to question their parents’ and friends’ beliefs, and form their own opinions (which they will no doubt do), then this is done fully informed.

Whilst I can understand why both sides seem to have reverted back to more staunch politicians this election, I think it is such a pity that Northern Ireland is going backwards in time towards an even bigger divide between the politics. If only the hooligans would stop the fighting and arguing, then all the time and money wasted on it could be put towards providing better education, job opportunities, housing, roads, emergency services and healthcare for our families, the things we should REALLY care about! The country has so much to offer its inhabitants and many people from around the world, so it is a real shame that those causing the problems wouldn’t wise themselves up and make it somewhere we can all be proud to say we come from!!

Sorry to have bored you all. Rant over!

11th May 2005, 05:27

Either you are one hell of a wind-up merchant or you actually believe the bullsh1t you are vomitting onto this forum. I think its the latter, I pray its the former.

You have quite a severe case of myopia coupled with a nasty case of tunnel vision if you believe what you say.

If the PIRA had nothing whatsoever to do with Omagh, then why haven't they 'persuaded' the individuals guilty of committing this atrocity to turn themselves in? I'm not talking about delivering them into the hands of the PSNI or Gardai, because that's as realistic a chance as platting sea fog. But the IRA offered to deal with McCartney's killers in a typically brutish manner condusive with IRA internal discipline. So if their hands were 'clean' after Omagh, why couldn't they offer the same or 'assist' in the nailing of the murderers? Or at least say so publically instead of a simple "It wasn't us!". Could it be that the IRA has no interest whatsoever of helping to nail the bastards because the victims were mainly Proddies and Catholics who want to keep out of the troubles and therefore don't matter? Whereas they have to 'act' when it is the brutal stabbing of one of their own by one of there own and 'have to be seen to make a token gesture'? What now the EU has allowed funds to be given to the family of Robert McCartney to mount a civil case? Is the IRA going to mount a blitz in Brussels, Strasbourg....?

I agree with you that Adams, McGuiness and you may as well include McGloughlin in that line up as well are indeed gifted politicians, like most politicians they are astute manipulators, liars and in this case liars with blood on their hands. They still have the guns under the table, all the Unionists have said is that there'll be no talks until the guns are removed from the table. Now is that such an unreasonable request?

You are slightly peeved and a tad worried that you have lost your 'spy in the enemies camp' with a much newtered Blair, but who has he put in charge? Peter Hain! A weaker and more ineffective a politician you could never meet. And Blair's put him into bat against RIP!!! There'll only be one winner there. It will be like putting Julian Clary in a ring with a hand tied behind his back up against Mike Tyson.

Your traditional allies in Dublin are distancing themselves from you and the 'protectors and bag men' in the U.S. are running away from you as well, that could be a reason for the Northern Bank raid. Sinn Fein are going to have to negotiate for their political lives. They are going to have to convince the IRA to disarm.

I suggest you tone down your blatant support for the terrorists on this forum as quite a few posters find your "The sun shines out of the IRA'S arse" a tad offensive. I suspect the moderators will be taking a special interest in some of the postings on this thread plus I know Danny doesn't tolerate inflammatory rantings.

Healthy debate is just that, healthy. On a forum like this it is also a bit of fun. Let's keep it that way. And if you or anybody else is in any doubt about my 'affiliations'. I don't support RIP and I don't support GA or their causes,but I believed in David Trimble & I support the aspirations of the peacedesiring majority of people of one of the most beautiful places in Europe. The balance was favouring one side for far too long with terrible consequences, unless it's checked soon, it's in danger swinging to far to the other side, with the threat of a new dark chapter in the Provinces tormented history. Give up the guns, Give up the terror, Sit back and enjoy the Peace.


Scenic Route
11th May 2005, 08:29

"Ever heard of 'Innocent until proven guilty' Scenic? No? Not surprised really, yours is the kind of justice people are used to receiving in Loyalist Ulster."

You are barking up the wrong tree kid. And do not equate me with either loyalist or nationalist Ulster.


"as realistic a chance as platting sea fog"

Request permission to use said expression?

"one of the most beautiful places in Europe" ;)

got that right!

"Give up the guns, Give up the terror, Sit back and enjoy the Peace."

Here Here.

11th May 2005, 13:09
Thanks Scenic- Use away! PM me if you fancy meeting up in the Crown Liquor Saloon for a pint of the Black Stuff and lots of Bushmills chasers!!!!


11th May 2005, 14:31

I support the aspirations of the peacedesiring majority of people ..........that's brilliant, yet on your first post you said

no surrender

Excuse me for being a tad confused. I had an exam this morning and my brain is a bit mush, however it does seem a condtradiction of terms.

11th May 2005, 15:20
It meant exactly that, McAero, No surrender. No discussion without decommission. As far as I know the Loyalist death squads and Unionist big wigs don't have a monoploy on certain phrases within the Queen's English Language. I can understand your concerns and I admit I threw it in there to liven up the debate. All the best with your exams.


Curious Pax
11th May 2005, 15:36
I can understand that you would want the Loyalist side to get as much from negotiations as possible, but surely you don't expect that the IRA will decommission its arms (in full view of the TV cameras etc if the DUP had their way) before any discussions take place? That is a sure fire way of guaranteeing a stalemate or a return to full scale terrorism over the next few years.

At least the IRA don't demand that they themselves have a seat at any negotiations. I know that you would often be hard pressed to put a cigarette paper between them and Sinn Fein, but it all comes down to choreography in the end!

If the Loyalists were a bit cleverer they would let Sinn Fein and the IRA hang themselves - to a small extent over the bank robbery, and to a larger extent over the McCartney killing, they are making the obvious transition to organised crime, rather than political terrorism. Once the majority of the Nationalist side view them in that light then they will be marginalised and rapidly become irrelevant. Unfortunately too many on the Loyalist side are quick to jump in and mouth off, which returns sympathy among some Nationalists to Sinn Fein.

Flying Lawyer: have we answered your question yet? :confused:

11th May 2005, 18:19
Curious Pax.

I whole heartedly agree with your last paragraph. I only saw covereage of the McCartney killing via BBC News24, SkyNews and later CNN but there definately seemed to be no reaction from the Unionists unless it was evident on the Ulster, Irish and UK domestic TV circuits. Maybe it was a tactic to let the IRA hang itself so to speak or maybe they didn't want to make a political issue out of it.

You're right and ANY forthcoming decommissioning would have more significance if it came from within the Sinn Fein/ PIRA/ Republican movement itself.

Anything to get the guns out of the equation, anything to get the talks going again.


11th May 2005, 19:04

I suggest you look more carefully at the content and tone of your own posts before offering people advice about theirs. Idunno has said nothing inappropriate. If he had, the Mods would have taken action. You may not be, but some of us are interested in reading and considering posts by both sides in this discussion.


11th May 2005, 19:05
Pontious, I agree entirely with your last paragraph. Would you therefore agree that a demonstration of goodwill by the Loyalists Paramilitaries in decomissioning their own weapons would help the peace process?

11th May 2005, 19:31
Either you are one hell of a wind-up merchant or you actually believe the bullsh1t you are vomitting onto this forum. I think its the latter, I pray its the former.Gee Pontius, y'know, I really try to avoid these kind of personal attacks you are making. I don't think they add much to any debate. Vomiting? Bullshitting? I'll leave that to you old son. You've made enough patently deceitful assertions on this thread which have been refuted - with evidence - and you seem unable to stand being contradicted.

Your hysteria level is rising.

Thats a common enough response from hard line unionism, but really, enough of the Paisley-like rants.

I'm sure Danny would agree with me that you should take it down a notch or two before you bust a blood vessel.

I don't intend to engage in further debate with you until you've calmed down but I'll finish with this.

In the annals of political liars and manipulators, consider this name.
David Burnside.
Devoted Orange Man, dismissed British soldier, former aide to the crooked Robert Maxwell, fired British Airways PR head, convicted drunk driver and previously failed Ulster assembly candidate!!

Mr.Burnside will be remembered especially by the Virgin Atlantic pilots on this BB - and by their boss Sir Richard Branson - as the man who attempted to discredit and smear (sounding familiar yet??) their company, and who ended up costing BA 4.5 Million quid in the ensuing libel case.

Having been ousted from BA, he ran off to South Antrim, where he was welcomed into the open arms of your hero, David Trimble, who nominated him on the UUP ballot paper - where he was duly elected! And even now, as Trimble has been ejected from the party leadership - Burnside is jockeying for his position on the leadership nomination sheet!

Such is the quality of Unionisms leaders! And I haven't even mentioned Paisleys faux pas of sharing a platform in Portadown with a convicted murderer and terrorist!

Before you condemn others - take a look at yourself.

11th May 2005, 19:41
Excellent stuff Idunno!
Here's the full report.

Unsavoury loyalist (One in our series of Profiles In Perfidy)

The Ulster Unionist party candidate for South Antrim should have no place in politics

Martyn Gregory, July 27, 2000 The Guardian

This week many terrorists, both loyalist and republican, are being released from prison as part - and a painful and controversial part - of the Northern Ireland peace process. But meanwhile, the unionists are about to bring into politics a man who, while not a bomber or a terrorist himself, is a deeply unsavoury figure. His arrival on the Northern Ireland political scene in a by election this September is unlikely to be helpful.

On his selection as the Ulster Unionist party candidate for South Antrim, David Burnside predictably announced that he would fight a "hard professional campaign". He has already put blocks on his leader David Trimble's road to peace by opposing moves to change the Royal Ulster Constabulary's name. Less expected was the point he made of declaring that he was "more than proud" of everything he did at British Airways before he was fired.

Burnside was head of public relations at BA until the airline succumbed to Virgin Atlantic in the famous 1993 "dirty tricks" libel case. The Ulsterman was the only BA employee to be removed by the BA board - Lord Marshall and other directors made good their own escape from the wreckage of a bungled attempt to drive Sir Richard Branson's then fledgling airline out of business.

£500,000 was the price BA reportedly paid to soothe Burnside's fall from his position as the "most powerful in-house PR man in Britain". More importantly for BA, it also bought his silence.
Burnside had been dubbed the Irish "kneecapper". He won this monicker not only because of his uncompromising treatment of anyone who dared to write anti-BA copy, but also because of his history of militant Protestantism.

In 1975 Burnside had been dismissed as a part-time private in the Ulster Defence Regiment (then part of the British army) for writing inflammatory articles inciting the terrorism that the UDR existed to stamp out. In one article for the Ulster Defender, a publication produced by the Derry command of the Ulster Defence Association, he wrote of the "very real threat" of "communism" taking over in Ulster.

Burnside warned that "the people will take steps to defend themselves". The young militant's contributions jostled for space with crudely penned missives from such anonymous contributors as "the Armourer", who explained how to dismantle Armalites and warned darkly that: "Protestant paramilitaries are getting stronger every day". Burnside's army career was terminated despite an appeal; his activities were deemed to be incompatible with serving as a British soldier.

David Burnside stood unsuccessfully for the North Antrim seat in the Ulster assembly in 1982, and he later opposed the 1985 Anglo-Irish agreement as his BA career as Lord King's chief press officer took off.

However, it was a personal misjudgment by Burnside in 1992, at the height of BA's dirty tricks dispute with Virgin, that led to Branson's successful libel suit. Burnside authorised the publication of a libellous article in the in-house BA News. It appeared the morning after my own ITV This Week documentary which first exposed BA's dirty tricks was aired. Burnside, it seemed, approved the article's publication before he had even seen the documentary.

This in turn led to Virgin's historic high court victory in January 1993. A British record of £610,000 in libel damages, and an estimated £4.5m in costs was the heavy price of defeat. Even more significantly, the libel case led to the unravelling of BA's determined campaign to sink Virgin.

When BA originally launched its attack on Branson's six-plane Virgin Atlantic, Burnside relished the task of firing BA's broadsides in the press. It was once said of both Burnside and Lord King, his boss, that they "would love to have fought a war". The Ulsterman appeared to enjoy goading BA's bearded rival Branson with sour, personalised and inflammatory press releases.Pontius? Is that you Dave?

Later, when Branson succeeded in getting a tabloid journalist secretly to tape BA's external PR consultant and Burnside's friend, Brian Basham, BA's campaign was rumbled. Basham was taped plugging BA's line to the gossip columnists that Virgin would be the unsuccessful "Freddie Laker all over again", and that it was "scandalous" that Virgin had been given BA routes by the Tory government.

Burnside also had contacts with the small army of private detectives that BA hired to undermine Branson. For a weekly sum of up to £15,000 at its peak, shadowy incompetents apparently convinced Burnside that Branson was himself running an undercover operation against BA - the exact reverse of the truth.

On April 13 1992, Burnside held a secret meeting in the Tickled Trout - a Lancashire pub. Outside the pub, private detectives hired by BA were bugging his meeting with a flamboyant millionaire, Owen Oyston, recently released from jail on rape/murder conviction and an associate, Peter Martin.

In the pub Burnside, who was wired himself, was persuaded that Martin was working as a Virgin "agent" against BA. Martin assured BA's press chief that he had been tasked by Virgin with preparing a report on him. Almost unbelievably, given that Martin never produced any evidence, Burnside believed him.

In fact Martin never had any connection with Branson or Virgin at all. He was a chancer who had taken time off from committing a series of appalling crimes against young women in the Manchester area to pose successfully as a private detective and thus con Burnside and BA. Later, in 1996, Martin was sentenced to 20 years in prison for a series of rapes. The judge condemned his "evil lust", and his "disgusting, degrading and depraved behaviour".

Unfortunately for Burnside's BA career, a log of the Tickled Trout encounter prepared by the BA spooks bugging the meeting was later leaked. When its heady mixture of fantasy and misjudgment emerged, BA's defence against Branson's libel suit was destroyed and Burnside's BA career was over. The following year Burnside was banned from driving for three years and fined £1,000 when he had been found asleep and drunk at the wheel of his car by Lancashire police after a spectacular drinking bout with Owen Oyston. Oyston himself was convicted of rape and imprisoned in 1996.

That Ulster unionism should have had to scrape the bottom of its deep barrel to find such a discredited member of its political and professional elite to represent its South Antrim stronghold will disappoint many who have sacrificed so much for peace in Ulster.
Lord King, Baroness Thatcher, and the prospective candidate for South Antrim, may soon be able to reminisce in the tea rooms of Westminster about how close they all came to eliminating competition in British commercial aviation, and the rewards that process brought them.

The people of South Antrim, however, should be aware that they are electing a discredited individual who will provide yet another determined, sectarian obstacle to peace in their time.


Scenic Route
11th May 2005, 21:55

there are more than two sides thank you very much.

Some people within the province do not adhere to bigoted politics and it is they abhor any form of sectarianism and terrorism. They have been brought up in mixed marriage families and been to mixed schools (though not half as mixed up as the minds of the people that ran them!:p ). Their main concern for politics in ulster is to find a party they can vote for who will strengthen the "cross-community" (especially the really angry ones ;) ) interactions and bring about some level of understanding and acceptance of everyones differences.

12th May 2005, 12:23

I suggest you look at Idunnos' previous posts and read them in their entirity before offering me any advice about the content of mine. I'm not the only one he's offended.


The Loyalists took the first step of decommissioning some weapons in public, after the Army had announced taking troops of the streets and dismantaling the border watchtowers in South Armagh. The CIRA, PIRA or RIRA has yet to do so.


What a waste of typing. Is that the best you can do? What about the Sinn Fein hierarchy with blood on their hands? You've discovered 1 unsavoury Unionist who, in my opinion should be behind bars, and with a track record that even the Nazi's wouldn't have touched back in the 30's. Burnside is a freak!

For the final time, I have family both sides of the border and some very, very close to it. I have no strong allegiances to EITHER organisation, however after seeing the intransigence and downright appeasment of the IRA by Blair, the refusal of the IRA to enter a public decommissioning process and now the Unionist electorate feeling as though they have to elect Paisley to prevent any further erosion of their rights, and lets not forget they make up the DEMOCRATIC MAJORITY of the province, I have formed the views and opinions I hold today. As an 'outsider' looking in, it's plain and obvious for anybody to see that THE sticking point is the decommissioning of the IRA's weapons. Like I said earlier, the Loyalists made a token gesture, the Army made a token gesture, the Provo's haven't. They CONTINUE 'shadowing' members of the security sevices to/from their homes and places of work and aside from the occassional beating have continued to engage in wholesale illegal paramilitary activity including planning to bomb the Belfast marathon.

The Loyalists offered to publically decommission arms and made a token gesture.- FACT

The British Army stuck to it's word and reduced the no. of troops in NI and took troops off the streets.-FACT

The British Army also dismantled the watchtowers in South Armagh.-FACT

The IRA continues to carry out criminal and terrorist activities and rehearses for attacks on members of the security services.

The IRA is losing financial support from NORAID and other contributers due to continued terrorist and criminal acts.- FACT

Sinn Fein is losing support from London, Dublin and Washington due to the IRA's continued terrorist and criminal acts.-FACT

The Unionist electorate in NI feel let down by Blair and sorry for Trimble but they feel as though Paisley is the real alternative.- FACT

The IRA has yet to hand in one single weapon for the people of Ulster to see.- FACT

Now, Idunno and Maxalt is there anything you see above that isn't 100% FACT? Or have you given up, Idunno?

You guys just can't see that in the eyes of an increasing majority, it's the IRA that's holding the process up. But then again maybe you, as they can see that the need for the IRA and it's very existance is being called into question by the Nationalist community itself due to the stabbing of an innocent man and the pressure brought to bear upon his family seeking justice and answers. Every household in Nationalist Belfast and all areas now knows that if it happened to the McCartney's it could happen to them.


12th May 2005, 12:59
Pontius, still not good enough to allow serious debate. You continue to attack the messenger instead of the message in your postings. I find your opinions offensive and distasteful too, but I've refrained from calling you stupid names. Wise up.

Burnside is indeed a freak, but he's not atypical of unionist politicians. McCrea is a bible thumping hymn singing red neck from Cullybacky. Sammy Wison, a closet swinger and nudist. Paisley stood on the same platform in Portadown as mass murderer and terrorist Billy Wright. The latest DUP hopeful, Paul Berry was recently revealed to be visiting hotels in Belfast for gay trysts with rent boys...all the while his party screams a hysterically anti gay message, and his boss Big Ian calls them 'abominations'.

I recently listened to Lady Sylvia Hermon being interviewed on her re-election. She is a truly decent person who sounds like a real human being, unlike the monsters of the DUP. She has met and worked with Adams and McGuinness and said she has no difficulty doing so as she found them honest and decent too. On the other hand she refuses to meet any member of the DUP, whom she seems to regard as fascists. Which indeed they are.

12th May 2005, 14:19
The whole depressing Norn Iron debate. What is particularly depressing is the swing to extremism in the politics there. In spite of relative peace for some time. It's as if they learned nothing from 30 years of murder. People voted for Sinn Fein, in spite of everything they've done. Bank robberies, murder, intimidation, gangsterism etc etc. That's what they voted for. Their attitude is probably very like Idunno's. Moderate nationalists lost their seats. Mark Durkan of the SDLP was only kept in by tactical voting by Unionists to keep the shinner out.

On the other hand the Unionists voted for the DUP who while they never indulge in bank robberies etc. Their leader is and absolute by-word for religious bigotry and has a consistent history of rabble rousing and and an uncompromising attitude to any agreement. Paisley in many ways was the spark that started the troubles all those years ago. There is blood on his hands.

So the people of Northern Ireland have voted for the extremists. Anything they suffer in the future from this madness will be fully deserved. They asked for it. They voted for it.

It's unbelievable.

12th May 2005, 18:00
Scenic Route
I meant the polarised sides in this discussion, but point taken.

My 'suggestion' was intended as a warning shot. It clearly failed.
I'll try again ....
Warning: Play the ball, not the player, or you won't be allowed to continue posting on this thread.


13th May 2005, 10:28
Do the folk who say moderate loyalists are being driven to support an extremist party because of concessions given to the Republican side in the peace process remember what drove moderate republicans into supporting and sometimes joining the IRA?

Has Ian Paisley EVER supported ANY peace proposal, agreement or compromise?
I dont mean with ifs and buts, I mean honored a compromise or agreement agreed by the majority even if he dont agree with all the terms?
From this side of the pond it looks like he's wanted them all to fail.

15th May 2005, 00:10

Does your 'suggestion' include ALL posters or just me?


If you feel my comments are too personal, well that's your opinion. I'm just giving as good as I get. We've duelled on previous forums and even though I've almost always disagreed with your view, I've thought you're a good debater.
We DID agree that Burnside is a freak on the fringes on criminality. However I don't accept your assertions that just because McCrea is a 'bible thumper' , Sammy Wilson a 'closet swinger & nudist' and Paul Berry a 'homosexual' they should be labelled as 'freaks'. As for Paisley and Billy Wright sharing a stage on the Ormeau Road at the start of the marching season, as I recall, Paisley refused to shake hands with Wright.


Paisley wants the guns removed from under the table BEFORE any talks and agreements can take place. Would you consider that unreasonable? My point being is that the IRA & some 'Loyalist' terror groups want to keep their arms to support its criminal activites such as drug dealing, racketeering and armed robbery, but the IRA is making the excuse that they can't trust the Unionists, the PSNI or the British Army to protect the Nationalist community so they must keep them as long as there is a 'struggle'
We all know what drove the Republicans to take up arms in the first place but the situation is in serious danger of swinging the other way, if unchecked with the 'Loyalist' terror groups committing wholesale murder again and us going back to the dark days of the 70's and 80's. Apart from a few psychos, NOBODY wants to go back to that.

Would any of the 'Anti-Paisley' brigade care to make any comments concerning the threats made towards the McCarthy family by 'criminal elements' within the Nationalist community? Will anybody join me in condeming it as brutal, barbaric bullying and intimidation?


15th May 2005, 01:22

You state you have family in the region etc. but I think the "facts" you have stated are somewhat slewed, ie the PIRA have decomissioned arms.

At the risk of Heliport escorting me off the premises for playing the player rather than the ball I do think your argument is rather one sided and overwhelmingly naive.

There are more than two sides to this argument, indeed the argument is complex, the solution will be commesurately slow in arriving. When both sides decide to omit historical precedents we may make some progress.

Regardless of the political bickering that continues, the "ceasefire" is holding as it applies to innocent citizens and NI is doing its best to get on with a normal life.

Give it a chance.

15th May 2005, 04:49
As I am just about to leave for work (yes I know it's Sunday and 0545!!) and do not have time to deal with some complaints I have had about various aspects of this thread, I am locking it until I return this evening. This is to avoid any precipitous action. I shall give it my full attention upon return.

16th May 2005, 06:27
This has been a very interesting thread and - hopefully - will continue to be so. Please help to keep it open by having a little respect for your adversary, even if you are vehemently diametrically opposed to his/her viewpoint/politics/religion/whatever.
Do NOT resort to personal abuse and think carefully before you post. This applies to everybody.

16th May 2005, 08:57

Burn 'em out ! In classic Republican style !

It is quite astonishing to see the IRA/Sin Fein so far out of touch on the propaganda war on the McCartney murder. The "street" is well aware of who the perpetrators are and the intimidation which has always worked so effectively in the past is cracking under the strain of increasing pressure from a long suffering majority of the public.

No reasonable person can possibly stomach Adams and his pontificating, mendacious but admittedly eloquent statements and McGuinness' veiled but well interpreted threat to the family concerned.

Paradoxically, any politician these days is regarded with disdain and there is a tremendous credibility gap which has opened up on anything the murderers in the IRA/ Real/ Provisional or otherwise say or do these days. Terrorists are just an anachronism in todays world and belong in the middle ages with their bankrupt thinking which demands frequent atrocities against innocent non combatants for publicity and shock value.

The widespread revulsion in the civilised world over Omagh will be the death of Irish Terror in any case.

16th May 2005, 10:06
I haven't SEEN any IRA decommissioning and neither have the vast majority of the people of Northern Ireland.

The ONLY visible signs of decommissioning within the province are the initial gesture by a 'Loyalist' terror group that, as I understand, disarmed (& disbanded?) as soon as the Republican ceasefire was announced, and the British Army's withdrawl of troops from the streets of Ulster followed by the removal of at least 1 battalion from the province altogether, in addition to the closure and removal of the watchtowers in the South Armagh border area.


I wholeheartedly agree with you. Yet again the IRA 'shoots' itself in the foot with open intimidation and threats against a family seeking justice for a heinous crime. I haven't seen RTE or UTV's reaction to the direct threats against the McCartneys or any comments from the Unionists. CNN's coverage didn't exactly paint them as 'Idealistic, Loveable Rogues'. It can't exactly reassure the peaceloving masses of Northern Ireland, especially after Omagh, McCartney, Northern Bank and the threat against the Belfast Marathon that the IRA is truly committed to peace.

It's all very well the IRA claiming to be decommissioning some arms probably connected with shootings and murders. I mean what better way of destroying evidence than getting a state sponsored disarmament commission to do it for you? There's probably a fresh load of Armalites and Semtex bobbing there way towards the Province as we type to replace the one's they've 'surrendered'. As 'yer man, Gerry' publically said in Londonderry, "...we haven't gone away, you know..."

If the FACTS I stated in an earlier post seem to some of the Ppruners a tad one-sided, then prove them wrong. If the FACTS seem one sided then maybe the situation in the Province is in danger of becoming too one-sided again and there, Ladies and Gentlemen, lies my concern. For the future for all the GOOD people of Northern Ireland from Newcastle to Londonderry, from the Fermanagh Lakes to Strangford Lough, from Bushmills to Bessbrook. It's their future I care about, not the face-saving of a bunch of heavily armed butchering bigots or the rantings of a political one.


16th May 2005, 10:55

1. I believe the words used were "they haven't gone away y'know" - not "we haven't gone away.....". It's a small but significant difference. This was said over five years ago BTW in response to heckling.

2. Even though the previous IRA acts of decommissioning were acceptable to both the British and Irish Governments (and an independant team) because you didn't personally get an invite to see it happen they don't count, no?

3. Again - Omagh bombing not the IRA

4. While it is true that as a southern-irish Catholic I would dearly love to see a 32-county Ireland it is also true that I, like the majority, do not support the IRA. One can support one without supporting the other. However discussion, at this juncture, provides the only real long-term solution .... and discussion with a view to moving forward. From what I've seen the biggest moves and concessions would appear to coming from one side - and that side is not the one you appear to sitting on.

5. In your rant about the various towns in N.I. I believe if you check you'll find that Londonderry is the county and DERRY is the city.

16th May 2005, 12:56
I stand corrected on point 1 but I found the way he said it, with a smug grin on his face, contemptable.

I haven't seen any decommissioning and neither have the vast majority of the people of Northern Ireland. It's they who need convincing, not Dublin or Westminster. Why wasn't it videoed and played on RTE? or UTV? For ALL to see, instead of a few 'chosen' Politic' types? The 'Loyalists' who handed their weapons in had no qualms about handing in their weapons in, in public. Why can't the IRA do the same?

Omagh- IRA offered to deal with McCartneys' killers. Why not the Omagh bombers as well?

Totally agree with you discussion leading to formal dialogue resulting in peaceful accords and agreements ending in lasting peace acceptable to all- But with the guns, bombs and threats removed from under the table first.

My 'rant' was a hope, a desire and a belief about somewhere I love passionately. The 'various NI towns' I 'rant'ed about aren't just towns. The locations mentioned the areas are where I have friends and family and the 'rant' was not designed to be geographically accurate even though it is.

Now Mini and aidanf, I believe Wholigan's notice to posters was attack the message NOT the messenger.


Scenic Route
16th May 2005, 16:15
1. I believe the words used were "they haven't gone away y'know" - not "we haven't gone away.....". It's a small but significant difference. This was said over five years ago BTW in response to heckling.


It was used most recently by a UUP representitive who uttered said phrase after being asked if the UUP was obsolete since returning to westminster with only one seat to sit on. Couldn't tell you his name but he was in the autumn of his life with white hair (not a critism, just an observation):ooh:


16th May 2005, 17:40
Family arguments are often the worst and bloody.
The four grandsons of a very famous Queen, some of who were brothers I am told had their countrymen fight a war to end all wars. Although many people died in what was at that time a great conflict ,war continues all around the world and continues to make a lot of people very rich and others sad.
If people choose to use shallow history as a reason to fight each other they will lose the great joy that peace between peoples can bring .
There is more joy in heaven at one sinner repenting than ninety nine rightious entering the gates.
Peace will come to those who seek it.

Flying Lawyer
18th May 2005, 11:31
Curious Pax
Yes - and, sadly, the answer seems to be 'Not much in the foreseeable future'. To the best of my recollection, Paisley hasn't supported a single peace initiative.

There's an old saying that 'We get the politicians we deserve.'
Well, the majority of Unionists voters wanted an extremist hate-filled bigot to lead them, and they've got him. Maybe they'll get what they deserve? It's only my concern for the minority in NI that stops me saying I hope they do.

I hate to think what would happen if extremist Republicans followed the example of the extremist Unionists and replaced Adams with their own 'No Compromise' leader.

Interesting posts - and, despite great provocation, very well argued if I may say so. :ok:

18th May 2005, 12:34
Well Flying Lawyer

Paisley hasn't supported any peace initiatives probably because the IRA hasn't disarmed. Those are not only his terms but they are the terms of his electors. The stalemate ,unfortunately, will continue as long as both camps are rife with intransigence. However one camp has guns under the negotiating table, the other camp is calling for their removal. What worries me is that someone of such legal standing cannot agree with such reasoning.

As for 'swapping leadership styles' why not go all the way and swap M.O's of their respective terrorist armies? Then compare body counts.

As you've stated and shown your true colours in the process, your "...concern for the minority..." is not concern for the entire population. I find that deeply worrying. In addition you seem to be at odds with decision based upon the views and hopes of a democratic majority, therefore democracy itself. Does it work differently with the judicial system in a court of law? Imagine a jury comes back 10-2 in favour of the defendant but you don't like their decision, would you overrule it? That is merely another topic for debate over a pint in a pub.

Frighteningly you are also of the view that it is acceptable for one party to 'negotiate' while holding a loaded gun at the head of another party.And you call yourself a man of law?

After reading what you've written here and other places,I hope and pray you never represent me in any court, Sunshine.


18th May 2005, 13:28
Hi folks, not been around for a while but I read this thread and can't help but add my 2p worth. As one who comes from a republican family and has friends who are ex IRA members this is something close to my heart. Anyway here goes

As most people may know, the IRA are split in two, Republicans and Provisionals, actually the provisionals or provos are a breakaway orginisation from the original IRA following much disagreement on political policies at a meeting at Dublin in 1969. The provos adopted a marxist socialist principle whilst the republicans remain a conservative catholic orginisation. Both share the common objective of freeing the north from British rule. The provos did a good job in the 70's and 80's establishing equality and civil rights for catholics in the north and providing protection from loyalist attacks which were usually as a result of civil rights marches. Originally the British army were drafted in to provide protection to catholics and were actually welcomed by the IRA and the catholic comunity. Most attacks on catholics and nationalists were as a result of civil rights marches or protests against loyalist orange marches. The stormont governtment of the time didn't like the increasing power being gained by the IRA and nationalists and nor did much of the protestant and loyalist community who felt let down by stormont and the British army. The response to this was the creation of the UVF to protect loyalists and loyalist communities from catholic and IRA attacks. Direct rule by Westminister was then introduced by Harold Wilson as the stormont government was on it's knees and felt it could no longer cope. This was seen as a victory for the IRA and the British army was then ordered to 'keep them at bay'. This involved blockades in catholic and nationalist areas and raing of houses suspected to be holding IRA members. This time the nationalist community felt betrayed by the army and British government and huge support grew for the IRA as the feeling of oppression grew. The attacks on British soldiers and the bombing campaign then began. By this time internment without trial for suspected IRA members had been introduced which further boosted feelings of oppression amongst republicans and nationalists. Attacks on the RUC were also common years earlier as they had used force to try to prevent civil rights marches in Derry and Belfast and worked alongside the British army in arresting suspected IRA members. There were many attempts over the years, including secret contacts and meetings by the IRA with the British government to try to come to a peace agreement. Unforunately something always happened to make it unfeesable. Lets just hope the current peace process continues to last.

This is a very brief history of the provos just to clear a few things up with some people on here who seem to display the typical 'they're terrorist scum, kill them all', knee jerk reaction. In this day and age they are an outdated orginisation who have served the most part of their purpose. Many of them who call themselves IRA members are nothing but thugs and terrorist scum who seem hell bent on wreaking havoc and stirring up trouble and in that respect they are no better than Paisley and his band of yobs. Most ex IRA members I know agree on this point and are disgusted that these people call themselves republicans and even more so that Sinn Fein associate themselves with them. The way forward is diplomacy but unfortunately things look set to get worse again.

Flying Lawyer
18th May 2005, 15:12
Dear me, Pontious, you do seem to have great difficulty grasping the concept of playing the ball instead of attacking the player.

No, I don't agree with Paisley's reasoning.
In an ideal world I would, but if it was an ideal world there wouldn't be the problem. Peaceful settlements have been achieved in other parts of the world by by talks and diplomacy, without decommissioning and even without renouncing the use of force.
Nor do I believe it is Paisley's reasoning.
In my view, Paisley hasn't supported any peace initiatives because he doesn't want peace. He's made his entire career and 'name' out of exploiting and stirring the religious and political divisions in Northern Ireland. He controls a 'church' which he created and which is founded on anti-Catholic teaching, and controls a party which (I think) he also founded.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think two of his sons are now in the family business - one in the Paisley 'church' and one in the Paisley DUP. Big Ian has fed the needs of his enormous ego extremely well but, I have no doubt whatsoever, he's indirectly caused loss of lives in the process.
Perhaps I'm biased. I'm a Protestant and, like any decent Protestant, I cringe when Paisley uses the term - but not half as much as I cringe when he claims to be a Christian.

I didn't advocate "swapping leadership styles". :confused:
Far from wanting to go 'all the way', I expressed concern about the consequences if the Republican side was to follow the unionists' example. I hope they don't.

Shown my true colours in the process. :confused:
In the process? Even if the title I chose for this thread didn’t give you a clue, I'm surprised my views weren't clear from my previous posts.

I expressed concern for the minority because they didn’t vote for Paisley's DUP - whether because they are moderate Unionists, Republicans or just fed up of extremists causing trouble and want to get on with their lives peacefully.
However, on reflection, my comment about those who did vote DUP wasn't very charitable. You're right. With Paisley in such a powerful position, I should be concerned for the entire population, whether or not they gave him their support in the election.

”You seem to be at odds with decision based upon the views and hopes of a democratic majority, therefore democracy itself.”
That’s a curious proposition. :confused:
So it's at odds with democracy to suggest that a democratic majority have made the wrong choice?
Please forgive me for not responding to your ‘over-ruling a jury’ analogy, but I don’t understand it. I haven’t suggested that the democratic decision which has given power to the exremist DUP should be over-ruled.

Flying Lawyer ( or “Sunshine” if you prefer.)

I’m naturally terribly upset that you hope and pray I never represent you in any court.
My goodness, you certainly know how to wound.
I’ll do my best to cope with that disappointment but it’s not going to be easy.

18th May 2005, 16:53
I will repeat a part of an earlier post, Paisley is a bigot when it comes to his politics. However, as the local MP he will represent all religions if they come to him with a problem. My wifes (catholic) family think he is a madman, but they like him as an MP!! He gets things done!
He is also Democratically elected...............

Flying Lawyer
18th May 2005, 17:18
I've heard that too.

I've also been told, by a colleague who was at school with one of his sons and often visited the Paisley home, that he's very pleasant company in a social setting.
That said, I've defended quite a few seriously bad people whom I've found to be very pleasant. Of course, when I met them, they weren't 'at work'.

mr Q
19th May 2005, 11:46
Loyalists warn of new march tensions
By Barry McCaffrey
(Irish News 19/5/05

A senior loyalist last night warned that relations between the PSNI and loyal orders at a Belfast interface are at an all-time low, as tensions rise ahead of the marching season.

It follows a decision to charge two senior Orangemen over the playing of The Sash outside a Catholic Church in east Belfast and other Parades Commission breaches during a July 12 march last year.

Senior sources in the Orange Order have also raised concerns about a new law which means it will be legally responsible for the actions of marchers this summer.

Security sources are concerned that increased tensions could spill over into serious street violence similar to that witnessed in east Belfast during 2002 and 2003.
The disturbances included gun attacks from loyalist and republican paramilitaries and Catholic and Protestant homes coming under sectarian attack.

Loyalist Commission chairman Mervyn Gibson last night claimed relations between the order and the PSNI had hit “rock bottom”.

Two senior Orangemen have been charged with allowing the playing of The Sash outside St Matthew’s Catholic Church on the Newtownards Road last July, failing to obey police parade instructions and illegally stopping the parade for an hour along the route.

It is understood Orangemen refused to join a recent meeting with PSNI chiefs because of the presence of a senior police officer they blame for the charges.

Tensions could be further increased as more Orangemen are expected to be charged for their part in two illegal parades in east Belfast earlier this year.

Warning of a deteriorating relationship with the PSNI in the area, Mr Gibson said: “It is fair to say that relations are currently at an all-time low. Protestants have been treated in a disgraceful way over this issue.
“The PSNI have shown no common sense over this issue and that has been compounded by the stupidity of the Parades Commission.”

Jim Wilson, chairman of the Lower Newtownards Road Residents Association, claimed loyalists felt “betrayed” by the PSNI and the Parades Commission.
“The community that I represent is not going to take this lying down,” he said.
“We have listened to The Sash being played on the Newtownards Road for more than 100 years and we are not going to let the Parades Commission or PSNI rob us of our culture.
“The nationalists stood up when they were denied civil rights in the 1960s. Now the shoe is on the other foot.”

A police spokeswoman last night defended the PSNI’s role in overseeing east Belfast parades.
“The police’s role is to enforce decisions made by the Parades Commission and where breaches take place then report the matter to the commission.”


13th Sep 2005, 23:24
Yes Lying Flaw-yer

You also appear equally unable to grasp the concepts of justice on democracy but then again, what can one expect from a lawyer? But what I predicted was going to happen is that poor unfortunate corner of the UK is starting to happen.


14th Sep 2005, 00:35
I've heard that too.

I've also been told, by a colleague who was at school with one of his sons and often visited the Paisley home, that he's very pleasant company in a social setting.
That said, I've defended quite a few seriously bad people whom I've found to be very pleasant. Of course, when I met them, they weren't 'at work'. Yes FL, I think that somewhere in the ranks of the DUP there's a wee man employed solely to invent heart-warming stories of Ian Paisleys supposed munificence toward the gutter born mass of heathen Taigs.

And we is shore mighty gratefulmassa, yes massa, we is. :yuk:

I think the comments of Lady Sylvia Hermon are more telling - the sole Ulster Unionist MP re-elected in the recent rout by Paisleys DUP.
When asked during post election interviews how she would get on with having to deal with Big Ian in the new political landscape she responded that she had worked happily with Adams and the Sinn Fein members in the last administration, but had adamantly refused to meet with Paisley. When pressed she admitted that she had indeed shaken hands with Adams, but had refused to touch the hand of Paisley or Robinson, much less sit in the same room as them.

For every heart-warming Paisley anecdote you have, I can give you one which shows him for what he is - a Racist, Sectarian, Homophobic Bigot, a Rabble Rouser and murderer by proxy.

Here's a good one for starters.

This is a true story about Ian Paisley and the media: I was there. In Armagh in late November 1968, Paisley and a counter-demonstration stopped a civil rights March getting in to the centre of Armagh from the Moy Road where it formed up. The march broke up quietly at the police lines below the Shambles, and then Paisley held a Prayer Rally in Market Square. There were a couple of thousand supporters and Martin Bell was there with a camera crew. Paisley said: "There is a man in this square today who is no friend of the Protestant and Loyalist people of Ulster. That man is Martin Bell of the BBC, or the PBC as I call it - the Papish Broadcasting Corporation. [Applause]Now I am not suggesting that any man here should offer violence to Martin Bell of the PBC, but [he paused and then slowly pointed] he's standing over there in a sheepskin jacket."
After Bell had got a few digs, he said: "Now, brethren, let us bow our heads in a silent prayer for deliverance from our foes."