CAA American Validations

[Vlamgat]

Ladies and Gentleman

I would very much like someone to clear up my questions regarding Validations of American Licenses onto South African aircraft, as I believe that With an American Validation in S.A they can fly ANY aircraft up to 5700kg, without a twin rating or turbine rating!

Can anyone please clear up this mess for me and also what would be the insurance Jargon surrounding this mess should an accident occur??

Very Confused

Thanks

Aginnintonnixadaykeepsadoctaaway!!

:sad:

[raytheon_aircraft]

i'm not to sure that i'm following your question to well.

all i know is if you got a south african Commercial license you entitled to fly aircraft up to the weight of 5700kg's as PIC. anything above that weight you will not be allowed to fly as PIC but you may fly it with an APTL pilot as first officer.

hope this helps. :ok: :confused:

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Not to mention that you'd have to have a conversion to type before flying said aircraft. If you've flown the aircraft on the US register before, it'll be included in the types you may fly on the SA register, but you can't fly a South African registered type you haven't flown before without the appropriate conversion. I suppose it's to stop people getting into light piston types without reading the manuals (at least) and destroying the aircraft in an accident because they didn't know how to use the emergency gear extension/crossfeed/relight.

AFAIK all turbine types require an endorsement on your licence.

[Exhaust Manifold]

If you get a validation to a SA licence, you can only fly aircraft that you are already rated on in America. If you want to do any conversions you will have to do them in America as you can't do it on SA registered aircraft.

With a conversion, on the other hand, you can use any SA registered aircraft.

With a comm you can fly all aircraft up to 5 700 kg as PIC, regardless of whether turbine or multi-engine, as long as you have a valid rating. :ok:

[VanDriver2003]

Exhaust Manifold :

"If you get a validation to a SA licence, you can only fly aircraft that you are already rated on in America."

Hi Guys. This is something that has been bugging me for a while. I know some guys with FAA licences with no rating on a particular aircraft, and they are flying as F/O. They only have validation, but no type rating at all. Not even in the US of A.

The excuse they use is that the aircraft is a single crew A/C and it is a single crew operation. But they still fly leg for leg without a type rating.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

I reckon it would be an interesting experience explaining the hours logged without the endorsement on the licence.

[B Sousa]

"Hi Guys. This is something that has been bugging me for a while. I know some guys with FAA licences with no rating on a particular aircraft, and they are flying as F/O. They only have validation, but no type rating at all. Not even in the US of A."

This is something that a lot of folks dont understand. In the US a type rating is only required on aircraft over 12500lbs gross wt.
That is to say that if I fly a Cessna 210 it wont show on my license. The only way one would know Im "rated" in the aircraft is by being signed off in my logbook.
Helicopters are also the same. There is no special endorsement for multi engine helicopters, only a sign off of the particular machine and of course the time logged in the book..
Heres another one for you. Say I fly a Cessna 337 (pushpull) but no other multi engine aircraft. As its a twin I have to be typed rated and it shows on the license as Multi-Engine center line thrust. Of course if I was multi-engine rated that that would not be necessary and only signed off in the logbook..
I think that is now changed and one is required to get a multi engine rating but it used to be a novelty as one could only fly the 337 if so endorsed.
Another one for you. I do remember a very rich guy who had his own B707. His girlfriend learned to fly in the thing so she ended up with a PPL (MEL)and type rated in the B707. Not flying for hire, nothing more required....Instrument rating not necessary if she flew VFR. No doubt there were qualified guys there at all times, but it was legal.
When it comes to the Heavies 12,500 and up one has to have a type rating ON the license to fly if the seat he is occupying requires a rated pilot. So for someone to fly right seat in a B737 its going to have to be on his FAA license........Anything different is a no no??
Comments??

[Vlamgat]

Yah!! You see this is exactly what I'm getting at!! As far as I have it an American can do the SA validation and then according to his own license he can do the validation on lets say A PC 12 and then go on to fly 1900's until the insurance requirements are met for that specific aircraft and then flying captain on it without having to do a proper conversion onto the type as the american license does not specify any types.

I'd like to know then if he bends the 1900 what the insurance are going to say about this whole mess. I think there's a lot of people turning a blind eye on this subject and furher to this there's a lot of less experienced foreigners flying ZS- aircraft without the necessary experience!!

Less jobs for our boy'tjies!!

Regards

Aginnintonnixadaykeepsadoctaaway!!!

[Exhaust Manifold]

Ja, this is all a bit of a mess. You can ask CAA but i don't think you'll get much help, they don't know their :mad: ss from a kettle!!

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Usual reaction from CAA is to tell you to look it up yourself (So much for being an aid to aviation.:rolleyes: ).

Having done so, you find an ambiguous statement and ask for clarification. This is where the wheels come off.....:(

[B Sousa]

Flaming Butt
Whoa...wait a minute you say fly a PC-12 and then go into B1900s.......
Again. PC-12 single engine below 12,500 lbs?? requires no endorsement on an FAA Liacense. but in the Pilots logbook will somewhewre show a signoff on the Aircraft and also a signoff for Complex and Turbine Aircraft. So the Pilot will have at least Single Engine Land on his license. B1900 will require Multi-engine land on his license and if its above 12,500 Max Gross weight?? will require a type rating. If not the same applies, endorsement in the logbook.
When questioned on this by an employer, one using an FAA license will be required to Produce his license, medical and logbook with proper endorsement.
A proper endorsement will not be his buddys initial, it will have the date, CFI name and CFI License number which can be verified.
As to the above aircraft Im not familiar with the weights but am guessing that the PC-12 is light and the B1900 may be close to if not over 12500lbs. It makes a difference.
As to Insurance Im sure Employers have each Pilot fill out proper forms with License, Ratings, and Hours. If they dont verify it, thats their Bad.
I dont think your going to find many Americans stealing jobs in SA. Too many requirements and not much money.
Your licensing structure is tied to the Brits methods which are pretty archaic, also connected to your wallets which hurts even more. I have spent more in validations in SA than I have spent in 35 flying years with the FAA in the states.
We pay taxes here to cover all that stuff. It seems you just pay taxes to buy MBZs for the "folks"
And no we are not perfect...............

[Exhaust Manifold]

This is all blerrie confusing :confused: !!

[B Sousa]

EM.
Its not a kettle either , its a large Potjie Pot.........
What specifically dont you understand, as to FAA maybe I can help. CAA is beyond help........

[Exhaust Manifold]

Now do the FAA aircraft ratings work the same as SA ratings? And if I wanted to do a conversion from my SA licence to an FAA licence what would I have to do?

[B Sousa]

OK...Long story
Im gonna give you the short version unless you email me with a phone number in which case I can clear most of this over the phone..................
Anyway
First thing you have to do is to get into the states.. That has not been easy lately for some of my paleface friends although Im sure Aristide or Imbecki could visit anytime.......enough on that.
Then go into any FAA FSDO and they should issue you a PPL to the extent that your Current South African license shows. That is to say if you are Multi Engine Instrument you will get a PPL Multi-engine Instrument. Anything above PPL requires a written and checkride, but at least its easy and also its FREE. http://www.landings.com/_landings/pages/regulations.html
This site can help a bit with the regs. Part 61 is where you should start.
Also Im not familiar with a lot of the changes as what one would have to do to train in the states and upgrade to say ATP. I do know there are some glitches thrown in by Immigration to keep out the unwanted folks (white faces) but I can find out if your serious and need to know.
I will give you a couple websites that you can play with for further information.
www.faa.gov
http://www.immigration-bureau.org/

[Vlamgat]

Mr Sousa

Thanks for clearing this up for me!! Unfortunately there will now be a few young gentleman who shortly will no longer be doing what they are presently doing. (the wrong thing).

From now on I'll make sure that my company knows who drives their aeries without the proper paper work!!

Regards

Aginnintonnixadaykeepsadoctaaway!!

[B Sousa]

Flamer
Sounds like someone has been pulling the wool over someones eyes based on your last comment. It seem not unusual for South African Aviation.......

[TooBadSoSad]

Before you go out and cause a whole bunch of trouble, make sure you have your facts correct. The SACAA will generally issue a validation for foreign licensed pilots to operate ZS registered aircraft outside of the SA border. Only ferry flights in or out of the country are permitted. Additionally, as B Sousa stated, there is no requirement to have type ratings on any aircraft below 12,500 lbs on a US license. One must just have the systems signed off. It is perfectly legal to hop into a Twin Otter or BE90 or similiar in the USA with no time on type and fly off into the blue yonder. The FAA probably banks on common sense and insurance restrictions would cause most pilots to get a proper conversion.

[Vlamgat]

Sir TOOBADSOSAD.

No worries mate I have it under control, however thanks for the caution I will handle the Situation rather delicately!!

Regards
Aginnintonnixadaykeepsadoctaaway

[Whenwe]

What is the situation with a FAA ATP, type rated and a SA validation working for a SA company when operating a Part 121 company and does all the things that the 121 regs require ,such IF renewals currency checks etc.
Does these currency checks keep the FAA licence valid?
Apart from the medical the FAA licence requires currency checks. Are the SA tests valid?

[B Sousa]

toobadsosad.
My validation is for flying ZS/ZU aircraft anywhere. In or out of SA.
At one time for ferry purposes I did have a validation for outside SA.
I had to do the Air Law Exam , that was the difference. As I always say it was so much fun I did it twice........
As to hopping into a Twin Otter etc, yes that can be done but your FAA license will at least indicate Multi-Engine Land.
If you were questioned by the FAA they would want to see not only your license but the endorsement in your logbook, denoting a checkout and flight time to show currency. Currency being three take-offs and three landings within 90 days. I also think there has to be an hours flight time. Usually they wont bother as you mentioned.
Im too lazy to look up. the stuff, its in the FARs at the website I posted......
By the way O flaming one, I will be over in SA around June or July if you want a copy of the 2005 FAR/AIM. I think they are around R120.

[Putcodrvr]

Here is where the hot gen is for validations.

http://www.caa.co.za/Public/FAQ/Validation%20of%20Licence%2030.7AIC.html

On top of this you have to supply certified copies of your Licence;Medical;Logbook and a Letter from the FAA Certifying the licence details. Although CAA have now realised that the FAA will not give this letter. On enquirey they refer you to the website where FAA licenses can be verified!
For the first validation, you have to write Air Law and Procedures (For IR validation. Procedures only for VFR with night rating) plus do a Flight test and a Radio licence.
Then for renewal (normally co-incides with FAA Medical and IR renewal dates) you have to submit ALL the paperwork again!! CAA do not keep a file on each pilot licence that is validated!!??
BTW there is no more Outside Borders or Inside SA Validation.
Beentheredunnitgotthe****swithcaa

[Beta Light]

Look like Putco have more updated gen. then me, but one way to preserve jobs for local boys on ZS aircraft is to go the Labour dept. way.
We had similar problems, and according to our lawyers at the time C.A.A. can only issue validations if cleared by Labour Dept. if there are no S.A. rated pilots avail.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

If other countries reciprocate, the labour market will be flooded with returning SA expats from Cathay, Emirates and everywhere else. Reserving jobs for local pilots will backfire in an ugly way, making things even more difficult than they are now.

Small minds again....:rolleyes:

[Beta Light]

Solid Rust, that is how it is, everywhere. Do you think Emirates, Mauritius, Cathay etc. take expats because thety want to?? These guys cost them big bucks as expats, your resident visa is only good as long as you have a job. Wives not allowed to work. Only reason these guys got the job is because there are no locals avail for the job.

Have you ever tryed to find work in the E.U? Try to find a flying position in Aus.. not as long as one Aussie is out of work, and rightly so.

Closed mind again....

[Solid Rust Twotter]

The small minds comment refers to the shortsightedness of the authorities trying to reserve jobs so your closed minds comment was uncalled for. If there's any closed minds around here I reckon they're closer to home than you think. If local pilots can do the job, I don't think any local operator would shoot himself in the foot by employing expats unless the agreement is to allow them to fly for free, thus saving money. Somehow, I don't think that's a common reason. Unfortunately, the 200hr comm holder just out of 43 gets unhappy because he believes the left seat on that KA200 belongs to him. Insurance companies have minimum requirements and if local pilots don't meet them, expats may be the answer.

There are a number of South Africans working in Oz so not sure what you mean. Ryanair in the EU is infested with SA pilots. Once again, they met the requirements. No one would survive in business by employing lesser qualified people. It's the old "best man for the job" story and it makes sense. Taking on expats with lesser qualifications would just be stupid and ultimately self defeating.

By reserving jobs for SA pilots, a perception may be generated that affects those of us working abroad and a tit for tat scenario may develop. This would be very unhealthy for SA aviation as we have people working in just about every country on the planet. If they returned en masse there would be chaos.

I reiterate my point that closing the door on foreign pilots would not be a wise move by the powers that be in that all levels will suffer for it, even the training institutions who keep their heads above water training foreign students. Less students = less instructors = more pilots out looking for work.

I don't believe there's any merit in just flat out closing the door on foreign pilots, many of whom trained in SA and have SA qualifications. There's enough for everyone but we have to work for it. Rather direct your ire toward a certain cadet scheme which is tying up jobs in small companies that the hard working self funded comm pilots have no chance at getting.

[B Sousa]

Putco driver has his finger on the pulse. It is a major pain in the ass and has to be done every time your FAA medical expires......And yes it costs money every time........
He brings up one other item a Radio License. One of the most Archaic items in Avaition. I still have one from the states, but they are not used anymore. The airways there are free and the Aircraft contains a license, thats all that is necessary. Any country who requires Pilots to have a Radio License do it for one Reason..........$$$Money$$$. When you broadcast, you do it using the Aircraft number, not your name........!!!
As I only fly a little bit in SA sometimes, so its not a problem. But for anyone serious, you might as well dig in and get an SA License.
ON the other side of the coin for those reading the Huey thread and what folks seem to be getting away with, why worry. Whos going to do squat if you dont get a validation. Comments??

By the way PD your website didnt fly, is it my computer?? I realiaze, that you dont look like you give....................ha ha

[Putcodrvr]

Bert. :} U got it. Kevin Bloody Wilson is the man!
Its the SACAA website. On the front page there's a link on the procedures and regs according AIC 30.7. Validations of Foreign licences