Instruction or Charter Work?

[Alitalia]

Another question first, what is the deal with Ross Air contracts closing down and will another company buy the contract section out. Saw a King Air still in Ross Air colours now owned by NAC a couple days ago. I am in the process of acquiring my CPL and would like suggestions from pilots flying in SA and Africa on whether the best thing to do is start with instruction or do a King Air conversion and do charter?

[sky waiter]

Chances of you getting a king air job with a fresh comm are small to remote, most operations want around 1000hrs for insurance reasons, if you are lucky you can get a van rating and find work with around 300hrs, this is from my experience so maybe if you have contacts you might get lucky but then you sit right hand seat for a long time earning a pittance, rather spend the money on instructors rating, get the thousand hrs then do the contract thing, its a quicker route to getting captaincy on the B200 and a decent salary...

[Exhaust Manifold]

I must agree with sky waiter, the chances of getting a job straight out of comm with a B200 rating are very slim. Instruction is definately the way to go. And when you apply at a charter company the instructor rating will be a definite bonus. :ok:

[symbol]

I agree with you guys. Go the Instructors route, thats how I did it and it'll stand you in good stead later on when you get an Airline interview- you should be given extra points for your effort. Good luck.

[Alitalia]

Thanks for the replies. I'm not worried about the money I earn to start. Assuming I can get a charter job is instruction still the better option? What are the pros and cons?

[raytheon_aircraft]

believe me you won't get a job as a charter pilot straight out of a comm, most of these charter companies require a minimum of at least 500 - 800 hours total time with multi IF comm before they even think about looking at you. do yourself a favour and go the instrutor route. build up your hours and then look at a charter company at later stage. one only becomes marketable at about 1000 hours anyway. hope this helps :ok:

[sky waiter]

Mate if you can get a charter job then go that route, you will probably get more twin time than an instructor. But the instruction will help later if you are interested in being a training captain etc they do require a grII instructors rating so it will be beneficial to you. As Raytheon says though chances of you finding charter work is not great unless you go to namibia or botswana, the charter market in SA is dead... Regional airlines have taken there place... Not everyone can be an instructor, if you are worried about your temprement in the cockpit or your ability to teach then off too a foreign country it is. Believe me students are very testing and the only dangerous goods you will caryy flying boeing cherokees!!! :uhoh: :ok: :E

[Jelly Doughnut]

Alitalia

Do both!

All forms of flying will teach you something and airlines look for well-rounded individuals. Instruction time is useful, and structured, and may help in the future if you want to become a training captain within an airline. But equally, you will get more experience of flying in the real world as a charter or contract pilot.

Get your instructor rating and keep your license ticking over that way. Then immediately start looking for charter/contract work. With 500 or 1000 hours you will be more marketable than with 200. As soon as you're flying (instruction or charter) also start studying for your ATPL exams.

Its all about jumping through hoops and moving on! Don't get stuck in a rut like some people. Thousands of hours instruction time is not much use and neither is thousands of hours contract flying in the bush!

Above all, enjoy it and fly safe. Good luck :ok:

[Exhaust Manifold]

Most charter companies will only let you fly P1 when you reach 700 + hours, before that all P2. You can only use 1/2 your P2 time for a higher licence and many companies/airlines don't take to well to 500 hrs P2 on a caravan! I think instruction till about 500 hrs is good and as JD said, get your ATP subjects out the way. :ok:

[cavortingcheetah]

;) All of the advice you have been given is, in my opinion, absolutely correct.
However, you could try the following sort of a little, teeny, weeny, dodge!
Get your CPL/IR. Go to NAC, for example, and get yourself a type rating on a B58/55. Try and find a Baron, the Hobbs meter of which does not operate with the gear down.
Now take two months and go west, young man, to California. Get yourself a US vailidation on your ZA Commercial Licence. They'll want you write the Air Law, multiple choice, common sense, and give you a restricted US CPL. That will be sufficient for the nefarious purposes with which you have yet to make acquaintance. Stand by, all will be made clear in a trice.
Now that you've done that, spend a day going around Van Nuys Airfield and note down the N registration of any Baron 58/55 upon which you can feast your beady eyes. Note, if you can, particulars as to which charter company uses which aircraft. This is not too important, it is really only for future reference in your log book.
Once you have done your homework, retire to the beach for a few weeks. You could even wait (you know, serve the scum) in a restaurant if you are short of the ready.
Then return to ZA with a log book full of twin hours, all flown in California, on US registered aircraft. (You could, of course, select an Apache or Aztec, but this would not be too clever. Stick with the Baron or better..)
Then, with your logbook, which by now will reflect some 250hrs on twins, appear at a Charter Queen's office for a job as a twin charter pilot. The old dear will probably ask you to do a check out with her Chief Pilot. No problem. Go and find your initial Baron, the one with the effluvious Hobbs. Get yourself an Airways Skipper and fly ten hours in the circuit with engines out right left and centre. The gear stays down. More drag, more handling problems, more expertise, no cost. Then go and fly her check ride.
The Chief Pilot will be aghast, amazed and humbled. He would not have been able to do better.
So, now you have your first twin charter job. In the meantime you will have got your Grade 11 Instructor Rating. Write yourself a letter to the ZA CAA recommending that you be given a twin rating on your Grade 11. Something such as:
'I have flown with Alitalia and can recommend him for a twin instructor rating on the B58/55 series. (Alitalia: Aircraft Landed In Tokyo All luggage In Amsterdam)? Suck it, old fruit, you'd be amazed at what can come down.
Then, build up to five hundred hours twin, in reality somewhat less, instruct like a blue baboon and study someone else's notes on the KingAir until you know it backwards. Know your graphs and do not neglect the high flotation undercarriage.
I write this with no knowledge of that of which I speak. Reference to other threads will inform you that I used to eat bread soaked in methylated spirits and drink milk perfumed with coal gas.
Further secrets upon subscription.
Good Luck.
:E

[Stayinalive]

Rossair = history...if ur good at it....500 to 1000 hrs will get u around...some interesting companies around...low pay..good flight line exp...go 4 it..magic number is 1000 hrs instruc rating or non if ur willing to travel insurance comps will cover....

[MAINROTOR]

After reading all the above posts, it looks to me that most people agree that instruction is the way to go for a young pilot with a fresh comm.

If you look at it from another point of view, can any one tell me just how much his/her (the new instructor's) "fast knowledge and experience" would benefit the student? :confused:

How far can a fresh instructor with 200hrs tt allow a student to go before he/she takes over? I don't think very far. So will the student really learn from his/her mistakes?

I'm not saying that one should not get your instructors rating with a fresh comm and 200 hrs. What I am saying is that in order to give proper instruction and be of much more value to the student one should be a "little bit" more experienced when giving instruction or even thinking of becoming an instructor.

Unfortunately in the commercial aviation industry it is very difficult to get flying work, so the instruction route is most of the times the easiest way that an individual with a fresh comm. can get into the industry.

And if it wasn't for the outlook of most insurance companies (the magic 1000 hour bench mark) things would be a lot easier for all the new guys and girls, cause where must they get those thousand hours in order to be "recognized"? Unfortunately, most of the times the answer again is instruction, unless you have contacts or get a "lucky break".

I still maintain that where possible, instruction should only be given when one has more knowledge and experience.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Low time instructors are great for ab initio training. It's mostly procedural and we can all do with some of that from time to time.

However, 1000 hours in the circuit and GFA doesn't build much experience, regardless of the number of zeros behind the number in your log book. It's more an insurance requirement than anything else.

Ideally, experienced airline/charter/contract pilots would return to give advanced instruction to pass on some of the knowledge they've picked up over the years.

[sky waiter]

Whilst I am in total agreement with the above two posts, i spent 6 months with 438hrs, looking for work, There is nothing unless you have a thousand hours + and being a waiter when you are qualified is not very soul inspiring, so i would love to come and give instruction for fun when i have the knowledge and a nice airline salary to pay the bills but as said in previous posts, ain't going to happen. I enjoy my job thouroughly, but at the same time its the only way fresh comms can build the hours up quickly to move on to bigger things....

[B Sousa]

MOST all the advice here has been good. However Cavorting Kitty with either Tongue in Cheek or Head up Ass, gave some things that although they may be occuring should not be done..
Im not so sure about the fixed wing side but I know in Helicopters that if someone drops a logbook on me with many hours, I will be able to tell the moment his posterior hits the seat if those are correct.

"Now take two months and go west, young man, to California. Get yourself a US vailidation on your ZA Commercial Licence. They'll want you write the Air Law, multiple choice, common sense, and give you a restricted US CPL. That will be sufficient for the nefarious purposes with which you have yet to make acquaintance. Stand by, all will be made clear in a trice."

Some of this has been posted before. Its a given that you can walk in the door with a valid SA license and they will give you a PPL for the Category that you fly in SA. That is Single Engine Land, Multi-Engine Land etc. (You must also have in possession a valid FAA Medical at least Class three for the PPL)
For the Commercial and the FAR website is posted here. It will require a Written Exam, an Oral Exam and a Flight Check AFTER having been signed of by a current CFI. So if you have no time, expect NO PASS...... Never heard of a "Restricted FAA CPL" and its not in Part 61 of the "Bible"
Beyond all that, NOW one has to go through the Immigration office for documentation to show they are in the states for a legitimate reason, before they can even train here. Another major pain in the ass.
I do know of a few in CAA who are smarter than you think. Verifiable matters come up all the time and trust me, FAA and the SACAA have chats daily......
If push comes to shove and someone shows a lot of time on Nxxxx in the states, it is a very simple matter of a phone call to the Owner of that aircraft asking if this is correct. If that answer is questionable, then an FAA Inspector can inspect the aircraft logbooks.
Dont sell your CAA that short......

[cavortingcheetah]

;) B Sousa.
Hello there. Kind of you to reply. Not with the head up the fundament and perhaps only somewhat tongue in the old cheek.
Some years ago, a 'restricted' FAA CPL was simply one issued on the basis of ZA Licence and not valid for hire or reward. Air Law and a Medical, Class 11, were all that were required. Armed with such a permit to fly one could hardly pass up the opportunity to fly lots of aeroplanes, a little bit on each. Well, in theory at any rate.
However; I do think that I should thank you for preserving young aviators of today from embarking upon a thankless quest for glory. It is kind of you to take the trouble to explain to them that that which, shall we say, might, and I only say might, have worked in the twentieth century, will not work in the twenty first.
Or will it, I wonder? Worth a try perhaps and a jolly nice holiday can be had from such a trip anyway. Oh yes, and I suspect that you are a canny chopper Captain, well versed in the artful dodges
of youthful and light hearted pilots. Some of the charter queens of yore were not quite so perspicacious. Cheerio!;)

[MAINROTOR]

SRT

I agree with you on the "procedural can be good for all of us" but I disagree with your out look on procedural ab initio training.

I don't think it's very procedural for a rotary wing student driver to do a very first tailrotor-control failure (I'm sure B Sousa would agree with me) and I don't think it's very procedural for a fixed wing student driver to do a very first spin... So again I ask how far can the "green" instructor let the student go before he/she takes over? Again the answer is not very far. So how much did the student really learn...? Use it, don't use it, but it is a point worth pondering on, so I maintain that experience is a big prerequisite for an instructor (especially ab initio training, because remember after a couple of hours and that fresh comm. they - the "students" will be buzzing around in the skies.)

Safe flying.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

MR

Agreed. The basic stuff can be taught procedurally but anything advanced like real spins, not the incipient spins they pass off these days, should be taught by experienced people. As you say, you learn nothing if you're not allowed to push the envelope. Perhaps the PPL syllabus should include an hour with someone qualified to teach unusual attitudes and spins, but that's for the Instructor's Association to decide.

By the same token, I'm not sure how experienced instructors feel about sitting squashed into a C172 doing interminable circuits with a pre solo student. I'm guessing this would be the preserve of the low time instructor building hours toward that first contract/charter/airline job.