We'll unload your baggage

[Three Blades]

Does anybody know if they really do unload your baggage if you neglect to go to the plane in time ? Or is it an excuse to sit for a bit longer in the hope that the passenger actually makes it.
How on earth long would it take to look for one bag in the hold of an A380 when they are all packed in random order ?

[PAXboy]

If you are packing bags for an a/c that uses containers. You can scan the tags of each bag as it goes into the container.

Then you can extract one container (which may take some time!) but you only have to search one unit, not the a/c.

[Globaliser]

When I've missed the flight, so have my bags. I take that as a sign that they really do what they threaten to do! :D

On one occasion, I watched "my" aircraft still sitting at the gate, without me onboard, because the gate agents had packed up and gone pronto before I arrived at the gate. There seemed to be some work still being done on baggage, which I have always assumed that I'd caused. I didn't hang around to confirm it, though, because I did need to go off and try to get myself rebooked on the next flight ...

[hapzim]

Yes if your late to the gate the doors will be shut and your bags found and off loaded. All tend to be bar coded at check-in, followed through security and scaned as put into bins or hold. So we know where it is!

Airlines will take the delay to remove the offending bag rather than let you on. Can sell you another ticket and why let you get away with delaying all those pax that got to the gate well in time.

[419]

Has there ever been a case of an airline trying to claim compensation for the delay, from a passenger who missed their flight?

It really pi55es me off, sitting on a plane, waiting for someone to turn up, and when they finally board, you know exactly where they've been, by the smell of alcohol on them.
They would usually be the first to try and claim off the airline, if there was a delay or cancellation.

[Irish Steve]

Yes, and you can be sure that once the decision is made, you are not getting on the aircraft. :} :E :E :p

I've searched for bags many times. On a bin loaded flight, it's not quite so bad, in that if the job is done properly you know which bin it's in. can still take a while, depending on the type, you might have to take 3 or 4 bins out to get the one you need, and sod's law says that as you thought you'd finished, another crew has already robbed the bin dollies for their flight, which means going looking for something else to put the bins on, they won't all fit on the high loader

Trouble starts when it's something like a 757 charter flight, they could be anywhere, and there's over 300 bags to be checked. That takes time, depending on how full the hold is, some bags have to come out to make room to get to the rest of them, the hold is not exactly easy to work or move in. If you're really lucky, and know what order the bags went on in, and the operator is one that has the tags recorded, then you've an idea where it is, and which end of the aircraft to start at. Otherwise, it can be a 45 minute job.

I'd love to see carriers surcharge late passengers with the full cost of the delay, it can be very high, especially if a slot has been missed, the knock on effect of a delay on Friday can sometimes last till Tuesday on a busy charter aircraft if the delay is more than a short one.

I've known Monarch at DUB operate over 2 hours late all weekend because they missed a slot on Friday morning because some :mad: eejit was in the bar, and didn't realise his flight had closed. By the time we'd taken out 5 cans to get at the 6th, found the bags and put it all back, the aircraft ended up taking a 3 hour slot delay. That lasted all weekend, so over 2400 passengers were inconvenienced because of one inconsiderate as:mad:e!

[capt.cynical]

Irish Steve
The A:mad: e you refer to may well have been "Globaliser" read above.
Are you happy now Global. :yuk:

[Globaliser]

You have no idea what it was that caused me to miss the flight.

Suffice it to say that I was upgraded on the rebooked flight, by way of apology. A satisfactory solution all round.

[Irish Steve]

The A:mad:e you refer to may well have been "Globaliser" read above.

Probably not.

99% of the time, the problem is people that are not making a connection, or similar, it's a holiday charter flight, and the attitude is "I'm on holiday from NOW", and DUB at least has more bars than almost anything else, and said bars don't have PA systems in them, which means that they can be called for ever, and it's only when one of the gate staff do the rounds of the bars, calling for them by name if they can be heard, that they are eventually found, usually still in the middle of about 6 pints of whatever.

At that stage, the decision has to be made as to if it's actually safe to let them board.

A while back, an entire family of "travellers" were in the bar, and it took more than a few people, airport, security and others to eventually "persuade" them to board their flight. they nearly had a riot on their hands

There has to be a better way of making sure that people are where they are supposed to be when they are supposed to be there. Exactly what that is, short of having something akin to a prison cell system I don't know, but for sure, the present system is not working, and it does cause huge problems.

It's bad enough for the flight that's on the gate. It can then be made far worse if the gate that's now blocked is the only one that's available for another aircraft that's landing 5 minutes after the scheduled off blocks time. I've known Transatlantic flights have to hold for over an hour waiting for a gate for reasons like this, and I can assure you, sitting on the ground waiting for a gate for over an hour after an 11 and a half overnight flight goes down like a lead balloon!

[ExSimGuy]

Why is it that pax announcements say "your flight is now boarding", when there is absolutely no activity at the gate, then we hear an announcement "last call" some 30 minutes before scheduled departure time, and at the gate they are just starting to board the F-class pax:\

Maybe it's to get the "travellers" out of the bars, but I know the effect it has on me - I just ignore the calls and make sure that I'm at the gate at a reasonable time (usually about half-way through boarding)

I know that late pax cause problems (I have been on an aircraft where we had a pax who decided at the last minute not to fly as she was terrifiedof flying - and her bags had to be located and offloaded), but these "early" announcements also have pax sitting in the depature gate, when they'd rather have been enjoying a pre-flight beer and a smoke (yes, I'm one of those:E )

There must be a "middle ground":*

[Rollingthunder]

Yup, sometimes the boarding announcements - screen advices are a little off and can vary wildly from airport to airport to airline to airline.

What I do is forgoe that last whisky or final ciggie and follow the instructions. I may stew around for awhile but never have a problem getting onboard, wheels up and on the way. I don't like testing the boarding instructions.

For some of the public who I often see traipse onboard 5 minutes before sked dep, there should be a web statement to verify and agree that if you don't follow the timing instructions you will not fly and will forfeit your ticket without compensation. For regular paper tickets, they should sign the same statement at check-in.

The only thing that lifts my mood is when the lates have no overhead bin space left for their multitude of carry-on items.

I can be nasty when fed-up but have some sympathy for folks running to make a bad connection. Most of the cases are not bad connections.

[ExSimGuy]

Ah, the overhead bins! Why do aircraft makers not understand that pax need to store their enormous 25 kg suitcases in the carry-on overhead storage?:mad: Especially in Knoteetingham where the average pax has 2 carry-ons of this proportion?

And why insist that they "keep seat belts on till the engines have stopped", when everyone knows that they can make the gate before the aircraft, and the baggage belt before their luggage?

[10secondsurvey]

I agree with some earlier sentiments. Whilst I will make every effort to avoid delaying flights, way too often now gate closing calls are made when boarding has not even started. This recently happened to me with the worlds favourite at LHR. All the screens in T1 showed final call. I rushed to the gate to find boarding had not even started, the gate staff were not even there. The worst culprits are Easyjet. On one occasion, they put up final call at Stansted for my flight, I dashed to the gate, only to be told the flight was delayed 40 minutes. I asked why they were announcing final call, and was told 'we do that to make sure everyone is here on time'

So, guess what, I ignore such calls now, and like another poster try to arrange to be at the gate with time to spare. The airlines do themselves no favours by putting out FAKE gate closing notices.

[WHBM]

The worst culprits are Easyjet. On one occasion, they put up final call at Stansted for my flight, I dashed to the gate, only to be told the flight was delayed 40 minutes. I asked why they were announcing final call, and was told 'we do that to make sure everyone is here on time'This certainly is true at Stansted. You can see the display change from "Boarding" to "Final Call" when the inbound aircraft is not even on stand yet.

Now apparently Easy's handling agent at Stansted has a policy of doing the various stages of indication so many minutes before scheduled departure time without any reference to actuality. It maks things easier for them I suppose.

But regular passengers are not stupid and soon realise the displayed information is a nonsense. If they paid more attention to accuracy I'm sure they would find the passengers do too.

[Tranceaddict]

What many of you don't realise is that airlines are very pre-occupied with OTP (on time perfomance) and are vicious when trying to achieve it, spending millions on research and training of all their staff (including handling agents) to get the aircraft away on time (in fact many airlines give handling agents bonuses for early departures, and off course penalise when they go late, even if is because of late passengers, they believe it is up to handling agents to get the PAX to the gate on time).

With regard to Stansted, over 60% of people who fly through are first timers at the airport, and most of them assume (wrongly) that once through the security they are at the gate, and have no idea that they have to get a train or a long walk to the gates (even though it is explained in great detail at check-in the many of the passengers do not speak or cannot understand basic english), hence the reason information screens can be changed to get people to the gate in the satellites.

Having said that the handling agents can change the screens, if they do not they change automatically at certain times before the departure time, so even if the aircraft has not arrived and the handling aents do not intervine the screens will change to "Final Call" at approximatley 20 mins before the departure time.

Though never assume just because you can't see your aircraft that it's not there, aircraft can be parked remotley and you could be bussed to it, also aircraft changes can be done which would not neccesarily corolate with what you think is happening.

Do pay attention to announcments at airports, there not done for fun just to get passengers running around, the are done to get aicraft away on time (or early) to make the whole place run as smooth as possible.

Going back to the original point of the post, it is a legal requirement that any passenger that does not travel to have their baggage removed before the aircraft departs, so yes your baggae will ALWAYS be offloaded, no matter how long it will take (and we'll make you watch just to rub it in, and to hopefully make sure you don't do it again)

[pax2908]

I could imagine that for some particular flights (e.g. evening transatlantic westbound) the on-time performance would be less critical. Otherwise, how to explain this: a large airport has fewer police/immigration/security personnel at this time of the day, and a very long line forms before getting to the boarding area. Since airline X flight is "boarding", and since this is my connecting flight, I evaluate the line to be 20-40 minutes long and I decide to ask an check-in agent for airline X if there is a way to make it quicker to the plane. The answer was, don't worry, there are 70 more like you. 10-15 minutes later (and 60% through the line), same question, and same answer. 5 minutes later, I ask again another agent for airline X who happens to be around... and now, he looks at my boarding pass, talks to his colleagues at the gate, and says "quick! they are waiting for you, I'll get you through security"... and he does, quite efficiently. So, maybe not everyone is concerned with on-time performance, but a big thanks to those who are!

[WHBM]

With regard to Stansted, over 60% of people who fly through are first timers at the airport, and most of them assume (wrongly) that once through the security they are at the gate, and have no idea that they have to get a train or a long walk to the gates (even though it is explained in great detail at check-in the many of the passengers do not speak or cannot understand basic english), hence the reason information screens can be changed to get people to the gate in the satellites.

Having said that the handling agents can change the screens, if they do not they change automatically at certain times before the departure time, so even if the aircraft has not arrived and the handling aents do not intervine the screens will change to "Final Call" at approximatley 20 mins before the departure time.

Though never assume just because you can't see your aircraft that it's not there, aircraft can be parked remotley and you could be bussed to it, also aircraft changes can be done which would not neccesarily corolate with what you think is happening.

Tranceaddict:

I think I (and several others) are a few steps ahead of you here.

Stansted is no longer a "first-timers" airport. If you look at the early morning weekday flights to Scotland say you will find them fairly full of those of us in business suits paying over £200 return (so Ray and M O'L obviously know we are not first-timers !). We are quite capable of getting ourselves through the many complexities of life and that includes getting to the airport departure gate on time. If we were first-timers we would probably not even know what the term "final call" even meant.

The handling agents appear to never intervene in the automatic displays. At a recent delay there where our inbound aircraft went tech on arrival it was still shown as "boarding" two hours after scheduled departure time as we were directed to the next flight.

BTW, The distance to the gate has never, ever, been explained to me, or to anyone else in my earshot, at check-in there. Actually it doesn't take that long; what loses time there is the security queue due to unmanned security stations.

[PAXboy]

what loses time there is the security queue due to unmanned security stations. What??? Are you saying that a BAA facility regularly operates with some security postions not operational?? And yet still takes all the money that it can get from the PAX??? Gosh, I'm sure that must be a one-time problem and you won't experience it again. :=

--------------------
"I tell you, we are here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you any different." Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.

[Tranceaddict]

Stansted is no longer a "first-timers" airport. If you look at the early morning weekday flights to Scotland say you will find them fairly full of those of us in business suits paying over £200 return (so Ray and M O'L obviously know we are not first-timers !). We are quite capable of getting ourselves through the many complexities of life and that includes getting to the airport departure gate on time. If we were first-timers we would probably not even know what the term "final call" even meant.

This would not appear to be the case judging by the amount of very very simple and stupid questions asked on a daily basis ie which way to departures? When your standing under a sign the size of a football pitch that says "departures".

Also the amount of passengers who are late to gates with the explanation, "We've never been to Stansted before and we didn't realise it was so far to the gates" seems to double on a daily basis.

Whilst I agree that many of the Monday morning set are indeed seasoned travellers with at least half a brain cell and can manage to navigate large buildings without help, the majority cannot, and need all the help they can get, I'm sure many people would complain if after boarding they were made to wait ages for the "late" passengers because handling agents didn't bother to make calls or expalin to them where to go.

It's a difficult problem to overcome, and of course if they started to change the system now, and put announcments and calls out exactly when they should do the Monday morning brigade would find themselves missing more flights, thinking they still had plenty of time, as they always make the calls far too early :O :O

[TexasUK]

Just for the record, 3 friends didn't make the plane from Malaga last year and their bags were not removed. I know because I had to take them home with me from Stanstead.
One of the friends was being detained by 8 policemen as well (a real illness, not some anti-social nutcase drunk or something) so you would have thought it would have been prudent for those who didn't know him to have removed his bag, but they just shrugged their shoulders...

[Final 3 Greens]

This would not appear to be the case judging by the amount of very very simple and stupid questions asked on a daily basis This epitomises the attitude at STN that has persuaded me to take my business to LCY.

Bunch of :mad: staff who think they are gods gift, because they can insult the paying public by referring to their legitimate questions as stupid.

What a customer service ethic - not.

[pzu]

Immediately POST 9/11

Problem boarding KLMuk from AMS to MME - had lost mislaid flight coupon & Boarding Card

Still held used ticket, but snotty KLM female wouldn't/couldn't process replacement in time to board flight

Tried saying bag was on flight - was emphatically told that it would be offloaded!!!

Some E30 later (admin charge) caught next flight to MME, went to collect Bag & surprise not there!!!

Went to commence Tracking/Claim procedure, and wonder of wonders bag already in the office!!!

This despite assurances given above, and fact that routing of bag had been

KRT - CAI - AMS - MME

Still waiting for an acknowledgement, never mind a reply from KLM


PZU - Out of Africa

Haven't flown KLM since!!!

[Tranceaddict]

Just for the record, 3 friends didn't make the plane from Malaga last year and their bags were not removed. I know because I had to take them home with me from Stanstead.

Pressume you were flying Malaga-Stansted then, can't coment on what happens in other countrys, and I'm not saying the system is 100%, but by law any passenger that does not travel SHOULD have their baggage removed as well, it's as plain and simple as that.

This epitomises the attitude at STN that has persuaded me to take my business to LCY.

Bunch of staff who think they are gods gift, because they can insult the paying public by referring to their legitimate questions as stupid.

What a customer service ethic - not.

People who can't read basic signs, or even interpret symbols (such as men and women pictures for toilets, and aeroplanes for guess what, getting to the aeroplanes etc) shouldn't be allowed to fly in the first place, imagine an incident on board and the crew asked them to follow basic instructions, would you want to be sitting next to them while their small brains tried to figure out the "would you mind leaving now sir" command from the cabin crew, whilst the flames licked around you, god help us if they had to open an over-wing exit!

[Final 3 Greens]

Tranceaddict

Words fail me in responding to your stunning arrogance.

The air travel sector is a SERVICE business - have you ever considered that you might be in the wrong job?

[419]

People who can't read basic signs, or even interpret symbols

So, are you saying that foreigners who can't understand English, dyslexic people etc, shouldn't be allowed to fly.

There are probably still a lot of people passing through our airports, that have never flown before, and for some of them, it's bound to be a very daunting experience.

Tranceaddict. Have you ever been through an airport in an Arabic country, with no signs in English, and usually no symbols. If you can't read Arabic, it can be very difficult to work out where to go.
Some of the questions you might have to ask would probably be considered stupid by the local staff.

[WHBM]

Well just like F3G here I try and use LCY instead of STN where possible, and I have commented here on PPRuNe in the past on the difference in attitude of the staff between the two airports. I am afraid I don't see anything in this discussion above to make me regret that decision.

[Tranceaddict]

Have I mentioned anywhere in any of my posts that I am not polite, courteous or helpful when asked these stupid questions?

Personally I always help any passenger who is in need of assistance (whether they ask or not) without patronising them or sarcasm, after 15 years of the same questions it does tend to wear you down, but I still answer with a friendly smile and wish them a pleasant journey.

Please don’t assume that all of us at STN are un-helpful people who don’t care about the industry we are in, believe me if I didn’t like it I would have got out years ago

Tranceaddict. Have you ever been through an airport in an Arabic country, with no signs in English, and usually no symbols. If you can't read Arabic, it can be very difficult to work out where to go.

No I haven't, but if I was going to I would research first (most airports have websites with maps etc) or even try and get a baasic understanding of words that may be helpful (exit, departurtes, security , check-in etc). Maybe thats from my scouting days and the motto "be prepared"

So, are you saying that foreigners who can't understand English, dyslexic people etc, shouldn't be allowed to fly

Can these people not understand symbols then! I would activley encourage everybody to fly, they pay my wages, I just wish people would prepare more if they have never done it before (I belive this to be true about anything in life, preperation prevents :mad: poor performance) as my old economics teacher use to say.

[419]

Personally I always help any passenger who is in need of assistance (whether they ask or not) without patronising them or sarcasm
when asked these stupid questions

So, you know the answer, and someone else does not, therefore you think it is a stupid question. I would say that that sort of attitude is patronising (def. treating somebody as if he or she is less intelligent or knowledgeable than yourself.) in the extreme.

If this is your attitude to customer service, it might be an idea to visit the local job centre, and look for a different job.

[ATNotts]

I was at Stansted on Monday awaiting an AB departure to Nürnberg, and was amazed by how many flights on just that pier were delayed by one or two PAX who couldn't make it to the gate in time, and in one case, couldn't stay awake long enough to get on their aircraft!

The staff seemed more than patient waiting for the errant passengers.

I do however feel very sorry for foreign (that is non native English speakers) using the airport, since there are absolutely no announcements made in anything other than english, the pronounciation of some destinations is dreadfull, and a lot of the announcements make no gramatical sence in english - e.g. "a last and final call"??

At the other end, in Nürnberg, all announcements are made in German and very good english! What's wrong with us?

[Irish Steve]

At the other end, in Nürnberg, all announcements are made in German and very good english! What's wrong with us?

Can't speak for STN, but for DUB, and they share at least one well known LoCo operator, most of the gate staff would probably be happier giving the flight departure announcements in Latvian rather than English, and with the quality of the PA in the A pier, it probably wouldn't make much difference :E :E :E

[Flip Flop Flyer]

Why have PA calls for boarding at all? Some airports are known to work quite well without them (CPH and AMS), thank you very much, whereas airports that should work probably, but don't, have them (LHR and FRA) on constantly. It only takes a few minutes of exposure to the constant waffling over the PA system for most of us to grow numb.

If passengers are unable to read a boarding card, and check the phalanx of screens availble for updates, the probably shouldn't be let out in public unsupervised.

I especially hate FRA, where the calls are made by a digitized voice. LHR? Oh please, spare me the agony of having to listen to yet another "This is the last and final call for BA flight 123 with service to Scumville. Will the last remaining passengers please present themselves to gate 567 without any delay." shortly followed by "Passengers X, Y and Z, please proceed immediately to gate 567 for BA flight 123 with service to Scumville. Failure to present yourselves immediatly will result in you and your baggage being off-loaded from this service". Again, and again and a-bluudy-gain!

Nah, give me a "silent airport" anyday, and if the public is too dim to understand they have to be at a specific point at a specific time, then off-load their bags and proceed without said dimwits.

PS
AMS and CPH does have calls for missing passengers, but that is a tiny fraction of the number of calls they could have made had they followed the "lead" from LHR/FRA etc. Boarding calls is soo 80s ;)

[Tranceaddict]

Nah, give me a "silent airport" anyday, and if the public is too dim to understand they have to be at a specific point at a specific time, then off-load their bags and proceed without said dimwits.

well said :ok:

[Irish Steve]

Pax arrives at airport.

Check in, probably automated, and takes bags through security with them, where they are comprehensively screened and checked in the presence of the passenger.

Passenger takes bags to departure area.

At a predetermined time before departure, boarding area for the flight opens, and passenger passes through one way gate into boarding area, and hands bags over to staff for loading. Once in this area, there is no way back out again to airside, and it would need to have creature comforts like toilets, but that's about all that's needed 90%+ of the time.

At appropriate time not long after, flight boards and leaves without hassle, as any passenger that wasn't at the gate didn't board, and their bags didn't get into the aircraft.

Ok, it need a little refining to deal with larger aircraft that are bulk loaded, but I reckon it could make life a hell of a sight easier for all concerned, especially given the hassles with dishonest loaders, (and yes, they do exist, I worked for 3 years with some, including managers), crap internal airport systems, mis sorted bags, and all the other things that are raised here so often, and this way, many of the hassles of missing passengers, bags not loaded, and the like, suddenly are not an issue any more in the same way.

Other refinements are needed to cope with aircraft that goes tech after loading, or anything else that messes up the plan after the passengers are in the final departure lounge area.

OK, the airports will hate it, because the travelling public won't have as long to spend their hard earned cash in all the places that have been carefully designed to fleece as much as possible out of them.

Positive side is that flights should leave on time, without many of the hassles that happen now. The airlines should love it.

Discuss.....................................

[PAXboy]

I have often thought that the old design of airport, that the airlines take the bags from you when you arrive and get them to the plane, ought to be replaced by YOU get them to the plane.

If trolleys could go through any area (and we know they can be used on escalators) then - in the boarding lounge - the bags get scanned and sent down the chute to the a/c or to the place where they are loading containers. This would also help to ensure that heavy hand luggage goes down the chute!

OK, some will say that you will have to have more staff to load containers and a/c at all gates but you would save the staff handling (mishandling) and you would save the hyper expensive baggage handling system and pax would soon learn that schlepping a heavy bag around might not be such a good idea.

[Maude Charlee]

I'm sure one of the US lo-cos already has a similar system in place where pax deliver their hold bags at the aircraft. Anybody missing the flight clearly then has no bags in the hold and no need to delay the a/c departure whilst a baggage offload takes place.

Could easily work in this country, especially with most of the lo-co domestic flights as the majority of pax travel with hand luggage only. Average baggage load for most dom routes out of my local airport is 50% or less of the pax load.

[MonarchA330]

Irish steve,
How is this going to get ppl to the gate on time tho? A number of pax will still turn up just before the A/C is due to push, leaving the handlers with very little time to get a lot of bags on board. Add to this that their bags may have to go into separate bins on a larger A/C, they would have to leave all bins out until the last pax had arrived - then load all bins into A/C.
Add to this the MASSIVE queues at security, I really don't thik it would work at all.

[ATNotts]

My memory may be playing tricks, but I seem to recall the Illyushin 86 was designed so that passengers could carry out their hold luggage and stow it (or have it stowed) before they boarded.

I agree, if that helps eliminate those selfish passengers who seem to have no idea of what is a reasonable amount of carry-on baggage from trying to take fully laden Samsonites into the cabin, then it's a really good idea!

[PAXboy]

If a new terminal was designed around pax moving their own bags, then the space needed would be there. All the space used by the exisiting automated systems would not be needed. This would save space and money.

Pax are told to get to the gate and enter the area from which they cannot leave, other than evacuation. Their bags go directly down to be loaded from here. If pax arrive late - they do not board and still have their bags with them. The departure time could be published as being earlier than it is, just like today's schedules.

I'm not sure why MA330 thinks that you cannot load ANY bins until the last pax arrives?

However, this will never happen. The airports will not like this because they make more money out of selling high priced junk to pax waiting for departure. Especially when there are delays.

[Globaliser]

Two other difficulties with the idea:- You would need to have a second security screening at the boarding area just before boarding, to ensure that items that are safe for checked baggage but not safe for cabin baggage are not in fact going into the cabin. This is not impossible to do - some airports already effectively do this - but the first security screening is bound to take much longer if pax are still attached to their checked baggage as well as their cabin baggage.

Amongst the facilities that could not be accessed after handing over checked baggage would be airline lounges. As the "gate closure time" under this model would have to be much earlier than it currently is, this would be a major blow to the profitable premium class traffic on which the industry largely depends. And the costs of providing parking space at the lounges for all lounge dwellers' checked baggage would be astronomical.

[Irish Steve]

A number of pax will still turn up just before the A/C is due to push

and will be unable to get into the departure area, as it will have closed at depart -20, so that all the necessary work, loading etc can be completed and the flight depart on time. I don't see that as unreasonable.

OK, in a very small number of cases, this isn't going to work, but there are very few flights these days where there are split bins, so loading them is still possible. Why do the premium lounges suffer, apart for the last 10 minutes or so. OK, so the pax keep their bags with them. the space saving at most airports would be huge, and operating cost a lot lower, there's no need for bag movement systems, and a lot less ramp vehicles needed to move things long distances.

If the arrivals level was split, then collection of bags could be at the gate too, which would make other aspects of the operation a lot simpler as well.

[Memetic]

and pax would soon learn that schlepping a heavy bag around might not be such a good idea.

I have said this before on here, an effective way to make us pax reduce the weight of baggage hauled around would be to weigh passengers and thier luggage at check in. Make it attactive by rebating "unused" allowance as frequent flyer miles - or carbon tax credits!

I'd also like to see have duty free ordering in the terminal with delivery at destination - which gives you something to collect while you wait for your luggage to show up!

[Globaliser]

Irish Steve: OK, so the pax keep their bags with them. the space saving at most airports would be huge, and operating cost a lot lower, there's no need for bag movement systems, and a lot less ramp vehicles needed to move things long distances. I think the space saving is illusory - you shift the space needs from one area to another. The amount of space needed by a passenger pushing a trolley for the entire time up to boarding is rather greater than a passenger who only has cabin baggage. Shops would need to adapt as well - much lower density if everyone has trolleys.

And that's quite apart from the massive changes that would be needed to the premium lounges to fit everyone's checked baggage in.

[PAXboy]

Globes: "but the first security screening is bound to take much longer if pax are still attached to their checked baggage as well as their cabin baggage."

I was suggesting that ALL screening take place at the gate. Folks can carry what they want and get screened once and the hold/cabin split happens there and then.

The problems of adopting this way of handling bags would mean that it could only be done with a new build terminal. I can see that bag handling space would not all be saved.

Memetic: I agree! A fantastic idea to get credits for unused weight.

[Globaliser]

PAXboy: I was suggesting that ALL screening take place at the gate. Folks can carry what they want and get screened once and the hold/cabin split happens there and then.But Irish Steve was suggesting:-Check in, probably automated, and takes bags through security with them, where they are comprehensively screened and checked in the presence of the passenger.

Passenger takes bags to departure area. If hold baggage is not screened before the gate, then massive investment in gate-by-gate explosives screening for checked baggage would be needed, as opposed to the centralised machines available under the conventional system. Though I'm not sure how airports like TXL do it under current arrangements - maybe the juxtaposition of check-in desk and gate sin bin is slightly misleading in relation to the flow of checked baggage after it's been checked in.