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View Full Version : Australian history to be re-written?


Knight Templar
1st May 2005, 22:46
Australian History (http://www.essaydepot.com/essayme/2722/index.php)

Kaptin M
1st May 2005, 23:57
Even THAT is WRONG - the Australian aboriginals were the first humans to discover Australia.
I don't think any recent history books actually state that Cook discovered the East Coast of Oz, just that he was the first recorded to take possession of The Great South Land, in the name of H.M., the Queen of England.

BlueEagle
2nd May 2005, 00:21
And I thought the Dutch were the first?:uhoh: :confused:

Hawk
2nd May 2005, 00:26
I thought the Phonecians were here first. Supposed to be some wreck just north of Cooktown.

Erebus
2nd May 2005, 01:39
It's worth visiting www.1421.tv or reading the book "1421" as it would appear the Chinese beat all the Europeans to anywhere of note.
It even appears the Maori should hand back all their special land and fishing rights, as they were not the first.

Blacksheep
2nd May 2005, 02:12
Captain James Cook RN didn't discover Australia in the conventional sense. Odd bits of land had already been recorded in the area by many navigators, leading to the idea of a great 'Terra Australis Incognita'. Cook had instructions to map out the extent of the land and report on possible sites for colonies. He then became the first person to circumnavigate the terra incognita and produce an accurate map of the entire coastline, which, under the international rules then in place, entitled him to name the prominent features of the coastline and claim the land for Britain.

Of course, other sailors and expeditions - Portugese, Dutch, French - had been in the area, During Cook's first visit to New Zealand the French Indian ship "St Jean Baptise" on a on a trading mission passed close to Cook's ship in daylight on an opposite course without either ship sighting one another. But the French didn't map out the land in sufficient detail to lay claim to it.

Cook's original map is extremely accurate - compare it with a modern map and note how small any errors are - and we must remember what navigational instruments and techniques were available to him at the time. For example, he was using mechanical clocks to measure longitude while operating in an area where it was impossible to get an accurate fix from a known location. James Cook is widely acknowledged as, if not the greatest, then certainly one of the best practitioners of the art of navigation who ever lived.

According to some, he tasted pretty good too... :(

Hawk
2nd May 2005, 02:37
Always amazed me how he found the Endeavour River. The ship was so badly damaged it had to be towed behind a tender with the crew rowing. The mouth of the Endeavour is quite difficult to see from the ocean. Wonder if he used Spanish charts.

Jerricho
2nd May 2005, 02:40
how they found the Endeavour River to row the ship in for repairs

And the fact that the river had the same name as the boat is even more amazing


;)

Hawk
2nd May 2005, 02:48
Well I guess the Spanish named it in anticipation, with a little notation saying..

**Lt. Cook.. please pull in here for repairs, oh.. and don't leave any rubbish on the reef.

(edited cause tinny said it was incorrect). :rolleyes:

Buster Hyman
2nd May 2005, 03:04
:mad: I'm sick of hearing about other people "discovering" what has been well known for quite a long time! It looks like an American site, so I'm not suprised that they are discovering "new" things about the world every day!

Just about every seafaring Euro nation had a chance discovery of this continent, only the Poms had a use for it.

Right, now I'm fired up! Where's that cat?:mad:

tinpis
2nd May 2005, 04:49
He wasnt a Capt Cook when he put into OZ.
He never got his swab until he returned to Blighty.http://www.augk18.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/angryoldman.gif

acbus1
2nd May 2005, 06:24
According to some, he tasted pretty good too.
But use sparingly.


(Too many Cooks spoil the broth.) :p

cavortingcheetah
2nd May 2005, 06:58
:) Kaptin M. I think you diped a bit there. Cook would have taken possession of any possessions in the name of HM. George 111.
The first white settlers, most of whom would not have nodded the nut, fell into Oz at Botany Bay from a British prison fleet in 1788. They would have been red-penny men or hoons, knock-abouts, tea-leafs, bow the crumpets and victims of verbal.
May I commend, to all students of antipodean history the book: 'The Fatal Shore.' Robert Hughes. Collins Harvill. ISBN: 0-00-217361-1.
Fare thee well for the nonce.;)

Groaner
2nd May 2005, 07:12
Gotta take umbrage at James Cook being the first to circumnavigate Oz... he wasn't.

Usually that is credited to Matthew Flinders who salied a dinghy around it, but arguably Abel Tasman in 1642 also qualifies, with the fairly unique claim to fame of managing to go around the entire continent but missing the mainland completely (he did stumble across Tasmania and New Zealand tho).

Cook only went up the east coast, missed out on the south/west entirely, didn't go around it. Hell of a good sailor though (they all were)

Seaeagle109
2nd May 2005, 08:03
Groaner,

From memory,Flinders circumnavigated Oz in a ship(HMS Investigator if I remember correctly); the dinghy you're thinking of was sailed by George Bass and Flinders(plus a few others) down the south coast of New South Wales/Victoria to Bass Strait.

tony draper
2nd May 2005, 08:20
Cook was practically a Geordie, so we not only gave you the Railways and light bulbs we gave yer Oz as well.
:rolleyes:

Pinky the pilot
2nd May 2005, 08:34
Have to agree with Hawk; is there not a theory that the Phoenicians ventured as far as that? I seem to remember stories of bits and pieces of ancient wrecks found on FNQ coasts.

You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.

BALIX
2nd May 2005, 08:37
Cook was practically a Geordie,

No he wasn't he was a Yorkshireman. Nobut just, perhaps - had he been born today he would have been from the county of (ugh!) Cleveland. He grew up in Great Ayton and then moved to Staithes near Whitby. The rest is, as they say, history. Come to think of it, the first bit is history as well but there you go. :confused:

diginagain
2nd May 2005, 08:40
TD
"James Cook was born on the 27th October 1728 in the small Yorkshire town of Marton. Unlike the majority of Naval officers of the time he was not the son of rich or noble parents. In fact he was the son of a Scottish farm labourer and a Yorkshire girl. He was intelligent enough to impress his father's employer who paid for the young James Cook's schooling."

(http://www.hunterian.gla.ac.uk/museum/cook/cookBio.html)

Nearly a Geordie - but not quite.

tony draper
2nd May 2005, 08:55
One understands he had applied for membership but was eaten before the papers came through.
One can hardly blame him for running off to sea,all that muck from ICI would drive anybody away.
:rolleyes:

Blacksheep
2nd May 2005, 09:17
Aha mr. draper! So we smoggies are "almost Geordies" now are we? [sniff]

I'd like to point out that Sunderland is somewhat closer to the Geordie border than Marton, which is of course, now a snooty middle class suburb of Middlesbrough. BTW BALIX Cleveland (or Cliff's lund) existed long before Yorkshire fell to the southern poofters and seceded from Northumbria.

Teesside has a long and distinguished relationship with Dunnunda, what with us having first discovered a practical use for it, then built a nice bridge over Sydney Harbour for the unfortunate inhabitants (along the lines of one we first knocked up for the Geordies, who weren't quite up to scratch at bridge building either.) :ok:

Gouabafla
2nd May 2005, 09:23
To be fair to Drapes. If one parent was Scottish and the other from Yorkshire, then on average, Cook was a Geordie.

BALIX
2nd May 2005, 11:23
If one parent was Scottish and the other from Yorkshire, then on average, Cook was a Geordie

And tighter than a duck's arse...

Buster Hyman
2nd May 2005, 11:52
...He was apparently "eaten" before he could patent the electric light globe!

Jerricho
2nd May 2005, 14:10
I hear the Hawaiian types that did eat him pooed white for a couple of days after.

(What did ever happen to white dog poo?)

Kaptin M
2nd May 2005, 23:27
It's strange, that of all the places Captain Cook could have chosen to live in Australia, he built his cottage in Fitzroy Gardens, a park in the centre of what is now Melbourne city (who's Roy, by the way?). :confused: :confused: :confused:
http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/travel/tg/poi/df/100x100_dfb9cd64b2b5fcd8c082782b6c6902ec.jpg

tinpis
3rd May 2005, 02:08
Fitzroy Son of a King.
Ben Doon and Roger McCavity Geordie knaves.

cavortingcheetah
3rd May 2005, 06:57
;) Fitz:
Actually from the old French 'fiz', now fils or son in English.
Used to denote illegitimate sons of kings, as in Fitzroy (roi) or the sons of Princes. The word Fitz was also used by that great English historian, Thomas Macaulay, to designate an Irishman of Anglo-Norman extraction. :=

Jerricho
3rd May 2005, 15:51
illegitimate sons

Perfect name for the place then. Especially the football team :E :E

Blacksheep
4th May 2005, 03:02
There's plenty more of those old Captain Cook's homes still available in Cleveland. They're all genuine too. Captain Cook moved around a lot.

...and there's a few more in Staithes and Whitby down't south in Yorkshire. ;)

Buster Hyman
4th May 2005, 03:31
I guess the old Cook was a sly real eastate agent too!

tony draper
4th May 2005, 07:38
Indeed, there is much of Captain Cook down in smoggy town,when in your entire history (not a very long history at that) you have produced but one famous person you has to make the most of it.
:rolleyes:

rotaryman
4th May 2005, 08:53
BLACKSHEEP:

on a on a trading mission passed close to Cook's ship in daylight on an opposite course without either ship sighting one another.

If they didn't sight each other! how do you know it happened?

Who recorded this information ??:confused: :confused: :confused:

Gainesy
4th May 2005, 08:55
a snooty middle class suburb of Middlesbrough

There yer go folks, the first recorded use of "snooty" and Middlesbrough. Come to think of it, "class" and Middlesbrough don't sit too well either.:)

tony draper
4th May 2005, 09:04
Something else that does not sit well with Drapes re Smoggy Town, a chap down there owes Drapes money, the dog fled the place rather than face Drapes wrath, he is still being sought, one shall have him.
Two towns Drapes has a down on, Edinbourgh and Middlesbrough,both involve suns on money owed, twice bitten once shy as they say ,one refuses to undertake work in places ending in "bourgh" now, they are invariably peopled by scallywags welshers scoundrels and their ilk.
:suspect:

Blacksheep
5th May 2005, 02:46
You're not a member of the Royal Institue of Navigation then rotaryman?

Ships keep a sailing log in which they record their movements and position. In days of old, the noon position fix was a well established ritual, when latitude was determined from the altitude of the sun and longitude is determined from the time. The noon fix was meticulously recorded in the sailing log. Though I say was, in many ships it still is an established ritual. (An exception is made for Greek registered vessels, where the direction, speed and eventual arrival at a destination of any sort remains entirely in the hands of the Almighty)

Researchers stumbled upon the fact that at noon on the 13th December 1769, both the Endeavour and the St Jean-Baptiste (under the command of Jean-François-Marie de Surville) were passing what is now called Cape Marie van Diemen, within sight of land but in opposite directions. Although the two ships passed quite close to each other, there is no report in either log of the vessels sighting the other. It was blowing a gale at the time and both ships were struggling to maintain course.

James Cook was carrying out a survey to map the extent of the land and claim it for the crown. The French were, as usual, trading with the natives - drawing maps being a cissy task fit only for women and Englishmen. If only Jean-Francois-Marie had been paying proper attention to his navigation, New Zealand might today be called La France Nouvelle, everyone would be speaking French and the Maoris would have learned to cook properly.

Buster Hyman
5th May 2005, 03:06
Maoris would have learned to cook properly
Considering there is only so much one can do with sheep & missionary's!:ugh:

emeritus
5th May 2005, 07:41
Blacksheep..


re:...Geordies

Where do Geordies come from ? My Grandfather was born in Sunderland and I always thought he was a Geordie.

Would he have been offended had I called him one?

Where did the term come from ? I might have to rewrite some of our own Australian History!!:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

emeritus

tony draper
5th May 2005, 08:28
The concensus is that the term Geordies stems fro the time King George discovered that the chaps on Tyneside were not only good at digging up coal they were also were very good at putting Scotsmen to the sword, so he took them with him on various jaunts North of the Border to chastise the Jockistanis.
So Geordies = King Georges Men.

:rolleyes:

Gouabafla
5th May 2005, 15:37
If you Grandad was born in Sunderland, he almost certainly wouldn't have been offended if you'd called him a Geordie - though he might have thought you lacking in education. As Drapes said, Geordie is properly a term which applies to people on Tyneside, but it used to be applied in a wider sense to anyone from the North East of England.

I grew up around Sunderland and I used to describe myself as a Geordie to anyone from outside of the region, but I'd describe myself as a Wearsider to anyone who knew a bit of NE England geography. These days, people from Sunderland are known all round the UK as Mackhams (maccums/mackams) a term which was very rare during my childhood.

From studying my own family history, it's a wonder that there is anyone left living in Geordieland. It seems like almost the whole population decamped to Australia sometime in the mid 1800s.

SmilingKnifed
5th May 2005, 16:01
I've often wondered where the term mackem comes from. My Black Cats supporting mates have yet to shed any light on it.

Gouabafla
5th May 2005, 16:16
I've heard various suggestions for the derivation of mackem. My uncles in Seaham Harbour (about five miles geographically and light years in terms of rivalry from Sunderland) used to constantly dismiss Sunderland folk (townies) saying

"they can dee nowt but mackem and tackem"

tr. They are unable to acheive anything other than to make them and take them.

Never knew what it meant, but I suspect that 'mackem' comes from that phrase.

Rabid Dog
5th May 2005, 19:38
I thought they was Geordies, because a couple of hundred years ago all the men seemed to be called George.

tony draper
5th May 2005, 19:53
When Drapes wander the dusty roads of Oz all the chaps seemed to be called Bruce and the Shelas called Gwen.
Although one did pay attention to a nice nurse in Wooloomooloo(sp?) called Lynn.

:cool:

redsnail
5th May 2005, 20:23
I'm from convict stock :D Also from 10 pound tourist stock. Both bases covered :D

I'll agree that "On Fatal Shore" is an awesome read. Pretty harsh and brutal but by all accounts, pretty honest.

sprocket
5th May 2005, 20:37
After reading about Drapers Aussie escapades in the headlines all those years ago, I think that Lynn would most likely have been the 'nice' policewoman. :hmm: