Cork Airport - today's diverted flights

[Tom the Tenor]

Another Bank Holiday weekend and Cork Airport once again suffered major disruption due to weather related diverersions. The maddening thing about it all was the weather was forecast as early as Wednesday and we had to just sit here and wait for it to happen!

The plans of up to 2,300 Cork Airport passengers were thrown into chaos as one flight after another this morning diverted to Shannon. How Shannon Airport must laugh at Cork - the management of Cork Airport seems to know no shame?

The flights concerned were the FR901 which diverted to snn and the outbound FR902 was cancelled. Yours truly and the Mrs were a pax on the outbound so we were feeling really bad today. The easy from Gatwick was lucky enough to land but it was a shambles after that with three bmi baby flights from MAN, BHX and MME diverting, the EI flights from AMS and LHR, two Futura flights from the Canaries along with an LTE flight. An Air Europa flight diverted too but had the gall first to look for a CATIIIA approach. The poor Air Europa Captain obviously has no idea about the history and the sad culture of Cork Airport.

The RVRs for the morning were typically Cork moving up and down but were generally around 250 metres and just once did the RVR hit 150 metres and that was only briefly.

A recent Oireachtas (Parliamentary) meeting was told Cork Airport did not justify a CATIII ILS!

It appears the cost of installation of a CATIII is not the issue at Cork but more related to the ongoing maintenance costs after being commissioned.

This is no excuse for inaction.

Cork Airport, her passengers and the airline users have a right to the best available navaids and equipment for a smoothly running as possible daily operation.

The Cork Airport Board and management people should act without delay and install a CATIII ILS navaid.

Failing that, the parties above should tender their resignations.

No more excuses and "What ifs?"

[a bristolian]

T the T

I must admit I do understand your frustrations.

I have close association with another airport that does suffer from time to time with poor weather.

We did decide to get CAT3B on Rwy 27 and I cannot believe to this day how its transformed the airport and arguably a better investment than our new terminal.

We even get other diversions in now when the weather (RVR) is worse here than the destination airport!!

I really hope for Cork that someone has the foresite to go for it and then you will have the last piece of the jigsaw you need.

Best of luck.

[eastjimmy]

yeah i was in cork today going out to lhr on 724. it was choas the place was mobbed there was as many buses on the ramp ferring pax to snn as there were planes. everywhere people were just sitting around on the ground^. the q for the coffee bar snaked around past the exit from duty free god help us all if we had to get out of there in a hurry. i was lucky enough my flight at least landed and was able to take off. but its just so dis hartening to see coach loads of pax fed up going up to snn. all there must be laughing their heads off. the place is an embarresment on days like these. GIVE US SOME NAV AIDS QUICK or at least a non stop train from cork to shannon so we can go about our business from snn and not run the risk of being delayed.... i missed my connection by the way ......... some things never change ehhhhhh....

[Tom the Tenor]

This is my second attempt at updating the Bank Holiday weekend's events. The first time my wife's family's PC in the UK packed up on Sunday afternoon just as I was about to post and all was lost. How maddening but being in another's house I felt it bad taste to scream!

When the FR902 was cancelled on Saturday morning Serviceair rebooked us out on Saturday night's FR908. Driving up the hill around 7 pm the low cloud was again beginning to close in on the field after there being a clearer period during the afternoon when all the inbound items were able to land.

Following checking in we were soon to learn that both the FR907 and the inbound easy from LGW were both in hold above Cork waiting for an improvement on the RVR of 250 metres. The hoped for improvement failed to materialse and a little later the PA was given that both FR and Easy were diverting to Shannon.

Deja vous? However, this time the decision was taken to bus the FR908 passengers up to Shannon and it was not long before the Cork Airport ramp was once again filling with buses and not aerplanes. The Bus World magazine should do a feature on diversion buses at Cork Airport. All the second line companies get a chance to make a killing and, alas, it is all too common.

This was a new experience for the Mrs and I and it was a quiet bus indeed as we headed out the gates at Cork Airport for the journey up through counties Cork, Limerick and on through Clare to Shannon. Eventually, a young lady approached the bus driver requesting a toilet stop. The driver spun a story that he had been told at Cork that the waiting FR908 pilots at Shannon might go out of hours if the bus was late arriving and that our flight might not leave until sometime Sunday morning so the young lady withdrew again to her seat.

It was not long before another young lady approached the driver with a similar request for a toilet stop. The driver tried the same story again about the pilots going out of hours but the lady in question was taking none of this ol' guff. She was accompanied by two young children and stated she was also 5.5 months pregant and that she needed a toilet stop asap!

The driver was beaten now and within a short time the bus pulled in at a service station at Charleville much to the relief of many passengers. The now tired passengers behaved very orderly and the bus was underway again in less than ten minutes.

Now, whom at Cork spun the story to the bus driver about the Ryanair pilots going out of hours? What is this about and whose agenda is being served? The passengers had behaved perfectly, arriving at Cork Airport, checking in, being security screened etc up to twice in the one day! They had not put a foot wrong and then to suggest conceding to a short stop might somehow cause even more delay is just cheap.

The buses arrived at Shannon around 23.45 hours but it was after 00.10 Sunday before two guys from Serviceair cargo stepped up to the plate at the check in desks to note our Cork boarding cards and reconcile the passengers bags.

The scene airside at Shannon was a little bizarre. There were hundreds of U. S. troops about in full desert uniform taking coffee or having a Budweiser waiting around until their aircraft finished refueling before heading off west towards home or east to the battlefields of Iraq. However, there was an even more troubling sight to behold airside at Shannon. One of the diverted Futura flights from Cork was still at Shannon. It appears the Futura crew did go out of hours and went off to a welcome hotel bed but the outbound bussed up Cork passengers were forced to wait it out at Shannon until the crew were ready again to fly. It was a hopeless sight seeing many Cork passengers strewn about all over the floor near the departure gates. The state of some of the ladies and young children was especially heart rending - they looked in a dreadful state.

Why? Because Cork Airport has no CATIII navaid available.

FR908 boarded quickly but the passenger manifest and the numerous headcounts by the cabin crew failed to reconcile so it was quite a time before we eventually got underway so much so that even the Futura mentioned above took off before FR908! We were at last airbourne at 01.40 local arriving at Stansted exactly an hour later. The cabin crew and flight crew of FR908 must be commended for their professionalism, courtesy and good spirit in dealing with a group of exhausted Cork passengers. By their manner they certainly were a credit to all that is still good in professionally conducted air transport.

Why is it so difficult for the management at Cork Airport to behave similarly to her customers, the passengers? Come on, with the history of poor weather that Cork Airport has why is it not justified to have a CATIII navaid?

The Mrs and I returned from Stansted last night on the FR907. The weather was super at Stansted last night, very sunny and not much cloud. It was interesting to note how many faces we again recognised from the previous flight all of whome were like us returning again to Cork!

We landed at Cork in poor weather, low cloud, limited visibility and very heavy rain. Top marks to the crew for shooting the approach in what must have been wx just above minima?

Cork Airport parked our aircraft on Stand 10 by Aer Lingus cargo in spite of a closer stand being available so it was in the lashing rain 189 passengers traipsed to the terminal getting more soaked with every step. What a welcome home!

Good to see Cork so busy at the time, though! An impressive sight taxiing in sure enough.

[neidin]

Sorry to hear of your hassles Tom.

Sadly you will never get CAT III in ORK. You are already EURO 40m over budget on the palace they call the new terminal. CAT III with the falling ground would be massively expensive relative to pax numbers. With ORK only currently breaking even and capped on charges - well the maths just do not work.

I think things will get more difficult for you with the soon to be announced expansion at KIR where they always have perfect weather.

[Tom the Tenor]

There was a big battle over the flippin' airbridges and all for the sake of 750,000 euro. Makes you think what all the noise was about from the DAA, CAA etc.

Similarly, the case for CATIII seems to be related not to the capital expenditure but the ongoing maintenance costs etc. I cannot help wondering if this is just another example of jumpin' up and down over a comparatively small amount of cash relative to the wheelbarrow of debt being pushed around the place by Messrs Gantley etc?

No, this is all about tactics and keeping Cork down. Keeping Cork down maintains the status quo and suits the enemies in Shannon, the IAA and, regretably, probably in Cork itself.

Giving way is not an option. Up to 5,000 Cork Airport passengers were screwed last weekend and blaming it all on fog is a load of tosh. There is no acceptable excuse for Cork Airport not to have a CATIII ILS. Whatever the cost having CATIII at Cork it would be money well spent. Go ask the ladies and children lying down on the ground at Shannon in the early hours of last Sunday morning if you have any doubt about that and then tell me again that a CATIII ILS at Cork is unjustifiable.

[Irish Steve]

Go ask the ladies and children lying down on the ground at Shannon in the early hours of last Sunday morning if you have any doubt about that

From a technical point of view, I see no argument that Cork needs CAT III.

There is however another aspect to this, which is that even if Cork had CAT 3, there are airlines and aircraft that would be unable to use it, for several reasons.

First, the aircraft has to have CAT3 equipment. Modern jets can have, but may not, depending on where they fly most regularly.

Older jets and turboprops tend not to have CAT 3, but in some cases, they may have CAT2. Even that requires a lot of work, and additional training, which is not cheap. In some cases, there is no way that they can be fitted with CAT3 capability, the aircraft are just too old and don't have an acceptable technical specification.

Next, the crew have to be trained AND RECENT on CAT 3, which is a much larger overhead for the airline, especially if the vast majority of airfields that they operate to do not have CAT 3, as even a "practise" CAT3 approach may not be possible.

So, while I fully and absolutely sympathise with the problems you are experiencing in Cork, and it may well be the case that the allocation of funds to some projects may well not have been in the long term best interest of the travelling public, even now, I'm not completely sure that CAT3 will solve the problems completely.

Aer Lingus and Ryanair should have no problems. Some of the charter carriers may be able to get in, but some will not. Aer Arran can only operate to CAT 2, and that's to their credit, many regional commuter turboprop operators do not, so they deserve credit, not abuse, for having got to where they have, it's not a quick, cheap or easy thing to do, and the fact they have made that commitment is worth recognising.

Not sure where that leaves you, hopeful I guess is about the best it's going to be for a while, I suspect that pressure on the politicians is about the most productive way forward.

[LTNman]

There is a financial cost to Cork in not having a CAT3 ILS due to lost revenue whenever an aircraft diverts and the fact that some airlines might think twice about operating services into an airport with such a poor weather record and an inadequate ILS. Even though many aircraft operating into Cork might not be CAT 3 there will be times when a CAT 2 approach would have been successful.

At Luton, which is another airfield with its head in the clouds the CAT 3 ILS has transformed the place. I can still remember the days of 500m RVR’s that would close the place all day. Now apart from delays due to Low viz procedures it’s just another day apart from some Biz jets that seem to struggle to get in. Even the Air Arran with its CAT 2 aircraft normally make it in.

Cork needs to remember that with airlines running on tight margins a morning diversion will wreck the whole days flying programme. If that happens too many times then an airline could pull out.

[Tom the Tenor]

Well, Steve, here is my kind of technical report. Last weekend there were about 15 flights diverted at Cork Airport which effected about 5,000 passengers. So, with say 15 diversions and 5000 pax can anyone hazard a guess how much lost cash that means to the airport? Follow that by the costs to the airlines in bussing pax around, refunds, hotac for crew, aircraft downtime etc. All would add up to a pretty cent or two? Enough to keep Cork bound crews current on CATIII for a while perhaps and maybe also pay for a few months installation mainenance?

It is clear from what LTN Man and a bristolian are saying. A CATIII ILS navaid would transform the present unacceptable situation at Cork. It is obvious from last weekend's diversions that CATII is just not good enough for low visibility operations at Cork Airport.

I see plenty of argument for CATIII at Cork Airport.

[Irish Steve]

I see plenty of argument for CATIII at Cork Airport.

Tom,

So do I.

We're not disagreeing here, CAT 3 should have come before other things in the Aer Rianta mess a long time ago, but we both know that running the bar has a higher priority than getting the passengers in and out!

The only point I was looking to make is that when the Birds Are Walking at Cork, there will be some operators who still cannot get in, even with CAT 3 up and running, because they can't meet all the requirements to be able to do so, and in some cases, unless they change aircraft, they never will.

The other issue is that I don't think the airlines can choose to have some CAT 3 crews, if they are going to operate to CAT 3 limits, they have to train all crews on type over time, and keep them current, which is not always easy. To do otherwise would be a rostering nightmare for any operator with more than a very limited number of aircraft.

I've seen Cork on a "BAW" day, I've diverted from BRS to EXT more than once because I couldn't get in on CAT 1, and that will still happen even if you get a CAT 3 installation down there.

Hopefully, someone somewhere is watching these threads, and will take some notice of the comments, and look closely at the real costs of not having CAT 3, and maybe recognise that they have to do something about it.

[waffler]

Having flown into cork on many occassýons on different aircraft
from shorts 360 to a321 I dont think that having a cat 3 ils will solve all your problems.
Firstly,on a number of occassions the crosswind is outside of limits for a cat 3 autoland.
Secondly the runway length can make an autoland on a wet
runway with little or no headwind in a heavy a321 interesting.
and most importantly,the topography of Cork is its biggest problem.Cat 3 autolands need an accurate radio altimeter reading.
the undulating ground on both runway approachs but in perticularly the main rwy 17 prevents it from being suitable for cat 3 unless radar reflectors were installed with its added cost.

By the way there is no cat 3 runway at Shannon just one cat 2 runway.Shannons secret is its evevation 50ft compared to Corks 500ft

[Copenhagen]

The fact that fees are capped below a level allowing profitability and money to invest in infrastructure means that they cannot afford the additional improvements.

Perhaps Ryanair is getting rich at the cost of the airport and its users. Less airbridges and ILS = more Ryanair profit due to lower airport costs.

The sunday times had an article recently about the trials of running the Irish Airports - quite interesting. My understanding is that is that the airport has a fees cap and is supposed to reduce costs - however the government wont agree to employee cuts and other cost saving initiatives.

<http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2095-1592106,00.html>

[neidin]

There will never be CAT III at ORK in next 10 years. In fact there is unlikely to be another penny spent on ORK for the next 10 years. A massive cost overun on an already far too "posh" terminal has made sure of that.

ORK will do very well to get Dublin to pay for the new facility "Debt Free". If it gets that then it will still struggle with the maintenance on the new facility to breakeven going forward unless there is hugely increased staff productivity.

Suicide deals at SNN and the continual low cost private airport at KIR will just maintain that pressure long term.

[Tom the Tenor]

Those of us who love Cork Airport will never accept a defeatist attitude.

Cork Airport will not be beaten.

[IMHO]

Catch 22 then for all at ORK! Sadly can only see more diverts and pi$$ed off pax kipping on the terminal floor.
After reading the previous posts- very informative by the way-
ORK seems to be caught up in a mish mash of Irish transport politics, important decisons need to be made,
1-forward- investment in CAT III
or 2- Stagnation- nil investment- nil growth for ORK -(shame)
Keep fighting T the T, but as stated the Bean Counters within Low-Cos will not keep subsidising local bus companies ( how much to hire a bus in ORK these days?) pax welfare, and all the other points mentioned in previous posts.
Dont know much bout KIR as being an alternative??
Good luck to ORK, and all who sail in her!!