My guess about what QF told the ALAEA

[Sunfish]

After reading numbskulls post, whats the betting that QF's major goal for this EBA is a "transmission of Business " Clause.

Whats the betting that the blowtorch they are applying to the Executives backside is about the movement of maintenance overseas and the threatened demise of the ALAEA itself?

Shock! Horror! Well if that happened there would be no need for an ALAEA Executive would there?

[numbskull]

Apparently QF and the union have come to an agreement.The transmission of business clause is rumoured to have stayed and the standard 3% is also there. What else is in there is anyones guess!!

All is going to be revealed next week but the OT bans have been removed until there is a vote to accept it.

I think the agreement will be very hard for people to accept if that clause remains unless they provide some very big sweeteners(which I can't see them doing either).

The legal ramifications of any one clause are hard to understand unless you are a very good lawyer but the way I see it is that the only reason they would insist on it is to hive off engineering.

Maintenance will be carried out by the cheapest available tender.

Good luck everyone!!

[Sunfish]

The legal ramifications Numbskull, are that Qantas is no longer liable for long service leave, sick leave, redundancy or any previously agreed employee benefits because the business has been transferred to a new owner who wears these costs.

In other words, its not as if Qantas made you redundant or anything and you were reemployed by the other business, one day you work for Qf the next day you work for ????

[Son of Brake Boy]

Official O/T bans have been lifted, however the status quo remains as it did before the ALAEA executive decided to make official what its members had been doing for months.

Most departments are in agreeance that until they actually know what the negotiating comittee has accepted the O/T bans will stay in place unofficially.

There is a real problem amongst the guys surrounding the secretive nature of the negotiating comittee. Not even ALAEA executive members outside the comittee have been told whats in the agreement.

Beyond me what its all about. We're going to see it eventually. If the offer from the company validates an 'Agreement in Principle' surely the comittee would be proud of their achievement and thus want the members to hear about it ASAP.

Maintain the Rage

[Orville]

Watch to Cairns being the first to go, could this be part of the in principal agreement, the sacrificial lamb so the rest live a little longer???????

[sport]

Here is a reply that Trustee 1 gave on the ALAEA forum

While I cannot relate specifics of the "In Principal Agreement" to you until after it has been endorsed by the wider Federal Executive the negotiating committee is confident that the deal that has been struck protects the interests of the members in a diverse range of location

In diverse range of locations, but not all locations, I think you could be right Orville some one is about to be cut loose.

He also makes a statement that me thinks, they are proud of their achievement

result of the achievement of an "In Principal Agreement".

But then the members will decide... won't they!!

Do you accept gold coins or continue to be a union and support your brothers.

[numbskull]

I also heard a rumour about Cairns as well.

It fits in with the scenario. Cairns will look after all Australian Airlines aircraft as well as QF.

I don't care what guarantees the company or the union give. If the transmission of business clause is in there it's for one reason only- to spin off engineering.

[right wing]

Let the paranoia begin!!! Let it begin and continue to rot your nuts off, idiots.

[INCOGNIT0]

Well Sport ,for someone who didn't give a sh!t and quote" they should take their problems to their new forum and leave us alone" you are seeming to be taking an obtrusive interest in the happenings of the engineers and the ALAEA,care to enlighten or are you just being a nosey antagonist again.

[sport]

I will always be interested in the back door dealings of any company that suggests and profits on its commitment to being a PROUD AUSTRALIAN so what ever my affiliations may be I will always be looking over your shoulder.

[Crystal Marina]

Here Here Right Wing I'm with you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

These guys have no idea!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:ok: ;)

[rudderless1]

Wrong wing, maybe the workers have seen it all to many times before. Hard to blame them for being pessimistic considering the results of these same chaps on previous EBA Committee's.

The stupid thing is the company may win their EBA but is certainly destroying any goodwill. You know, all those extras you can't put a dollar value on.

Great story on Catalyst the other night about psychopaths, aparently one in ten managers are one. They acheive their goals at all costs, have no empathy for their workers, and claim other peoples ideas as their own.

www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/s1360571.htm

[Captain.Q]

Dixon would make an excellent case study!!

[fordran]

Why won't the ALAEA tell us what they've agreed to. Cairns may be in the firing line but we don't feel to secure here in Adl. The ALAEA has a history of cutting loose the minority. We here that they've agreed to cut loose Adl, Cns, Drw and smaller bases to protect Perth Bne Syd and Mel.

Transmission of business included but only for new employees. No union has agreed to this yet and they are looking for suckers. ALAEA did us over with an 18 month wages freeze only to watch every other union walk in and accept less.

[vortsa]

Sport If nothing else eventuates from the comments made we have two new entrants to this forum as a result ,Right Wing andRudderless 1 from their user names they are obviously from the ASN.

But any romours that are starting to perpetuate and do the rounds are at the feet of the ASN. Special meetings or even internet conferencing has been used by them before, the members are waiting and you want more time....WHY.

The longer we wait the more speculation is going to happen, be more underdstanding to the needs of the members and stop being difficult.

[Mr Qantas]

You wayne kerrs stop pumping the hystaria into the troops with rumor and inuendo about a transision clause there is no such thing. I hope you all apolagise to the senior officials when you see them next they have worked extremely hard to win us the best deal for 10 years. Its a crefdit to there proffessionalism and pacience. The level headed approach now what do you want to complain about you getting -

3 X 3
level 14 from 1 Jan 2007
5%extra quota all grades
new entry level 4
1 point each year for Jetsmart
access to first class for lame staff

the only "pain" is the voluntery ot banking in heavy areas.

Well done ALAEA and thank you Qantas. Australia Premier airline.

[Mr Chairman]

At this time, 3% per year is simply not good enough with the prices of property at an all time high and inflation running at about 4.5%. Three percent will not even allow you to thread water it will slowly allow you and your wage level to sink below the surface.
However it depends on the sweetener which we all heard about but at this stage it seems to be a big secret only privey to the select few. An extra level (level 14) will be of no value to the vast majority of people. Five percent extra space in the quotas, again not much good when your grade 3. Entry level gone from level 3 to 4, some good for people getting a first licence but not much good for every body else. ( level 3 was always an embarassment ) One point per year for Jetsmart, not bad but for how many years, 1, 2 , 3 ???. First class travel for LAMEs , sounds good but QF only flys First class on a minimum of flights so benefits would be little plus the majority of LAMEs on the lower grades would not be able to afford the staff travel prices.
I haven't seen the full agreement (who has) but already I would advise a large No vote unless the sweetener is alot sweeter than the above.

[INCOGNIT0]

extra level (level 14) will be of no value to the vast majority of people
but it will benefit the likes of Mr Q and his cronies,no wonder the cheering from his corner,don't sell out for something that will only benefit the Hierarchy

[Crystal Marina]

Well Mr Qantas now I am sure that you are full of something that has a very unpleasant smell. You do not know of what you speak but a merely a parrot that repeats what you are fed. It is obvious to me you are fed that which is normally reserved for mushrooms.

As for the rest of you, if it were not for the ALAEA most of you would not have been afforded pay rises well above 40% over the last 7 years. If anyone doubts me, do your figures. In fact most LAME's have enjoyed on average, a pay increase of almost 6% per annum since the inception of the graded pay structure on the 16th August 1997. Go out side to the real world and ask who has been afforded pay rises of this magnitude?????????

Some 20 years ago I heard an ex ALAEA official who had jumped the fence to the companys' side refer to LAME's as " Overpaid Prima Madonas". Maybe he was right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am pleased to see that of the 1800 odd members in Qantas there are only a few Knuckle Heads that can't be pleased.

Rot your nut off guys!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:ok:

[Kanga767]

Its 'Prima Donna', unless we're on a date!

K

[JETTRONIC]

Grade 14:yuk: What about us mech poor folk down the bottom end of the pay scale. Really going to make :mad:ck all diff to me. One word of advise MR Qantas do not bite the had that feeds you, cause your about to get slapped with the other.

still pissed off :*

[Turbo 5B]

To Crystal Marina. Regarding figures, I can tell you that the difference between a top level mechanical AME and a level 3 LAME is still about the same as it was 10 years ago. So as for your 40% increase stats, I believe they are being somewhat distorted to suit your case.

[Crystal Marina]

Turbo 5B,
I couldn't agree with you more on the difference between a top level AME and a level 3 LAME. What you must consider though is that while a top level AME has reached the pinnacle of his earning capacity the LAME is only at the begining of his earning capacity, with the possibility of increasing his wage by over $700.00 per week.

As for my figures, I do apologise, I was 1.26% out in my calculations. A LAME who entered the graded pay structure as a level 3 in August 1997 on $800.00 per week would have progressed to a level 5 LAME in August 2002 on $1046.20 per week without any training. An increase of 30.77% in 5 years or 6.2% average per year. That same level 5 LAME today is on $1109.90 per week, an increase of 38.74% still with no training. If you are trying to work out how he moves 2 grades in 5 years don't forget the 3 points he was awarded in EBA 5.

Mustang Ranch, we all have to start at the bottom!!!!!!!!!!!!!:ok:

[Eimar Moron]

Around 6% increase per year only just keeps pace with inflation.

3% is going backwards fast.

66% was outrageous and greedy - but they took it anyway.

[rudderless1]

Crystal, you forgot once again those three points were a one off payment to those LAME'S employed with QANTAS at the time. New guys miss out, old guys from elsewhere miss out, any one leaving and coming back miss out. Its supposed to be recognised as a technology payment, not a bribe which it really was.

[Son of Brake Boy]

Crystal Marina

Perhaps you could consider the following in your calculations!

As a level 3 Mechanical LAME, lets say I first entered the new graded pay structure system in August '97. Now I either completed a MECHANICAL course and entered on the licence I was first issued, or more likely completed half a course (company or otherwise) and had only completed an Airframe or Engine component.

Now your example sites 'still with no training', so we'll say I only completed an Airframe course (still level 3!). What escapes a lot of people is that a level 3 payment is for a MECHANICAL licence, not an Airframeor Engine. QF have been nice enough to pay level 3 to first licence holders, however you still have to get 6 points to progress to level 4 (other compnent + 4 points).

So using this example....

August '97 - Level 3 attained

August '00 - With 3 service points AND 3 EBA points Level 4 attained

August '04 - With 4 more service points I finally reach Level 5

Just another spin on the figures.

Maintain the Rage

[Crystal Marina]

Son Of Brake Boy, My calculations were based on a dual category lame not single category lame as most lame's are dual category.:ok:

[willadvise]

CM your calculations are of simple rate and not the compounding rate. The compounding rate is

r=((1046.2/800))^(1/5)-1=5.5% over the 97-02 period.

For the period 97-05

r=((1109.9/800))^(1/8)-1=4.18%

[fordran]

Looks like they've made some sort of announcement

http://glsol.com/airboard/viewtopic.php?p=1498#1498


:yuk: :yuk: You must be kidding :yuk: :yuk:

[REALITY]

Can you fu***n belive this ALAEA fed exec?? or more specifically the EBA negotiating committee???

They did a great job.......they have managed to screw us all!!
Transmission of business still there, overtime banking still there, minor increase in quotas which is not an EBA item anyway. But they got the reduction in allowances to 80% removed....WOW. That will help out about 2% of the membership!

Don't forget the increase to confined space payment... up 2 cents, thats right 2 cents per hour! Don't spend it all at once!

When are these useless clowns going to wake up to themselves?
We were in the driving seat applying a small amount of pressure for a favourable outcome, only to have these useless pricks throw in the towell at the first round.

We need to pass the strong message to the exec that this EBA is unacceptable.

We need a change of the gaurd at Bexley.

[Mean, Nasty & Tired]

EBA VI all over again, our negotiating commitee has failed us

Are they in the company's pocket ?

[Son of Brake Boy]

OK. Enough is enough.

Let me be the first to say (not the first to think though)....

LETS GROUND 'EM!

They had their chance. We played their game. Now its our turn to call the shots.

Rolling stoppages to 'discuss' current issues, unannounced, minimum of 3 hours, and one port every day for one week.

They wont know where its coming from or what hit them.

Maintain the Rage

[sys 4]

first of all we need a motion at the first mass meeting A VOTE OF NO CONFIDENCE IN THE CURRENT ALAEA EXEC,this will send a clear message to the company that the alaea exec might be in your pockect but your work force isn't,once your aircraft are grounded you will have to come to the table with more than the **** that is currently there.

[Crystal Marina]

Transmission of Business is not part of the EBA offer, in fact the negotiating committee have gone one step further and secured a letter from the company stating they will honour the Transmission of business clause in the previous EBA.

The overtime bank is voluntary therefore take it or leave it. There are some of our members who have indicated a desire for an overtime bank.:ok:

[fordran]

What about the payrise Trustee. Why didn't you get us one of them? Has all our overtime bans been for fun?

[the mustang ranch]

crystal marina--
you seem to be a person close to the exec

there is alot speculation in this ebavii offer

what is it exactly or where can i view the document

[Crystal Marina]

The document is out in the workplace now. See one of your reps and they will be able to give you a copy.

I think it is important that when veiwing the document you bare in mind what is not in the document rather than what is in the document.

All of the company's nasty demands have been removed, such as compulsory overtime bank, flexible rostering of twentieth days, no payment of shift penalties whilst on course and increase of part timers.:ok:

[sys 4]

what is the % increase

[Redstone]

I'll give you one guess Sys 4.........

[The masked goatrider]

All of the company's nasty demands have been removed, such as compulsory overtime bank, flexible rostering of twentieth days, no payment of shift penalties whilst on course and increase of part timers.

Why do they need to increase the part time numbers in our eba agreements. The ALAEA authorised part timers in Perth despite an agreement restricting them from WA.

CM or SF as most of us know you, are you going to sell this eba based on what the company removed from their ambit claim? What about the increases we were seeking? When I think of the things that aren't included in the document I look at our eba log of claims and can honestly say that we have not got one single thing we asked for.

You and your senior officials are a pack of useless tools and we look forward to next July when you will be given the opportunity to meet some of your co-workers instead of perving up the dresses of the ALAEA female staff at the Bexley orifice.

[Turbo 5B]

Could someone , maybe Crystal Marika , tell me on which bit of the offer the bans were dropped. Was it for the generous 3%?
For the "Voluntary OT Bank"( How generous )?
The huge increase in quota numbers?
Jetsmart implementation? (notice that it wasn't mentioned).
Well done everyone. We've lost the momentum from the OT bans. For what? The Cr@p that most people expected the company to put on the table was left there and we took the bans off. The same cr@p that people said they weren't prepared to accept.
And the other big one...the ACTU phone poll. Apparently now the phone poll says that people aren't prepared to stand and fight the company on the EBA. Smells like the excuse they used after the survey last eba. People wanted to take action but they all specified different things therefore they weren't really serious about industrial action so lets just accept the cr@p thats on the table as we wont get a better offer.
I can't believe that they have the hide to try that one on us again.
Shame Shame Shame.
Come on untrustee1,(crystal marina?) what have you got to say about that.

[Crystal Marina]

Turbo 5B,

Lets get one thing straight. There is no relationship between myself and Trustee1 as you have suggested in the final sentence of your post.

I am sure the bans were droped for the entire package not any single item.

As for what the ACTU poll does or does not indicate I am sure that the exec have used it to the betterment of their membership.

As for the quotas I feel they are generous, by my calculations they open 13 Avionic and 33 Mechanical positions in each grade from 9 through to 13.

The overtime bank is voluntary so take it or leave it.

[fordran]

Preference for overtime will be given to those in the ot bank system. It’s not take it or leave it, it’s take it or get no overtime. Other areas will then be included under the HM umbrella. Don’t be fooled CM even us outstation guys can see it. HM lames don’t assume the line guys won’t reject this agreement along with you, there’s nothing in it for us and we don’t like what they’re doing to you. It is a crap deal designed to drive wedges between us. Let’s stand together as one.

[Eagleboy69]

Well Said Fordran,

That is exactly what we need, we all need to understand what the issues are as a whole and not let them break us up as a whole so as they can get their thin edges in.

[Crystal Marina]

Fordran,

I do agree that there is a possibility that one day other areas of engineering and maintenance may come under the heavy maintenance umbrella. If this was to happen then they would have to abide by the arrangements made for heavy maintenance.

You are right in saying that all LAME's should stick together with a common goal.

If this offer was to be rejected by the membership I think it would be a long hard fight with the company to get a better deal. How far this fight is pushed would depend on the intestinal fortitude of the membership. I think that all members should let the exec know where they stand on this subject. It is difficult to lead a fight without membership backing.:confused:

[rudderless1]

Harder without a leader CM, God know's the industrial mind and committee behind our EBA is somewhat lacking. Bring on the Professional Negotiator who will do what he is instructed.

A new negotiation team who will have general meetings to listen and inform, act when action is necessary and enspire confidence amongst the members.

The membership showed their support, the ALAEA has showed again they cannot lead effectively.

[Crystal Marina]

I note on the glsol site that some of our LAMES have inferior mathematical skills or perhaps they only interpret posting to their own liking.

With reference to the quota increases in theory 37 Avionic LAME's will progress to the next grade due to the quota increases. 0 Mechanical LAME's will progress due to the quota increases because, although there are vacancies at all levels between 9 and 13, there are no mechanical LAME's that qualify to progress to these levels.

[hangar 9]

Precisely the point trustee 1, 2200 qf lae's have sold themselves a lemon so that 37 avionics lae's can progress one extra grade. What part of it can't you understand, and we trust you to negotiate for us ???? not anymore buster.

[fordran]

If this offer was to be rejected by the membership I think it would be a long hard fight with the company to get a better deal.

The people negotiating for us have been spreading the same rubbish around Sydney, scaring the members, telling them they'll never do any better. Our own so called leaders are trying to twist our arms and convincing us that it wouldn't be worth fighting and it would be "a long hard fight".

It didn't take long to get them back to the table when the higher duty ban was here. Same day they wanted to meet us. Don't lie to the members CM - T1 whoever you want to be. Any real action would increase the offer very quickly and you know it.

[Eagleboy69]

CM,

Do not underestimate the groundswell of contempt for this draft

[sys 4]

Crystal Marina you are saying we should except an offer that looks after a few lames at the topp of the pay scale and forget everybody else,perhaps you are one of those at the top and have been promised an increase if this gets up,but i'm am not,i'm at the bottom where a grade 3 lame has gone up only 6% in 4 1/2 yrs (that's less than 1 1/2 % pa),how about we all stand side by side and take the company on and get a real deal for the members,not this rubbish that has been put up by QF.I think you would find that they would fold very quickly to our demands if the exec only had a back bone and started to stand up for all the members and not just a few at the top who have been promised increased levels,as everbody would have something to gain if the exec neg on everones behalf and not for just a few at the top,i think that would rally the troops to take the fight up to qantas(everyone gets something,not just you).

[The masked goatrider]

From the perspective of the Executive (most of them anyway) this battle will be won if the members accept the poor offer from Qf. They don't see the fight as one between the ALAEA and Qf. They may ultimately win this battle but ever time they burn their workmates they come closer to losing the war. When the war is over, then the members will be able to stand together and fight as one.

Another rumour being spread by the OBC is that SP and his mates are to blame for the poor performance of the negotiating team. Lets just get it straight. There are 6 Qantas Councillors on the Fed Exec. Only one of them has anything to do with the EBA. He is from Sydney. All the good blokes have been excluded but amazing the OBC are still trying to blame them for the failure of the EBA committee.

It's sort of like the Liberal gov that brings in a gst them blames Labour if it proves unsuccessful.

[Crystal Marina]

sys 4,

Believe me when I say that I gain nothing from this agreement except for the 3% pay rise. No progress in grade as I do not qualify. No benifit from the change in allowance conditions as I do no travelling duties.

In fact if I had a say in the matter I would be looking after the lower grade LAME's as opposed to the higher grade LAME's that are doing alright.

I agree that we should be standing side by side for a better deal but let us not overlook the consequences we may be confronted with. My concern is for the lower grade LAME's that may be supporting a wife and a couple of children that can ill afford to lose pay. What if the company decides to lockout all LAME's for a period of time to prove a point? What if we end up on the grass? The troops must be united and willing before we engage.:ok:

hangar 9 & fordran,

Lets get one thing straight. There is no relationship between me and trustee 1, OK.:ok:

hangar 9,

Secondly there are 1823 LAME\'s. 37 LAME\'s is nearly 8% of the Avionic LAME\'s. It is not the exec\'s fault if no Mechanical LAME\'s qualify to progress.

The masked goatrider,

Good rumour!

OBC??????????????


I only tell the truth!

[Turbo 5B]

I am a lower grade Lame with a wife and two kids. I can't afford not to fight this Eba. If more of a fight was put up in the last two Ebas I wouldn't be in the position that i am in at the moment.
I know that the argument was run that we only negotiate for the members we have now. The big problem with this philosophy is that soon there will be a lot of younger members that have been shafted by the encumbents. These blokes aren't happy with the "I'm all right Jack" attitude that has been our usual bargaining technique. If you shaft the blokes behind you they eventually become the majority and give you a good kick in the Ar$e.
The Eba offer on the table is specifically designed to split Line and Heavy. If we fall for it we are more stupid than we look.
As a lower grade Ame 6.5% over the last 4 years is an issue that needs to be adressed. The 1 year at level 3 before progression would have fixed that. It isn't in the document.
All I can say is please guys think of the future.
It is in our Hands.

p.s Trustee 1 of the ALAEA if you\'re reading this ... Go to your section and tell the members that Heavy Maintenance isn\'t happy with the deal. They are blissfully unaware of what is happening.
Is it deliberate?

[hangar 9]

It may be 8% of the avionics members but again you have shown yourself as one who manipulates facts to suit their cause. It is as I stated a small percentage of the voting members 2.1%

And the total membership is also one that changes when it suits your cause, past ballots that have included those who were not eligible to vote springs to mind. When will you ever get it right T1.

[sys 4]

got not believe my eyes today when i got to work,someone or the asn had put out a document asking people to sign it and return it to bexley indicating which way they will vote,so the exec can come up with an endorsement , found everone i could and discarded them,some people have a funny view of democracy.